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Thread: Aristocratic and Democratic

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    re: gilly's distinction regarding formality, I would say that deltas are formal, whereas betas are formalized. basically, there's an implicit formality that goes with the warlord taking the orphan under his wing and pushing him up through the ranks, but it's more like an invisible film that lightly encompasses interactions, not something completely set in stone. whereas with deltas, even though they embody a certain casual homeyness and can possess a certain emotional indifference, are always in some capacity formal in the strict sense, making sure an implicit protocol is being followed, however amorphous its genesis and operation may be.
    I've seen the "beta warlord taking the orphan under his wing" godfather-scenario unfold several times. Several SLEs and LSIs have tried to apply it on me. Betas shouldn't try to apply it on deltas, because deltas don't care about social power relationships and will expose the 'scam'(gammas will expose it too to some degree). To a certain degree, social power relies on an illusion that only exists because people 'get away with it', not because what they say or do is especially nice or wise. Like the emperor's new clothes.

    Scenario with the orphan being a delta:

    Warlord godfather: "Let me help you, I see a lot of myself in you; I have a lot of powerful friends, this is your chance"

    Delta orphan: "Haha I don't care! you just want to use me as power move to show you can control the destinies of those less fortunate than you; I don't need you, you need me. You need me to give you power over myself, to allow you to make me your little loyal and obedient mentee, so that you can see adoration and respect for your ideals in my eyes since you can't give it to yourself. But you can't shape me as you want. You are mistaken over me, I'm better than you, because I don't need someone weaker than me to make me feel good about myself; I weave my own thread and live my own life with my free will!"

    Warlord godfather: "Everything I do is for your good! You will regret your insolence!" (You made me feel bad for half a minute and now I will treat you as an ennemy forever! I will never let it go!!)
    Both people probably believe what they say to be true and good in their intentions; notice how sensibilities are different. Deltas are very sensitive to people trying to wield 'mental power' over them. The powerful is not the one who has social power and a lot of friends(beta aristocracy) but the one who can re-make other people into someone they aren't, through a 'schooling' or other indoctrination systems(delta aristocracy).

    Gamma and Alpha 'democrats' seem way less sensitive to social or 'mental' power(gamma = 'logistic' power=the ones who can decide and do are the powerful; alpha = 'mediatic' power = the renowned ones who control communication are the powerful).
    Last edited by lkdhf qkb; 02-11-2021 at 12:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    I've seen the "beta warlord taking the orphan under his wing" godfather-scenario unfold several times. Several SLEs and LSIs have tried to apply it on me. Betas shouldn't try to apply it on deltas, because deltas don't care about social power relationships and will expose the 'scam'(gammas will expose it too to some degree). To a certain degree, social power relies on an illusion that only exists because people 'get away with it', not because what they say or do is especially nice or wise. Like the emperor's new clothes.
    I see what you're saying, but I don't think beta power structures/games are as disingenuous as you seem to think. There definitely is a degree of scheming, but the implicit agreement among betas is that things only go so far when it comes to establishing connections and creating hierarchies, as internal dynamics creates this weird sense of transience that delimits the extent of one's potential involvement.

    I do see why deltas see it this way, though. They tend to always restrain themselves to a greater or lesser degree, and it seems to have something to do with maintaining a kind of balanced control over their environment. Maybe you could elaborate on this? Involved fields are a mystery to me.

    Scenario with the orphan being a delta:

    Warlord godfather: "Let me help you, I see a lot of myself in you; I have a lot of powerful friends, this is your chance"

    Delta orphan: "Haha I don't care! you just want to use me as power move to show you can control the destinies of those less fortunate than you; I don't need you, you need me. You need me to give you power over myself, to allow you to make me your little loyal and obedient mentee, so that you can see adoration and respect for your ideals in my eyes since you can't give it to yourself. But you can't shape me as you want. You are mistaken over me, I'm better than you, because I don't need someone weaker than me to make me feel good about myself; I weave my own thread and live my own life with my free will!"

    Warlord godfather: "Everything I do is for your good! You will regret your insolence!" (You made me feel bad for half a minute and now I will treat you as an ennemy forever! I will never let it go!!)
    lol @ regretting insolence. Yeah, betas can be kind of preemptive in this way, but I've personally never felt like they would attack somebody for not respecting their valuations, even if delta. I guess it's the counterpoint to deltas temporizing with betas in a way that prevents them from feeling like they can act meaningfully.


