How Enneagram Types Pay Attention

[blankblank]

I don't really relate to 5, even without considering that 4 and even 7 sound more like me. If it's really as good as people here say, I should probably consider it, but otherwise 5w4 (5-4-8) tends to fit me best, looking at core perception of the world and motivations. Then again, it doesn't consider wings, not that I think it would affect it as the base type is still be applicable.

I'm not sure how I feel about this approach, to be honest. It seems a lot like something that would be more strongly related to socionics than behavioural patterns which are why Ennneagram works to begin with.

Well, if it helps any, I didn't feel I related to the 6 description. I think some of what was said has to be thought of in a metaphorical or less extreme manner.

[Airman]

So 6s focus on danger, 2s focus on others, and 1s focus on perfection? Am I interpreting that right?

If I am, I'm a 6>2>1 for sure...

The other type descriptions either confuse me or make me realize I don't relate.

1s relate to perfection but the neurotic focus is called ORDER rather than perfection. it may also be DISORDER, because that´s what ones are trying to avoid, but their obsession is ORDER, like with 2s it´s 'OTHERS' and 6s 'DANGERS'.

For example it´s very difficult for me to live somewhere where people are messy with things and everything´s thrown around. My living spaces have total order to them, everything has its place and is clean, and everything is constantly being organized and cleaned to keep things in order. This focus on order brings a sense that things are not getting out of control, a certain safety that everything is going to be okay because everything is in order.

So if you want to mention the neurotic focus of each type:

6s focus on danger, 2s focus on others, and 1s focus on order.

[Airman]

So you're a strong type 1. Sucks2BU.

Well it sucks to be any type in the Enneagram, because each type has its downside. I don´t know what you mean by 'strong type 1'. Probably an ISTJ is a stronger type 1 than an ESTJ, because an ISTJ has Ti and Se in the egoblock. I find in my personal experience that Si in egoblock kind of eases a lot the tension and the anger of being an E1.

But then there´s also the question of Ti vs Te if you take an LSI E1 and an LSE E1... the LSI E1 is a strong one but cooler because of not having Te and having Ti on egoblock, as I stated before, I agree with Ashton´s and others´ position that Ti is somewhat 'cooler' than Te. BUT, perhaps more stubborn and physically more territorial than an LSE E1 because of Se. So this is relative and you cannot say that an LSE E1 is a stronger E1 than an LSI E1, which are the most common socionics types for an E1.

Another thing I noticed is that you say very directly 'it sucks 2BU', sorry but this is not in much conformity with an INFJ behavior. You should retype yourself in socionics if you want to be accurate and not delude yourself because you´re probably not an EII. INFJs don´t say things which may be offensive so bluntly except if they´re really in a bad mood and sad, but even then, what I see IRL with INFJs is they are rarely harsh on others with their words. They rather distance themselves or keep quiet than verbally say something really rude as 'it sucks to be you'.

[Airman]

btw I´ve been noticing IRL the IEs and I tend to agree with my 'socionics mentor' who introduced me to this, when he said: "all Introverted IEs are somewhat weaker than Extroverted IEs".

I think this is one good thing of living in a Latin culture which is Extroverted and places emphasis on Feeling. I can see how LSIs are cooler than LSEs for example... and Ti types in general tend to have a cooler thinking process. Whereas, if you know an anglo-saxon LSE for example, he´s likely to be much cooler and in some ways more easygoing than a southern european/latin LSE, which is more likely to erupt into rage outbursts more often and be more 'in your face' and confrontational. A week ago I met two swedish guys on vacation here in Rio and one of them was an LSE, and we were chatting for a long time, sort of 2 hours, about Sweden, Brazil and how people are diffferent. This guy was very much like me, but he seemed kind of cooler and more moderate in his opinions and also in how he expressed them even though he was clearly an ESTJ. This makes me think how racial and cultural background affects socionics types, which seems a very interesting study.

I´d like to meet an islamic arabic ESTJ...that must be interesting. The very fire of righteous anger and volcanic outbursts personified, but also probably the most 'do-good' ESTJ.

but as to the IEs:

for examples... is cooler than , is cooler than , is less impactant than , is less intense than .

I think that instead of cooler, 'less intense' could be a better word. What do you forum people think of this?

[Creepy-female]

Airborne, I think order may work for Ones, because it's a form of control. Self control. Though if others are in one's vicinity it bleeds onto them so the focus changes from internal to external to relieve some of the inner pressure. Ones do this sort of unconsciously I think.

Though it's hard for me to say with certainty because I think we all find aspects of ourselves or others or our environments to control because we don't feel in control in certain ways. I haven't thought of reasonable correlations that could be made with this tendency and type. I think perhaps the different ways of imposing order in our lives could point to type, however.

Sometimes when I'm feeling chaotic I make lists of what I've accomplished so I can see their weight in words. And I'll add things I did to the list even if it wasn't there before. As if the number of actions staring me in the face in blue could somehow add up to some kind of meaning.

