How Enneagram Types Pay Attention

[Satan]

Did you post this because you relate to being an e8, but not to the entire drill "sergent" thing?

i posted it because it popped into my head

[Satan]

I'm not ranting, I'm trying to explain things.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like I am a better judge than you of my personality, as I've lived with myself longer than you have interacted with me on this forum. Therefore I feel like I'm in a good position to freely explain myself, rather than place confidence in a few disjointed observations you may have about me and who I am.

Also the idea of integration/disintegration and it being a problem -- I don't see the problem with that? It defeats the purpose of mindfulness? How does that follow? Can't a person be mindful and aware of a problem, you make it sound like anytime there is a problem the mind must immediate detach. That's not always the case, sometimes problems help focus the mind. If one where to consider self-development, then defining problems could be a useful way to proceed with this. The idea isn't to solve it all "out on paper" the idea is to have an awareness of some type of problem so that when one experiences stress it can be treated as a problem to be solved, which ultimately leads to a sense of completion or resolution, which alleviates the stress temporarily. Problem solving is a process, not an end result, so I don't see how your advice/criticism follows. I can easily be in the moment while perceiving a problem, and even if a problem isn't solved, it isn't the end of the world, because all a problem is, is a mental construct, it doesn't exist outside of one's own head.

There is that enough sentences to pass for the express lane?

what are you trying to say?

[Satan]

Yeah, I think it basically means the six is constantly preoccupied by worrying thoughts, even when doing something which is supposed to take your mind off of them.

well disengage the mind then.

[Shazaam]

I'd like to add that I think integration is incredibly objective. And I agree with Dolphin in the sense that you are just not objectively likeable when you act 'more like an 8.' In fact, other people would get more annoyed at you probably. However, somebody like Morcheeba, I can definitely see that happening with her. (acting more like an 8 and thus gaining the world's respect more)

As for disintegration not being negative ehhh I don't know. It seems very negative in the sense that it brings out our incredibly narcissistic qualities that everybody else doesn't like. And we're all not likeable some of the time, but this phenomenon varies incredibly based on the individual. I think the only difference between a celebrity and a 'normal person' is that the celebrity has worked on their shadow issues more, and so they are more likeable. Not that everybody should try to be a celebrity or anything, but it seems in this world that spanking our dark inner moppet is the way to grow. Or more like the integration is the realization we can get most of our own wants met without pissing everybody else off.

Self development doesn't have to involve a positive/negative dichotomy.

Well when you put it that way, yeah I agree and that's really inspiring to me! I think it also ties in what I just said, your Self is your Self but we all have sort of a responsibility to others- as that is the thing that the outside world judges us by. Ie our 'inner fag self' just wants to be loved and understood, but we all are constantly gauged by what we can do for others and how we can help them, not the other way around. (Which is the base reason why a lot of us suck in life and have a problem understanding why other people don't like us.) And so...developing ourselves, becomes not about being right or wrong but about just constantly checking the eternal darkness in each of us that we can't ever get completely rid of.

[Creepy-male]

Of course you know yourself better than anyone. You haven't connected yourself to being 5 in any meaningful way. Doesn't mean you aren't a 5, but I'm not inclined to believe you're a certain type when what I see is to the contrary. It's not personal.

Of course, but I prefer discussions to interrogations. I love discussing this sort of thing, but the moment I feel like I'm being interrogated by the spanish inquisition, then I'm done.

Yes, however, integration/disintegration are not problems, and should not be viewed as such.

I'll agree that integration/disintegration are not problems, they are simply what they are. But why should they not be viewed as such? You make it sound like something bad happens when somebody does this.

I did not say this. Mindfulness isn't necessarily detachment.

How about you flesh out exactly what mindfulness is then.

Self development doesn't have to involve a positive/negative dichotomy.

Of course it doesn't have to, but you're making it sound like it shouldn't -- which is a totally different concept.

Developing awareness of behavior/thought process/something and simply observing it leads to greater knowledge of the nature of the behavior/thought process/something, which can result in alternate ways of dealing with it without having to impose morality. The behavior/thought process/something is looked at in terms of practicality and usefulness rather than right/wrong. It's not for everyone, but I think it's a great alternative approach to people who may have a highly developed inner critic.

So are you trying to accuse me of doing something I "shouldn't" by attempting to impose morality

OR

Are you just trying to say you don't like viewing it as a problem because you and some other people have a highly developed inner critic and it helps you to not think of things in this way?

[Creepy-male]

And I agree with Dolphin in the sense that you are just not objectively likeable when you act 'more like an 8.' In fact, other people would get more annoyed at you probably.