    Both people probably believe what they say to be true and good in their intentions; notice how sensibilities are different. Deltas are very sensitive to people trying to wield 'mental power' over them. The powerful is not the one who has social power and a lot of friends(beta aristocracy) but the one who can re-make other people into someone they aren't, through a 'schooling' or other indoctrination systems(delta aristocracy).
    Agreed. An SLE friend of mine noted how deltas can succeed very naturally in "realizing their dreams" in institutions, for this reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I see what you're saying, but I don't think beta power structures/games are as disingenuous as you seem to think. There definitely is a degree of scheming, but the implicit agreement among betas is that things only go so far when it comes to establishing connections and creating hierarchies, as internal dynamics creates this weird sense of transience that delimits the extent of one's potential involvement.

    I do see why deltas see it this way, though. They tend to always restrain themselves to a greater or lesser degree, and it seems to have something to do with maintaining a kind of balanced control over their environment. Maybe you could elaborate on this? Involved fields are a mystery to me.
    I'm not sure what your question is, but let me ramble a bit, and maybe this will make things a bit clearer. I'm assuming you mean Si/Fi when talking about involved fields. I might 'value' Si and Fi, but I'm kinda shit at them, so it's maybe better to ask a SEI or ESI how they work.

    Si+Fi in deltas seems to be preoccupied with understanding what 'true' emotional involvement means, a bit similar to the search of 'true' knowledge of betas. Far from being an external manifestation that can be manipulated, from a Si/Fi point of view, 'commitment' is something that is born from within the individual. Passion, or other emotional outbursts, are only the manifestation of an inner state that is born from a cause rooted in completely disjointed sensory interactions and associations. These information elements address the understanding and analysis of these causes and their essence. The focus is on understanding the essence of the emotional relationship with a here and now quality to it (example: Why should I love my parents? Why do I love them? Because society tells me to?)

    Se+Fe seems to work completely on outside things, and all external objects are dressed in emotional properties. This person is 'nice', this horror movie is 'scary', this behaviour is 'weird and creepy', etc.... The emotional subject (for whom is it scary? why is it scary for you? what does 'fear' feel like? what does it remind to you?) is completely erased from the picture. Emotional social properties(for example charisma, 'sense of humour') are things that can be acquired through techniques and methods (like knowledge in Te quadras) and added or substracted to a person without really changing the person in themselves.

    There is a certain 'localized embodied quality' to delta emotional commitment(this commitment is the basis of loyality and thus a basic ingredient of social power). Somebody is not 'nice' because of how they behave, but because this some-body embodies niceness to the eyes of the beholder. This could mean that there are associations to other people, projections of needs, bodily reactions.... This 'niceness' is then overlaid over the whole picture of the person, changing their essence fundamentally. Si/Fi means an awareness of this process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    I'm not sure what your question is, but let me ramble a bit, and maybe this will make things a bit clearer. I'm assuming you mean Si/Fi when talking about involved fields. I might 'value' Si and Fi, but I'm kinda shit at them, so it's maybe better to ask a SEI or ESI how they work.

    Si+Fi in deltas seems to be preoccupied with understanding what 'true' emotional involvement means, a bit similar to the search of 'true' knowledge of betas. Far from being an external manifestation that can be manipulated, from a Si/Fi point of view, 'commitment' is something that is born from within the individual. Passion, or other emotional outbursts, are only the manifestation of an inner state that is born from a cause rooted in completely disjointed sensory interactions and associations. These information elements address the understanding and analysis of these causes and their essence. The focus is on understanding the essence of the emotional relationship with a here and now quality to it (example: Why should I love my parents? Why do I love them? Because society tells me to?)
    Yeah, you got what I was getting at. The juxtaposition between it being more present-oriented and the natural awareness of underlying energy is the most salient aspect IME. I've never really heard a delta say what they literally think about what something is; all falls within a recursion that somehow is never complete, despite being fixed at each point of its progression. I guess it's when a microprocess they'e been monitoring reaches a certain point that a generality can be formed about this state you mention.

    Se+Fe seems to work completely on outside things, and all external objects are dressed in emotional properties. This person is 'nice', this horror movie is 'scary', this behaviour is 'weird and creepy', etc.... The emotional subject (for whom is it scary? why is it scary for you? what does 'fear' feel like? what does it remind to you?) is completely erased from the picture. Emotional social properties(for example charisma, 'sense of humour') are things that can be acquired through techniques and methods (like knowledge in Te quadras) and added or substracted to a person without really changing the person in themselves.
    I more or less agree with this, although I wouldn't say it's always about an externalized characterization; instantiation is a good way to describe the mechanism of Se+Fe, insofar as it feeds on Ni+Ti's outlines of situations. Betas simply need certain qualities embodied in ways that vindicate the precepts they bring into situations. No two betas will ever be completely aligned; the process is simply about who has fleshed out their context more, insofar as something shared is being expressed.

