Ashton: SLE-Ti 8w7 sx/sp

[xerx]

How does this qualify for Anything Goes? It's about someone's type.

It should be about someone's type.

[Gilly]

Well then please just move the dickwaving. It started as a thread about a type.

[stanprollyright]

If this thread doesn't produce any real arguments for or against Ashton's type in the next 5 posts, I'm moving it to anything goes. That's notwithstanding the last 7 pages of character attacks, irrelevant posturing and socionics dick waving.

The whole thread or just the off-topic stuff like in poli's thread?

EDIT: Looks like this is the 5th...

[Gilly]

Ok here's my argument for Ashton as LIE: (posting this before it gets moved, I'm editing with my argument as we speak)

Te dominant:

Ashton owns a compendium of people who are typed, not using a comprehensive theoretical outline or an overall attempt to place people within a framework, but rather primarily by their patterns in speech and physical movement as they are directly related by the core basics of the theory. He uses a sort of "checklist" of characteristics to identify people and bases his conclusions on the gross amalgam of their most obvious characteristics, rather than determining how they fit into a particular type as a whole; this is a Te>Ti approach.

EJ temperament:

If you see him on cam, Ashton has the characteristic rigidity of movements, physical awkwardness, disconnected rapidity of facial expressions, and hyper-stereotypically mechanical feel of an EJ.

Ni ego:

Ashton relates his thoughts and observations in an impressionistic manner that is characteristic of, and almost exclusive to, Ni egos, and that one rarely hears from SLEs, like Merky or Herzy.

Devalued Fe:

Ashton responds poorly to Fe; he is capable of "rolling" with a social atmosphere to a certain extent, but when someone makes observations about his apparent emotional reactions, he usually reacts in a clumsily bemused manner, usually giving an answer to the effect of "I was just saying what I was thinking about..." This is not really typical of SLEs, who are quick to pick up on social cues when they are confronted and tend to "roll with the blows" very well, whereas this kind of thing generally stops Ashton in his tracks. Again, think of mercutio or Herzy. He also has little to no interest in the image people have of him; while he reacts negatively to social criticism, and does the brand of limited social posturing that any male with testicles and without significant social anxiety participates in by default, he has virtually no interest in what most people think of him beyond being treated with the same respect that he sees as his right as a member of the community.


Personally I see the argument for Beta, and used to uphold it myself, but since getting to know him better, I see Ashton as not being nearly deliberate enough in what is perceived as his "attempts" at "leadership" or group formation, and surprisingly unaware of/indifferent to the social position he occupies; if he has accumulated any kind of following, it is a biproduct of his personal pursuits and willingness to share and defend his views rather than a true cathectic undertaking.

[Ezra]

"definitely an EIE OR an 8 thing," k, whatever. I skimmed and missed "or 8." But, I'm not the one quoting niffweed and using an imaginary "gamma exodus" as evidence.

So socionics workshop just appeared out of thin air, did it?

Whether or not Ashton's "band of followers" actually exists the way you say it does, you realize your examples of them are 3 Gammas, right?

None of them is a Gamma, this is the point. No one who hangs around with him long term is a Gamma.

This is sad and pathetic. Like do any of these people have a life off the forum? Do any of YOU have a life off the forum?

[xerx]

Well then please just move the dickwaving. It started as a thread about a type.

I'll wait a little while longer.

[stanprollyright]

None of them is a Gamma, this is the point. No one who hangs around with him long term is a Gamma.

Sounds like a circular-logic justification. Ashton is not Gamma --> he shouldn't get along with gammas --> the self-typed gammas he gets along with aren't gammas -->Ashton isn't gamma because he doesn't get along with gammas.

[Ezra]

Sounds like a circular-logic justification. Ashton is not Gamma --> he shouldn't get along with gammas --> the self-typed gammas he gets along with aren't gammas -->Ashton isn't gamma because he doesn't get along with gammas.

Another Ti type. Allegedly Ti PoLR!? Ha!

[Gilly]

Another Ti type. Allegedly Ti PoLR!? Ha!

Yes, he must be Ti ego because he is capable of pointing out basic fallacies. Get your head out of your ass, pony boy.

[stanprollyright]

Another Ti type. Allegedly Ti PoLR!? Ha!

So you're gonna retype me now to deflect the argument? What a great tactic.

You're allegedly Fi-PoLR, right? Are you completely unable to tell whether you like something or not?

[squark]

So socionics workshop just appeared out of thin air, did it?

