The guy who plays Anakin Skywalker reminds me of him, in is features and some of his expressions.
I find it slightly hard to tell between the two. I can definitely relate to him in the irrational sense but not in the rational sense.Originally Posted by aixelsyd
of course MJ was EIE
i thought he was a benchmark?
all though i think IEI is possible... reagardless, he's definitely beta NF
but like JuJu says... the whole "crowd manipulation" (i think thats a good way of paraphrasing what he said?) inclines me to EIE
anyway, according to Riso and Hudson, he's 4-- probably 4w3
so... thats like Gilly, supposedly.
just saying.
xD
"If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann
I see him as IEI based on those home videos..... his body posture and energy is a lot like mine.
He had Peter Pan Syndrome like I do, and easily got others to take care of him. I can see him funnily acting like a little faggy kid when somebody asks him to do something he doesn't want to do. He has that beta-esque celebrity independent spirit vibe going on that is appealing to me. He was able to do like esoteric dreamy non-practical stuff while his agents and people that worked for him took care of all the practical crap. Sounds a lot like me. I like to write stories about other worlds, for inspiration, and I think I'm too good to vacuum a floor. It seems waaay below me.
He also has a kind of fierce, very powerful energy deep inside. Like a deep assertiveness that is hidden behind a positive demeanor. That is very much like IEIs, because underneath it all we are just SLEs.
It's below me too
John Lennon is Ti ENTp. Not sure about Jacksons type, but INFp I wouldnt throw out the window. I can see ENFj-Ni too, but IMO he is too introverted for that.
his introverted shyness could be a ploy
seems like it might be to me...
he seems to be trying to hide his arrogance/vanity
but you catch tints of it in his eyes/voice when he speaks.
at least, to me it seems so.
but, IEI seems more and more probable as we discuss it on here.
also, along with that sort of image he tries to project, it seems like he tries to manipulate a bit... which may be more EIE-like, but that's not a very reliable point to support him being that type... really, an IEI could be manipulative as well, and even more probably seem like a confident EIE with the lifestyle of Jackson-- with lots of cash... or at least, lots of power to get what he wants. (i say this because i'm pretty sure he was really in debt? at least thats what i hear, and it would make sense)
*shrug* maybe he puts on his "EIE charm" to get what he wants, if he was in debt... i mean how the fuck did he get all that shit if he was 4 million dollars in debt or wahtever? charm, right? connections? people, etc...
so there. thats my 2-cents
"If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann
PRO-EIE for Jackson
Another thing; the fact that Jackson even seemed to have that sort of different "persona" on stage different from off it, sort of suggests EIE to me... As a whole, isn't that an EIE thing? The "characters" they create and play. Like whats his name... Freddy Mercury... Salvador Dali.
"If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann
pluie... you sum up my reasoning for MJ = Ni-EIE well in the above two posts... I think a lot of MJ was "act," down to that Marilyn Monroe little-girl whisper... (If you hear him really talk, it's totally different.)
You either don't know John Lennon well or don't know Model A Socionics well. He's a benchmark Ni-EIE.
Ti-ENTp is the traditional Socionix typing of him, and it is as dead wrong now as it ever was. (Here's why: there's nothing at all Si-valuing about John Lennon... Or Ne... At all... I refer you to all the lyrics he's written, his two books, and the definitive bio ny Norman.)
The lyrics to "In My Life" (Beatles) is FeNi... Not to mention "Julia," "Dear Prudence," "Revolution" etc. They're all FeNi... Everything about them... There's no Ne or Ti--according to ou, his base functions--in these lyrics... Please read the lyrics to any of Lennon's solo material and you will realize that any typing other than ENFj macht keinen Sinn.
Lennon's wife--and supposed soul-mate--Yoko Ono is Se-ISTj.
Same argument for John Lennon as Michael Jackson... Musician with a God complex... "just a boy/trying to change the whole wide-world" to quote the lyrics from the song "Isolation," from Plastic Ono Band.) Pretty similar sentiment to "Man in the Mirror," and "Imagine" = "Heal the World."
And these are just lyrics! Please read about their personal lives as well... Their loves and values...
McCartney however is alpha... and that may be confusing you.