    There is a certain 'localized embodied quality' to delta emotional commitment(this commitment is the basis of loyality and thus a basic ingredient of social power). Somebody is not 'nice' because of how they behave, but because this some-body embodies niceness to the eyes of the beholder. This could mean that there are associations to other people, projections of needs, bodily reactions.... This 'niceness' is then overlaid over the whole picture of the person, changing their essence fundamentally. Si/Fi means an awareness of this process.
    Interesting. It does seem like no matter how much a situation evolves, deltas never really seem to change. So I suppose this shifting of the essence you mention is simply a way to qualify their sense of universality, insofar as the latter is less a literal 'whole' than just something that on some level has already passed on, and thus can only be reached for in a certain way.
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    I will simplify the aristocratic/democratic thing because it's not too hard to figure out and I agree those official descriptions are confusing and weird.

    Alpha/Gamma: Group cohesion is valued much better. They look more for similarities between people. Like when ILI Daria told SEE Brittany, "Yeah we're all kind of human..." Not necessarily sentimental, though. Can also be an ILE Fi polr going "We're all rotten deep down inside." Or an LIE liking 'Every Me, Every You' by Placebo which is kind of a negative and nihilistic song. Even if differences are somewhat paid attention to- they will bring back everything around to democracy. (like a ESE, SEE or SEI often seeing both sides of an arguement.) ILE/LII will also often logically play both sides off each other in an attempt for democracy. Democracy means just that 'majority rules.' And any minority thinking gets fed into the majority. When ESEs stereotpyically go 'stop being so weird!' - this is all part of that.

    Beta/Delta: Differences are paid attention to more, hence the hierarchies and aristocratic thinking. How the person is more powerful or weaker in relation to another object is more pronounced and used either for educational purposes, to form groups & alliances - or "just" for art and entertainment. Used to sort out tasks in the quickest way possible. Tbh I like a group of Betas the best because ime they don't waste time giving out orders to somebody that aren't in alignment with that individual's skillset unlike Alphas & Gammas who are trying too hard to be 'fair' in a useless way as it's more clear to me how everybody has different strengths. Me going on a gay/str8 rant- is example of aristocratic thinking as it is paying attention to differences, & not a group cohesive thing. Delta & Beta - they value differences much better and respect the hierarchy and somebody being the Queen and the other person being the pawn. Don't fuck the entire thing up by turning everybody into a bishop.

    A group of Deltas praying together in a cabin - it's not democratic because they are praying to God, 'the ruler of best.' Alpha praying would just be something stupid like putting on dumb hats and pretending to summon Captain Planet. Gammas would "find common ground" in order to create some boring business nobody really needs. There still would be some hierarchy- but it's about what they put emphasis and focus on. Like Gamma group business meetings saying that 'we're all a team here' even though the LIE is walking home with the biggest paycheck. Delta or Beta would more obviously point out who is the leader and most powerful entity is, and play around more with power structures.

    Although democracy is different than spiritual non-dualistic thinking, which technically aristocratic quadra type can still have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Yeah, you got what I was getting at. The juxtaposition between it being more present-oriented and the natural awareness of underlying energy is the most salient aspect IME. I've never really heard a delta say what they literally think about what something is; all falls within a recursion that somehow is never complete, despite being fixed at each point of its progression. I guess it's when a microprocess they'e been monitoring reaches a certain point that a generality can be formed about this state you mention.
    They do it all the time, they just don't use Ni+Ti for it. It seems you want deltas to provide you with a personal, consistent representation of a 'thing' based on absolute assumptions. Ne + Te doesn't do that and the recursivity you perceive comes from those information elements.
    You're right about the underlined part; but it's emotional microprocesses we're talking about, and not a thought process. Feeling always the same in several situations, and building a behavioural structure on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I more or less agree with this, although I wouldn't say it's always about an externalized characterization; instantiation is a good way to describe the mechanism of Se+Fe, insofar as it feeds on Ni+Ti's outlines of situations. Betas simply need certain qualities embodied in ways that vindicate the precepts they bring into situations. No two betas will ever be completely aligned; the process is simply about who has fleshed out their context more, insofar as something shared is being expressed.
    To understand deltas, turn this on it's head. Instantiation is used for abstract thoughts and mental models, while the outline is a semi-cristalized emotional and physiological habitus, that is constantly refined.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Interesting. It does seem like no matter how much a situation evolves, deltas never really seem to change. So I suppose this shifting of the essence you mention is simply a way to qualify their sense of universality, insofar as the latter is less a literal 'whole' than just something that on some level has already passed on, and thus can only be reached for in a certain way.
    Deltas do change, but I get why you think like you do. I'm not sure how far the sense of universality reaches(universality seems so Ti) with deltas in general, that's why I used the term 'localized'. Essence was probably the wrong term to use and sent you down a Ni+Ti path. Let's call it 'identity' instead. This 'sense of identity' only shifts slowly, after the situation has been internalized.

