What's the most evil quadra?

[xerx]

There was no such thing as "The Holocaust", there was a mass elimination of all sorts of human beings considered sub-human, not only jews and the 6 million figure is just a big LOL way too high, there were not more than 1 million jews murdered, which is already a high enough number.

But if you speak of 'the holocaust' you have to take into account and speak for the lives of communists, homosexuals, insane people, people with severe illnesses and deformities, gypsies, and all those germans who were against the regime. Then you can call this mass murder an 'holocaust' if you will, but jews have long enough exploited this term and the 6 million fraud in order to become untouchable in society, if you say anything criticizing them, you´re a 'nazi anti-semite', this is just ridiculous.

I meant every civilian in Nazi territory who was forcibly removed then killed by the Nazi regime from 1933-1945. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Creepy-male]

ILE evil is about wanting to experiment, create something new, and acquire as much knowledge as possible while ignoring social conventions about right and wrong, eschewing traditional morality, or not caring about how they're hurting others. A few of the Nazi scientists who experimented on still-living people during the holocaust may have had this motivation.

There's a raid boss in World of Warcraft who is this. His domain is called "Professor Putricide's Laboratory of Alchemical Horrors and Fun". It's quite possibly the most disturbing part of the current endgame, in my opinion.

Next question: what does an evil Alpha SF look like?

EDIT

But I guess that's more of a mad scientist thing than, say, the Japanese/Nazi scientists committing atrocities on living humans. I have a hard time viewing the mad scientist archetype as being evil, however.

[consentingadult]

Do you have an example?

The Dutch (at large) not lifting a finger during WWII which allowed the Germans to deport the Amsterdam Jews with an ease unparalleled anywhere else in occupied Europe. (This despite the often acclaimed strike in Februari 1941 February strike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...ish_death_toll

[Gilly]

Gamma does not have the aristocratic paternalism I am talking about.

What makes it aristocratic? Generally Aristocrats are more self-contained as groups. They see their views as being applicable mostly only within the range of the group; they know what's best for them, and that is generally all they care about. Contrast to Democrats, who have a more universalist approach, viewing everyone on a level playing field.

[Sol]

if war, robbery, rape, lie and exploitation are evil, then it's Beta of cause

[Simon Ssmall]

if war, robbery, rape, lie and exploitation are evil, then it's Beta of cause

Stereotipicly speaking robbery,lie and exploitation would probably lie more on the Gamma side .

[crazedrat]

since when do betas rape? were you raped by a beta or something?

[Wynch]

Aristocrats are generally more polarized, thus I'd say they're more likely to be "evil".

Despite voting for everyone, I find this to be an interesting and reasonable answer.

[Simon Ssmall]

since when do betas rape? were you raped by a beta or something?

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ing-betas.html

[leckysupport]

Stereotipicly speaking robbery,lie and exploitation would probably lie more on the Gamma side .

Not exactly imo. First of all I wouldn't count lying as something type/Quadra related.

Depending on what you mean by robbery you might be able to call it Gamma. If you mean robbery as in sticking someone up the street for a one time reward (no matter how large) then I would definitely say that is not Gamma. But stealing something which would translate into a stable long-term profit like farming land which can be protected when acquired would be Gamma.

I have a hard time relating exploitation with Gamma simply because it runs too much into the face of Fi. Also this sort of dick-ish behaviour draws attention (something which is more of a Beta/Alpha thing) and could possibly lead to unintended negative consequences (something which could be considered 'short sightedness').

But then again I've seen some sort of exploitation behaviour in SEEs, but I've also seen it in pretty much every Quadra... idk.

[leckysupport]

This thread is fucking stupid, THESE ARE ALL BASELESS BLANKET STATEMENTS

Why do you say that?

[Simon Ssmall]

Not exactly imo. First of all I wouldn't count lying as something type/Quadra related.

Oh geez, im not being serious, nobody could be serious in this thread

[Gilly]

This thread is fucking stupid, THESE ARE ALL BASELESS BLANKET STATEMENTS

Welcome to the theory, dipstick. Why do you even bother entering these threads?

[Gilly]

Ok I'll just say it already

Most consistently and obviously Evil quadra: Beta.

Stick me on a moutain and crack a lightning bolt behind me, please.

[leckysupport]

There's still no agreement on what is even considered "Alpha" or "Delta", not to mention grouping grand swathes of people hasn't really worked when it comes to concluding a generalized pattern.