Sometimes I order my environment neatly as a form of control. But most of the time I just leave it messy and feel distressed, and get off on feeling distressed because it's a form of pressure that might actually motivate me to do something. It's confusing because I don't want to be this way. My parents were sort of anal about environmental things and I'd always feel pressured to keep my environment a certain way but not up to the effort it actually took. So I'd leave it messy as a form of wanting to know if it was possible for it to stay that way. That they could live with my apparent "mistakes", if I could be trusted to "live in my own squalor" (that's what they think it means), or if they'd have the compulsion to clean it up themselves or force me to do something about it. It was kind of a test for them.

It's easy for me to go along with others when they compulsively think that certain actions equal being a bad person. But if you look for a certain kind of observation to confirm your original hypothesis, you're going to be biased. It makes more sense to me to have to have actual experience behind one's observations to see if they carry weight, instead of just having an emotional connection to them, because emotional connections can be forms of control. I react out of fear, instinctually, alternately cowering or jumping as the ultimatum is imposed.

It takes more strength to examine these compulsive thoughts calmly, instead of running away from them or conceding to the force of others opinions.

Sometimes you leave your bed unmade, or your clothes on the floor, or your papers in piles, and nothing happens. God doesn't shoot a lightning bold to fry you to a crisp. A person doesn't shout at you that you're a good for nothing.

There is a place where you can't shout me down anymore. And even if I feel the compulsion, I'm not going to cower anymore if people try to shout me down. It's just silly. That's not reasoning. It's not happening.

I already feel. If you trust me to feel, I will. But if it doesn't look like you're going to give me my own opinion peaceably, I'm going to act like I don't feel, and maybe I'll end up not feeling, because I can't respect being forced into things.

In my environment, I know where everything is. It's cluttered, but the clutter makes it feel lived in. It makes me feel as if humans lived between the walls instead of robots who felt they had to wipe the water droplets from the sink every time they washed their hands.

I like cleanliness, but not necessarily order. Order feels like too much of a suspended state.

I do want it though. It's just that it feels impossible. That there's no mercy to account for anything when other circumstances get in the way. There's no going to the root of the problem when your room is out of order. It really is impossible. What if they said "Are you ok? We love you no matter how you make things look externally."

Or "We know that when you make yourself look disgusting to us, that it's because you're frustrated because it seems like that's the only thing we're able to see, or feel about you, the only thing we care about."

Or "We know you think you're only worth it to us when you're maintaining some sort of orderly, "correct" lifestyle, and if you fail that, you're dead to us."

Or "We want you to feel like you can make your own choices. That you have control over your life."

It didn't happen, not at so close a range. It's easier now when they're farther away. But now it's like, there's no positivity attached to order. It's all slap on the hand motivations. Cringe, duck, look the other way, suppress yourself. Wait it out. I see it all in terms of power violations. When I start to view life as something that is my choice, things start to look different. And it can be scary, because acknowledging that is responsibility. And sometimes I'm not sure what my actions are beyond some imposition/rebelling dichotomy. I want to be able to discard that but I keep slipping back into it.

[Creepy-female]

Don't make the mistake of being too prescriptive in trying to assign one word descriptions to these types. They are meant to convey a feeling, a mindset. "Perfection", isolated as a concept, floating off in space, doesn't really mean much; it can be applied to basically anything.

You'll have to be able to observe the patterns your thoughts and perceptions take, and assign the single word after that. There's nothing wrong with summary, but an accurate summary depends upon its subject matter. What it's made of. If you take your unsurety and use that as the foundation upon which to take a word designed to encompass an actual concept, a real thing, you're going to be screwed.

That's why I don't think it's very useful to ask for the opinions of people who hardly know you to base your self typing upon. Or rely on their opinions. You're not doing anything for yourself perception wise if you don't have any of your own reasoning.

If you're able to practice the inner observer thing for the least bit, you'll probably be able to determine your type with certainty. It isn't actually that hard. But it does take some effort, on your part, and no one else's.

I wanted to help people, but now I think I'm tired, and the nice feeling of appreciation is starting to be small in light of how I'm arguing away and no one gets it, no one's responding in some like manner, no one's contributing their insight.

"Woe is me, for my father has told the king I can spin straw into gold with only a simple spinning wheel!"

"If you do not, your family will be ruined and driven from the country!"

My brother said "Woe is me" back when we had a relationship that didn't sullenly burn. We said it back and forth to each other, laughing. "Woe is me! Woe is me!"

There's no benefit in this except what I get for myself when I use this as a place where I can clarify my thoughts fully. And I'm content with being selfish if that's what it means. I'm done with typing those descriptions. They make my neck hurt. The demands become too much. Maybe I set myself up with this. I think it was supposed to be a nice thing, but it ended up being a tool for me to stave off the reality I'm avoiding by spitting them out.

