ILE-IEE Kindred/Comparative relations (ENTp & ENFp)

[Sirena]

yeah. why did you use brackets for E(N)Fp?

I think she is trying to emphasize Ne subtype vs. Fi subtype.

[Creepy-]

I think she is trying to emphasize Ne subtype vs. Fi subtype.

Yes.

Look at that, Sirena - is that duality at play, or what? lol

[Sirena]

Yes.

Look at that, Sirena - is that duality at play, or what? lol

<3 <3

[Wynch]

Well, I've debated whether or not to comment here, but I think it's worthwhile. I've been saying this for a while now. Though I enjoy ENFp randomness and I can enjoy their sometimes philosophical bent, I very often find that ENFp's drive me flipping insane. Particularly when they try and use Ti. It's probably the same when I try and use Fi to them I'm recalling that argument with JuJu again. So long as conversation with ENFp's stays in a relaxed Ne atmosphere then I'm ok. I can even have fun. But when I sink deeply into Ti and I want to have a serious discussion on a theory of mine I get really really annoyed by ENFp's because I feel like they never hear what I'm saying and whatever they contribute to the discussion is totally useless. This isn't to be mistaken with me seeing ENFp's as stupid. I know quite a few brilliant ENFp's. I just find it frustrating and annoying to slow down the Ti ball for ENFp's. It might even annoy me more because they are similar in perspective and not application. It's as though they see what you see, but their opinion is completely different. That, to me, is more frustrating than talking to someone who is entirely different from you.

[diljs]

Yes. An E(N)Fp is so similar to ENTp that they get along well, all other things being favorable to good relations. In the E(N)Fp/ENTp best friends that I'm thinking of, their differences seem miniscule, and their personalities compliment each other well. Also, neither one takes offense at what other people might see as callousness; they register the "offense" (lack of sensitivity, usually on the ENTp's part, for example), but it doesn't phase them.

Hmmm brother must be Ne subtype then, we get along extremely well.

[jewels]

just about all of the guys who ask me out end up being ENTps...why?? Then we end up getting into a "discussion" which ends up seeming like a fight to me (because I don't like to debate, but I also feel the need to prove my point for some strange reason...). This has happened so many times...why??

Do they think ENFps are their identical maybe? Or ENTps must more gutsy? It always ends terribly...

[Topaz]

the answer is simple. You come off to them like an ISFP. Stop doing that.

[jewels]

you could be right...gotta stop that somehow!! Maybe it's because my mom is ISFp? this suuucks....

[consentingadult]

I often get along great with ILE's, until it becomes clear to me that some of their behaviors that I'm initially attracted to, are causing issues of an unethical nature for both of us. When I point that out, I'm often accused of something to the effect of emotional manipulation, which in turn enrages me.

[redbaron]

you could be right...gotta stop that somehow!! Maybe it's because my mom is ISFp? this suuucks....

You know, I think I used to come across as INFj. And I wonder if that's because my mom is INFj. You never know. I have some mannerisms that are like her.

[FloridaGator]

Hi, I'm new!

Your observation about ENFP and ENTPs arguing is interesting. I am ENFP and my identical twin is ENTP. We are best friends but we fight ALL THE TIME. I'm not an expert on types by any means, but I think the types are attracted to one another because we both like to philosophize and have deep, passionate discussions. But when we argue, or our discussions turn heated, I think ENFP's are more likely to "lose", because we are sensitive, and we need people to like us more. ENTPs on the other hand, do not care at all what people think of them (this is probably the BIGGEST difference between my sister and I).

[Khola aka Bee]

I don't have anything to add, I'm just swooning over the comments on ILEs here

[UDP]

just about all of the guys who ask me out end up being ENTps...why?? Then we end up getting into a "discussion" which ends up seeming like a fight to me (because I don't like to debate, but I also feel the need to prove my point for some strange reason...). This has happened so many times...why??

Do they think ENFps are their identical maybe? Or ENTps must more gutsy? It always ends terribly...

You may be slapping each others POLRs

Describe the "discussion" more?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

You may be slapping each others POLRs

Describe the "discussion" more?

Wow. An ENFp and an ENTp have a disagreement and you describe is as "may be slapping each other POLRs" Why don't you charge us for these gems of insight?

[jewels]

You may be slapping each others POLRs

Describe the "discussion" more?

