Socionics Ne

[pianosinger]

I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding the socionics descriptions of Ne that I've come across (which is bad, since it's supposed to be my creative function). I thought I understood it pretty well in MBTI terms, though. Are they pretty much the same in both systems? Are there any differences I should be aware of?

Thanks.

[Skeptic]

Yeh, at the very least there would be different in socionics because there is a lot of emphasis on intertype relations and Ne has been to some extent shaped to meet the interactions of the different types (i.e. Ne is slightly defined by its interaction and relation to both Se and Si). If there is some particular aspect of the description you are interested in exploring (like Se/Si socioncs ~ MBTI difference) I'm sure we could help you if you made a more specific request.

If you're looking specifically for all diferences, I'm not a familiar with MBTI so I'm afraid that's the only difference I'm aware of.

[pianosinger]

Okay, my understanding of the characteristics of Ne in MBTI are:

"brainstorming"
using one's imagination.
open-minded consideration of ideas.

gtg.

[Ave]

in socionics sounds more like considering different options, exploring new possibilities, being excited by new possibilities even if you havent exhausted the old ones etc.

[Azeroffs]

If I remember right, MBTI Ne is about idea generation. Socionics Ne is about seeing the essence of things or seeing how things could be or have the capacity to become. Basically seeing things for what they are not. So Ne types tend to look at the world idealistically and with a sense of curiosity like there's always something unknown out there to be found. Of course, that's more the case with Ne-base. Ne-creative tend to be more analytical and look for hidden patterns and come to understand them thoroughly. Basically Ne-types are just never satisfied with taking something as it appears to be, but they can sometimes fail to see the simplicity of things.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Ooh I like this topic.

Nes will doll out suggestions, whereas Nis will absorb the 'purity' of the essence. Generally speaking, Ni is critical whereas Ne is constructive. Deltas are very 'active' in the real world, and like to give out advice, because it's like they're always seeing themselves as helpful. Betas naturally study their own shadows more, and are less likely to be outwardly helpful unless pushed or shoved. (usually by a delta trying to change them)

Nis want to 'go deeper into something' and pierce down an issue, but Ne is more like 'you should try this instead.'

(this is all purely true, but you have a lot of variations depending on where Ne and Ni is in your psyche) Ni is very pure, (Ni types more prone to put a 'pretty bow on things) and Ne-valuers suffer from doing the opposite, being too varied and seeing too many things at once. (they are more scattered and bipolar about what they want in life)

[golden]

Betas naturally study their own shadows more, and are less likely to be outwardly helpful unless pushed or shoved. (usually by a delta trying to change them)

Haha, that's awesome. *weeps bitter tears and laughs at same time*

[Azeroffs]

Ooh I like this topic.

lol, I thought that was funny, but all-in-all pretty accurate.

[Beautiful sky]

Ne is ideas; NeTi sees how ideas fit into systems; INFj's can produce ideas, possibilities, branch like thinking and coupled with Ni demonstrating can see how events can develop in time. Forgot, Ne observes patterns of behavior as well; not just behavior, but patterns of everything.

[pianosinger]

in socionics sounds more like considering different options, exploring new possibilities, being excited by new possibilities even if you havent exhausted the old ones etc.

I think this is part of MBTI Ne descriptions, too...I ran out of time earlier writing my first post...

MBTI Ne is also concerned with patterns, I think...

MBTI Ni is all about finding hidden possibilities; waiting for that "aha!" moment; combining elements to generate an emergent new idea that hadn't occurred before...It is also concerned with symbols and interpreting meaning. Ni users often find they have a hard time explaining their ideas to others, and how they came to their conclusions, as they often can hardly even explain it to themselves.

[Beautiful sky]

I think this is part of MBTI Ne descriptions, too...I ran out of time earlier writing my first post...

MBTI Ne is also concerned with patterns, I think...

MBTI Ni is all about finding hidden possibilities; waiting for that "aha!" moment; combining elements to generate an emergent new idea that hadn't occurred before...It is also concerned with symbols and interpreting meaning. Ni users often find they have a hard time explaining their ideas to others, and how they came to their conclusions, as they often can hardly even explain it to themselves.