McCartney = Alpha SF Fe subtype ftw, probably SEI-Fe.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
First of all, "In my life" was written my paul mccartney, not john lennon. So if that's 'unmistakably FiNi', I'm a little confused. Second of all, there is nothing about Julia, Revolution, and Dear Prudence which proves Fe / Ni, and unless you want to get into specific detail about how that's true then I'm just discarding your opinion as quackery. (Nevermind that you chose the 3 most suitable songs for your argument out of the near hundred songs John wrote). Musician with a God complex does not = EIE. Wanting to change the world does not = EIE. Hidden Agenda Fe can serve that purpose in an actualized ENTp. John didn't set out to change the world. He was trying to make the best music he could. He found himself in an overwhelming position of power by near accident. So he had all this power and influence over people in the world, and he put it to good use. That's not EIE, that's just trying to do something good. As for Johns books, the whole book is Ne. I've read the damn thing. It's all puns, jokes, and witty commentary.. That's all it is. John and Yoko weren't duals, and they were about to get divorced. Have you ever seen them together? That's not duality, she's fucking oppressive. John and his original wife were duals, and she is ISFp. They broke up. Duals can break up. Nonduals can get married. Paul is an ISFp. This makes Paul and John duals. That makes sense. If you listen to the music and think about that, it makes even more sense. Now if anyone thinks John is EIE and not ILE, I suggest they go youtube some videos of him interviewing. He's nothing like you, he's nothing like Gilly, he's nothing like Michael Stipe of REM; he has the unmistakable ENTp wit written all over him.. That is all. Do not reply to this unless you have something new to say.
Last edited by crazedrat; 06-29-2009 at 06:27 AM.
Whenever I watched his interviews, I have always thought that we are the same type.
please do some research before writing things like above... a quick google search even... "in my life" was what john lennon considered to be his first complete song, lyrically. (I wish ppl on this forum would research before they write... It would really help... i can't tell whether you actually believe what you write or you're straight-up lying to ppl to save face.)
it seems like your idea of john lennon is what's skewed in this case, not so much your Socionics conceptions.
As re: Michael Jackson, the story becomes more tragic with every press release... Very sad to read.
Last edited by JuJu; 06-29-2009 at 04:39 PM.
eunice is beta NF, isn't she/he?
---
i just re-read crazedrat's post and keep thinking that the problem with our Socionics community may not be with the theory itself, (as I'd been thinking,) but the ppl's understanding of themselves and others... i mean, a few quick google searches would correct the errors of fact (e.g."in my life" was written by paul mccartney is just a factual error on crazedrat's part--and thus easy to correct with a google search etc,) but how, for example, do we correct errors of perception..? (Should we even take the time to do so..?)
What is the best possible way to say, "no, what you've perceived is incorrect as re: Socionics," and then to help others to learn what's correct..?
I'm asking genuinely... I mean, there has to be a way to get everyone on the same page...
How can we get this community on the same page?? (Once we do, I believe we will start making rapid breakthroughs. There are some smart ppl here.)
I'm hoping that most ppl reading this will come to see Michael Jackson--and although the thread's not about him, John Lennon's been mentioned--as benchmark Beta NF... And we can build from there.
You can't force people to see the world the same way. That would just be boringConflict makes things interesting, and it forces people to reassess and reinforce their own beliefs with closer thinking and research. That's what makes the world go round.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
well, i was referring to the tendency, but yes, you're right. it's not the strongest point; it isn't the only point that matters when trying to figure out jackson's type. i'd say it was slightly type related though, because i WAS referring to a tendency-- not a fact. it isn't a fact that Fe types are the only ones that go through transformations, but they probably are more likely. even if they are amongst actors of low Fe.
but.... i agree it isn't reliable in that it was an undeveloped and therefore weak point, not taking into consideration that anyone can undergo a transformation... because the process of change is more reliable in comparison. but it's not as easy to observe the process anyway, when Jackson's a celebrity.
To clarify:
the meaning of the word "transformation" may throw off what i'm trying to say here... so i will say this xD -
well, first of all.... i don't think i ever in the last two posts referred to MJ going through a transformation, per say... but you using that word could just be a light-hearted way of paraphrasing; SO... When i say transformation, i refer to the "show" MJ put on... trying to appear with a certain type of personality. (the "type" i refer to is not socionics-related.) he might have went through a transformation, but what i refer to is his intentional act... not the experiences that lead him to seeming like a different person or whatever. i refer to his acting.