OK, so the major problem was the ENTp would state an opinion, but phrase it like an argument.

Examples:

1)

"People who choose to be religious are idiots"

I argued that one for a couple of hours w/ the guy. I'm not religious myself, but there are lots of reasons that is false, and I see the benefits of religion, even though I'm not.

It turned out, it was just his opinion, and he had no actual facts to back it up with. just vague phrases about how they must not be "scientific" if they were religious. We then got into a convoluted thing about whether science or religion was more "true" and how could you tell because both were based on believing some assupmtions that couldn't be proven (that was my point). he ended up just crossing his arms and still not agreeing, but I backed him into a corner where he couldn't actually disagree w/ what I said. I left exhaauuusted and annoyed. He seemed to enjoy it.

2) Another ENTp told me he went out of his way to be nice to female staff at work, since women are lower status and need all the help they can get. He said women in general are not respected as much as men, because men are more powerful.

I pretty much lost it there and argued for a good hour. He ended up eventually agreeing with me that women are equal to men, but he said that in our "society" they are not treated equally and need "special" help (which I didn't completely buy into). I felt that was condescending and he was putting himself on a pedestal to help the poor little women. ick.

3) Another ENTp argued with me that he could absolutely not be put into a box as far as personality types. Then when I started listing his traits, he eventually backed down, sorta blushed and admitted it was all true. He then argued something about how he had the right to try to "get with me" as it was just his human instinct and it was my fault since I'd worn mascara.

4) Another ENTp told me he thought women were out to trick men into getting them pregnant, so the men would have to pay for the rest of their lives. He said it wasn't the men's fault because they have "urges" women don't have and couldn't be blamed for "listening to their bodies."

I argued that men have equal choice in the matter and if they make a stupid mistake, they pay for it. Just like women do when women make stupid mistakes. He didn't seem to agree. He again argued the same thing another ENTp had, about how women were basically "lower" than men and how nice he was for trying to help them at work.

I don't remember what else they said, but that seems to be the general theme. I should have just dropped it, but felt a strange need to get them to listen to my point and admit they were wrong.

[Errant]

ENTps tend to do that. It's not that they're attracted to you or anything, it's just their way of interacting with other people. They present their opinion as fact; if you stand up to them and argue your point against them, they have more fun. If you back down and agree or whatever, their opinion remains fact and they move on, bored with your lack of challenge. The problem is that you feel drawn to stand up to them, but don't get anything out of the experience.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Hi, I'm new!

Your observation about ENFP and ENTPs arguing is interesting. I am ENFP and my identical twin is ENTP. We are best friends but we fight ALL THE TIME. I'm not an expert on types by any means, but I think the types are attracted to one another because we both like to philosophize and have deep, passionate discussions. But when we argue, or our discussions turn heated, I think ENFP's are more likely to "lose", because we are sensitive, and we need people to like us more. ENTPs on the other hand, do not care at all what people think of them (this is probably the BIGGEST difference between my sister and I).

I don't know if bolded part is strictly true-but I think I know where you are coming from. imho, the ENTp is less likely to take the debate personally. I can relate to this, because when I debate with someone, i'm more likely to see it as an intellectual discussion and seperate me liking the person with the discussion of the topic.

[mikemex]

It is easy to explain why ILEs seek IEEs: they like to be liked and IEE like people very much. IEE also provide

About discussions, I'm very quiet and always let my ILE friend carry on with the conversation. From time to time I catch him inventing things and I stubbly start to send signals that I'm annoyed, but I rarely confront him directly. He picks up the signals and usually feels ashamed; he has even developed a 'tic' of rubbing his nose.

I believe it's a matter of maturity; about developing esteem for oneself. I'm aware that I'm not perfect and I don't consider random mistakes to be an indication that I'm not intelligent or knowledgeable. So criticism doesn't strike me as bad because I do not have an idealized perception of myself.

That is something socionics doesn't describe: how developed are you according to the potential of your own type.

[betterthandead]

I think that when ISTPs extrovert themselves it comes out as ENTP and when ENTP is a lot less verbal they come out as ISTP. This related to the Semi-Dual fatalism where both individuals can see the motives behind their behaviors but there is little validation for that behavior which frustrates the semi-dual partners. Personally I think an ENFP-ENTP relationship would be one of an adventurous and intellectual manner.