They are mostly very similar to one another, the problem is that many people which to be a certain type and ignore the information that they actually produce. Like, they don't look back and read what they write. common thing in human nature.

[Aiss]

The problem with MBTI Ni and socionics is that the former is often described as giving a sense of certainty, assurance, thought process as a series of a-ha moment realizations which make everything clear. Socionically, is more about uncertainty, about how things change - it's more fluent than , in a way, continuous, concerned with a flow of events or associations. Many descriptions of Ni I've met with in MBTI forums sound more static, as if it was limited to a result, a final state. For me, the difference is huge between the two, though they aren't simply reversed.

Another way of looking at it could be as possible states and as possible paths of development. The former is more concerned with possible outcomes and the latter with their probability or making it happen.

One more thing to consider is thinking styles. A lot of thought processes descriptions in MBTI resemble thinking styles, which are shared by types with no ego function in common - so they won't do as descriptions of elements. For example most of the INTP thinking descriptions I found accurate resembled dialectical-algorithmic thinking style (used by , , , - it's one of Gulenko's theories) - but in MBTI, they were rather explained as Ti (direct causation) and Ne (branching, parallelism).

[Gilly]

Ne is the "study" of discreet bodies/objects in terms of their potential, seeing the essence or defining factors of a "thing" as mostly essential and conceptual in nature, and seeing the possibilities for changing them given this assumption.

[pianosinger]

Ne is the "study" of discreet bodies/objects in terms of their potential, seeing the essence or defining factors of a "thing" as mostly essential and conceptual in nature, and seeing the possibilities for changing them given this assumption.

So, for example?...I have a scarf in my lap. Most essentially, it is made of some soft silk-like fabric; it has polka-dots; about 20"x20"; light and airy...It's usually used as an accessory in a woman's outfit, but I can see many other possible uses: my son can wear it as a "cape" and pretend to be a superhero; add a couple more of them and one could juggle; they would be fun for a small child to throw into the air and then watch as it gently falls; I could tie it around my waist, or use it a headdress, or wear it around my neck; I could play "peek-a-boo" with the baby; it could be used in a magic trick...In other words, a scarf is much more versatile than it first appears.

See, I just don't know that I understand the description...See the bolded above. How can I possibly change the essential nature of a thing? Sure, I can change its potential, I change its usage, but...changing its nature eludes me. Am I misunderstanding something?

[Gilly]

So, for example?...I have a scarf in my lap. Most essentially, it is made of some soft silk-like fabric; it has polka-dots; about 20"x20"; light and airy...It's usually used as an accessory in a woman's outfit, but I can see many other possible uses: my son can wear it as a "cape" and pretend to be a superhero; add a couple more of them and one could juggle; they would be fun for a small child to throw into the air and then watch as it gently falls; I could tie it around my waist, or use it a headdress, or wear it around my neck; I could play "peek-a-boo" with the baby; it could be used in a magic trick...In other words, a scarf is much more versatile than it first appears.

See, I just don't know that I understand the description...See the bolded above. How can I possibly change the essential nature of a thing? Sure, I can change its potential, I change its usage, but...changing its nature eludes me. Am I misunderstanding something?

What you're talking about is more Se: assessing something's being in terms of its intrinsic physical qualities, and using this as the basis for extrapolating it's "abilities," if you will.

Se assesses in terms of physical actualization and concrete existence; Ne assesses in terms of theoretical actualization or basic abstract nature. A similar relevant example would be knowing what a scarf is and what the scarf is supposed to do (its abstract properties, as opposed to its concrete ones), and modifying its design it to better suit its intended purpose.

Se/Ni tend to see physical qualities as permanent but conceptual properties as malleable (static sensing vs. dynamic intuition) whereas Ne/Si see conceptual qualities as permanent but physical properties as malleable (static intuition vs. dynamic sensing).

[pianosinger]

Se/Ni tend to see physical qualities as permanent but conceptual properties as malleable (static sensing vs. dynamic intuition) whereas Ne/Si see conceptual qualities as permanent but physical properties as malleable (static intuition vs. dynamic sensing).

Okay...So, I'm thinking of a bell. Its conceptual properties are...that it rings? I mean, it's pretty much a given that a bell rings, right? But the rest of it...size, shape, color, pitch, tone...that's all malleable. You can have a hundred bells and each one different, but the one thing they will all have in common is that there is something inside them that, when hit on something else, will produce a ring. That would be Ne/Si?