I don't know who started it, or when, but people come and go. I still see gammas here, and many non-gammas there, so not sure what point you're trying to make. No REAL gamma would stay here or some shit? Don't go down that road, it's just dumb.

[stanprollyright]

I don't know who started it, or when, but people come and go. I still see gammas here, and many non-gammas there, so not sure what point you're trying to make. No REAL gamma would stay here or some shit? Don't go down that road, it's just dumb.

Socionics Workshop is niffweed's, but niffweed is still here, so that point is kind of moot...

[Azeroffs]

...

OMGZ.. Reasoning!

Straight-up, that's enough to at least say that I've slid from thinking SLE to just plain.. I have no idea. Some things you said may or may not be related (I'm not so sure that a Ti type wouldn't take the approach you said was a Te approach to typing), but there are some points that, if true, would make me think LIE > SLE.

Now was that so hard .

[Gilly]

Actually Isha and I created the original Socionics Workshop, the only members of which were ourselves, Expat, Rick, and, later, a few others, including niffweed. The current one is a ghastly abortion of the former, which was essentially the engine that refined this forum's conception of basic Socionics precepts.

[Gilly]

No problem.

[Gilly]

I think I have created by far the most comprehensible and coherent argument in terms of accurately characterising Ashton as any one type. I wish someone would challenge me without deferring to niffweed.

[Gilly]

OMGZ.. Reasoning!

Straight-up, that's enough to at least say that I've slid from thinking SLE to just plain.. I have no idea. Some things you said may or may not be related (I'm not so sure that a Ti type wouldn't take the approach you said was a Te approach to typing), but there are some points that, if true, would make me think LIE > SLE.

I don't think anything I've said can be seriously contested. You should come to tinychat some time when he is on there and see what he is like; I think you will see, if you approach him without bias, that he is pretty obviously not SLE.

Now was that so hard .

Everything is hard until I get myself worked up enough to give a shit.

[717495]

I wish someone would challenge me without deferring to niffweed.

Jus' curious, gilly, what do you type niffweed?

[Gilly]

Jus' curious, gilly, what do you type niffweed?

Honestly I don't have a strong opinion. A large part of our interactions are consistent with supervision, but his interaction style tends to seem Fe valuing to me, even if he is not a hyper-typical Alpha superficially. To be frank, at this point, I would probably have to meet him in real life to give a strong opinion.

[Gilly]

Ok, just compare how much of niffweed's description is total hot air compared to my very concise, to-the-point analysis, and you will see who actually knows what they are talking about.

[717495]

Oh alright. Some Fe valuer maybe. What do you type me as? You go by temperament much? because I see it as sort of inconsistent (like you and Ashton relate the most to EP I think). I relate the most to IP.

[Gilly]

Oh alright. Some Fe valuer maybe. What do you type me as? You go by temperament much? because I see it as sort of inconsistent. I relate strongly to IP.

I don't go so much strictly by temperament as I do by rational/irrational and introvert/extrovert; with some people, like Ashton, their temperament is completely obvious, just in terms of their overall energy, movements, etc, but with others, especially those whose subtype doesn't correspond to their first function, you have to break it down a bit.

I think you are probably an irrational type. However you seem rather amorphous to me, so I don't have a strong impression of your type. If I went purely by VI, I would most likely say SEI, but my overall impression of you is not strong enough to give anything like a solid answer to your question.

[Gilly]

Actually I relate vastly more to EJ temperament in terms of the mental functioning and general energy levels, especially in light of being Fe dominant, although admittedly I am more laid back than a lot of EJs.

[717495]

If we go by type description, I'm either an ILI or ILE, with identification with more ILI descriptions. Keep that in mind. I think SEI is a pretty bad typing of me

[stanprollyright]

Oh alright. Some Fe valuer maybe. What do you type me as? You go by temperament much? because I see it as sort of inconsistent (like you and Ashton relate the most to EP I think). I relate the most to IP.

I see temperaments as something that you can't really type yourself with. Since they're completely relative, you need to be able to compare people side-by-side in a more objective manner than you can do with yourself vs. other people. So I think it's a common thing for people to "identify" with a temperament that doesn't fit them, but yet a decent typing tool if typing someone else.

[Gilly]

I didn't say you were SEI, or that I thought you were SEI. I said if I were to go purely by VI, I would most likely say SEI. I don't think it's a horrible typing, as you seem to pay reasonable attention to Fe, are more IP than any temperament, and don't seem to value Se/Ni to me, but I'm aware that you'll deny it to no end because you are intellectual and such, which you probably refuse to chalk up to simply having a relatively high IQ.

