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Thread: LII and difficulty being concise

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    Default LII and difficulty being concise

    Supposedly LIIs are known for their conciseness but I often have problems being concise. It's not a problem of separating the main point from the secondary, which I do just fine. It's a problem of not wanting to leave out data that could be potentially important. Sometimes it all seems potentially important so I want to leave it all there. Thoughts?
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Just abstract it to a higher structure that can account for the outlying data.
    I never realized how many idiots there were until I logged on to the Internet. -- Edsger Dijkstra, Dutch Computer Scientist and pioneer in network communication (possibly apocryphal)

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    I have that as well. In class, I often start with asking a question, elaborate by explaining what I thought it would be like, or how I reached a certain idea, and then re-stating the question.

    Also, I sometimes begin a sentence and realise all the information that I deem as relevant would take far too long to explain, and so I don't say anything or stop mid-sentence with a "don't worry."

    I'm a horrible rambler when it comes to debating as well.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Yep, my father is terrible at being concise. He will just ramble on and on and follow tangents. He knows exactly what he is talking about, but he has trouble getting it all out. Maybe because English is his third language.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    I do think being concise is a real INTj talent when they focus on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    I do think being concise is a real INTj talent when they focus on it.
    Rambling becomes a natural problem for LII when circumstances require that they externalize their thought process. But in all cases, LII are typically economic with their words.
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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Just for the record, I don't have anything remote to this problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Just for the record, I don't have anything remote to this problem.
    Don't you wonder why? (ps because you wouldn't have this problem as an LII)
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Don't you wonder why? (ps because you wouldn't have this problem as an LII)
    Years of experience with socionics have made evident to me that there is a lot of variation possible within the confines of a single type.

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    Yes -- there are two main reasons for why I can't be as concise as I would wish.

    The first is that my aim isn't to convey an idea to someone else, but to relate an idea with perfect correctness. For example, I rarely speak in absolutes, even if it's perfectly normal to do so. A politician might say something like, "Despite our political differences, we all love America"; if I were in such a position, I would say, "While our political viewpoints may inform our opinion of America, causing those with more radical outlooks to be more prone to disgruntlement, the majority of Americans nonetheless have a nationalistic attachment to their country" (obviously, I'm not a politician). I also structure my sentences in a rather unnatural way -- while other people have a rather direct way of speaking, I have a tendency to use appositives, varied verb tenses, unnecessarily long clarifying phrases, and other linguistic quirks that give my speech a more meandering quality. I think I do so because I care about the accuracy of my statements to a ridiculous extent, inducing me to choose my words as I go along so as to minimize ambiguity.

    The second is that I wish to relate many issues to some underlying, fundamental principles, to give broad overviews, and to examine issues from multiple perspectives. So if someone were to ask me about (say) a political matter, I would refer to the pertinent axioms in justifying my stance and would place the matter in the proper empirical context; moreover, I would do the same for certain contrary views to illustrate their shortcomings. If someone were to ask me about unemployment, I might reply, "Unemployment isn't a problem per se; rather, the problem is that many people are unable to earn a livelihood. We do not need to ensure that everyone toils for a certain amount of hours per week, but that everyone has access to a comfortable standard of living. Therefore, unemployment is only a problem insofar as its impact cannot be ameliorated by other means, such as a social safety net". I might then go on to explain the structural reasons for unemployment by pointing to the increases in output that accompanied the rise of mechanized labor and did not require any considerable amount of additional manpower. I would also show how it was in the interest of businessmen to have a high unemployment rate, as a greater supply of labor would lower its price by making people more desperate for jobs and more willing to tolerate worse employment conditions. Given this basis, I could then describe why tax cuts misidentify the central problem -- the inadequacy of the economic system to distribute benefits equitably -- and therefore would have a deleterious effect on the economic situation. The amount of time I focus on each point (whether principles, overviews, and alternative views) varies from topic to topic; on political issues, I might largely neglect the first point while on philosophical issues I might neglect the second. The general theme, however, is that I want to impart to my listener a greater understanding of the topic we are discussing.