If you guys really want to know your type, then read the fucking book yourself. These aren't fundamentals if every time I say "fundamental concept" a few details of the descriptions are trivialized into oblivion.

These aren't my sustenance. These aren't my food. These are the icing on the cake. They're fucking party tricks. I'm throwing candy to myself and it's like I'm examining how the composition of pure sugar can keep myself alive. How long is it going to be before I admit that I need something real?

You can't find your type? That's bullshit. You just don't want to.

[blankblank]

Well well. People are really jumping on my case here. Give me a minute to reply to everything.

[blankblank]

1s relate to perfection but the neurotic focus is called ORDER rather than perfection. it may also be DISORDER, because that´s what ones are trying to avoid, but their obsession is ORDER, like with 2s it´s 'OTHERS' and 6s 'DANGERS'.

For example it´s very difficult for me to live somewhere where people are messy with things and everything´s thrown around. My living spaces have total order to them, everything has its place and is clean, and everything is constantly being organized and cleaned to keep things in order. This focus on order brings a sense that things are not getting out of control, a certain safety that everything is going to be okay because everything is in order.

So if you want to mention the neurotic focus of each type:

6s focus on danger, 2s focus on others, and 1s focus on order.

Order? Mmk. I don't think "danger" is necessarily the best word for 6s, either...I'd say "foreseeing unpleasant consequences" or something.

[blankblank]

Probably an ISTJ is a stronger type 1 than an ESTJ, because an ISTJ has Ti and Se in the egoblock. I find in my personal experience that Si in egoblock kind of eases a lot the tension and the anger of being an E1.

But then there´s also the question of Ti vs Te if you take an LSI E1 and an LSE E1... the LSI E1 is a strong one but cooler because of not having Te and having Ti on egoblock, as I stated before, I agree with Ashton´s and others´ position that Ti is somewhat 'cooler' than Te. BUT, perhaps more stubborn and physically more territorial than an LSE E1 because of Se. So this is relative and you cannot say that an LSE E1 is a stronger E1 than an LSI E1, which are the most common socionics types for an E1.

Hmm mmk. It's interesting to hear that Si helps you out.

[blankblank]

Another thing I noticed is that you say very directly 'it sucks 2BU', sorry but this is not in much conformity with an INFJ behavior. You should retype yourself in socionics if you want to be accurate and not delude yourself because you´re probably not an EII. INFJs don´t say things which may be offensive so bluntly except if they´re really in a bad mood and sad, but even then, what I see IRL with INFJs is they are rarely harsh on others with their words. They rather distance themselves or keep quiet than verbally say something really rude as 'it sucks to be you'.

Woah woah woah. I was NOT trying to be rude here. My thought process was: ESTjs have a "hidden agenda" to be perfect > 1s want to be perfect > ESTj + 1 = really wanting to be perfect. I was trying to be playful.

[blankblank]

Don't make the mistake of being too prescriptive in trying to assign one word descriptions to these types. They are meant to convey a feeling, a mindset. "Perfection", isolated as a concept, floating off in space, doesn't really mean much; it can be applied to basically anything.

You'll have to be able to observe the patterns your thoughts and perceptions take, and assign the single word after that. There's nothing wrong with summary, but an accurate summary depends upon its subject matter. What it's made of. If you take your unsurety and use that as the foundation upon which to take a word designed to encompass an actual concept, a real thing, you're going to be screwed.

That's why I don't think it's very useful to ask for the opinions of people who hardly know you to base your self typing upon. Or rely on their opinions. You're not doing anything for yourself perception wise if you don't have any of your own reasoning.

If you're able to practice the inner observer thing for the least bit, you'll probably be able to determine your type with certainty. It isn't actually that hard. But it does take some effort, on your part, and no one else's.

I was trying to spur conversation on types 1 and 2. Airborne's reply is the type of discussion I wanted to spur. And no, I was not just relying on other people to tell me my type, I spent a long time yesterday reading enneagram descriptions to establish that I'm a 6>2>1. Posting on this site was just a portion of that time. (I spent so long only because it's fun for me, btw, if anyone was thinking of telling me I'm too reliant on the enneagram theory.)

[Creepy-female]

I was trying to spur conversation on types 1 and 2.

Okay, cool. Then don't take it personally. What I said was kind of in general anyway.

[blankblank]

Okay, cool. Then don't take it personally. What I said was kind of in general anyway.

Yeah, it sounded like it was directed to the thread as a whole anyway. So I didn't.

[Airman]

I think you´re just being honest Dolphin.

To tell people that you´re not going to type descriptions from books anymore because it´s tiring for you. It´s just reasonable.

But in your previous post... uuh I don´t think I could make any sense of any single sentence LOL I´M DUMB

[Airman]

Okay Random Ness I got your point.