    It's funny, you seem to understand what I mean, but not quite the way I intend. Your interpretations make me think of a blind guy trying to explain the color red. It's uncanny because Si+Fi is so immediate, evident & ineffable to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    They do it all the time, they just don't use Ni+Ti for it. It seems you want deltas to provide you with a personal, consistent representation of a 'thing' based on absolute assumptions. Ne + Te doesn't do that and the recursivity you perceive comes from those information elements.
    I know. I wasn't saying they're incapable of saying what something is, just intimating at the different context. Absolute assumptions aren't the issue; not all betas are looking for a Heideggarian maxim. It just comes down to how boundaries are approached. But it seems we're just talking past each other on this though, so I'll leave it at that.

    You're right about the underlined part; but it's emotional microprocesses we're talking about, and not a thought process. Feeling always the same in several situations, and building a behavioural structure on this.
    The microprocess bit wasn't supposed to literally denote a thought process as opposed to an emotional one; it was just a reference to the way that deltas are always building their own kind of individualized progressions, and what can potentially emerge from them.

    To understand deltas, turn this on it's head. Instantiation is used for abstract thoughts and mental models, while the outline is a semi-cristalized emotional and physiological habitus, that is constantly refined.
    I'm familiar with habitus. And inverting the terms with different qualifiers kind of relates back to what I was saying about the ambiguity/disparateness in the symbolic structures deltas create, in contrast to betas.

    Deltas do change, but I get why you think like you do. I'm not sure how far the sense of universality reaches(universality seems so Ti) with deltas in general, that's why I used the term 'localized'. Essence was probably the wrong term to use and sent you down a Ni+Ti path. Let's call it 'identity' instead. This 'sense of identity' only shifts slowly, after the situation has been internalized.
    By "not seeming to change," I was merely referring to the fact that, in contrast to the other quadras—particularly betas—deltas have an "outside time" quality, hence the bit about their higher state/process/whatever having already passed on. And I'll concede that universality wasn't the best term.

    It's funny, you seem to understand what I mean, but not quite the way I intend. Your interpretations make me think of a blind guy trying to explain the color red. It's uncanny because Si+Fi is so immediate, evident & ineffable to me.
    Likewise. I can respect the difference, but it is what it is.
    Last edited by strrrng; 02-13-2021 at 04:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    It just comes down to how boundaries are approached. But it seems we're just talking past each other on this though, so I'll leave it at that.
    Without wanting to blame you, I was confused that you asked about "understanding Si and Fi"; it should have tipped me off. You've been trying to use Ni+Ti to "understand" involved fields, but that endeavour is utterly foolish and doomed to fail. Abstract fields are an information element, and as such can only perceive what they are "built" to perceive i.e. Ni + Ti, not involved fields, Si+Fi. The more you try, the less accurate your perception of that what is beyond the grasp of those information elements will become for you. You're like a fish trying to fly.

    Again the issue about boundaries seems to be more a problem of NT functions than SF. It might be interesting to make parallels between that which you perceive and the functioning of alpha NTs.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Inverting the terms with different qualifiers kind of relates back to what I was saying about the ambiguity/disparateness in the symbolic structures deltas create, in contrast to betas.
    By "not seeming to change," I was merely referring to the fact that, in contrast to the other quadras—particularly betas—deltas have an "outside time" quality, hence the bit about their higher state/process/whatever having already passed on. And I'll concede that universality wasn't the best term.
    Again, you don't see what is, only that which is lacking. And that can only be the thing you look for and take for granted, i.e. Ni-/Ti+, right? Conceptual integration is not the only way to change or perceive time, I hope you'll learn in time to free yourself from your hard-earned conceptual knowledge without denying yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I can respect the difference, but it is what it is.
    I agree & appreciate the cordiality