    Also, I have a (probably annoying) habit of saying things like, "I understand your idea, but consider the following: blah, blah, blah...", whereby I put my audience to sleep with my long-winded pedantry.

    On the other hand, I can be quite concise in certain circumstances. I don't focus on what I believe to be minor details; if someone gives an overly ponderous explanation of something, I am good at weeding out the fluff and rephrasing the idea in a more succinct form. Basically (from my perspective), my problem isn't that I say unnecessary things, but that I have many necessary things to say, and I necessarily have to present them in a logically rigorous manner; others might think that a lot of what I have to say is unnecessary and that I explain it in too complex a manner.

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    Just abstract it to a higher structure that can account for the outlying data
    HAHA
    You talk like this yourself jxrtes

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    sometimes i do catch myself doing this because some things were necessary in the formation of the conclusion and therefore should be mentioned to show how the conclusion was derived.

    but, with experience and practice, and accepting the fact that when one communicates the point is to have the other party understand as otherwise why would i bother, i now consciously try to pitch the message the way the other person would understand, and recently i am also trying to also do it in from a view that the other person would care about, especially if they are a very different type. socionics has helped me a bit with this. i believe i could sometimes respond with contempt and irritation when faced with what appears to be imbecilic incomprehension, but i have now mellowed with age and tolerance, and knowledge.

    remember that types that deal well with people can also be poor communicators - but their defects are different from this, or could be similar but due to different reasons.

    communicating properly is, however, indeed a lot of hard work. it isn't just dumping your thoughts onto another person and then hope that perhaps it was understood - hence why it's such a pleasure when this does happen, when you find someone on your wavelength. in begoner's example for the second answer, if in the context of persuading the other party/audience most people will not be able to understand that approach. stories work - basically convert the exact same underlying principles and its application to the problem at hand, into an example story of how it would play out in a way they can see. but some topics really are very hard to convert to robust experiential stories.

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    I am extremely guilty of this, well mostly when it comes to written communication and writing in general. With verbal communication, sometimes especially if it is a topic I am knowledgable about. If so, I can ramble on and on. Often when saying something, people don't get it the first time because I am horrible at wording things, so I have to rephrase. I have a good idea in my head but then the words in the next step.

    Otherwise, when it comes to say, sharing information about myself or just stuff in general, I am too brief or don't get my point across well. I don't get my point across well in general but I have a tendency of going on with special topics of interest. With writing essays for school, I go over the word/page limit and have to make an effort to cut the fat off of the meat. People always joke that I write books when I write my essays and take notes. All this scribbly chaotic handwriting on a piece of paper that no one can decipher and would drive a neatfreak insane is the result.
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    read Gulenko \end of thread
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    They tend to talk as if they're writing out the thought process in their heads, so it can sometimes come across as pedantic and longwinded to observers.

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    I tend to be fairly verbose when explaining or teaching concepts verbally. I tend to wind on about the context which I think is necessary to explain subjects — which can be quite a bit. Over text though, it’s easier to structure my thoughts, and I’m more consistently concise.
    Gods and men name her Aphrodite...Cyprus-born, because she was born in wave-dashed Cyprus; and lover of smiles, because she emerged out of the genitals.

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    In theory, i would think that LII, being the conceptual, general and principally oriented thinker of the socion, would be concise, absolute in speech. ILI is often seen as the more ''divergent'' or ''long-winded'' in that regard, not seeing the value in discerning static principalities. Te works with data rather than the connections between data, so that might be an influence. the J vs P thing seems to be present here also
    When the heavens above did not exist,
    And earth beneath had not come into being ó
    There was ApsŻ, the first in order, their begetter,
    And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
    They had mingled their waters together
    Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found ó
    When not one of the gods had been formed
    Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
    The gods were created within them:

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    causal deterministic: terse and simple straightforward path, connective, solution
    Dialectic algorithmic: refinement and loops around paths

    Hologaphic panoramic: first world war, Rome, isomerism.
    Vortical Synergetic: Here there and everywhere.