Then how would one illustrate Se/Ni? That one's more difficult for me to understand...Using the bell illustration again, I'll see if I can figure it out...Say I have a particular bell. Its physical (static) properties are that it is small enough to fit in my hand, it's silver in color, and it has a push-button to make it ring; and when it rings, its tone is soft and high-pitched. Conceptually, though...what? Would Ni then seek to change the nature of the bell? To use it for some other purpose than it was intended? Like, maybe it could be used as a paperweight; or thrown at someone's head in self-defense, in which case it would become a weapon. But even if it's used for these purposes, that doesn't change the fact that it was a bell, and can be a bell again at a moment's notice (unless of course it's melted down and fashioned into something completely different, like a doorknob).

[Gilly]

Yeah, you've pretty much got it.

[Jarno]

I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding the socionics descriptions of Ne that I've come across (which is bad, since it's supposed to be my creative function). I thought I understood it pretty well in MBTI terms, though. Are they pretty much the same in both systems? Are there any differences I should be aware of?

Thanks.

When it comes to functions it's best to completely ignore MBTI. They've got a bug for introverts anyways, which is insolvable.

[Azeroffs]

@Gilly

How then would that manifest into characteristics we generally associate with the types?

[Skeptic]

Ooh I like this topic.

Nes will doll out suggestions, whereas Nis will absorb the 'purity' of the essence. Generally speaking, Ni is critical whereas Ne is constructive. Deltas are very 'active' in the real world, and like to give out advice, because it's like they're always seeing themselves as helpful. Betas naturally study their own shadows more, and are less likely to be outwardly helpful unless pushed or shoved. (usually by a delta trying to change them)

Nis want to 'go deeper into something' and pierce down an issue, but Ne is more like 'you should try this instead.'

(this is all purely true, but you have a lot of variations depending on where Ne and Ni is in your psyche) Ni is very pure, (Ni types more prone to put a 'pretty bow on things) and Ne-valuers suffer from doing the opposite, being too varied and seeing too many things at once. (they are more scattered and bipolar about what they want in life)

Could you please elaborate on the bolded? I am interested in understanding what purity of essence means as well as the eagerness of deltas to change betas. I am also unsure of what you mean by Ne's relationship to bipolarity and scatteredness when it comes to what 'one wants out of life'.

[carrina]

Okay...So, I'm thinking of a bell. Its conceptual properties are...that it rings? I mean, it's pretty much a given that a bell rings, right? But the rest of it...size, shape, color, pitch, tone...that's all malleable. You can have a hundred bells and each one different, but the one thing they will all have in common is that there is something inside them that, when hit on something else, will produce a ring. That would be Ne/Si?

Then how would one illustrate Se/Ni? That one's more difficult for me to understand...Using the bell illustration again, I'll see if I can figure it out...Say I have a particular bell. Its physical (static) properties are that it is small enough to fit in my hand, it's silver in color, and it has a push-button to make it ring; and when it rings, its tone is soft and high-pitched. Conceptually, though...what? Would Ni then seek to change the nature of the bell? To use it for some other purpose than it was intended? Like, maybe it could be used as a paperweight; or thrown at someone's head in self-defense, in which case it would become a weapon. But even if it's used for these purposes, that doesn't change the fact that it was a bell, and can be a bell again at a moment's notice (unless of course it's melted down and fashioned into something completely different, like a doorknob).

Your first example and second example are both se-ni.
Am example of ne: the conceptual properties of a bell is that you use it to alarm people. So if you come up with new ways to alarm people with a stuffed bell that doesn't ring, that would be using ne.

Ni wouldn't seek to change the nature of the bell. It would use it for its intended purposes. Or as you said, it's physical properties would be used in a different way.