Fair enough, but I'm skeptical about that. Not the being likeable as I move towards 8 part, but the idea that I'm not a "5". I relate very much to being an e5 and I feel like sometimes people overfocus on certain behavior on the forum rather than trying to get the big picture about an individual. So there-in I'm skeptical.

As for disintegration not being negative ehhh I don't know. It seems very negative in the sense that it brings out our incredibly narcissistic qualities that everybody else doesn't like.

Do you mean this in general or for yourself as a 6? 6's disintegrate towards 3 I believe.

[Aiss]

I don't really relate strongly to the e5 description; they make e5's sound really really pathetic, I feel like I naturally kind of shift to being more e8 for better or worse when I get too isolated, like I instinctively know where the direction of integration is or something.

The description makes it sound like the e5 just looses the will to live and becomes withdrawn to some pretty severe points, I don't really relate to that, although I do relate to the withdrawn nature of 5's and 4's a lot, I spend a lot of time by myself thinking or doing artistic things and it brings me a lot of joy/peace. I feel like in some ways the connection between e8 and e5 is very strong, like an e5 is the result of an e8 which goes inward into their mind. Both are "power-seeking" types, which I relate to.

Interesting.

Is it only the extreme examples given that put you off (living for years like a hermit etc.) or rather the description of the state of mind itself? How do you relate to the quoted parts?

I am periodically aware of being outside and watching ever since. It comes up when I have to "go onstage." Even if I'm rehearsed, I can suddenly find myself separated, watching my body going through the motions of what I'm supposed to do.

Besides providing a buffer to the immediate experience of a strong emotion, the habit of detaching from feelings in order to watch can produce a dramatic experience of what meditators recognize as the separation between the object of attention and the inner observer.

Meanwhile, I'm standing behind myself, like a third party to my conversations, watching the face of whom I'm talking to and myself, standing there in the dress.

(...) a Five gets frozen in the detached stance, compelled by habit to watch as a frightening event transpires, and constrained to keep attention separated from the feelings connected to what he or she sees. If the Observer merged with the feelings generated by the frightening event, Fives would lose the defense of keeping mind and emotions separate. The Five would then be vunerable to being affected by others and to feeling his or her own desires.

Fives report a sense of control and even pleasure in being able to detach from being affected by outside influence.
Some Fives say that they move deep inside themselves to where there is no emotion. Others say that they separate themselves from an intruder by moving behind a wall or a one-way mirror, or they shift attention to a safe place just outside of the interaction. From that vantage point they can observe what is going on without becoming emotionally involved.

[Creepy-male]

Interesting.

Is it only the extreme examples given that put you off (living for years like a hermit etc.) or rather the description of the state of mind itself?

It is the extreme examples that put me off, not the description of the state of mind. I find that if I managed that sort of state of mind by living as a hermit, I would feel lonely, and loneliness is not desirable, therefore it is that extreme example which puts me off, not the state of mind if managed properly.

I am periodically aware of being outside and watching ever since. It comes up when I have to "go onstage." Even if I'm rehearsed, I can suddenly find myself separated, watching my body going through the motions of what I'm supposed to do.

I relate to this, early in college I used to be a little bit anxious around large groups of people, I felt like most of my actions around people I was not comfortable with were programmed, I went through a period of social anxiety / isolation for 3 or so months where it was painfully hard to make eye contact with people while talking to them. Eventually I took great efforts to overcome this, as it was a low point, and manage my social life better, however still a lot of times I feel as though I socially engineer things too much, like I'm not in my skin and self-possessed but controlling myself from behind the scenes.

Trying to be "in the moment" is a major focus of my life, as I feel like I get too introspective and pay too much attention to the past or future to off-set my anxiety about the present.

Besides providing a buffer to the immediate experience of a strong emotion, the habit of detaching from feelings in order to watch can produce a dramatic experience of what meditators recognize as the separation between the object of attention and the inner observer.

This sort of? I don't know what they mean about a dramatic experience though. Detaching from strong emotion to me feels different, a lot of times I'll struggle to escape from a stressful situation and then process it later. If I can't escape I kind of just sit there in a zombified state for a while until my attention kicks back in, it kind of has a predator-prey vibe to it, like you waiting for the predator to walk by, while you remain silently watching, then once the predator finishes, you snap back into action.

Meanwhile, I'm standing behind myself, like a third party to my conversations, watching the face of whom I'm talking to and myself, standing there in the dress.

Not so much, I get this when I'm forcing uncomfortable conversations. If I'm genuinely interested I'm usually in the moment of the flow. It's hard for me not to detach when listening to a lecturer or public speaker.

(...)

a Five gets frozen in the detached stance, compelled by habit to watch as a frightening event transpires, and constrained to keep attention separated from the feelings connected to what he or she sees. If the Observer merged with the feelings generated by the frightening event, Fives would lose the defense of keeping mind and emotions separate. The Five would then be vunerable to being affected by others and to feeling his or her own desires.