    I wonder how the last two can get anything done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
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    Conciseness is developed through experience provided that there's a desire to be concise. All LIIs over the age of thirty that I've met were either concise, terse or silent. I tend to consider too much data so if I were to express my thoughts about complex issues without due consideration, it would likely be incoherent to others. I dread being swept up into important conversations for which I'm unprepared. All Ijs and Eps need time away (in sort of mental isolation) in order to put their thoughts in order; they're certainly not as naturally adept at real-time expression as are Ejs or to a lesser extent Ips. Now, I've met many Eps and other Ijs who didn't care whether or not they were concise and so tended to ramble whereas I haven't met any mature LIIs like that because they tend to be perfectionists - but I'm certain that they must exist. Note that younger LIIs can be rather impatient to get things out and also not consider the impact of their words; but eventually, most realize that they really shine when they ponder quite some time before texting or opening their mouth.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Conciseness is developed through experience provided that there's a desire to be concise. All LIIs over the age of thirty that I've met were either concise, terse or silent. I tend to consider too much data so if I were to express my thoughts about complex issues without due consideration, it would likely be incoherent to others. I dread being swept up into important conversations for which I'm unprepared. All Ijs and Eps need time away (in sort of mental isolation) in order to put their thoughts in order; they're certainly not as naturally adept at real-time expression as are Ejs or to a lesser extent Ips. Now, I've met many Eps and other Ijs who didn't care whether or not they were concise and so tended to ramble whereas I haven't met any mature LIIs like that because they tend to be perfectionists - but I'm certain that they must exist. Note that younger LIIs can be rather impatient to get things out and also not consider the impact of their words; but eventually, most realize that they really shine when they ponder quite some time before texting or opening their mouth.....

    a.k.a. I/O
    Quoted for antithesis. QED
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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    Quoted for antithesis. QED
    I would be interested in reading the study in which you have proven the opposite. All the posts on this site seem anecdotal; certainly, I've never had the ambition to take a rigid scientific approach but I'd like it if someone did so.....

    a.k.a I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I would be interested in reading the study in which you have proven the opposite. All the posts on this site seem anecdotal; certainly, I've never had the ambition to take a rigid scientific approach but I'd like it if someone did so.....

    a.k.a I/O
    Lol, @Rebelondeck. @Troll Nr 007 was quoting your long reply about why LII's are terse as a self-evident example of why they are not. No external studies needed.

    FWIW, I agree that LII's expressions of their thoughts typically are concise and well-organized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I would be interested in reading the study in which you have proven the opposite. All the posts on this site seem anecdotal; certainly, I've never had the ambition to take a rigid scientific approach but I'd like it if someone did so.....

    a.k.a I/O
    This specific thinking fits well within science such as biology and becomes even better the further it gets away from a lab.
    Regarding scientific reports and such I must say that no one never had to tell me anything about it. It was all natural.When I talk with my cognitive style siblings it seems like it is breath of fresh freezing air every time. We are to the point so much it gets zoomed in bit too much finding the truth. And if it gets hairy it usually gets very hairy. As such even SEE's when they can be illogical they still formalize their statements as for ESE's..

    IRL LII's can be quite concise but if the topic gets out of the limits without time limit be prepared.
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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    @Troll Nr 007 Over my long career, I learned to not debate with ILEs no matter how prepared I was because they liked to put too many balls in the air, and when someone would suggest "to go right", they'd inevitably go left. I know that I'm a terrible debater but most of the ILEs that I've met weren't that great either because they all tended to be presumptive and lecture rather than communicate, although they all were reasonably articulate. However, I recall one very articulate, highly-educated ILE executive in a boardroom being verbally destroyed on several occasions by an LIE, who never broke a sweat doing it. I also avoid getting into face-to-face arguments with Ejs and Ips especially LIEs and ILIs, but ILEs can't seem to resist the challenge.....