Yeah... fair enough.

nobody could be serious in this thread

Well I found a way, so you're wrong.

[Gilly]

sigh

So you dislike your generalization, why don't you talk about it instead of misdirecting your angst like a child.

[Gilly]

I don't want a pissing contest.

The reason I don't give examples is because, to me, the "flaws" of each quadra are obvious if you look at their archetypal roles, both in terms of the functions they value and devalue, and their place in quadra progression. I honestly feel like it's a fault of your own for not understanding these things, and petty of you to come in and demand to be spoonfed when, to the people discussing such things, the rationale is self-explanatory, because we actually know about the theory we're discussing. It's presumptuous of you, not being especially well-versed in the theory, to waltz in and demand that everything be explicated, especially with the air of assuming that you know you are pointing out an "obvious" flaw in the discussion. It's counter-productive and annoying.

[Gilly]

I'm saying its foolish for you to expect to be spoonfed when you've been here for over 3 years.

I have never said, implied, or believed anything about a "privelaged few" on this board. Do you see me excluding anyone who has an actual viewpoint from discussion? I expect people to do exactly what I did: learn the theory. Now, if you asked about something in particular that you didn't understand, then I would gladly explain. But when you march in here making your own blanket generalizations about things not making sense when you haven't taken the time to grasp them, and expect the people who are having a discussion to stop and explain everything to you, all I can do is roll my eyes. You are not the center of the universe.

I'm well aware that I'm not the center of the universe, either. But I'm also not going to stand around while you pollute interesting threads with your demands to be intellectually coddled. So please either ask an actual question, or stop. I'm not interested in bickering with you.

[Gilly]

Examples have been given. Read the fucking thread.

I'm not pissed that you ASKED for anything. I'm pissed that you come in denouncing everything with an air of presumption without doing a damn thing yourself. If that's your idea of asking for an example, you are fucking autistic.

I wasn't looking for a pissing contest a second ago, but if you'd like one now, feel free to continue down the path you're on.

[Gilly]

I'd like to make a few minor revisions, actually:

Alpha: Carelessly self-involved evil
Beta: Recklessly self-consumed evil
Gamma: Greedily self-interested evil
Delta: Apathetically self-preserving evil

[Gilly]

Also can we all take a moment to appreciate how beautifully LokiVanguard has illustrated my point about willfull ignorance.

[Gilly]

So what's your point? That it's all crap? Or that you are the one tired, brave individual, ever pushing the delusional masses on to come to serious conclusions about a theory that is admittedly unscientific in its entirety? What the fuck do you want, brain scans? Get the fuck out of here already. If you're so fucking stupid that you can't see past the minutia that people disagree upon, and glimpse that there is obvious overriding truth to the statements I've made, then you are wasting your time anyways. The theoretical concepts behind what we discuss are inherent in human thinking, and easily interpretable in movies, fiction, and history. If you need me to fucking spoonfeed you functional definitions and illustrate every step of the way to pass that through your addled brain, then why the fuck did you bother studying the theory in the first place? What the fuck are you doing here? Go drink some beer or something.

[Gilly]

I'm sorry that everyone else here is smarter than you.

[leckysupport]

As well, I see often that Deltas don't really confront their own evils.

IMO confronting your own evils requires you be aware of your moral conscience, something which I believe is related to Fi. So I wouldn't say Deltas don't really confront their own evils as a general rule.

[Gilly]

Your "moral conscience" doesn't have anything to do with your internal demons; if anything, it covers them up and condemns the outside world by projecting feelings of insufficiency, inferiority, and fear.

I suppose parts of one's "morality" could, if harnessed properly, be used to peer into ones own insecurities, demons, etc, by being willing to confront in oneself what one normally condemns, but in and of themselves they are usually no more than barriers.

[Gilly]

That's a good explication of "internal statics," I think, aixelsyd.

[Skeptic]

I honestly hope no one actually considers this topic a standard for 'how quadras are evil'. I thought it was a joke, or at least a stereotypical gauge of actions that perfect quadra members may commit to.

That would be an extremist outlook on socionics, not very different from racism, which places generalizations on people based on how they look as opposed to a general outline of their supposed personality.

[leckysupport]

Your "moral conscience" doesn't have anything to do with your internal demons;

Then what does?

Don't your internal demons create morally negative thoughts and feelings? And isn't the ability to monitor and understand those thoughts and feelings partially what "moral conscience" is about?

if anything, it covers them up and condemns the outside world by projecting feelings of insufficiency, inferiority, and fear.

