Ashton: SLE-Ti 8w7 sx/sp

[717495]

There's more Fe in this post than I've ever seen Ashton display. Granted, he and I haven't been around that long together, but still.

What do you mean by Fe in this post? In the words or the meaning? It could be you, the Fe valuer, is trying to connect to some Fe element in me? Just a guess. Usually an Fe valuer will look for Fe in someones words, method of expressing themselves, rather than finding the concept or facts.

[stanprollyright]

What do you mean by Fe in this post? In the words or the meaning? It could be you, the Fe valuer, is trying to connect to some Fe element in me? Just a guess. Usually an Fe valuer will look for Fe in someones words, method of expressing themselves, rather than finding the concept or facts.

I'm not an Fe-valuer, unless you're gonna retype me too (twice in the same thread - and it's not even about me!). I was simply talking about assumptions you make about people's emotional state. And it would make just as much, if not more sense that YOU are the Fe-valuer finding Fe in Ashton's words, if you really want to go that route.

It's a Socionics term to describe Fi vs Fe. Serious and merry. Obviously Fe-PoLRs are going to have a large amount of merry interaction missing from their lives, and usually rely on the serious. LIEs on the other hand are typically much more rationally energetic, focus much more on efficiency of action, much dryer serious conduct, don't really have a strong focus on continuing these sort of hobbies and putting in extensive time and fun into non-profit interaction or development, rather I see Ashton as more of the bored, spontaneous, opinionated, Fe-stirring guy with a logical ideology to prove and spread around. Not much a rational type in my eyes. So as much as I'd like to just accept people's self-typings, I'd much more accept him as an SLE, than how I've seen how real LIEs are. (I think some names for LIEs were Pioneer... er what else). Anyway, as much as you'd like to think I don't have Ni and I'm an SEI, or whatever, I just think your conception of Ni is limited, and you don't understand the types. Your concept of supervision even seems a bit off, with ILIs disliking you or being indifferent, ignoring you, possibly seeing you as troublesome, where as you've sort of explained how much you like ILIs. It's actually the opposite, like you EIE, see us ILI, the supervised, as troublesome and trying to figure out what's wrong with us and so we'll get things right, where as us ILIs can't really ignore you because of Fe-PoLR, so were forced to kind of see where we can get in and see if you can ever be pleased (which always proves ineffective, and the supervisor dislikes it even more.) Anyway, that's always how I've seen supervision with other EIEs, and I'm pretty sure you're an EIE.

[717495]

Those are from type descriptions that I'm restating, facts, knowledge, others' opinions etc. I don't know if you're trying to type me Fe and why? I don't quite understand.

[Creepy-male]

No Poli, you're socially isolated. I'm an SEI, and I live in my room. It's nothing to do with type. It's also bad for your health. Fix it.

Anyway, Ashton, if you are LIE, it would explain why I think your typings are so weird and nonsensical. I can do two things with this: assume you operate on some sort of world of bizarro-Ti, or assume that it's because you use Te which is a foreign way of thinking to me. Whatever form of Logics you use, they're arcane and... nonsensical. I don't specifically favour the latter since there are non-insane LIEs out there, most notably Expat.

Also, you have at least three complete, total and utter fuckwads associated with you or your forums. Long story short I appreciate the passive-aggressive proxy jabs at my self-typing about as much as you do. I'm not fucking ILE, and I'd like to stop hearing about it every time I hit up tinychat and "the Stickam crowd" are there.

[717495]

No Poli, you're socially isolated. I'm an SEI, and I live in my room. It's nothing to do with type. It's also bad for your health. Fix it.

Well I tend to see you as a merry type, also Fe interactive. It has nothing to do with being socially isolated. Whenever have I said that I am? Serious types will be less playful and really less into the whole social game, this much is true, and this doesn't mean Fe-PoLRs are socially isolated, or that I type socially isolated people as Fe-PoLR, but that they have a naturally vulnerability and deficiency with Fe. I easily can go to parties, funner interactions, etc. but don't really see much of the point, as it's draining on my Fe-PoLR. I do well hanging with some close friends and developing those personal bonds.

