View Poll Results: Charles Bukowski's type?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    0 0%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    0 0%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    0 0%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    0 0%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    0 0%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    5 100.00%
  • ILI (INTp)

    0 0%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    0 0%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    0 0%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    0 0%
  • EII (INFj)

    0 0%
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Thread: Charles Bukowski

  1. #1
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    Default Charles Bukowski

    .
    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 12:06 AM.

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    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
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    Se-ESFp works.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    you can go to where your heart is Galen's Avatar
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    His quotes all sounds super Se to me.

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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    I buy ESFp. He'd definitely be Se sub. I like him a lot. I should read more of his work.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Hello...? somavision's Avatar
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    Interesting, I know an ILI who has him pretty near the top of his "dudes I would suck" list. I know he's dead, but the list is more hypothetical than anything else. I'm not sure whether this points my friend away from being ILI and as such makes SEE a less likely typing for Bukowski.
    IEE-Ne

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    ESFj?

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    ISTp
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Why SEE and not SLE? Some of these quotes sound Fi-devaluing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    “There's nothing to mourn about death any more than there is to mourn about the growing of a flower. What is terrible is not death but the lives people live or don't live up until their death. They don't honor their own lives, they piss on their lives. They shit them away. Dumb fuckers. They concentrate too much on fucking, movies, money, family, fucking. Their minds are full of cotton. They swallow God without thinking, they swallow country without thinking. Soon they forget how to think, they let others think for them. Their brains are stuffed with cotton. They look ugly, they talk ugly, they walk ugly. Play them the great music of the centuries and they can't hear it. Most people's deaths are a sham. There's nothing left to die.”
    An SEE, in my experience, would not so readily dismiss the human aspect of death, and the grief that comes from the loss of the connection to someone you loved. (It's just the first sentence that I find hard to see coming from an SEE - I think they could easily see the need to mourn, while still expressing the same sentiments as the rest of the quote.)

    I know nothing of Bukowski, though. But you can pretty much feel the Se leaching from his pores in these quotes, lol. I've never read any of his work, but these pique my curiosity. Thanks for posting them.
    Some kind of Ixxp. Who knows.

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    I'm a Ti-Te! Skeptic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactus View Post
    Why SEE and not SLE? Some of these quotes sound Fi-devaluing:



    An SEE, in my experience, would not so readily dismiss the human aspect of death, and the grief that comes from the loss of the connection to someone you loved. (It's just the first sentence that I find hard to see coming from an SEE - I think they could easily see the need to mourn, while still expressing the same sentiments as the rest of the quote.)

    I know nothing of Bukowski, though. But you can pretty much feel the Se leaching from his pores in these quotes, lol. I've never read any of his work, but these pique my curiosity. Thanks for posting them.
    I think even an SEE wouldn't mourn the death of an animal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactus View Post
    But you can pretty much feel the Se leaching from his pores in these quotes, lol.
    I honestly don't think those quotes are a good representation of what Se is really like. I do find his mode of expression rather more Fe valuing than Fi though, just not sure that he's really Se. There's an over-the-top level of stereotypical Se in his character, that doesn't really fit into what Se is really about, and I lean toward ESFj for him. He reminds me of a few ESFjs I know. But I'm still unsure. He's interesting. I'll talk in depth about what I think of him more later.

  11. #11
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I know an LSI-Se who pretty much lives by Bukowski.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    No, you're just a faux-INTp with an PoLR. Naturally, you'd react negatively to and falsely label it .
    Trust me, I'm not Se-PoLR, and in no way would I confuse Se for Fe. You're just sounding stupid.

    btw the link in your signature doesn't work for some reason.

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    .
    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 12:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    I honestly don't think those quotes are a good representation of what Se is really like. I do find his mode of expression rather more Fe valuing than Fi though, just not sure that he's really Se. There's an over-the-top level of stereotypical Se in his character, that doesn't really fit into what Se is really about, and I lean toward ESFj for him. He reminds me of a few ESFjs I know. But I'm still unsure. He's interesting. I'll talk in depth about what I think of him more later.
    Interesting. His quotes sound extremely Se to me. Whether they're Se-ego or Se-super-id, I don't know socionics well enough to say yet. But c'mon, that first quote about doing what it takes against all odds is directly about the unyielding application of volitional pressure to reach your goals. Although its expression sounds more Beta Fe to me. So I could also see EIE.