Last edited by pluie; 06-29-2009 at 09:20 PM. Reason: CLARIFICATION
"If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann
Maybe a separate thread could be dedicated to this?-- If you haven't already done it/thought of that.
^_^ ftw!You can't force people to see the world the same way. That would just be boring
I think these points are what socionics is sort of all about... Different understandings and perspectives--basically different ways of thinking... is in my eyes, the same as having one's own personal language.
Conflict may be the only way to make progress; it's just a very slow process.
I mean, a thread could be formed... and people could consciously make the effort to speak with words that allow everyone to understand what they are saying without misunderstandings... but that's a very difficult process, I think.
It makes more sense to let the "common ground" of socionics we are looking for unravel naturally-- via conflict and people explaining things and throwing ideas and thoughts out there the way they are comfortable. When people just be themselves basically... it will lead to conflict, but also to development; Development of communication skills overall, and slow but sure molding of an agreement on perspectives of what socionics is/how it works, etc.
"If you can find out little melodies for yourself on the piano it is all very well. But if they come of themselves when you are not at the piano, then you have still greater reason to rejoice; for then the inner sense of music is astir in you. The fingers must make what the head wills, not vice versa."- Robert Schumann
Lennon and McCartney argue over who wrote the song. Lennon says he wrote it, McCartney says he revamped the whole thing and basically wrote the whole melody and rewrote the lyrics. It sounds like a McCartney song to me, but I will admit there is controversy over the topic. From wikipedia:
Lennon found [the original version of the song he wrote] to be "ridiculous", calling it "the most boring sort of 'What I Did On My Holidays Bus Trip' song";[4] he reworked the words with Paul McCartney, replacing the specific memories with a generalized meditation on his past. "Very few lines" of the original version remained in the finished song.[3] According to Lennon's friend and biographer Peter Shotton, the lines "Some [friends] are dead and some are living/In my life I've loved them all" referred to Stuart Sutcliffe (who died in 1962) and to Shotton.[2]
According to Lennon, McCartney supplied harmony and the "middle eight" or bridge section of the song.[5] The section to which Lennon referred is unclear, as the song does not contain a recognizable bridge aside from a brief instrumental break. McCartney claimed he set Lennon's lyrics to music from beginning to end, claiming that he wrote the whole melody but took inspiration from songs by Smokey Robinson and The Miracles.[6]" I liked 'In My Life'. Those were words that John wrote and I wrote the tune to it. That was a great one."[7] Of the disagreement, McCartney said, "I find it very gratifying that out of everything we wrote, we only appear to disagree over two songs",[6] the other being "Eleanor Rigby".[8]
JuJu, I want you to do something. Continue posting as you normally do, but for all the hollow narcissism you put in your posts; subtract that, and just leave the actual content of what you're saying. I do not enjoy having to wade through your imaginary self affirmations when reading your posts. It is better if you just keep those thoughts to yourself. I expect not to see anymore of this from you. K thx
Last edited by crazedrat; 06-29-2009 at 10:30 PM.
Jackson was infantile to the point, beyond the point, of the pathetic. He was literally screaming out for a caregiver to take care of him. Can you imagine him with a beta ST Se aggressor?There was not a whiff of Se valuing in him.
INFj and Delta for MJ.
INFp
If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)
LOL... You quote McCartney himself, saying Lennon wrote the lyrics to it (my point) and... what exactly are you arguing now..?
I'm fine with you believing whatever you'd like... That's up to you... I've enjoyed your posts in the past and that's why I'm responding, hoping to bring you round to the correct understanding of this issue... But if you want to persist in holding whatever opinion for whatever reason, that's fine... (You could say ****** was ISTp, for example... You'd be wrong... As you were here... Why shuldn't I call you on that?)
This is the part where you say, "ah JuJu, I see what you mean about why you think John Lennon's Sociotype is Ni-ENFj... You cited various info... I'm sorry for talking out of my ass in that first post..." And we all go on with life.