[717495]

stan's ENFp. You can't just change people's types around because they said something you didn't like. And he has a point. You didn't state any facts, you just told us how things make "ILIs" feel—in a dynamical way conveying the emotive reactions and mood fluctuations, aka more along the lines of .

No, I'm fairly sure I stated the facts, the opinions and knowledge I've read about LIEs and ILIs, that back up my experiences and opinion. And I was implying that because he's seeing Fe where I see none, that he must want to get Fe out of me. I didn't mean he was an Fe valuer per se, but typically Fe valuers will want more of that from me, and will trigger my "alleged" expressions.

[stanprollyright]

I can't say I see any Fe from poli's post or in the bolded (quite the opposite). I have mostly talked with him via the forum, but talking to him one on one, he displays like zero Fe. Esper's post on the other page is Fe, though.

Interpretations of people's motivations and emotions is Fe. I'm not trying to insinuate that poli is an Fe type, I honestly don't care. I'm just trying to make a point that poli's point is dumb.

[stanprollyright]

No, I'm fairly sure I stated the facts, the opinions and knowledge I've read about LIEs and ILIs, that back up my experiences and opinion. And I was implying that because he's seeing Fe where I see none, that he must want to get Fe out of me. I didn't mean he was an Fe valuer per se, but typically Fe valuers will want more of that from me, and will trigger my "alleged" expressions.

My point is that it could just as easily be you as the Fe-valuer finding Fe in Ashton's posts where there is none.

[717495]

You need to read more about the information elements to get an all inclusive impression, starting with Ni--read ILI descriptions. You can't just make a vague statement about me knowing someone's intentions, like that, and pass it off as a legitimate downfall to the actual content and point I'm trying to make about merry vs. serious types.

I feel like stan just wants to play with me now, so I think I'm done here for now.

[717495]

I do this, too, I observe what is outward and observable and make inferences on its dynamics but removing it from the emotional context unless its trying to see how a specific person feels about me (static ethics and internalized ethics, hence Fi). But Fe, which I see more as being able to assess one's present emotional state and to use body language, vocal intonation, word choice, to manipulate it. A recent description I wrote as a mini-sketch was:

Fe: Able to detect present emotional state through external factors. Adept Fe users understand how to influence or conjure the existing emotional state so much as to be able to calm an angry person or provoke the angry person's fury by deliberation.

IRL and on the forum, I see people knowing what words to say and how to say them (and especially using timing in the case of Beta NFs who have Ni proficiency) which are intended to get under your skin. It really freaks me out sometimes and that's why I cannot roll with the punches very well other than using a poker face and I can easily over react to that thing so I try not to encourage it. Though with many Fe egos, when they are using that to express positive energy, I don't really know how to respond (by being too unresponsive or over doing it)/feel uncomfortable having to respond and prefer to take the safe route in order not to create a static bad relation (negative Fi) which is of paramount importance for reasons I won't detail here.

I feel the same way dawg, and I don't think it has to do with being socially isolated or a recluse from life at all. It's definitely what I've seen in all other ILIs, that vulnerability of playful interaction, understanding external emotions, perceiving the dynamic social conduct, social cues, etc. Confusion, confusion, confusion. I relate with you on that one 100%.

[stanprollyright]

You need to read more about the information elements to get an all inclusive impression, starting with Ni--read ILI descriptions. You can't just make a vague statement about me knowing someone's intentions, like that, and pass it off as a legitimate downfall to the actual content and point I'm trying to make about merry vs. serious types.

We're talking about Fe, not Ni.

Vague statement? I cited it in your text.

[Capitalist Pig]

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[717495]

We're talking about Fe, not Ni.

Vague statement? I cited it in your text.

You're defining something as Fe that, from reading more into Socionics, could very well be Ni-related, and in my case definitely has to do with adhering to some sensible facts and secondhand opinions about Ashton and SLEs, that is less Fe and more Te. Most likely, the idea that Te types are less inclined to understand people's personality and intentions after studying them for months and months, seems not applicable here, or probably in general.

[Capitalist Pig]

You're defining something as Fe that, from reading more into Socionics, could very well be Ni-related, and in my case definitely has to do with adhering to some sensible facts and secondhand opinions about Ashton and SLEs, that is less Fe and more Te.