Yes, ESTJ and E1 ... kind of a strong E1 in the sense that the need to be perfect becomes too much. An E8 ESTJ as Ryu for example is probably less stressed out than myself. Because if you´re too demanding on yourself and others, the world and life in general, you end up having strong mental problems: anxiety, depression, frustration, anger anger anger.

About your type, I was just saying that if you type INFJ in MBTI, you might be INFP in Socionics. There´s a list of the two systems' relations here:

Socionics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[blankblank]

Yes, ESTJ and E1 ... kind of a strong E1 in the sense that the need to be perfect becomes too much. An E8 ESTJ as Ryu for example is probably less stressed out than myself. Because if you´re too demanding on yourself and others, the world and life in general, you end up having strong mental problems: anxiety, depression, frustration, anger anger anger.

Yeah...

About your type, I was just saying that if you type INFJ in MBTI, you might be INFP in Socionics. There´s a list of the two systems' relations here:

Socionics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, EII seems to describe me better than IEI. Especially, for instance, the wikisocion.org EII domain, and EII relations with EIIs, IEIs, SLEs, and SLIs. So I'm pretty sure I am an EII... Though definitely at first I was totally puzzled by the j/p switch in socionics. Arrrg, trying to get over the mental scars of MBTI...

[silke]

bump - good stuff

[anndelise]

Thanks for the bump, siuntal. I hadn't know this existed.

The first half of 6 fit me perfectly. In fact, Eerily so. The split in consciousness, the constant scanning of the environment, being hyperalert for clues of possible sudden changes.

The second half didn't fit me, though. When I'm interacting with someone, the hyperalertness is there, but it's still scanning for clues of possible sudden changes, rather than looking for signs of proof of a preconceived idea of the person. However, when I was fresh from home, I did react to people's movements and signals in similar manner as first paragraph.

This is one of the reasons why i have a white noise machine by my bed...because even in sleep I'm hyperalert to the environment around me, and even small slight noises, like my daughter shifting positions in her bed at the opposite end of the house, will wake me up. And sleeping in some place new? Like a hotel? Not happening!!

This is also the reason why I tire easily in social settings. An outsider might view it as me being introverted, but it's because the hyperalertness brings in so much fricking info that it eventually overwhelms and I disassociate. For every person talking, every person moving, etc, there are tons of "clues" bombarding me. My SiFe and NiFe family are able to tune out a lot of what's going on...I can't tune it out.

Anyways, just wanted to thank Dolphin for having posted the descriptions, and siuntal for bumping it. Many descriptions of 6s don't seem to fit me. The motivation might be there, but the actions differ. Or the actions fit, but not the motivations. This description fit the closest of anything I've read.

But it's also one of the reasons why I'm against the attempts to align socionics types with enneagram types. I wasn't born paranoid...it was instilled into me by my environment during my developing years. Outside->In vs already innate potential.

[Reuben]

wow this is good. n1 adolphi.

I'm beginning to think that I'm more 1-ish than 3,7, or 8. What do you think delise?

[Absurd]

wow this is good. n1 adolphi.

I'm beginning to think that I'm more 1-ish than 3,7, or 8. What do you think delise?

Definitely, you even sound like LSI.

[Joven Erudito89]

How Sixes Pay Attention

If you are not a Six, this exercise will help you understand the unconscious shifts of attention that underlie the Six's worldview. You will need a book to read as part of the exercise. When you have found a book, sit down and keep it closed on your lap.
Now remember someone who made you feel afraid when you were young. Visualize this person standing before you, the face, the body stance, the clothing, and particularly remember the way that he or she looked at you when you felt intimidated.
Now believe that you have been living with this person on a day-by-day basis for a long time in a very small house. Your intimidator has access to anything in the house and could show up at any time.
Now open the book and start to read, while at the same time remembering to stay aware of the person in the house. Split your attention between reading the lines and checking out the potential intruder's movements. You will either be able to pay attention to both tasks simultaneously, or your attention will shuttle back and forth between reading and being aware of the other's whereabouts. In either case, you have adopted the state of mind of a person who has been made to be afraid.
The next practice should be done facing a friend who is gracious enough to let you stare at his or her face while you practice shifting your attention.
Now form an idea of something that this friend might be thinking about you that he or she has never expressed. It can be either a positive or a negative opinion, but you should believe that your friend is very likely to be holding this opinion, and you are going to look for confirming signs.
Now, hold an ordinary out-loud conversation with your friend, while at the same time scanning the face for signs of the hidden point of view. All of the elements of the paranoid style are now present: an inner hypothesis (in this case fabricated), and a split of attention between the talk going on between the two of you and the need to look for confirming signs of the hidden opinion. For the true paranoid, the inner hypothesis is really a conviction. He or she knows that the painful opinion is true and is looking for corroborating evidence in the mannerisms and facial cues that the partner is bound to produce in the course of an ordinary chat.