Wittmont, I believe that the word "infantile" might be confusing you here... Certainly, Michael Jackson acted child-like, e.g. all that Peter Pan, Neverland stuff... However, if you listen to him speak about why he does so, his reasons are almost archetypically "victim." (Ever heard the album "HIStory? It's perhaps the most confrontationally 'victim' album I've ever heard... Specifically, the lyrics to the song "Childhood," which describe his reasons for acting so childlike... They are flippant challenges to the 'adult world' that 'made' him--not playful 'I'm just wanna make you giggle' infantile behavior.) His aggressive crotch-grabbing... His increasingly angry albums... This is all victim behavior, which does not compute with infantile behavior.
Im suggesting that you consider what both words--"infantile" and "victim" mean in a Socionics sense--and then, after digging deeper into this case, apply what you consider... And I believe you will come to a better understanding of the terms, and this particular case, (i.e. M. Jackson as beta NF.)
Throughout his life, MJ surrounded himself with beta ST aggressors... His best friends... His two ex-wives --Lisa-Marie Presley and Debbie Rowe--were both Beta ST aggressors.
According to Christopher Anderson's book, (a trashy bio I read years ago,) MJ was fascinated by all things related to the Mafia--filming two videos in that style, "Smooth Criminal," and "You Rock My World..." Fascinated by all things perverse and strange (Howard Hughes, for example.) None of this speaks to Delta values... However, it speaks to beta values.
Last edited by JuJu; 06-29-2009 at 11:35 PM.
When I think of a song I don't really think of the lyrics, I think of the melody. To me the melody is much more meaningful than the lyrics. The melody of 'in my life' is a mccartney melody. As for you 'proving your point'- no.. that hasn't happened. All we've done is established that the melody of 'in my life' was written by Paul and the lyrics are written by John. We have said nothing about how these lyrics prove John is ENFj. Again you fill your post with meaningless self affirmations. If you think you can cut a conversation short, throw in some jabs, and somehow wind up in the power position .. well, maybe that works for your ego and your mind. It doesn't work for reality, or other people. If you do it again I'm not going to reply to you at all, because it annoys me. I really don't like narcissists. Maybe it's because I am one. Either way, pull your shit again and you won't get a reply. If you want to make a proper reply, discuss how the lyrics of these songs actually suggest ENFj. Address the points I made about Johns book being filled with Ne, discuss where in his interviews on youtube you see ENFj.. Because all I see is ENTp. Discuss why Yoko is his dual beyond simply the fact they were married; because that's the depth of your point, and that point is shallow. Give a reason or two you think Paul and John weren't duals, because to me they behave alot more like duals; as well as Johns first wife, who is ISFp. There are plenty of real points you can make here.. points that have substance. But you've made none of them. K, that is all
Have to weigh in with the ENTP assessment of Lennon ... sorta easy enough to recognize one when when you are one. Doesn't seem at all like Michael Jackson... how this type of connection can be made is beyond me.
Paul McCartney is ISFP (i've seen enough of his quirky interviews to convince me this is true) making him and Lennon duals. In this situation they'd be working seamlessly enough to make any argument about who wrote what moot.
From memory i'll have to go with ESFP for Yoko. Super-ego to Lennon ... Similar temperaments, life rhythms etc. but far from duals.
ILE
Hmm, ok Lisa-Marie definitely comes off as a beta ST (or ISTp caregiver maybe), not so certain about Rowe at all, she seems more LSE to me (caregiver). If both are beta STs then I do think there is little doubt MJ belongs in beta.
(Tbh I just happen to have a very strong aversion to MJ for some reason, instinctively never liked him - so probably I am biased, guess I have some kind of shadow reaction to him ... :/. It's not like I hate his guts and want to punch his nose or anything tho.)
A few questions:
How on earth is crotch grabbing victim behaviour?
I checked the Childhood lyrics. Can you expand on what makes them victim? How is idealizing childhood victim specific?
How are "things perverse and strange" associated with beta values?
Hmm, Jackson could even be ENFp.
Infantile
- Can be openly childlike/dreamer/detached or more formal looking with an "inner child"
- Has lots of needs and can be selfish (like a child) and expects
the partner to totally adapt to this behaviour
- Can be openly needy for loving and care
- On the other hand can be openly rebellious against care and
need a lot of "right kind of" attention
- Doesn't want the partner to directly control but instead set loose
"boundaries" and safe guards within which it is safe to play and have fun
- Hates signs of aggression or indifferency in others
- Has "I want you to be my friend and guardian angel" attitude
All of the bolded seems very MJ to me...