Morbi ornare, ipsum sit amet volutpat fermentum, nisl enim commodo magna, eu consectetur risus lectus vel sapien. Suspendisse ac lacus ac sem cursus dictum sit amet vel elit.

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Most likely, the idea that Te types are less inclined to understand people's personality and intentions after studying them for months and months, seems not applicable here, or probably in general.

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[Capitalist Pig]

Ashton & Expat are really the same person. They just don't want you to find out.

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[717495]

I feel the same way dawg, and I don't think it has to do with being socially isolated or a recluse from life at all. It's definitely what I've seen in all other ILIs, that vulnerability of playful interaction, understanding external emotions, perceiving the dynamic social conduct, social cues, etc. Confusion, confusion, confusion. I relate with you on that one 100%.

But I must say, this can only go so far. You have Fe ignoring as simply another piece of the Fe puzzle. PoLR never means being void or having a complete lack and disability of, etc. Everyone uses all the functions. Though for PoLR, it would appear where they're weak, all their larger vulnerabilities lie, where they're liable to be disliked and hurt, mentally, emotionally, physically etc.

[strrrng]

I'm not trying to one-up him, and I think there are many differences between us. Like for example he is fucked in the head, I am psychologically healthy. He gets off on manipulation, I get off on hot women. He has a band of followers who practically revere him, and I sit back and find it really REALLY funny. Most of them are virgins with no real life experience. It's hilarious. Ashton is like a god to them. dolphin, Allie, they've had their moments. More amongst them. It's really funny. CPig is less sycophantic.

I don't really care about gaining the upper hand. There's no upper hand to gain. We lead different lives. I don't even know where the hell he's going in life, and I know exactly where I'm going.

sigh... asserting you both as almost complete identicals and then saying stuff like this, is exactly what I was talking about. you're the mentally healthy person who went out of their way to disparage the internet manipulator.

[Capitalist Pig]

But I must say, this can only go so far. You have Fe ignoring as simply another piece of the Fe puzzle. PoLR never means being void or having a complete lack and disability of, etc. Everyone uses all the functions. Though for PoLR, it would appear where they're weak, all their larger vulnerabilities lie, where they're liable to be disliked and hurt, mentally, emotionally, physically etc.

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[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Capitalist Pig]

Yeah I agree. I think he's a dumb-ass, too.

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[717495]

And of course, I mentioned in the polr manifestations thread that people do sometimes compensate for it. I am def. not a recluse but I am never sure how I should deal with in the moment emotional expression. I mean yeah, I laugh at jokes, grin, smile, and play around affectionately with my friends, but I see that as more trying to use my weak but valued functions. But I can't at all understand how to make someone feel a certain way or if they are, the only thing I know to do is try to calm them down by being especially monotonous and unemotional and focus on a detached, reasonable outlook, or else I get mad and use a very sharp tone and come off as insensitive when I am trying to get an important point across that I feel strongly about. But that's the most I can do.

I agree, everyone uses every IM to a certain degree but it is about quantity of use coupled with quality of use. Your PoLR can be a place of utter ignorance, a place where you try to hide it because you know somehow you will look bad (too lazy to cite examples), or where you do the best you can to compromise appeasing those expecting it which often utilizes the 6th function IM. But you know that.

But it's one of the reasons why, as mentioned, just because say an ILI seems socially gregarious in a situation and is socially adjusted, it doesn't mean they don't have shitty Fe. Though there was certainly a time in my life where I was your stereotypical, socially inept person who most people stayed the hell away from because there were no positive emotional vibes or emotional vibes coming there. And people would insult me, especially some stuck up ESEs, and the most I would do would be to feign obliviousness or give you the most empty expression you can imagine. Over the years, I did a 180 but I think my type is just as much the same, I've just learned to adjust into a more normal, functional human being (and in result, I have an easier time naturally drawing Gammas to me in whatever social group I am in).

(I know this is going a bit off-topic so move it if you want, but whatever)

Yeah definitely. Don't really want to say anymore because off topic, but this really reminds me of myself a couple years ago, and how I can really come out more among my friends and Se dominants especially, into the wonderful social world. ILIs have these problems too, and they're much more illuminated by being vulnerable to the emotional context and dynamics, so you can't say it has nothing to do with Fe-PoLR. I still can't really grasp Fe related things, and I have to sort of just play along and let people know I care.