This post is scary accurate.
Especially the bolded parts!

[Wavebury]

Ok, based on this Im 100 percent certain Im not an 8. 6 describes me well here.

[Satan]

Bosses will recognize the "don't let yourself think" state of mind as a kind of controlled wall staring, which they are likely to find themselves doing when something painful needs to be buried. An Eight can wake up in the middle of having been staring at a blank wall or an empty tabletop for God knows how long and find that he or she has a hard time thinking. The Eight is perceptually blanked out. If the mental blankout had a voice, it would say, "nothing painful gets past the tabletop blockade."

This also seems to be the theory behind making soldiers stand at attention and be able to have self-control when people like a drill sgt yells at them. It probably relates to this e8 instinctual occupation, as many e8 are likely to become soldiers. Not all of course, e8s also can become a whole myriad of things.

i never saw the point of that whole yelling drill sergent thing. they just seem funny.. like they're trying too hard.

[Satan]

Ok, based on this Im 100 percent certain Im not an 8. 6 describes me well here.

the 6 description is pretty confusing, i had problems imagining and reading at the same time? like how can you imagine and read at the same time.

[Satan]

Thanks for the bump, siuntal. I hadn't know this existed.

The first half of 6 fit me perfectly. In fact, Eerily so. The split in consciousness, the constant scanning of the environment, being hyperalert for clues of possible sudden changes.

The second half didn't fit me, though. When I'm interacting with someone, the hyperalertness is there, but it's still scanning for clues of possible sudden changes, rather than looking for signs of proof of a preconceived idea of the person. However, when I was fresh from home, I did react to people's movements and signals in similar manner as first paragraph.

This is one of the reasons why i have a white noise machine by my bed...because even in sleep I'm hyperalert to the environment around me, and even small slight noises, like my daughter shifting positions in her bed at the opposite end of the house, will wake me up. And sleeping in some place new? Like a hotel? Not happening!!

This is also the reason why I tire easily in social settings. An outsider might view it as me being introverted, but it's because the hyperalertness brings in so much fricking info that it eventually overwhelms and I disassociate. For every person talking, every person moving, etc, there are tons of "clues" bombarding me. My SiFe and NiFe family are able to tune out a lot of what's going on...I can't tune it out.

Anyways, just wanted to thank Dolphin for having posted the descriptions, and siuntal for bumping it. Many descriptions of 6s don't seem to fit me. The motivation might be there, but the actions differ. Or the actions fit, but not the motivations. This description fit the closest of anything I've read.

But it's also one of the reasons why I'm against the attempts to align socionics types with enneagram types. I wasn't born paranoid...it was instilled into me by my environment during my developing years. Outside->In vs already innate potential.

actually i can relate to that if i'm tired or really hungover. isn't that just low serotonin levels? like being on edge.

[Satan]

i've noticed in myself some pretty strong denial at times. like this kind of surreal realisation that i can't really affirm.

like in psycho killer i thought it was the doors it seems it's talking heads..

but that's like the internal experience.

[Radio]

How Nines Pay Attention

When Nines "go on automatic," they can complete complicated tasks without paying conscious attention to what their hands and bodies are doing. We all have the ability to learn skills and to perform them mechanically. For example, there is the common experience of "waking up" upon arriving home, with no recollection of having made the drive. There is also the example of speed typists, who report that they can fantasize or think about a problem, while turning out reams of accurate copy at 90 wpm.

The trick for the typists is to type without reading the material. They section off just enough attention to get the mechanics of the job done, while simultaneously ruminating about other things. This style of attention can be called coprocessing, a way of doing more than one mental operation at the same time.

Nines report that they dip in and out of conversations. A sector of their attention is mechanically focused on what is being said, but they can simultaneously coprocess another train of thought or feel themselves merging into what they suppose other people are feeling. Most Nines describe coprocessing as sliding from one object of attention to another. For example, a word in a conversation may trigger a memory, trigger an inner monologue about the memory, trigger feelings about how the present conversation is similar to the past.

These interior diversions go on while the Nine is still aware of how the conversation is developing. Like the motorist who arrived at home without a memory of having driven there, Nines can wake up to hear themselves give a passable reply, having forgotten the topic of conversation. [lol yes.] Nines say that they tune their mental radio to two or three stations, slipping between classical, country, and rock 'n' roll.

A profound version of the ability to coprocess is described by some Meditators as having a mind full of pinwheels. In this version attention is simultaneously focused on several things at once, perhaps the carpet pattern, the buttons on a sleeve, a profound emotion, and a couple of trains of thought. A Nine who looks blanked out and inattentive to others may internally be laboring under the burden of too much to do.

Because Nines are asleep with respect to their own position, they do not habitually look for information that supports a strategic course of action. New situations can be perceived globally where all the elements are recognized and can be described, but one one thing stands out as particularly important or worthy of mention. This is in contrast to the perception of point Three which is focused on the elements in new situations that support particular tasks. It is also distinct from the perception of type Six, which is skewed toward the hidden interactions between people.