Victim
- Can project either a submissive or arrogant view of themselves
- The openly submissive version never questions the partners
control but expects the partner to "show the way" in all aspects
of the relationship or interaction
- The arrogant version looks aggressive and always challenges people
but the true meaning of this behaviour is to find an aggressor who
is stronger than the victim themself. This type can never be "tamed"
but the partner has to "apply force" at all times to keep the
arrogant victim under control
- Hates signs of weakness in others
- Has "I want you to control me (if you can)" attitude
I am definitely open to having MJ in beta, but he does come off as infantile to me over victim.
INFp
If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)
funny, i was reading this article and thinking she came off as kind of ST-ish.
Michael Jackson's life-long confidante J. Randy Taraborrelli: 'I saw in his eyes he was dying' | Mail Online
6w5 sx
model Φ: -+0
sloan - rcuei
The Daily Swarm - Read The First Chapter of On Michael Jackson By Margo Jefferson...
An excerpt
Edit: It pretty much doesn't get any more Beta than that.Every mind is a clutter of memories, images, inventions and age-old repetitions. It can be a ghetto, too, if a ghetto is a sealed-off, confined place. Or a sanctuary, where one is free to dream and think whatever one wants. For most of us it’s both—and a lot more complicated. A ghetto can be a place of vitality; a sanctuary can become a prison. Michael Jackson escaped the ghetto of Gary, Indiana, and built the sanctuary of Neverland. It’s become a circuslike prison, emblematic of the mind of Michael Jackson.
...
Let’s begin our tour.
Phineas T. Barnum? A model for Michael. The ringmaster of American entertainment. Fantasy, fakery and touches of uplift. No one knew better than Barnum how to thrill audiences, give them raw sensation and a stirring, not especially accurate education. Barnum’s first spectacular success came in 1835, when he bought the rights to exhibit an ex-slave named Joice Heth at his Connecticut theater. Servitude had left her a near cripple; the showman saw promise in those gnarled limbs and stooped shoulders. Barnum put her in a clean gown and a fresh white cap, sat her down and introduced eager crowds to the 161-year-old nurse of George Washington. “To use her own language when speaking of the illustrious Father of his Country, ‘she raised him,’ ” his advertisements proclaimed.
When Heth died the next year, Barnum ordered a public autopsy. An unexpectedly honest doctor revealed that, far from being born in 1674, Heth was no more than eighty years old. Barnum professed astonishment. He’d been conned by Heth and her ex-master, he declared. Then his business partner upped the ante and declared that Barnum had found Heth on a plantation and trained her himself to pass for Washington’s nurse. The public enjoyed both tales, and Barnum enjoyed spreading both tales. People wanted to believe and know they’d be conned, as long as they didn’t know when or how.
...
Michael Jackson read Barnum’s autobiography fervently (at least one of the eight versions) and gave copies to all his staff, telling them, “I want my career to be the greatest show on earth.” So he became both producer and product. The impresario of himself. Who among us can’t recall at least one of the stunts that followed: Michael sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber like a handsome young pharaoh in his tomb or the lovely Snow White in her glass casket? He was obsessed with the Elephant Man; he claimed he saw the movie thirty-five times, never once without weeping all the way through! He made repeated attempts, offered millions of dollars, to buy the bones from The British Museum. He appeared in public wearing a surgical mask: he could have been the doctor in an old horror film, looming over the evil or tragic man about to have his identity and destiny changed forever. Then we see him without the mask, onstage, at an awards ceremony, in court, and realize he has been that man for a long time.
He became a one-man conglomerate with global reach: his own records and videos; the Beatles’ catalog; Pepsi commercials; world tours. He was transnational. He reenacted his supremacy in video after video. “If you wanna be my baby / don’t matter if you’re black or white.” If you want to dance with me, don’t matter if you’re Indian, Russian, African or Native American. You can morph into anything (pudgy Eskimo into buff, white American lad with straight, honey-blond hair; American lad into slim, brown-skinned lass with dark brown frizzy hair); you can be any age, race or gender. Global idealism is at one with global marketing. If you want to buy my records, don’t matter who, what or where you are.