There is the least vulnerability to Fe when you're by yourself, so it's actually typical of ILIs to activate Fe when they're more in recluse, and create their own limited social standards, and when the need comes up, they could go crazy for a while.

Ignoring your PoLR among people is the likely case, because you don't want to draw to it any attention, and painfully second guess yourself, or whatever it is.

[xerx]

Well if you think about it, it's purely external dynamics.

That's the thing; Ashton doesn't type by the meaning or indication of the gesture, but simply the gesture itself as it falls into the framework of the theory.

The thing is, he doesn't use the expressions or movements in terms of "what they mean," as an Fe type would, but rather the actual movements themselves and how they are applicable to the theory.

I get what you're saying, that deals with external dynamic actions. But finding permanent correlations (static fields) between facts (externals) and areas of objective inquiry is external statics of fields. In other words . So it's just as possible to explain it away if he were SLE.



Trying to find those correlations inside an area that traditionally belongs to is classic dual seeking. The field of inquiry maybe dynamic, but his methods maybe static for all I know. And I can't think of a reason an LIE would care more about charting people's emotional expression, no matter how clinically, than something that hits closer to his quadra values.

I'm not questioning his type. I don't trust most of the information people write about themselves (or others report about them), so he could very well be LIE or another Gamma. I certainly haven't seen him enough on video. I'm just spreading some healthy skepticism.

It's a fairly simple thing, and seems to be at least reasonably accurate in practice, that EJ types, being the dynamic, rational, linear-energetic temperament, would tend to have sharper movements and manners of expressing themselves, and be relatively energetic, whereas IP types, being dynamic, irrational, "receptive-adaptive" temperament, would generally have slower, smoother movements and expressions. It's not really a leap of faith; it seems rather obvious, given that socionics describes how our minds focus, and considering that our minds control our bodies. While it's not a PERFECT correlation in practice, generally it's not a horrible assumption, and it can manifest VERY obviously in some people.

It basically comes down to making one very basic theoretical assumption (not a theoretical framework, but a functional assumption based on incidences of correlation) and observing it in practice. And it happens to be pretty clearly attributable to an "abstraction" of "external dynamics"

I can see your rational, but again, when you break what Ashton does down according to IM, it's really external dynamics more than anything.

It's not that simple. That's some consensus that a bunch of people agreed to on this forum for some reason. There are a ton of other possibilities. Would you believe that DarkAngelFireWolf69 associates sharp movements with result types and smooth movements with process types?

What stops sharp movements from being static and smooth movements from being dynamic?

etc.

[duality is cringe]

I get what you're saying, that deals with external dynamic actions. But finding permanent correlations (static fields) between facts (externals) and areas of objective inquiry is external statics of fields. In other words . So it's just as possible to explain it away if he were SLE.



Trying to find those correlations inside an area that traditionally belongs to is classic dual seeking. The field of inquiry maybe dynamic, but his methods maybe static for all I know. And I can't think of a reason an LIE would care more about charting people's emotional expression, no matter how clinically, than something that hits closer to his ds.

Clinically observing and detecting patterns in various *facial* expressions often triggers immediate subjective reactions/feelings - alot of which can be type related - from within the observer. Not at all contradictory to Fi DS, IMO.

[Shazaam]

Ashton, my dual? lol.

[Capitalist Pig]

HEY! Aren't you bored of reading this thread yet? Read about some motherfuckin' Molinari, yo.

[stanprollyright]

Ashton, my dual? lol.

Actually, that brings up a good point. Of all the IEIs here, none of them seem too close to Ashton, nor he to them. How do you explain that, Ezra, poli, and whoever else is on the SLE team?

[xerx]

Because clinically observing and detecting patterns in various *facial* expressions often triggers immediate subjective reactions/feelings - alot of which can be type related - from within the observer. Not at all contradictory to Fi DS, IMO.

No. I've seen it too many types in Serious quadras for it to be a coincidence. People I've typed as Te egos really are quite oblivious to that sort of thing and sort of expect a level of to be pre-existent between them and other people and understand others' reactions off of that. It's a very deep fissure between Fe and Fi seeking.