I'll reiterate, though: I have no strong opinion on your type. Let's leave it at that until we meet, oki doki?

[Capitalist Pig]

dammit gilly your sig messes up my self-namesearch

this thread is boring talk about me moar plz

[xerx]

Te dominant:

Ashton owns a compendium of people who are typed, not using a comprehensive theoretical outline or an overall attempt to place people within a framework, but rather primarily by their patterns in speech and physical movement as they are directly related by the core basics of the theory. He uses a sort of "checklist" of characteristics to identify people and bases his conclusions on the gross amalgam of their most obvious characteristics, rather than determining how they fit into a particular type as a whole; this is a Te>Ti approach.

Really? Gauging people's personalities by patterns in their speech and physical movements is related to I would think.

Logical types don't keep track of any of these things, because while the gesture is external, it's meaning is internal. There's too much subjective reading into and interpretation that depends on context, etc. etc.

Even Gamma NTs, who like to observe people's behaviors don't keep that much track of physical movements or speech patterns, and just stick to the actual quantifiable behaviors being performed. That's niffweed in a nutshell.

Additionally, it's possible for sensors to have an easier time tracking these things.

On a side note, that's why NTs are dorks in highschool, where this shit matters.

[Azeroffs]

I don't think anything I've said can be seriously contested. You should come to tinychat some time when he is on there and see what he is like; I think you will see, if you approach him without bias, that he is pretty obviously not SLE.

My first assumption was that he was ENTj actually. I hate the 'obvious' talk. If it was obvious, then obviously no one would be contesting it. 95% of the time, a person's type is not obvious.

[717495]

Yeah, also you're sort of arguing against Expat's typing as Te dominant, when you put Ashton as Te dominant, in this line of reasoning of what is Ti vs Te, gilly. It makes more sense to look at the "comprehensive theoretical framework" in context of being an intuitive type, where as Beta STs who are less theoretically based like Abbie, Ezra, Ashton, etc. will use more of a concrete, factoid, list like thing, and essentially feed off of Ni dominants explanation of the concepts--how Ashton likes when dolphin, allie, archon etc. explain in-depth concepts so he can agree with them. Same thing Expat and niffweed does, is explain in-depth concepts (the N(i) portion of the theory) and rely on a more "comprehensive theoretical framework," and Ezra likes it too.

Anyway, I'm still unsatisfied. I think Ashton shows Ti, merry values, EP-ness, Se dominance. Might not be your stereotypical ESTp, forum pushover, but not much of an ENTj. I dislike the ideology that goes along with what an Ni type is. You're more convinced that most people I see as Beta and have developed Beta tinged Ti, are Ni egos. Expat and Rick, or whoever else I think knows, wouldn't agree with that.

[Gilly]

Yeah, also you're sort of arguing against Expat's typing as Te dominant, when you put Ashton as Te dominant, in this line of reasoning of what is Ti vs Te, gilly. It makes more sense to look at the "comprehensive theoretical framework" in context of being an intuitive type, where as Beta STs who are less theoretically based like Abbie, Ezra, Ashton, etc. will use more of a concrete, factoid, list like thing, and essentially feed off of Ni dominants explanation of the concepts--how Ashton likes when dolphin, allie, archon etc. explain in-depth concepts so he can agree with them. Same thing Expat and niffweed does, is explain in-depth concepts (the N(i) portion of the theory) and rely on a more "comprehensive theoretical framework," and Ezra likes it too.

Anyway, I'm still unsatisfied. I think Ashton shows Ti, merry values, EP-ness, Se dominance. Might not be your stereotypical ESTp, forum pushover, but not much of an ENTj. I dislike the ideology that goes along with what an Ni type is. You're more convinced that most people I see as Beta and have developed Beta tinged Ti, are Ni egos. Expat and Rick, or whoever else I think knows, wouldn't agree with that.

First off, don't speak for Expat OR Rick, and don't act like they give your words any more weight.

Second off, don't cite Abbie as LSI, because she self-types as LSE and I happen to agree. I tend to doubt Ezra as SLE somewhat, too, but I'm uncertain on his type.

Finally, we clearly practice different versions of the theory, so I don't know why you're even bothering any more.