[Satan]

[anndelise]

One aspect of for me is that it's keen on generating new knowledge, unproven yet potential knowledge, and applying it. This knowledge doesn't have to be interesting or clever, it just has to be unconventional. My ILE friend and I demonstrate this by making up funny little stories on the fly by trying possibilities on as real facts and seeing what happens, in their imaginary development. It's humorous. Ne-ego physicists demonstrate it by reaching bold new assumptions no one else would find reason to jump to as brainstorming hypotheses, and because of Ne's sheer intuitive capability, it often lands on something useful. ie. Nikola Tesla and Albert Einstein, ILEs. An emphasis on usefulness is a large difference between Ne ego vs just Ne valuing.

I would add that for IEE, at least, it's not so much an _intent_ to brainstorm/generate new ideas as much as various ideas that might fit just start popping up naturally.

[Jeremy8419]

Ne and Ni are both based on Time at their core.
Given an object, person, or group of people treated as a whole, it/they contain certain sets of properties; i.e., what set of data, information, physical properties are available to select from. Each point that exists within a data set can be independently chosen or placed into a subset. In example, a General Store contains multiple different items that are available to choose from.
So, how does this relate to time? Given the object, the choice of which internal property or subset to choose affects how time will be affected from this point onwards. The same applies when expanding outward. What is "my day" other than an object? Of all the available properties of "my day," I may select any property or set of properties to choose, and subsequently affect how time transpires. Back to the General Store, I could buy plates, cake, and a stereo, and I have a part for "my day." I could buy a hammer, some nails, balloons, some wood, and some darts, and build myself a dart balloon popping game in the backyard for "my day." So, the General Store has the potential to offer me to do a multitude of things in "my day," but does not contain the same potential that a Pet Store would. Within "my day," which store I go to, or if I go to a store at all or just lay in bed, is the potential of my day. Each choice we make is one of potentials.
When utilizing Ne, energy is exerted to receive information back on the specific potentials available. For instance, if I Ne an SLI, and say, "we could go to an amusement park today." What am I really doing besides making an information request to see if the SLI has "likes amusement parks" in his potential? If I say to myself, "I could go to the amusement park, the general store, or the pet store today," what am I really doing, besides making a request to myself for how much potentiality I have for each? If I am met in return with an internal "no" to all three, then I know the potential for such is not there, and I will likely lay on my couch all day. All Ne is an information request issued by energy exerting to determine potentials.
How does this relate to Ni? Well, given limitless potentials and possibilities available, the choice of potentials grants us a perception and comparison of how our futures will play out given what potential is chosen as our starting point. We could start from any available potential; however, each potential contains it's own future, which may not be the most conducive to the creation or choice of potentials in "our life." Surely, if I chose to have an expensive party every day for my friends, my potential in the distant future to have an expensive home would be diminished. In this fashion, Ni is a comparison of potentials, of Ne, between the past, present, and the future. What potential we have now, what potential we have in the future, and the same for others, objects, relationships, and society at large, and the lines connecting such... This is Time. This is Intuition.
Or... I could increase my Space, my Sensing, to expand my potentials available, if my current ones are too difficult to perceive... Hmmm...

[bumbleberry shortcake]

this is ten years later, but...you have unknowingly quelled much of my anxiety, thank you

[Alomoes]

I'll just drop quotes.

Ne is generally associated with the ability to recognize possibilities, create new opportunities and new beginnings, recognize talent and natural propensities in others, reconcile differing perspectives and viewpoints, rapidly generate ideas, and be led by one's intellectual curiosity and stimulate curiosity in others.

Types that value Ne prefer to try out an opportunity rather than consider all possible ways in which it could not work out. They pick a few options and stick with them, in contrast to introverted intuition Ni types who pick one option and continue to doubt that option.

They enjoy discussing unusual insights into the nature of the world and crazy out-there ideas, like space elevators. Typical Ne quadra humor juxtaposes seemingly unrelated phenomena.


So I'm likely to write a book about a topic, hate the topic, scrap the entire book, rewrite the book, think what I did was better before, and then eventually try and rewrite what I did before from memory. Ne is probably what my friend did when I told him that he should simply write his book. He decided to then start rhyming to me after I wrote a poem. I then was quite unamused at this, as he wasted about an hour doing this. I wrote a poem, which was not much better, but at least I have the poem. He then learned emojis exist, and played with that for a while. That's probably not Ni/Se. And also probably not Te/Fi. It could be Ne/Fi, but then I need to shuffle some people around. I already do, but I'm not worrying about it now.