See what I said above about escaping or being in a state of statis.

Fives report a sense of control and even pleasure in being able to detach from being affected by outside influence.
Some Fives say that they move deep inside themselves to where there is no emotion. Others say that they separate themselves from an intruder by moving behind a wall or a one-way mirror, or they shift attention to a safe place just outside of the interaction. From that vantage point they can observe what is going on without becoming emotionally involved.
[/INDENT]

Yes I relate to this, I enjoy being isolated from time to time because it alleviates anxiety. It feels like I can just relax and be myself, it usually goes on and on until a certain point is reached where the anxiety backfires when I become more aware of certain feelings of loneliness or need for connection with the outside world. This usually leads me to put more energy outward, but sometimes I have such bad experiences, I quickly rebound back to isolation, and there is a certain sense of failure I feel when that happens. I've noticed this state of "failure" can easily lead to obsessions about analyzing social problems, rather than staying focused on revitalizing my energy and trying again. Sometimes these obsessions yield insights into society, while other times they are massive time sinks which seek to feed a sort of self-sympathy that further alienates me.

[Roro]

Well, I am definitely most likely a 6. I've always kind of figured that, but this has also shown that I seem to have quite a bit of 9 in me. Those are the only two that really stand out, so I'm guessing my tri-type is 6-9-x or 9-6-x most likely.

How Nines Pay Attention

When Nines "go on automatic," they can complete complicated tasks without paying conscious attention to what their hands and bodies are doing. We all have the ability to learn skills and to perform them mechanically. For example, there is the common experience of "waking up" upon arriving home, with no recollection of having made the drive. There is also the example of speed typists, who report that they can fantasize or think about a problem, while turning out reams of accurate copy at 90 wpm.
The trick for the typists is to type without reading the material. They section off just enough attention to get the mechanics of the job done, while simultaneously ruminating about other things. This style of attention can be called coprocessing, a way of doing more than one mental operation at the same time.
Nines report that they dip in and out of conversations. A sector of their attention is mechanically focused on what is being said, but they can simultaneously coprocess another train of thought or feel themselves merging into what they suppose other people are feeling. Most Nines describe coprocessing as sliding from one object of attention to another. For example, a word in a conversation may trigger a memory, trigger an inner monologue about the memory, trigger feelings about how the present conversation is similar to the past.
These interior diversions go on while the Nine is still aware of how the conversation is developing. Like the motorist who arrived at home without a memory of having driven there, Nines can wake up to hear themselves give a passable reply, having forgotten the topic of conversation. Nines say that they tune their mental radio to two or three stations, slipping between classical, country, and rock 'n' roll.
A profound version of the ability to coprocess is described by some Meditators as having a mind full of pinwheels. In this version attention is simultaneously focused on several things at once, perhaps the carpet pattern, the buttons on a sleeve, a profound emotion, and a couple of trains of thought. A Nine who looks blanked out and inattentive to others may internally be laboring under the burden of too much to do.
Because Nines are asleep with respect to their own position, they do not habitually look for information that supports a strategic course of action. New situations can be perceived globally where all the elements are recognized and can be described, but one one thing stands out as particularly important or worthy of mention. This is in contrast to the perception of point Three which is focused on the elements in new situations that support particular tasks. It is also distinct from the perception of type Six, which is skewed toward the hidden interactions between people.
Nine is aware of all the surface elements and all the interactions under the surface, but finds it hard to pick out what is important and significant from the inessential details. Nines are aware of everything, but they find it difficult to identify the correct starting point or discriminate between the critical issues and the background noise. Attention circulates freely between what is essential in a situation and what is irrelevant to the central task. It is this habit of attention that perpetuates the loss of a personal position. How can one decide upon a meaningful position when everything seems to have equal importance? There is no sense of conflict, because nothing stands out as more important than anything else.

[FDG]

7s can barely get through primary school, but thank god university is easier than 3rd grade

[Creepy-pokeball]

I just thought public school was a social experiment on children, lol.

[Lotus]

I just thought public school was a social experiment on children, lol.

loll

[Jenna]

With this in mind, 2 blows 4 way out of the water for me

[Gilly]

3, 4, 8 fit the best. Definitely 3>all though; I identify more readily with the traits ascribed to 4 and 8, but the 3 thinking traits are more ingrained in me/beneath the surface. Reading the 8 thing about fake meditation was good though, that's what I used to do before I learned how to actually meditate.

[Wavebury]

well disengage the mind then.

Sleeping pills.