Nine is aware of all the surface elements and all the interactions under the surface, but finds it hard to pick out what is important and significant from the inessential details. Nines are aware of everything, but they find it difficult to identify the correct starting point or discriminate between the critical issues and the background noise. Attention circulates freely between what is essential in a situation and what is irrelevant to the central task. It is this habit of attention that perpetuates the loss of a personal position. How can one decide upon a meaningful position when everything seems to have equal importance? There is no sense of conflict, because nothing stands out as more important than anything else.

> me.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Online resources of Enneagram are really, really awful and unreliable. Its a really bad way to base Enneagram off of.

[Aiss]

I'm saying that we should question our own types, and to not just settle in and take it as fact because it has the potential to do damage.

It seemed to me that you were basically telling Aiss that it's okay if you don't relate to the description because as long as you think e5 fits, it fits. I'm saying 'no, you should take these things as red flags, and question yourself a bit.' Maybe find out why she still relates to e5 and not this particular description. Maybe it's because of her or maybe it's because of the description, idk. All, I'm saying is do some questioning and investigation.

I didn't mean you, dolphin, need to question her type. Sorry if I was unclear.

Yeah you were 100% right, it was a red flag. Took me a year to even consider it, but now I'm fairly certain I'm a 4w5. BTW I see my whole argument with dolphin as a heavy case of rationalizing now. Sorry dolphin.

[Creepy-female]

Online resources of Enneagram are really, really awful and unreliable. Its a really bad way to base Enneagram off of.

Tis from a book, Vader.

Yeah you were 100% right, it was a red flag. Took me a year to even consider it, but now I'm fairly certain I'm a 4w5. BTW I see my whole argument with dolphin as a heavy case of rationalizing now. Sorry dolphin.

Aiss

[Wavebury]

Ok, based on this Im 100 percent certain Im not an 8. 6 describes me well here.

the 6 description is pretty confusing, i had problems imagining and reading at the same time? like how can you imagine and read at the same time.

Yeah, I think it basically means the six is constantly preoccupied by worrying thoughts, even when doing something which is supposed to take your mind off of them.

[Azeroffs]

Yeah you were 100% right, it was a red flag. Took me a year to even consider it, but now I'm fairly certain I'm a 4w5. BTW I see my whole argument with dolphin as a heavy case of rationalizing now. Sorry dolphin.

I'm glad you figured things out
I could have easily been wrong about it though. Even now, I'm sure there are some things that don't jive about e4. I've just always had the opinion that typing requires constant questioning if you're going to take it seriously. Although, I think a lot of the time it's better to just not take it seriously.

[Creepy-male]

i never saw the point of that whole yelling drill sergent thing. they just seem funny.. like they're trying too hard.

Did you post this because you relate to being an e8, but not to the entire drill "sergent" thing?

[Creepy-male]

I don't really relate strongly to the e5 description; they make e5's sound really really pathetic, I feel like I naturally kind of shift to being more e8 for better or worse when I get too isolated, like I instinctively know where the direction of integration is or something.

The description makes it sound like the e5 just looses the will to live and becomes withdrawn to some pretty severe points, I don't really relate to that, although I do relate to the withdrawn nature of 5's and 4's a lot, I spend a lot of time by myself thinking or doing artistic things and it brings me a lot of joy/peace. I feel like in some ways the connection between e8 and e5 is very strong, like an e5 is the result of an e8 which goes inward into their mind. Both are "power-seeking" types, which I relate to.

[Sumer1an]

I relate to 5, 6, and 4. Im probably 5w6....... actually nevermind. I relate to 5, 6, and 4 equally. I hate the enneagram.

[Creepy-female]

I don't really relate strongly to the e5 description...

HLZ, you don't feel like an e5 to me? I don't remember the exact mechanics of the explanatory theoretical mechanism I want to reference, but 5s seem to be detached from their emotions to the point where you simply don't feel that part of them in interaction. When they want to express sentiments they detail their experience very thoroughly and formally, and they aren't aware of how detached it comes across; they are usually sincere, or trying very hard.

The thing about 5s is that spontaneous emotion comes out in unexpected gulps, they do not control this, and they are very vunerable at this point. When the formal, knowledgeable mask falls away, they are an ocean of feeling that is almost never expressed in proportion to its intensity. They are childlike in this state, and extremely sensitive. One must be able to appreciate this sensitivity for what it is and practice unobtrusive mindful acceptance; a stronger or more clumsy approach is the emotional equivalent of bashing someone over the head with a 2x4, and will almost certainly cause them to clam up indefinitely.