Feel free to disagree, because we're never going to convince each other.

Lol, are you honestly trying to say that making objective correlations is the realm of ? I think you're over-simplifying here.

Erm, see for yourself:

is generally associated with the ability to recognize logical consistency and correctness, generate and apply classifications and systems, organize systematic and conceptual understanding, see logical connections between things (including logical similarities, differences, and correlations) by means of instinctive feelings of validity, symmetry, and even beauty.

It is like common sense, in that it builds on one's expectations of reality, through a somewhat personal, though explicable, understanding of general truths and how they are manifested.

Not emotional. Just expressions. The discernible muscular movements of the face. That is quite all.

That's probably related to sensing. I can't concentrate for more than a second on something so detailed, and LIEs are generally more abstract than that.

How do you feel about SEE?

Sharp/smooth movements would require adequate operational definition (accompanied by empirical examples) so we know is actually meant by such words and in what context we mean them.

Right, let's not get into that stupid debate again. You know roughly what I mean.

[stanprollyright]

HEY! Aren't you bored of reading this thread yet? Read about some motherfuckin' Molinari, yo.

This made me think of Powerthirst

HEY!
Do you wanna feel SO CONSERVATIVE?
Try MOLINARI!
The economist for GRATUITOUS AMOUNTS OF LAISSEZ-FAIRE!

[duality is cringe]

No. I've seen it too many types in Serious quadras for it to be a coincidence. People I've typed as Te egos really are quite oblivious to that sort of thing and sort of expect a level of to be pre-existent between them and other people and base their expectations off of that. It's a very deep fissure between Fe and Fi seeking

Oblivious to what exactly? Te egos are hardly oblivious to their own feelings and reactions [or opinions] toward certain ppl/situations/subjects.

As far as expectations of pre-existent is concerned, that's probably something that applies to both / valuers to some extent, as I've often thought the same thing of valuers.

Te egos certainly know the dread and discomfort [as well as general sense of discord] that comes from being face to face with an beast when they see one, lol.

Feel free to disagree, because we're never going to convince each other.

I'll probably never understand why so many ppl think that a low probability of one person fully converting another to his/her point of view makes any attempt at discussion null and void and therefore unworthy of any investment.

And I don't think I want to either. Also, sorta makes me wonder about some ppls motives, lol.

[717495]

Actually, that brings up a good point. Of all the IEIs here, none of them seem too close to Ashton, nor he to them. How do you explain that, Ezra, poli, and whoever else is on the SLE team?

I already explained how and why Ashton gets along fine with IEIs, like strrrng, allie, dolphin, and crazedrat, mainly because he feeds off of their Fe/Ti tinted Ni conceptual explanations, another Fe creative he enjoys contact with, bionicgoat, and doesn't actually get along well with any ESIs, like Diana, april (even if she selftypes as EII), and had some short-lived conflict with marie84, another Fi dominant, and overall just not much chemistry between him and any of the few other Fi dominants here. That's much more noticeable than any sort of Fe-oriented dissatisfaction. Fi-Fe, usually short-lived and mostly unable to interact, on different social wavelengths. Maybe Ashton likes the more subtle Fe, so he types those two as Fi. Idk, Fe is still Fe. I'm not going to accept their typing of being Fi when they don't even know what correct Fi is, and just go along with Ashton's socionix Fi. They don't even know how to properly define it in Socionics terms, and will say its abstract with essences, and gut feeling. Just whatever they can think of at the moment, which is utterly just sort of Ni mindplay in my honest opinion (which is why I relate to everything they say).

Some IEIs don't like Ashton and don't want to be his dual. I don't like every SEE either. I'm more attracted to a certain type of SEE or ESI. I don't know why BnD cares anyway, since Ashton isn't gay.