    ESFj doesn't make any sense to me. Any ESFj I know would be extremely turned off by the single-mindedness of his approach. The fifth quote from Ashton sounds pretty anti-Ne (people blindly grabbing at whatever -- this is how many ESFjs operate!).
    Some kind of Ixxp. Who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cactus View Post
    Interesting. His quotes sound extremely Se to me. Whether they're Se-ego or Se-super-id, I don't know socionics well enough to say yet. But c'mon, that first quote about doing what it takes against all odds is directly about the unyielding application of volitional pressure to reach your goals. Although its expression sounds more Beta Fe to me. So I could also see EIE.

    ESFj doesn't make any sense to me. Any ESFj I know would be extremely turned off by the single-mindedness of his approach. The fifth quote from Ashton sounds pretty anti-Ne (people blindly grabbing at whatever -- this is how many ESFjs operate!).
    I know. I agree with most of these associations and would usually look at Beta first, but there's something still about him that makes me think Se super id and Fe dominant. HA is often associated with the poetic and artistic form of values, finding out what is wrong in oneself and having the notion linger mostly subconsciously and bleed through your thoughts, and into your perception of others. He didn't come across like he was devaluing that in any way, but merely recognizing some of the problems associated with it and changing them. It honestly doesn't mean it's a devalued process in general, but just in the momentary recognition of it--like how you will hear all types speak of their HA. I wouldn't really associate general single-mindedness to type though (by how you were implying it that is). I'm coming back to this thread when I figure it out.
    Last edited by 717495; 08-02-2010 at 10:58 PM.

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    .
    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 12:05 AM.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Not EIE. Their sentiments are conveyed and expressed quite a bit differently from this. They speak from a more abstracted POV because they're not ego.
    Not always.

    He does look EJ to me, actually. I could more easily see an EIE saying such things about solitude than an SEE.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  18. #18
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Yeah, EIE-Ni is my vote for now. Probably 7/8 axis, I'd lean 7w8 from the quotes and general picture I have of his life and personality; likely sx/sp.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    .
    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 12:06 AM.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I've never found quotes to be a reliable method of typing. Manner of speaking, gesticulations, speech rhythms: yes. But quotes, no. Not all EIEs speak like mystical seers like Goethe and Robert Anton Wilson.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  21. #21
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Also I think personal philosophies rarely equate to quadra values so much as they do personal experience.

    Don't you think he VIs more rational? Think David Carradine, Fidel Castro, etc.
    Last edited by Gilly; 08-03-2010 at 10:21 AM.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    .
    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 12:06 AM.

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    .
    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 12:06 AM.

  24. #24
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I said rational; I think Carradine is probably ESE, with EIE as a second possibility. I'm just looking at facial VI cues.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I am reminded of Paulo Coelho, the author. Hope someone can process why and that it helps with the elucidation of Bukowski's type...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Here's Coelho:







    Reminds me infinitely of Mark Messier, who is a probable LSE-Te. I'd guess the same for Coelho.

    So they (Coelho and Bukowski) are both likely Aristocratic EJ, anyways.

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    I'm convinced Bukowski is Fe-EJ, probably Pi sub. Not sure which one though.

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    Eldanen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    Se-ESFp works.
    Agreed

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    Se-ESFP sx/so E7 (not super-sure about this last part, could be 8w7 or 6w7)
    Last edited by Amber; 10-29-2014 at 08:15 PM.

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    I thought Sx/Sp.

    I read Factotum and most of what he talks about is flings, thick thighs, shitty jobs, filling out job applications, getting wasted, buying food,sleeping, taking shits, sneaking out of work to make money off horse races, etc. and it all feels really isolated.
    Last edited by suedehead; 11-01-2014 at 07:36 AM.

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    SEE-Se sx/sp
    I saw him typed as both 6w5 and 8w9 on enneagram forums, don't have a strong opinion either way.

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    If I compare him to a Gamma SF sx/sp artist like O Keeffe, in his writings I can find an obvious provocative intention. It does not look like he just lets his talent flow in a few forms that captivate him. His work does not really seem a bit monotonous to me. He wants to shift literary paradigms. He has a very disorganized lifestyle - sp last. He is interested in people on the fringes of society, he is not super self/absorbed in his literary intentions and I can see that as sx/so fascination with counter-culture, marginalized groups etc. There is a clear struggle to change the status quo in the cultural sphere.