All types have probably experienced this sensitive state to some degree, as to a point it falls into the normal range of human experience/emotion, the difference is that 6s have a certain fixation on it that shapes their pysches. If you can recall a state in which you were sensitive, childlike, and halting, and the sense of gratitude and trust that came from someone treating that with compassion, as opposed to the almost emotional abuse that a harsh world entailed, and that resulted in indefinite withdrawal - you can imagine the state 5s exist in when their prickliness, evasion, and emotional formality falls away.

Now HLZ, this isn't my debating that you aren't a 5, nor is this a challenge of your typing. This is what I have observed in 5s, a quality that they possess across the board. It can also be seen when 8s go to 5, and (my personal favorite to witness) when 7s go to 5. I do not witness this quality in you, and from what I have observed, perceive some sort of 6 as a better fit. And um my intentions here are not to challenge you, but rather to share what I perceive, soo yeah I'm not like trying to debate your type.

[Creepy-male]

HLZ, you don't feel like an e5 to me? I don't remember the exact mechanics of the explanatory theoretical mechanism I want to reference, but 5s seem to be detached from their emotions to the point where you simply don't feel that part of them in interaction. When they want to express sentiments they detail their experience very thoroughly and formally, and they aren't aware of how detached it comes across; they are usually sincere, or trying very hard.

The thing about 5s is that spontaneous emotion comes out in unexpected gulps, they do not control this, and they are very vunerable at this point. When the formal, knowledgeable mask falls away, they are an ocean of feeling that is almost never expressed in proportion to its intensity. They are childlike in this state, and extremely sensitive. One must be able to appreciate this sensitivity for what it is and practice unobtrusive mindful acceptance; a stronger or more clumsy approach is the emotional equivalent of bashing someone over the head with a 2x4, and will almost certainly cause them to clam up indefinitely.

All types have probably experienced this sensitive state to some degree, as to a point it falls into the normal range of human experience/emotion, the difference is that 6s have a certain fixation on it that shapes their pysches. If you can recall a state in which you were sensitive, childlike, and halting, and the sense of gratitude and trust that came from someone treating that with compassion, as opposed to the almost emotional abuse that a harsh world entailed, and that resulted in indefinite withdrawal - you can imagine the state 5s exist in when their prickliness, evasion, and emotional formality falls away.

Now HLZ, this isn't my debating that you aren't a 5, nor is this a challenge of your typing. This is what I have observed in 5s, a quality that they possess across the board. It can also be seen when 8s go to 5, and (my personal favorite to witness) when 7s go to 5. I do not witness this quality in you, and from what I have observed, perceive some sort of 6 as a better fit. And um my intentions here are not to challenge you, but rather to share what I perceive, soo yeah I'm not like trying to debate your type.

Hmm to be completely honest, I do actually relate to that, but it just feels too pre-packaged. It's like they are assuming this basic problem is only solved in one particular way. It seems like there is another level on top of that. It seems like e5's would have different psychological mechanisms to learn how to deal with this issue.

You're also assuming the presence of any kind of psychological mechanisms to be an indication someone is an e6. I think that line could be drawn a lot better.

It seems pretty extreme to think e5's are all extreme sensitive children on the inside and they can only survive through withdrawl from these emotions or through a sort of mental state of objectification of there feelings which alienates themselves and others.

I think that is the central challenge of the type in specific, but it is not the characteristic of the type, the characteristic of the type is exactly what kind of psychological mechanisms they have found to deal with this challenge. These mechanisms are constantly being tested and rebuilt, as part of the integration or disintegration process. Moving towards self-development or falling away into problems.

Problems begin to happen with the e5 when they become scattered at 7, this creates mental confusion, that is the result of stress to their "wall of alienation", people are penetrating the walls and approaching the core they feel is weak and unguarded, child-like in nature, so they struggle to erect mental barriers, introspection results, and maybe odd obsessions with ideas.

While the e5 is focusing all this mental energy within, it leaves them very little focus on the outside world, and their mental energy in dealing with the external world is sporatic and impuslive, and thus they are impulsive like the e7.

It should also be noted that the introspection is connected to their tendancy to withdrawl, and odd obsessions with ideas to their tendancy to be eccentric. It is also the hallmark in my opinion of the type.

Through the process of withdrawling, it re-vitalizes their energy, and may yield potential insights that are considered novel or visionary. This is the "reward" in effect for all the mental energy they dedicate towards these introspections and odd fixations, but at times it can seem like a prison. Intellectually they are competent, but emotionally they struggle as they have a barrier or wall of alienation between themselves and others.

Now that's the sad story of how they fall apart, but when they integrate, they move towards e8

This in effect is a state of being more embodied, grounded, and in reality. They are people of action, they do not reserve themselves or their energy for themselves. (Once again avarice is associated to e5). They do not struggle from analysis paralysis. They move forward confidently and are self-possessed and unafraid.

With all this energy though are are able to carry their actual inner self they have erected a wall around into reality, instead of it being a guarded aspect of their self.