[Codie]

Good read thanks 4 posting this
Taking meditation, journaling and the food pyramid i've created, seriously, in 2012. i need to learn how to quiet my mind & take my focus off my critical thoughts, escapism & useless emotions to name a few.

[GuavaDrunk]

Emotions aren't useless but your reaction to them can be.

Good luck with that busy program.

[Codie]

Emotions aren't useless but your reaction to them can be.

true true

Good luck with that busy program.

[Eliza Thomason]

How Nines Pay Attention

When Nines "go on automatic," they can complete complicated tasks without paying conscious attention to what their hands and bodies are doing. We all have the ability to learn skills and to perform them mechanically. For example, there is the common experience of "waking up" upon arriving home, with no recollection of having made the drive. There is also the example of speed typists, who report that they can fantasize or think about a problem, while turning out reams of accurate copy at 90 wpm.
The trick for the typists is to type without reading the material. They section off just enough attention to get the mechanics of the job done, while simultaneously ruminating about other things. This style of attention can be called coprocessing, a way of doing more than one mental operation at the same time.
Nines report that they dip in and out of conversations. A sector of their attention is mechanically focused on what is being said, but they can simultaneously coprocess another train of thought or feel themselves merging into what they suppose other people are feeling. Most Nines describe coprocessing as sliding from one object of attention to another. For example, a word in a conversation may trigger a memory, trigger an inner monologue about the memory, trigger feelings about how the present conversation is similar to the past.
These interior diversions go on while the Nine is still aware of how the conversation is developing. Like the motorist who arrived at home without a memory of having driven there, Nines can wake up to hear themselves give a passable reply, having forgotten the topic of conversation. Nines say that they tune their mental radio to two or three stations, slipping between classical, country, and rock 'n' roll.
A profound version of the ability to coprocess is described by some Meditators as having a mind full of pinwheels. In this version attention is simultaneously focused on several things at once, perhaps the carpet pattern, the buttons on a sleeve, a profound emotion, and a couple of trains of thought. A Nine who looks blanked out and inattentive to others may internally be laboring under the burden of too much to do.
Because Nines are asleep with respect to their own position, they do not habitually look for information that supports a strategic course of action. New situations can be perceived globally where all the elements are recognized and can be described, but one one thing stands out as particularly important or worthy of mention. This is in contrast to the perception of point Three which is focused on the elements in new situations that support particular tasks. It is also distinct from the perception of type Six, which is skewed toward the hidden interactions between people.
Nine is aware of all the surface elements and all the interactions under the surface, but finds it hard to pick out what is important and significant from the inessential details. Nines are aware of everything, but they find it difficult to identify the correct starting point or discriminate between the critical issues and the background noise. Attention circulates freely between what is essential in a situation and what is irrelevant to the central task. It is this habit of attention that perpetuates the loss of a personal position. How can one decide upon a meaningful position when everything seems to have equal importance? There is no sense of conflict, because nothing stands out as more important than anything else.

I hope it is not against protocol to bring up old posts. I am reading old things.

I just think this is fascinating. Its how my SLI-9w1 thinks.... I actually saw this happening in our first meeting, last October, which was a hurried one, after many years of writing to each other. At the end of our short visit, which was a lot of intense conversation, while carrying on an animated conversation, he planned a little short intimate prayer time and hug that was so memorable that it took me by surprise, really touched me, and I suddenly really didn't want to leave. I had to though. Later when I could not stop thinking about it, I realized he must have planned it. But when? My short visit was a complete surprise, and we talked the whole time. I then remembered, right before he initiated this, while talking/listening, he was "looking about" as we talked, as if he had something else going on in his mind, though the conversation did not break. In retrospect I realized, he had been at that moment planning that special moment. I wondered at the time how he could "plan" something so short, touching, intimate yet appropriate, while conversing about something completely different? I just thought: well, he is different from me. Now this "attention" explanation explains it.

[DirectorAbbie]

thoughts and actions are automatically judged against an ideal standard of how perfect the situation could be. The internal terrain of a One's decision-making process carries the image of a courtroom scene. An opinion is mentally brought into court, where it is then attacked, defended, and finally judged for correctness.

Yes. But I don't judge myself against others. I judge everyone including myself "against an ideal standard of how perfect the situation could be" and we're a bunch of losers.

[Nevero]

This is very useful, thanks for posting this up @dolphin. I will have to give this a closer read when I am not as tired.

[Amber]

This was awesome. I identify with a combination of 5 and 6 from this pov. I could add some aspects of e1 and e8 (tho I've never thought I have anything in common with 1).

[Reficulris]

9 fits best for me, closely after follows 7. I had expectated 6 to fit more but my fears are less attention demanding and more "generalized".
5 did fit somewhat but much less than either 9 or 7 did.