[stanprollyright]

I already explained how and why Ashton gets along fine with IEIs, like strrrng, allie, dolphin, and crazedrat, mainly because he feeds off of their Fe/Ti tinted Ni conceptual explanations, another Fe creative he enjoys contact with, bionicgoat, and doesn't actually get along well with any ESIs, like Diana, april (even if she selftypes as EII), and had some short-lived conflict with marie84, another Fi dominant. Usually short-lived and non interactive, on different social wavelengths, because Ashton is oriented to an Fe style of interactions. Maybe he likes the more subtle Fe, so he types those two as Fi. Idk, Fe is still Fe. I'm not going to accept their typing of being Fi when they don't even know what correct Fi is, and just go along with Ashton's socionix Fi.

Some IEIs don't like Ashton and don't want to be his dual. I don't like every SEE either. I'm more attracted to a certain type of SEE or ESI. I don't know why BnD cares anyway, since Ashton isn't gay.

You are just retyping everyone to fit your conceptions. Besides, I don't want your third-party "observations" about other people's relationships. I want to hear it from the people who self-type as IEI, Ashton himself, etc. People actually involved in the relationships they're talking about. Feel free to post about your own relationship with Ashton, and not anyone else's. But, since your type is pretty questionable, what you say will be taken with a grain of salt.

[717495]

You are just retyping everyone to fit your conceptions. Besides, I don't want your third-party "observations" about other people's relationships. I want to hear it from the people who self-type as IEI, Ashton himself, etc. People actually involved in the relationships they're talking about. Feel free to post about your own relationship with Ashton, and not anyone else's. But, since your type is pretty questionable, what you say will be taken with a grain of salt.

Well, those two actually related to being Fe valuing when they first started posting, and I remember my first contact with Socionics, I read and read, and realized how much more Ni > Ne and Te > Ti I was. People kind of start to want to go on their own and develop their own too, question all the original material. We've all had trouble being completely sure of our type, and like to change. So I'm not strictly "retyping" a bunch of people. I think Fe was always obvious for those two, even before they got in the Fi mindset and started concocting new definitions. Even FDG typed himself ESTp for a while, which I thought was good back when I was lurking--and now I think it was always a much better choice, and think those original perceptions of the material (for the two IEIs) are better than these new overly creative, abstract ones. Can't say I can explain it with perfect logic. You asked for my opinion.

[stanprollyright]

Well, those two actually related to being Fe valuing when they first started posting, and I remember my first contact with Socionics, I read and read, and realized how much more Ni > Ne and Te > Ti I was. People kind of start to want to go on their own and develop their own too, question all the original material. We've all had trouble being completely sure of our type, and like to change. So I'm not strictly "retyping" a bunch of people. I think Fe was always obvious for those two, even before they got in the Fi mindset and started concocting new definitions. Even FDG typed himself ESTp for a while, which I thought was good back when I was lurking--and now I think it was always a much better choice, and think those original perceptions of the material (for the two IEIs) are better than these new overly creative, abstract ones. Can't say I can explain it with perfect logic. You asked for my opinion.

I was going to actually respond but I've completely lost my ability to take you seriously.

[717495]

I was going to actually respond but I've completely lost my ability to take you seriously.

I'm sorry to hear that, but at the same time I'm not surprised. Our whole attitude between each other has been a negative one. I wouldn't mind if you chose to stop addressing me altogether.

[Galen]

The operational characteristics of people as objects

Could you clarify what this means?

[717495]

Ashton, a self-typing isn't an "objective fact." People change them all the time, and have different opinions of others. Just because you agree with the same people you gave them to, doesn't make you automatically correct. It is "socionix" like I said. Simply put however, from everything I can see, you get along much better with Fe types, and I don't think you and april are anything semi-dual like. I don't think she really cares much for you or understands your ways personally, nor do these other Fi dominants, or most of the gammas you move out of gamma. Some IEIs will be picky toward you because they're you're dual, but your interactions with them are much stronger and much more based around a similar preference for thought. Same goes for the LSIs and EIEs. Additionally, I must clarify--diana is an ESI, has typed herself that way for a long time. She's considered LSI here and there because of tests, but doesn't actually hold to that typing. Similarly how I don't hold strongly to other typings except for ILI. Her opinions are a lot more consistent than mine, however.

[717495]

The person can speak for themselves what their opinions are.

Direct observation of what's been said is good enough for me, but maybe you're not as clued in as I thought. I don't mind other people stating their opinions and disagreeing with me on the matter, if I am somehow contradicting them.