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    We're just rehashing at this point, so I'll give you credit for being real and end by qualifying that I wasn't simply looking for some Ni+Ti template for involved fields, just a more direct glimpse into their ontology. I don't really think functions are mutually exclusive in that sense, but yeah.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    We're just rehashing at this point, so I'll give you credit for being real and end by qualifying that I wasn't simply looking for some Ni+Ti template for involved fields, just a more direct glimpse into their ontology. I don't really think functions are mutually exclusive in that sense, but yeah.
    It could be, what I'm saying is that the ontological answer you're looking for won't really give you the key to understand SiFi from a subjective point of view, when it's the whole point of these functions. The most direct glimpse you could have is to experience and be 'involved' in SiFi and that can't be taught. It's embedded and embodied, not abstract.

    I'm glad you're not taking it personnally though. It's refreshing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    It could be, what I'm saying is that the ontological answer you're looking for won't really give you the key to understand SiFi from a subjective point of view, when it's the whole point of these functions. The most direct glimpse you could have is to experience and be 'involved' in SiFi and that can't be taught. It's embedded and embodied, not abstract.

    I'm glad you're not taking it personnally though. It's refreshing.
    I know it's not. The ontology bit was partially a reference to how your behavior in this thread reflected what it's about to me, not a literal presumption of some kind of solution. I know where we agree and disagree, I just think you were aggrandizing some.

    And yes, it's nothing personal, so I appreciate it.
    Last edited by strrrng; 02-14-2021 at 05:00 PM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Alpha/Gamma: Group cohesion is valued much better. They look more for similarities between people. Like when ILI Daria told SEE Brittany, "Yeah we're all kind of human..." Not necessarily sentimental, though.
    What's funny is Daria knows what her dual is like since Quinn is also SEE, but H subtype. I think Daria is ILI-N, but Brittany is actually D subtype so they're both rational subtypes. Daria may find Brittany annoying because Brittany engages with Fe a bit too much for Daria's liking but Daria actually knows how clever and conniving Brittany is and her stupidity is merely a show to disarm people and get them to like her.

    Alphas and Gammas tend to look for similarities which is why they gather over shared interests/common goals because that reinforces the similarities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    A group of Deltas praying together in a cabin - it's not democratic because they are praying to God, 'the ruler of best.' Alpha praying would just be something stupid like putting on dumb hats and pretending to summon Captain Planet. Gammas would "find common ground" in order to create some boring business nobody really needs. There still would be some hierarchy- but it's about what they put emphasis and focus on. Like Gamma group business meetings saying that 'we're all a team here' even though the LIE is walking home with the biggest paycheck. Delta or Beta would more obviously point out who is the leader and most powerful entity is, and play around more with power structures.

    .
    This made me lol for real. Good stuff.

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    From my viewpoint this dich has no relationship with potitical ideologies. In my circle, there are both aristocratic types and democratic types with similar poticial views.

    However, such viewpoints and ideologies are abstract.

    Aristocratic types have exactly one abstract IE (T or N) and one involved IE (F or S) in one block. Thus they tend to mix the involved communication with the abstract background more.

    On the other hand, the blocks of democratic types consist of either two abstract IEs or two involved IEs. Thus when they are involved in a communications they connect it less with the abstract background.

    I think this is the main difference.

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    The aristocratic/democratic dichotomy isn't great, doesn't apply much, but I disagree with some things Gilly said in the O.P. The casual vs gravity would be far more related with emotivism vs constructivism combined with Fe ego vs Fi ego and merry vs serious. Gilly seemed to have misinterpreted that rather than reading them as they are. Alcharon or whatever his name was was right... Betas are informal (probably the most informal) and Deltas are more formal (sometimes LSEs and SLIs and IEEs can be informal, but usually only if they're in a great mood; they repress negative informality other than LSEs being violent) and that correlated with the Reinin's description of the merry/serious dichotomy. Augusta Aushra said that in the dual nature of man and it's what I've observed.

    ILE-Ti can be very distressed by certain behavior and as such will not appear casual (certain behavior makes them appear high strung), yet they're democrats. I think I'm an LSI-Ti, and I'm rather informal and go on and on about personal things as some IEE I have known do.. some EIE and ILE have considered my behavior inappropriate.
    I'm sorry, but I'm psychologically disturbed.


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