INFj
9w1 sp/sx
Heh, so megalomania and devious marketing tricks are exclusively Beta traits? There are LOADS of ENFp's working in marketing, and that is for a reason.... (Ne base/imagination)
INFp
If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)
Yeah, Lisa-Marie is ISTj (and really f'n hot)
Obviously, this guy was way over-blown in almost every way (no little boy jokes...) All of the questions directed at me to explain about Michael Jackson/John Lennon, (except Wittmont's, addressed below,) can be answered by quick google searches...
But the bottom line is Michael Jackson spent a lot of his adult life rebelling... Against his father, against the leeches who controlled him his entire life, against the media...
Wittmont: think about how Michael Jackson utterly abused his body, weighing 110 lbs at death, stomach full of nothing but painkillers--that = Si POLr, and not Si seeking... (I have a Si POLr too--hopefully i can control it better.) Exhibited extremely forceful and purposeful emotions in everything he did, from speaking, to singing, to dancing, to videos, to lyrics, to his 'controlling' of the media (releasing, e.g. the hyperbaric chamber photo to the media to increase his reputation for strangeness)--that is FeNi, and not NeFi... Think of his fascination with all ppl powerful and "bad," or "dangerous"--that is Se HA... In other words, it's a pretty slam dunk case for beta NF... In this paragraph, we've covered EVERY beta value... Not to mention that his wives were Se ego.
In Michael Jackson, (and John Lennon, if one's willing to investigate the truth of his life and not just the 'legend'--obviously, ppl here cling to whatever bullshit though,) all of these beta values are exacerbated, exaggerated, and pushed to to the nth...
Now think of an ENFp's values... (What tereg posted was great at proving this by the way... Michael's attention to Fe and Ni--manipulation of outward emotions via study of an historical entertainer= FeNi.) If delta, where's MJ's Te/Si agenda..? Seems like a lot of ppl here are attributing Ni to Ne, and Se agenda to Si agenda, as re: Michael Jackson and John Lennon--and I don't have time right now, nor the inclination to explain the nuances or the differences between Ne and Ni, or Fe or Fi. or Se agenda or Si agenda...
I will however say that Wikisocion is a great resource for learning... And these things will become evident with more and more study.
Wittmont, note the FeNi in the following... The 'challenging' victim mentality as well (i.e. Se driven...) Beta than you, so to speak:
...and on and on...
i wish i could help you guys see this, but i'm beginning to realize that i ccan't.
Last edited by JuJu; 06-30-2009 at 11:53 PM.
I'm sorry but any Se Michael has is super lightweight and harmless and childish. However I see a lot of Fi complaints in his texts and the overall feel of his videos and music and texts is an overwhelming Si smoothness.
I have no problem whatsoever putting Michael down as an EIE and in beta if you can show me exactly where you see all this Se and the beta values. But to me he feels way too lightweight to be a hardhitting beta, but that can of course be part of his severe neurosis and complexes.
Usher is probably SLE but super-ego friendships are hardly uncommon are they and especially since Usher is a huge fan of MJ's.
I'm sorry but MJ still feels way too Fi, too Si, too non Se, above all too Infantile, for me to be convinced by opinions and superficial likeness of EIE. I am also still not convinced Presley is LSI, as I said, if the people around him really were beta ST's then I can see EIE for him as I doubt he would chose to be around his conflictors etc.
INFp
If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)
No, nor was I inferring that only betas are in marketing. That would be naive to suggest such a thing. What I'm saying is that the methodology of how Michael Jackson wanted to influence others and be recognized (which was influenced by the tactics used by PT Barnum) is imo stronglyvaluing.
I'm not saying that Michael Jackson was a megalomaniac therefore he is Beta. What I'm saying is that the processing in which he wanted to accomplish recognition and reach as many people as he could is Beta valuing.
Edit: And do not misunderstand me, I'm not saying that wanting to be recognized and reaching as many people as possible is Beta. It is the underlying process of how he wanted to achieve that that makes it Beta.
INFj
9w1 sp/sx
Theof Michael Jackson I believe was more focused on his desire and drive he had to spread his influence and impact around the world. No, he wasn't the most domineering personality. But
He was a living example of how he used
INFj
9w1 sp/sx
I was wondering today...
Could michael jackson be an SEI.
Or is that out of the question?
His softness is typical for SEI.
I hope I don't make things more difficult now :-)
Wow, good question... Alpha certainly works better than Delta... SEI is not out of the question. (It's probably the 3rd best option IMO.)