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    @Troll Nr 007 Over my long career, I learned to not debate with ILEs no matter how prepared I was because they liked to put too many balls in the air, and when someone would suggest "to go right", they'd inevitably go left. I know that I'm a terrible debater but most of the ILEs that I've met weren't that great either because they all tended to be presumptive and lecture rather than communicate, although they all were reasonably articulate. However, I recall one very articulate, highly-educated ILE executive in a boardroom being verbally destroyed on several occasions by an LIE, who never broke a sweat doing it. I also avoid getting into face-to-face arguments with Ejs and Ips especially LIEs and ILIs, but ILEs can't seem to resist the challenge.....

    a.k.a. I/O
    It just that ILE's tend to write extremely drilling reports. The roles get reversed on paper. Who wants to write text when formulas, graphs and tables say more than thousand words.
    So if ILE could print those formulas in the air... Only formulas matter in the end.

    Like I usually like to say: big picture speaking is just smoke screen for not handling base. Because basic information should reveal the big picture if understood right. For example we as living organisms do not matter which contrary statement which is that we matter seems to be underlying concept of many people. No need to struggle forward as our experience is just a fleeting moment and on universal this is nothing and it is way less than error in measurement of the whole scale.

    Like my thesis was so brief it made supervisor bit shaky but said that it had all what was needed and conclusions were good and introduced new potential.
    Last edited by Heretic 007; 06-04-2019 at 05:42 PM.
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    It's hit or miss for me but generally I like to keep things short. If I get enough coffee in me I end up writing super long emails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post

    Hologaphic panoramic: first world war, Rome, isomerism.
    The only connection I can find between these three things is that they all contain the letters r and o.

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    Just to be sure, do you sleep well every night? Could be a factor. Definitely is in my case.

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    Sounds very Ne valuing to me, and also well in your sig it says you are LII-Ne so it would make a lot of sense that you are like that. Ne doesn't like to leave out stuff that might be important. Hearing some ILEs talk, they are downright autistic or 'special' in their inability to filter. This is an extreme version though, not all ILEs are like this... but I'm sure we've all met the ILE that was 'that bad.'

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    For me it's: I write down a thought, re-read it and... think about facts, parameters, points and conections I missed... and then I start to change or re-phrase my writings.

    ...and get annoyed by that slow web-server this board runs on poke along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Exception View Post
    Supposedly LIIs are known for their conciseness but I often have problems being concise. It's not a problem of separating the main point from the secondary, which I do just fine. It's a problem of not wanting to leave out data that could be potentially important. Sometimes it all seems potentially important so I want to leave it all there. Thoughts?
    If you cannot judge whats important and whats not in this context then maybe youre not a ti lead type or a t type

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    Edward Snowden. I don't see him being very concise. Lots of information but he wants deliver viewpoint which I think is what LII's prefer to do.
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    According to the below, there would be some compatibility issues, if LII's weren't concise....



    Ti as Suggestive Function (EIE, ESE)

    The individual has great admiration for people with well-developed systems of views. He especially likes clear and concise explanations of concepts, rather than a lot of background information about them that is not directly pertinent. He wants his actions to make sense, and thus needs external assurance that the conceptual understanding behind them is correct. If he cannot find a source of certainty, he may become flustered and unable to act rationally at all.

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-by-Functions



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    Quote Originally Posted by DELL View Post
    According to the below, there would be some compatibility issues, if LII's weren't concise....



    Ti as Suggestive Function (EIE, ESE)

    The individual has great admiration for people with well-developed systems of views. He especially likes clear and concise explanations of concepts, rather than a lot of background information about them that is not directly pertinent. He wants his actions to make sense, and thus needs external assurance that the conceptual understanding behind them is correct. If he cannot find a source of certainty, he may become flustered and unable to act rationally at all.

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-by-Functions



    Yeah but the background information is still there and lots of it. The background information just does not have lots of procedural details like "he did that and she met him there".
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I donít care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

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    Rebelondeck's Avatar
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    @Nihilist 007 The way that Snowden conducts himself isn't very LII-like; and although LIIs do like discussing viewpoints, overviews, systems and theory, so do many other types.
    @DELL The first three of your quoted sentences do apply to LII; however, LIIs tend not to need external assurances and they can be very rational in times of uncertainty. Under high stress is when LIIs can get highly animated, chatty and wordy, which may be where Snowden finds himself.

    a.k.a. I/O

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