[Gilly]

My first assumption was that he was ENTj actually. I hate the 'obvious' talk. If it was obvious, then obviously no one would be contesting it. 95% of the time, a person's type is not obvious.

I don't think the type is obvious; all I'm saying is that the things I've said about Ashton are pretty much undeniably true. Whether or not they relate directly to Ashton's being LIE is a matter of judgment that I am personally decided on, but I leave to you for your own purposes.

[stanprollyright]

Really? Gauging people's personalities by patterns in their speech and physical movements is related to I would think.

Logical types don't keep track of any of these things, because while the gesture is external, it's meaning is internal. There's too much subjective reading into and interpretation that depends on context, etc. etc.

Even Gamma NTs, who like to observe people's behaviors don't keep that much track of physical movements or speech patterns, and just stick to the actual quantifiable behaviors being performed. That's niffweed in a nutshell.

Again, you could make a good argument for EIE, but SLE is kind of silly.

And comparing him to niffweed doesn't do much good, no one even suggests they are even the same type, and I think we can all agree that neither of them are good representatives of their respective types, whatever they may be.

[717495]

First off, don't speak for Expat OR Rick, and don't act like they give your words any more weight.

Second off, don't cite Abbie as LSI, because she self-types as LSE and I happen to agree. I tend to doubt Ezra as SLE somewhat, too, but I'm uncertain on his type.

Finally, we clearly practice different versions of the theory, so I don't know why you're even bothering any more.

Well at least I know now you type Expat as a Ti type, Ezra is loosing his SLE credibility now, niffweed probably values Fe, and I might be an SEI. Can't wait for your next typelist.

[717495]

I think Ezra's just trying to put it out there for people to observe and think for themselves, to see if you really are a merry type like older Socionicists have said about you. I think people can do this without having knowledge of someone's selftyping. Just notice how well he compliments with other Betas, partakes in the playful banter and social silliness, and feeds off of environments of emotional spontaneity like stickam, likes reactions out of people, clearly addresses he doesn't like when he can't read the emotion of someone, gets along pretty well with Alphas. This is stuff you can readily observe, scattered throughout your interactions. If you selftyped as SLE, most people would eventually learn to accept it without looking at the facts, agreeing and following in your wake, just like how they're doing with LIE.

So there's really not much else to say.

[Gilly]

Really? Gauging people's personalities by patterns in their speech and physical movements is related to I would think.

Well if you think about it, it's purely external dynamics.

Logical types don't keep track of any of these things, because while the gesture is external, it's meaning is internal. There's too much subjective reading into and interpretation that depends on context, etc. etc.

That's the thing; Ashton doesn't type by the meaning or indication of the gesture, but simply the gesture itself as it falls into the framework of the theory.

Even Gamma NTs, who like to observe people's behaviors don't keep that much track of physical movements or speech patterns, and just stick to the actual quantifiable behaviors being performed. That's niffweed in a nutshell.

The thing is, he doesn't use the expressions or movements in terms of "what they mean," as an Fe type would, but rather the actual movements themselves and how they are applicable to the theory. It's a fairly simple thing, and seems to be at least reasonably accurate in practice, that EJ types, being the dynamic, rational, linear-energetic temperament, would tend to have sharper movements and manners of expressing themselves, and be relatively energetic, whereas IP types, being dynamic, irrational, "receptive-adaptive" temperament, would generally have slower, smoother movements and expressions. It's not really a leap of faith; it seems rather obvious, given that socionics describes how our minds focus, and considering that our minds control our bodies. While it's not a PERFECT correlation in practice, generally it's not a horrible assumption, and it can manifest VERY obviously in some people.

It basically comes down to making one very basic theoretical assumption (not a theoretical framework, but a functional assumption based on incidences of correlation) and observing it in practice. And it happens to be pretty clearly attributable to an "abstraction" of "external dynamics"

Additionally, it's possible for sensors to have an easier time tracking these things.

I can see your rational, but again, when you break what Ashton does down according to IM, it's really external dynamics more than anything.

[Gilly]

poli as much as you and Niffweed would like to believe it, Betas are not the only quadra that can have healthy social interaction. You two are just fucking hermits. Your conception of an "Ni lifestyle" has nothing to do with Socionics types, but rather social withdrawal, which is by no means exclusive or wholly attributable to type. I think if you got out more, you would find that some LIEs and ILIs are rather sociable and gregarious.

[stanprollyright]

I think Ezra's just trying to put it out there for people to observe and think for themselves, to see if you really are a merry type.