[implied]

OK, so the major problem was the ENTp would state an opinion, but phrase it like an argument.

Examples:

1)

"People who choose to be religious are idiots"

I argued that one for a couple of hours w/ the guy. I'm not religious myself, but there are lots of reasons that is false, and I see the benefits of religion, even though I'm not.

It turned out, it was just his opinion, and he had no actual facts to back it up with. just vague phrases about how they must not be "scientific" if they were religious. We then got into a convoluted thing about whether science or religion was more "true" and how could you tell because both were based on believing some assupmtions that couldn't be proven (that was my point). he ended up just crossing his arms and still not agreeing, but I backed him into a corner where he couldn't actually disagree w/ what I said. I left exhaauuusted and annoyed. He seemed to enjoy it.

2) Another ENTp told me he went out of his way to be nice to female staff at work, since women are lower status and need all the help they can get. He said women in general are not respected as much as men, because men are more powerful.

I pretty much lost it there and argued for a good hour. He ended up eventually agreeing with me that women are equal to men, but he said that in our "society" they are not treated equally and need "special" help (which I didn't completely buy into). I felt that was condescending and he was putting himself on a pedestal to help the poor little women. ick.

3) Another ENTp argued with me that he could absolutely not be put into a box as far as personality types. Then when I started listing his traits, he eventually backed down, sorta blushed and admitted it was all true. He then argued something about how he had the right to try to "get with me" as it was just his human instinct and it was my fault since I'd worn mascara.

4) Another ENTp told me he thought women were out to trick men into getting them pregnant, so the men would have to pay for the rest of their lives. He said it wasn't the men's fault because they have "urges" women don't have and couldn't be blamed for "listening to their bodies."

I argued that men have equal choice in the matter and if they make a stupid mistake, they pay for it. Just like women do when women make stupid mistakes. He didn't seem to agree. He again argued the same thing another ENTp had, about how women were basically "lower" than men and how nice he was for trying to help them at work.

I don't remember what else they said, but that seems to be the general theme. I should have just dropped it, but felt a strange need to get them to listen to my point and admit they were wrong.

whoa. these guys just sound fucked up.

[meatburger]

"People who choose to be religious are idiots"

I argued that one for a couple of hours w/ the guy. I'm not religious myself, but there are lots of reasons that is false, and I see the benefits of religion, even though I'm not.

I tend to share his line of thinking. I think they are "being" idiots but are not neccessarily actual idiots. I also see the bad parts of religeon. Like war

We then got into a convoluted thing about whether science or religion was more "true" and how could you tell because both were based on believing some assupmtions that couldn't be proven (that was my point).

Im certian i would agree with him here. Some ideas in science are a long way from being proved, but i suppose a good scientist would not have blind faith in his theory until more evidence cropped up. The earth could be flat or it could be round.... In general science is a lot more more verifiable than religeon.

3) Another ENTp argued with me that he could absolutely not be put into a box as far as personality types.

I have this same argument with an INFp girl and ESTj guy. I dont think i will ever get anywhere trying to convince them otherwise.

he had the right to try to "get with me" as it was just his human instinct and it was my fault since I'd worn mascara.

Yeah women shouldn't do that. It makes us male animals go wild

[1981slater]

Again!

[Absurd]

How is she feeling?

[InvisibleJim]

How is she feeling?

Now now, if people actively tried to keep up-to-date with the mood swings of delta NF's they wouldn't have time to breathe!

[1981slater]

How is she feeling?

I dunno

[Cyrano]

What's her number?

[1981slater]

Duality never comes when you need it!

[1981slater]

What's her number?

Thanks for your support!

[Cyrano]

Seriously, I am sorry to hear the news.

[1981slater]

Seriously, I am sorry to hear the news.

Don't worry. There is nothing a horny ESE cannot fix after all

[Absurd]

Now now, if people actively tried to keep up-to-date with the mood swings of delta NF's they wouldn't have time to breathe!

Hmm, I thought the same thing about SEEs.

I dunno

Well, girls are like phones - they love being held and talked to but if you press the wrong button you will be disconnected.

[mikemex]

IEE girls are quite an issue...

[Beautiful sky]

Um, twice is what?

[The Reality Denialist]

It is like being identicals and retarded dual to each other or something regrading demo/creative aspects (low Si which is valued and yaddayaddayoo hence being concerned about it while being good at demo/creative).