Usually there are two branches of self-development for e5's in helping them achieve integration. Movement towards e4 and e6. E6 helps them externalize their anxieties and thus is a bridge to being open and moving towards integration. E4 helps them find a truer awareness of their feelings and thus is a bridge to their alienated emotions.

I relate to all of that very well, I just find that its very unique the ways I have found to deal with this central challenge.

Sometimes I've become very good at hiding my insecurities, when in reality they are building underneath the surface. Also I obsessively plan my time around my energy level, if I'm around people too long anxiety will build to the point where I feel like I need to be alone. Normally being alone leads to melancholy states, but I try to look at it more as a regeneration process, relaxing, and building energy up to re-approach life.

Alot of the ways I've dealt with being e5 have been influenced or shaped by my early childhood and experiences as well, or did those shape the fact I am e5?

I don't know, I'm rambling, but see what you can ellicit from that.

[Creepy-female]

Well, first of all, I don't really subscribe to the whole integration/disintegration notion. From comparing the literature, I think Riso and Hudson incorrectly focus on this and create unnecessary categories of "good/bad", which defeats the purpose of mindfulness; type is not a problem to be solved. Integration/disintegration is simply how the type moves under security/stress, neither of which are inherently better than the other. Just because one is secure does not vault them into the plane of higher functioning, and stress can serve as a mechanism for self growth/awareness, etc.

Childlike isn't the same thing as child.

Type exists more or less on a continuum. The mechanism I described doesn't designate extremity. But yes, that is how it works, that is what a 5 is, and how it is differentiated from 8 other types. Enneagram describes a fixation of thought/interaction. When one moves away from fixation, it becomes less useful.

You're changing the nature of my observation when you start generalizing it in such a way. It's meant to describe a specific process I've observed in rl 5s.

In my perception, your rant doesn't seem to possess any sort of point of coherence or convergence. It just seems like a bunch of distended rambling that isn't related to anything. Its like where are these statements coming from. What is your point? Try it in 5 sentences or less.

[Creepy-male]

I'm not ranting, I'm trying to explain things.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like I am a better judge than you of my personality, as I've lived with myself longer than you have interacted with me on this forum. Therefore I feel like I'm in a good position to freely explain myself, rather than place confidence in a few disjointed observations you may have about me and who I am.

Also the idea of integration/disintegration and it being a problem -- I don't see the problem with that? It defeats the purpose of mindfulness? How does that follow? Can't a person be mindful and aware of a problem, you make it sound like anytime there is a problem the mind must immediate detach. That's not always the case, sometimes problems help focus the mind. If one where to consider self-development, then defining problems could be a useful way to proceed with this. The idea isn't to solve it all "out on paper" the idea is to have an awareness of some type of problem so that when one experiences stress it can be treated as a problem to be solved, which ultimately leads to a sense of completion or resolution, which alleviates the stress temporarily. Problem solving is a process, not an end result, so I don't see how your advice/criticism follows. I can easily be in the moment while perceiving a problem, and even if a problem isn't solved, it isn't the end of the world, because all a problem is, is a mental construct, it doesn't exist outside of one's own head.

There is that enough sentences to pass for the express lane?

[Creepy-female]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like I am a better judge than you of my personality, as I've lived with myself longer than you have interacted with me on this forum. Therefore I feel like I'm in a good position to freely explain myself, rather than place confidence in a few disjointed observations you may have about me and who I am.

Of course you know yourself better than anyone. You haven't connected yourself to being 5 in any meaningful way. Doesn't mean you aren't a 5, but I'm not inclined to believe you're a certain type when what I see is to the contrary. It's not personal.

Also the idea of integration/disintegration and it being a problem -- I don't see the problem with that? It defeats the purpose of mindfulness? How does that follow? Can't a person be mindful and aware of a problem,

Yes, however, integration/disintegration are not problems, and should not be viewed as such.

you make it sound like anytime there is a problem the mind must immediate detach.

I did not say this. Mindfulness isn't necessarily detachment.

That's not always the case, sometimes problems help focus the mind.

For sure, but integration/disintegration still aren't problems.

If one where to consider self-development, then defining problems could be a useful way to proceed with this.

Self development doesn't have to involve a positive/negative dichotomy.

The idea isn't to solve it all "out on paper" the idea is to have an awareness of some type of problem so that when one experiences stress it can be treated as a problem to be solved, which ultimately leads to a sense of completion or resolution, which alleviates the stress temporarily.

Developing awareness of behavior/thought process/something and simply observing it leads to greater knowledge of the nature of the behavior/thought process/something, which can result in alternate ways of dealing with it without having to impose morality. The behavior/thought process/something is looked at in terms of practicality and usefulness rather than right/wrong. It's not for everyone, but I think it's a great alternative approach to people who may have a highly developed inner critic.

There is that enough sentences to pass for the express lane?

There's a pileup on aisle 5.