What's troubling about MJ as SEI is Si base vs. Si POLr... It would be very strange for a SEI to be "eating one meager meal a day... weighing 110 lbs at death, stomach full of nothing but painkillers..." Lack of awareness of Si seems to have been a trend in Michael's life. (For example, if Si base--do the serial plastic surgeries make sense?? the garish military clothing?? the fantastic lifestyle?)
From what I've read, Michael was a hypochondriac, with very little Si awareness.
Wittmont... tereg makes very good points, and explains them better than I do... Seeking to expand influence/to be wealthy in the way quoted, etc, in Socionics, is Se agenda... Reading your posts, it seems to me that you might be confusing base Se (e.g. SLE, LSI, SEE, ESI,) with Se seeking... The two come across very differently. It seems to me that you may be expecting Michael's Se seeking to look like, e.g. Marlon Bando's Se (SLE, one of Michael's best friends btw.) It doesn't...
My Se seeking does not come across like Brando's--rather like Michael's--in the choices I make, the ppl I associate with, the goals I have.
You ask to know where we see the beta values..? Please re-read the posts in this thread... There are examples on examples... (I am sorry if I haven't connected the dots--but the dots are there to connect.)
If you cannot see FeNi (even potentially) in what tereg posted about Michael/Barnum, or Fe in Michael's videos/lyrics, I'm not sure that further discussion will be profitable.
P.S. To address some Socionics problems in your last post:
Betas aren't always "hard-hitting..." That is a misconception, propagated by ppl on this forum who haven't learned Socionics fully... All beta is, is: Fe, Ni, Se, and Ti... There are plenty of betas--of each of the beta Sociotypes--who act/are 'soft.'
This quote speaks to where you need to push past stereotypes in your understanding of Socionics... It seems like your definitions of what is "Fi," "Si," (it's not 'smoothness,' as there are plenty of beta's I'm sure you'd classify as 'smooth' too,) "non Se," (i.e. what Se seeking is,) and what "infantile" is and is not... (If you ever have sex with an infantile, you'll know what I'm talkin about... It's pretty damned evident... They act like babies and it is off-putting.. ugh, i just got a terrible image in my head... wow... regardless:.)
It's not about how Michael Jackson feels to you, whether you personally like him/his music or not... (There is a lot of beta music I don't like... The band 311 for example, to me, sucks... It's just hippie garbage... But it's beta--it's still Se, Ni, Ti, and Fe, in other words.) It's about whether he exhibits the beta functions.
Your difficulty seeing MJ as beta may be complicated by the fact that you and MJ are obviously opposite subtypes, (you = beta accepting, MJ = beta producing.)
Please read this article if you are interested in Michael Jackson's type... Very insightful...
Michael Jackson's life-long confidante J. Randy Taraborrelli: 'I saw in his eyes he was dying' | Mail Online
In particular re: Beta NF ... This is how a beta NF lectures ppl about Fe ethics:
In May 1994, I was the first to report that Michael had married Lisa Marie Presley. It seemed a far-fetched union, he from Neverland, she from Graceland. Not a lot of people took it seriously.
Even I was guilty of being sarcastic about it. ‘They’ve registered their wedding list at Toys R Us,’ I quipped — a joke about Michael’s penchant for childhood things.
I thought it was pretty funny. Michael was not amused. He called me immediately after the broadcast. ‘How dare you make fun of my marriage?’ he said, angrily.
He didn’t really sound at all like the whispery character of his public persona.
In real life, his voice was stronger, more bold. ‘Maybe you have never been in love,’ he lectured me. ‘Because if you had, you wouldn’t ridicule another person’s relationship.’
I apologised and told him that it was just a joke.
‘But it was cruel, and I’ve never known you to be cruel,’ he said. Of course, I felt terrible. He knew it, too.
‘OK, don’t feel so bad,’ he said, now much softer. ‘We all make mistakes.’
---
re: Victim:
Meanwhile, Lisa was realising that her mission to save Michael was not going to be easy. She was amazed by his emotional repression and felt he was resisting her efforts to help. Perhaps, she pondered, he rather enjoyed wallowing in his own pain, playing the victim.
He was 'like a young boy, angry at the world', one of her friends noted, and his self-pity became a strain on the relationship.