I guess it can be used (and is) to do this. But for some reason most established religions tend to go towards teasing out internal demons, so moral conscience isn't necessarily about what you've described.

[Gilly]

I honestly hope no one actually considers this topic a standard for 'how quadras are evil'. I thought it was a joke, or at least a stereotypical gauge of actions that perfect quadra members may commit to.

That would be an extremist outlook on socionics, not very different from racism, which places generalizations on people based on how they look as opposed to a general outline of their supposed personality.

Well the assessments made here are archetypal, rather than practical, in nature. Not really things you want to judge people by. Although they do tend to represent, albeit in extreme form, the rather typical faults of unhealthy members of the quadras.

[Gilly]

Then what does?

Uhhh...your demons? I'm not sure what you're asking. Moral conscience is built up around what we believe about the world; not all beliefs have to do with our demons, though some may.

Don't your internal demons create morally negative thoughts and feelings?

They aren't necessarily morally oriented, no, although we do often condemn people for things that are our own faults, insecurities, and shortcomings.

And isn't the ability to monitor and understand those thoughts and feelings partially what "moral conscience" is about?

You're oversimplifying here, I think. Moral conscience often manifests as purely accusatory or without regard for its own underlying mechanisms, whether they be related to our demons or not.

Ideally, yes, moral conscience can lead to recognizing what we accuse in others, what we are inclined to persecute, and therefore what we should fix or be aware of in ourselves. But in practice, this, in my experience, is not always the case; perhaps the exception moreso than the rule, although I would like to hope otherwise.

I guess it can be used (and is) to do this. But for some reason most established religions tend to go towards teasing out internal demons,

Actually they tend to cover them up moreso than actually address them, at least in practice.

so moral conscience isn't necessarily about what you've described.

Well what are you referring to when you say "moral conscience," then?

[leckysupport]

Uhhh...your demons? I'm not sure what you're asking. Moral conscience is built up around what we believe about the world; not all beliefs have to do with our demons, though some may.



They aren't necessarily morally oriented, no, although we do often condemn people for things that are our own faults, insecurities, and shortcomings.



You're oversimplifying here, I think. Moral conscience often manifests as purely accusatory or without regard for its own underlying mechanisms, whether they be related to our demons or not.

Ideally, yes, moral conscience can lead to recognizing what we accuse in others, what we are inclined to persecute, and therefore what we should fix or be aware of in ourselves. But in practice, this, in my experience, is not always the case; perhaps the exception moreso than the rule, although I would like to hope otherwise.



Actually they tend to cover them up moreso than actually address them, at least in practice.



Well what are you referring to when you say "moral conscience," then?

I'm arguing out of my area of knowledge so I shall back away...

[Shazaam]

What is evil? I think evil is a disconnect. Evil is a lie...that you think is truth. Evil feels heavy, weighty and all quite serious. Like everything matters, but in a dark, slow suicide way. 'Evil' is live backwards, when you 'live life' even if it brings you lots of pain, you can't be evil- cause you are discovering the truth vs. your delusions, facts vs. your beliefs- and while yes the process is painful, in the long run you'll be better for it. So to be evil is to not be living. It's to stay stuck in harmful, repetitive psychological patterns that aren't good for you. It's like this ghost that wants you to sink down in the bottom of the ocean with it and just rot.

But evil also feels comforting at first, this nothingness feels intoxicating because life is all about pain. Like you want to escape and get off the ride. Even though you know what other people are preaching is true, you have to see things out for yourself. That is why, evil has to be something that is always fought inward, because you can't really get anywhere- metaphysically speaking, to a 'higher place' by being hypocritical or judging people of their actions, criticizing them for things that you still do yourself.

There's nothing wrong with a little bit of evil, because there's ironically a lot of peace in evil. Goodness is chaos, bright and harsh. It feels better when you do something you don't want to do and gain the world's respect, instead of retreating in the shadows... but it's just too demanding to expect people to do this all the time. And you can't sit there and 'hate evil' or mock it, evil needs to be loved like everything else.

[xerx]

LII evil is about being detached from the concrete ramifications of your actions, usually basing them around some abstract ideology. Being so high up your ivory tower and only seeing how it's effecting others through a muggy telescope. Examples are Robespierre and the main antagonist in this film.

ILE evil is about wanting to experiment, create something new, and acquire as much knowledge as possible while ignoring social conventions about right and wrong, eschewing traditional morality, or not caring about how your actions are hurting others. A few of the Nazi scientists who experimented on still-living people during the holocaust may have had this motivation.