    His personality is much more aggressive than I would expect a sx/sp to be. He vibes contra/flow all the way, check pics and interviews. This image is an important part of the persona he wants to project.




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    Last edited by suedehead; 11-15-2014 at 09:55 AM.

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    bumping

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    Charles Bukowski - ENFP - Huxley ???




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    SEE-Se: Charles Bukowski



    "...that's all that interests me, the next poem, the next fucking line. What's past is past, I don't want to linger over it, read it, play with it, jolly it up. It's gone, it's done. If you can't write the next line, well, you're dead. The past doesn't matter."
    Needing to constantly move to the next thing and working in spontaneous bursts suggests EP temperament.

    "What hurts is the steadily diminishing humanity of those fighting to hold jobs they don't want, but fear the alternative worse. People simply empty out, their bodies were fearful and obedient minds. The color leaves the eye, the voice becomes ugly, and the body, the hair, the fingernail, the shoes, everything does. As a young man, I could not believe that people could give their lives over to those conditions. As an old man, I still can't believe it. What do they do it for? Sex, TV, an automobile on monthly payments, or children? Children who are just going to do the same things that they did."
    These issues are directed towards the problems with logically systemizing your life and the futility of Si, oriented towards the ethics of what's worth doing and putting yourself into in a way that is stimulative and fulfilling rather than tenuous and draining. As he states in other accounts, anything that's truly worth 'trying' for doesn't require effort. If you are going to try for something, then it must be in harmony with your values and you must put your entire self into it.

    "Generally speaking, you're free till you're about four years old. Then, you go to grammar school and you start becoming demanded, solved, orientated and shoved into areas. You lose what individualism you have if you have enough, of course, you retain some of it but most don't have enough so you become watchers of game shows, things like that. Then, you work the eight-hour job with almost a feeling of goodness, like you're doing something. You get married like marriage is a victory, you have children like children are a victory. It's something they have to do because there's nothing else to do. There's no glory in it, there's no steam, there's no fire. It's very flat and the earth is full of them. You're doing some dumb thing over and over again, you get caught into the structure of what you're supposed to be and you have no other choice. You're molded and melded into what you're supposed to be. I didn't like this and I didn't like the eight-hour job. I decided I'd rather starve and live on the edges of nowhere than do anything at all or become anything labeled. For 50 years, I was a scarecrow, unlabelled, and now I'm supposed to be a writer."
    Hated his routine job and would rather starve than continue in monotony. Towards the end, he talks about not wanting to be labeled or put into a structure and moving instead to live on the edge. He walked away from a reliable course of action into an unpredictable situation that he viewed as necessary for his preferred mode of being. This is probably one of the most obvious examples of Extraverted Perception (Pe) > Extraverted Judgment (Je), where Je looks to determine the conditions of their environment to properly navigate through it, Pe needs to live unconditioned and open to arising opportunities; consequently, he ends up wandering aimlessly without internal objectives or a system for operating (PoLR Ti).

    "We don't need new governments, new revolutions, we don't need new men, new women, we don't need new ways, wife-swaps, waterbeds, good Columbian coke, water pipes, dildoes, rubbers with corkscrew stems, watches that give you the date. People are not good to each other one on one. Marx be damned the sin is not the totality of certain systems. Christianity be damned the sin is not the killing of a God. People are just not good to each other. We are afraid, we think that hatred means strength, we think that New York City is the greatest city in America. What we need is less brilliance, what we need is less instruction, what we need are less poets, what we need are less Bukowskies, what we need are less Billy Grahams. What we need is more beer, a typist, more finches, more green-eyed whores who don't eat your heart like a vitamin pill. We don't think about the terror of one person aching in one place alone untouched, unspoken to, watering a plant, being without a telephone that will never ring because there isn't one."
    The excerpt above is from his poem, The Crunch, very Fi/Se heavy imo. In a lot of his writing, you'll find a more sharply distinguished good and evil (who's being honest and who's telling lies, etc.) with hints of the sensory pessimism/realism characteristic of Gamma SF's. As he stated in interviews, the art that he created is a reflection of his lived experience. He wrote in a direct way about harsh realities incorporating violence and sexual imagery with a darker sensibility and humor that doesn't appeal to everyone.
    Last edited by toska; 11-16-2021 at 09:02 AM.
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