---
re: Se seeking / via Fe manipulating
But for all his apparent paranoia about protecting his privacy, Jackson was as much of a show-off as he was a recluse.
As for the whole Wacko Jacko image, that was less an invention of the media than of his own - until it spiralled beyond a joke and beyond his control.
To begin with, though, it was carefully nurtured to boost his career. He understood that to sell records he needed to stay in the public eye.
He was an instinctive showman when it came to self-promotion. When filming a commercial for Pepsi-Cola surrounded by smoke and pyrotechnics, a magnesium flash bomb exploded close to his head.
Aides covered his blazing hair with a blanket and ice, and prepared to hustle him out of the back door to an ambulance. But for once Jackson insisted on using the front door, in full view of fans and photographers. He sensed an opportunity.
That night, footage was shown across the world of the stricken star, bandaged and in agony, being rushed to hospital - but managing to raise a sequin-gloved hand in a weak salute. In publicity terms, its value was beyond measure.
For a while, this strategy of selfpromotion was brilliantly successful as Jackson convinced himself that he could manipulate his image and control how he was portrayed.
Throughout the Eighties, he dreamt up bizarre stunts and stories that were leaked to the Press.
One favourite ploy was to use outlandish disguises on conspicuously extravagant shopping trips. Once, he popped into a Los Angeles chemist's in an Afro wig and dark glasses, and asked to buy a sex toy. It was hardly a surprise when the story made all the newspapers.
He also told the world that he slept in an oxygen chamber that would enable him to live to be 150. It was a complete fiction, but word of Michael's latest wacky exploit spread round the globe, helping to sell more records on the way.
But the danger of this drive for self-promotion was that it became open season for any invented story. Reports appeared that he had seen John Lennon's ghost and was speaking chimp language to his pet ape Bubbles.
Since he refused to give any interviews in an effort to maintain his inscrutability, the stories spread without contradiction or explanation.
Jackson's carefully nurtured image spun out of his control. He became a victim of the weird mythology he had set out to create.
---
And God-bless-betas, LOL:
'The only time he had any fun was when people came over to play in his million- dollar amusement arcade. But they had to let Michael win most of the time. If they didn't, they weren't asked again.'
---
all of the above by J. Randy Taborelli, Jackson's friend for 40 yrs
Last edited by JuJu; 07-01-2009 at 05:55 PM.
For once, I agree with Juju ... that MJ is BETA but not EIE.
I've recently watched and read quite a few things about him, interviews and the like and I'm here to say that I'm nearly certain that he is an IEI-Fe.
Poor thing. =[ I relate so much to him in some of his interviews that it's heartbreaking to me because it's like feeling the pain he was going through inside myself. The things he's been through with his lost childhood, his grade A asshole of a father, the scrutiny of the public media. Jeez - who wouldn't break the fuck down mentally in some way or another?
Lowawareness is extremely evident ... it seems like everything he spent money on arose from the conglomeration of fantasies unfulfilled he had in his mind. The Neverland ranch, the animals... so lonely, so lonely.
He reminds me of so many male IEIs I know, in so many different ways. Gosh, I never knew how horrible it can be to see an identical/quadra member just self-destruct in such a way as he did because you really, truly, can empathize better than with any other type.
A good case can be made for both Fe-IEI and Ni-EIE ... The case for Fe-IEI would center on his shyness... The case for Ni_EIE would center on his choice of companions, (nearly all LSIs--brooke shields, tatum o'neal, and lisa-marie presley are all LSIs... even the 13 yr old boy he was accuse of molesting, and acquitted, in 2005, was LSI... not sure about debbie rowe.)
i'm about 50/50% on it at this point... It could go either way... I'm tempted to see him as Ni-EIE, but maybe it's more for empathetic reasons
INFP
Starfall--good call..!
It's fascinating to me that almost all of Michael Jackson's close associates are betas... (Liz Taylor, Se-SEE, the only real exception.)
IMO, Debbie Rowe seems SLE.Did you see that 2003 interview with her? And I saw a recent clip where she was in the camera guy's face, cussing him out. But yeah I could see either EIE or IEI for MJ.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Hahaha yea! I saw it the other night... She's great... I'd marry her too... And I think you're right about her being SLE.IMO, Debbie Rowe seems SLE.
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