ESE evil can manifest in trying to live up to the requirements of your group of friends, which may themselves be evil. They can strongly reflect the values, likes and dislikes of a group of people they admire (because of base ) by fully aligning their values with that of the group. Meanwhile, they can act entirely in the present and disregard the power that past actions have in affecting the future ( polr), losing that connection entirely, and, because of weak Ne, don't natively have the ability to mobilize their full potential in reshaping their reality. Plenty of gangbangers are ESE (or SEI).


SEI evil is less agentive ime. They easily gravitate toward not really caring about anything that doesn't affect them personally. They can put their sense of comfort in the present over the need to work to mitigate negative consequences. The classic example is Louis XVI and possibly Marie Antoinette (though she might be more ESE), who shut themselves off completely while France was falling to pieces.

...

[Shazaam]

People say they don't like 'Se' because they confuse it with pushiness or harshness, or bullying (not true, but let's say for the sake of discussion you are right)

But what they fail to realize is that, usually people who love you and care about you are the ones that are pushing you. Maybe they are misguided. Perhaps they aren't right about you, don't understand something internally about you- but if they really didn't care, they'd just leave you alone. If anybody is paying attention to you, for whatever reason- it means that the person cares about you in some way, even if it's not the way that you want exactly.

And it's like, we're fucked up because we romanticize all these people that 'leave us alone.' They're probably leaving you alone because they don't care about you at all. You're dead to them, in the truest sense of the word. We think that something good is just around the corner with these people who leave us alone, they must have something really good for us because they're not being annoying to us like everybody else is. But is that necessarily true? Probably not. So fucking what, nobody can be your ideal romantic thing you want them to be- you have to accept people as they are, and they will always let you down and dissapoint you , but at least it's better than pretending that you have something with somebody that you don't really have.

lol *cough*

[Gilly]

I think the Marie Antoinette stuff you describe is more Delta; SEI evil would be more E9ish, getting swept up in things and not stepping outside the momentum of what they are doing to realize that they are headed down the wrong path. Good example would be Jake in Avatar before he wakes the fuck up.

[DirectorAbbie]

Alpha: Carelessly self-involved evil
Beta: Recklessly self-consumed evil
Gamma: Greedily self-interested evil
Delta: Apathetically self-preserving evil

That's pretty good.


Personally, I was interested to notice that everyone who voted Alphas as the most evil voted everyone as the most evil. So Alphas are the least evil... Gammas are the opposite of alphas, so would that make Gammas the most evil even though Beta got fifteen votes?

[Creepy-male]

I've studied the nature of the quadras intimately over the years, both in theory and practice. I've read over one hundred and fifteen Russian socionics related articles. Some refer to me as an expert-- I think of myself as a man. A man with very particular interests in the personalities and mannerisms of other people. I've dedicated over 10 years of my life watching people, and I've honed it down to a science. No, an art. And, the one thing I've learned from these experiences is that the Intuitive Ethical Introvert is perhaps the evilest of all types. Thus making the beta quadra, the quadra in which the most malevolence resides. From my observations this is only seconded by the gamma quadra in which resides the infamous ENFj with their pernicious and fallacious nature. A classic and archetypal example being exuded by such members as Ashton or Nick.

[Creepy-male]

SEI evil would be more E9ish, getting swept up in things and not stepping outside the momentum of what they are doing to realize that they are headed down the wrong path. Good example would be Jake in Avatar before he wakes the fuck up.

Yeah, I've done this on a much smaller scale. I can also draw comparisons between what I was doing and Dubya's War on Terror (which is definitely disintegrating E9 attempting to deal with inner turmoil by attacking what's Out There).

The Claw from Gun X Sword is very possibly an Alpha villain, based on the above description. He basically is trying to fix the world, EVA style (instrumentality), but goes a little bit Peter Molyneux and murders a whole bunch of people for no reason, or something along the way, also becoming rather senile. Other than the crazy, he's actually a really nice, good guy with noble goals.

[DirectorAbbie]

From my observations this is only seconded by the gamma quadra in which resides the infamous ENFj with their pernicious and fallacious nature.

ENFjs are Beta, too.

What quadras are the world's most evil people in?

[Logos]

ENFjs are Beta, too.

What quadras are the world's most evil people in?

That would be difficult, if not next to impossible, to quantify. Sure you can go through a list of "famous evil people," but that list would be debatable, and it is a separate question from the one that you are asking.