[stanprollyright]

Ashton, a self-typing isn't an "objective fact." People change them all the time, and have different opinions of others. Just because you agree with the same people you gave them to, doesn't make you automatically correct. It is "socionix" like I said. Simply put however, from everything I can see, you get along much better with Fe types, and I don't think you and april are anything semi-dual like. I don't think she really cares much for you or understands your ways personally, nor do these other Fi dominants, or most of the gammas you move out of gamma. Some IEIs will be picky toward you because they're you're dual, but your interactions with them are much stronger and much more based around a similar preference for thought. Same goes for the LSIs and EIEs. Additionally, I must clarify--diana is an ESI, has typed herself that way for a long time. She's considered LSI here and there because of tests, but doesn't actually hold to that typing. Similarly how I don't hold strongly to other typings except for ILI. Her's is much a lot more consistent than mine, however.

This is a whole mess of Straw Man, meaningless speculation, and self-contradiction.

[717495]

This is a whole mess of Straw Man, meaningless speculation, and self-contradiction.

It's simply observation on my part. All I'm going to do is continue and watch him get along well with Betas... even the ones he doesn't type as his dual, and there's not really much that could change that. I don't get along well with Alphas or Betas, but I get along fine with Gammas. I happen to have an opinion of mine and his place in the spectrum of good and bad relations. Rick, Expat, and others hold to the same opinion that he's a Beta... here's Rick's website. Ashton might type people exactly what their selftype is to sound more agreeable, most of the time, but that doesn't mean its correct, or that their relations reflect that. I've noticed he's just sort of lazy about it and doesn't actually care to do much investigation, except for quoting vague terms and descriptions others have made up--more Ni-seeking behavior. I don't know why crazedrat said he has rationale for all those thousands of famous typings.

Like I said, I urge people who keep wanting to pick at my reasons, to just try to understand the difference between serious/merry Fi vs Fe interaction--look at Rick, Expat, Niffweeds typelists, which are variably similar in methodology, have the same actual terms, and don't copy the same typings because of easy-to-grasp faces or impressionistic feelings of face muscles, whatever it is, and read the forum history and their posts. It's actually a classical Socionics methodology and it makes great sense. In case you're still confused why I hold to similar opinions of these people, is because they're known as very good Socionicists, have been voted upon as the best to ever come here, people greatly miss Expat, and they have all observed Ashton and have typed him. I am sort of kicking him out of Gamma in a way, but so are all those others he wants to kick out. So I personally find there are more people that would have agreed with me, and who would have been able to explain why using these same ideas, and how those two females Ashton types as gamma aren't actually Fi valuing. I'm not going to continue to argue with someone who doesn't even have an opinion.

Source it or shut up. Nobody wants your hearsay.

Obviously I'm not making it up. I've been quoting the same ideas of others this whole time, its all collaborative classical Socionics. It's just not based on this current gilly-dominated confusion of a forum, where nobody else wants to explain their opinions. I respect peoples opinions, if they can be explained out in words, and not some implicit ideology.

[xerx]

Oblivious to what exactly? Te egos are hardly oblivious to their own feelings and reactions [or opinions] toward certain ppl/situations/subjects.

As far as expectations of pre-existent is concerned, that's probably something that applies to both / valuers to some extent, as I've often thought the same thing of valuers.

What I mean is that deals with emotional reactions as distinct, objective entities, irrelevant of the actual distance between two people. Emotions are understood in and of themselves, as something that may, but doesn't necessarily have to, belong to a context defined by the relationship (i.e. static field) tying people together.

comes in to define the system of explicit relationships that was created as a result of valuers interacting.

Te egos certainly know the dread and discomfort [as well as general sense of discord] that comes from being face to face with an beast when they see one, lol.

I feel the same withdrawn dread around a few people at work who spout off too much goofy energy, so I definitely feel ya thar.

I'll probably never understand why so many ppl think that a low probability of one person fully converting another to his/her point of view makes any attempt at discussion null and void and therefore unworthy of any investment.

And I don't think I want to either. Also, sorta makes me wonder about some ppls motives, lol.

I never implied the discussion would be over, just that we'll never convince each other.