I sincerely doubt that was Ezra's intent, based on his behavior in this thread.

Just notice how well he compliments with other Betas, partakes in the playful banter and social silliness, and feeds off of environments of emotional spontaneity like stickam, likes reactions out of people, gets along pretty well with Alphas. This is stuff you can readily observe, scattered throughout your interactions.

What are you talking about. I've seen no such examples. Can you point me to them?

I think people can do this without having knowledge of someone's selftyping...If you selftyped as SLE, most people would eventually learn to accept it without looking at the facts, agreeing and following in your wake, just like how they're doing with LIE.

Yeah, that's because it's near impossible to have a really good and correct understanding of the theory and still mistype yourself. To question someone's self-type is to question their understanding as well.

[717495]

I sincerely doubt that was Ezra's intent, based on his behavior in this thread.

I'm just going by what Ezra told us was his intention. I don't think that means that wasn't necessarily his only intention, but I doubt I know what else it would be.

poli as much as you and Niffweed would like to believe it, Betas are not the only quadra that can have healthy social interaction. You two are just fucking hermits. Your conception of an "Ni lifestyle" has nothing to do with Socionics types, but rather social withdrawal, which is by no means exclusive or wholly attributable to type. I think if you got out more, you would find that some LIEs and ILIs are rather sociable and gregarious.

It's a Socionics term to describe Fi vs Fe valuing. Serious and merry. Obviously Fe-PoLRs are going to have a large amount of merry interaction missing from their lives, and usually rely on the serious. LIEs on the other hand are typically much more rationally energetic, focus much more on efficiency of action, much dryer serious conduct, don't really have a strong focus on continuing these sort of hobbies and putting in extensive time and fun into non-profit interaction or development, rather I see Ashton as more of the bored, spontaneous, opinionated, Fe-stirring guy with a logical ideology to prove and spread around. Not much a rational type in my eyes. So as much as I'd like to just accept people's self-typings, I'd much more accept him as an SLE, than how I've seen how real LIEs are. (I think some names for LIEs were Pioneer... er what else). Anyway, as much as you'd like to think I don't have Ni and I'm an SEI, or whatever, I just think your conception of Ni is limited, and you don't understand the types. Most will agree I don't value Ne. I don't seek it, I don't use it. Your concept of supervision even seems a bit off, with ILIs disliking you or being indifferent, ignoring you, possibly seeing you as troublesome, where as you've sort of explained here and there how much you like ILIs. It's actually the opposite, like you EIE, see us ILI, the supervised, as troublesome and trying to figure out what's wrong with us and so we'll get things right, where as us ILIs can't really ignore you because of Fe-PoLR, so were forced to kind of see where we can get in and find a way that you might ever be pleased (which always proves ineffective, and the supervisor dislikes it even more.) Anyway, that's always how I've seen supervision with other EIEs, and I'm pretty sure you're an EIE.

[stanprollyright]

It's a Socionics term to describe Fi vs Fe. Serious and merry. Obviously Fe-PoLRs are going to have a large amount of merry interaction missing from their lives, and usually rely on the serious. LIEs on the other hand are typically much more rationally energetic, focus much more on efficiency of action, much dryer serious conduct, don't really have a strong focus on continuing these sort of hobbies and putting in extensive time and fun into non-profit interaction or development, rather I see Ashton as more of the bored, spontaneous, opinionated, Fe-stirring guy with a logical ideology to prove and spread around. Not much a rational type in my eyes. So as much as I'd like to just accept people's self-typings, I'd much more accept him as an SLE, than how I've seen how real LIEs are. (I think some names for LIEs were Pioneer... er what else). Anyway, as much as you'd like to think I don't have Ni and I'm an SEI, or whatever, I just think your conception of Ni is limited, and you don't understand the types. Your concept of supervision even seems a bit off, with ILIs disliking you or being indifferent, ignoring you, possibly seeing you as troublesome, where as you've sort of explained how much you like ILIs. It's actually the opposite, like you EIE, see us ILI, the supervised, as troublesome and trying to figure out what's wrong with us and so we'll get things right, where as us ILIs can't really ignore you because of Fe-PoLR, so were forced to kind of see where we can get in and see if you can ever be pleased (which always proves ineffective, and the supervisor dislikes it even more.) Anyway, that's always how I've seen supervision with other EIEs, and I'm pretty sure you're an EIE.

There's more Fe in this post than I've ever seen Ashton display. Granted, he and I haven't been around that long together, but still.