Discussion of Benefit Relations

[Ave]

In my relation with ESFps theyre usually the ones who ask for me help, and I help out with enthousiasm. But usually thats people who dont know me.

[sar]

Hey guys, so I'm an INFp and I wanted to see if anyone had any experience with "relations of benefit". IEIs, for you it's ISFjs...I can't speak for anyone else other than myself but I honestly felt like in my relation, the ISFj I was with was totally insane...she was a super control freak and I could easily see her weakness and what she needed to do (to f*cking chill out!) BUT this perplexed me because she is SUPPOSED to be my benefactor...as in she is SUPPOSED to hold a position above me...but it honestly felt like I was the one who knew what was up and she was just crazy...also, our communication wasn't very great at all...anybody have similar experiences?

[anndelise]

Hey guys, so I'm an INFp and I wanted to see if anyone had any experience with "relations of benefit". My "benefactor" was an ISFj...I can't speak for anyone else other than myself but I honestly felt like in my relation, the ISFj I was with was totally insane...she was a super control freak and I could easily see her weakness and what she needed to do (to f*cking chill out!) BUT this perplexed me because she is SUPPOSED to be my benefactor...as in she is SUPPOSED to hold a position above me...but it honestly felt like I was the one who knew what was up and she was just crazy...also, our communication wasn't very great at all...she also continues texting me and such but I keep trying to ignore her...confused here...

This is similar to the relationship I've had with a couple of FeSi's.
In one of them, I was constantly helping her with legal paperwork of some kind. Whether it was to help her get her unemployment checks after losing her job(s), helping her keep her home (after the owner failed to do a background check FIRST, and then tried to kick her out for a bad decision she'd made 30 years ago), and helping her keep/getback her kids (after she kept trying to 'work things out' with their father).

Each time her mind was so focused on what she felt was the right thing for others to do...they need to do this, they need to do that...
Uh, no, that's not how the system works. YOU (her) need to stay focused on this this and the other. If you do, the decision makers will listen to you. If you continue with the focus you've got, they'll dismiss you immediately.

Working with her was like pulling teeth out of your own mouth. It was frickin painful.

And each time, after I helped her get things resolved, I'd not hear from her until getting close to the next emergency. Any contact other than when she's about to fuck up her life was initiated by me.

I finally just gave up staying in touch with her.
Whaddya know...less stress for me.

[Azeroffs]

I think this is specific to the ESI being crazy, as you put it. However, if I have my Socionics right here, benefit relations are in part characterized by the beneficiary (who you would be) seeing the weaknesses of the benefactor and involuntarily trying to help them. However, the benefactor usually rejects the help from the beneficiary. This tendency to be preoccupied with the benfactor's weaknesses causes for a lot of annoyance in these relations from both parties...the beneficiary resentful that his help is shot down and the benefactor resentful that the beneficiary is intrusive.

ftr, this is exactly how my relationship with an IEE played out, and also ftr, I consider her insane, but again, it could be an isolated case.

[discojoe]

The benefactor ignores the beneficiary's counsel because it is delivered with the benefactor's ignoring function - which is the opposite of their Dual-Seeking function - and because from the benefactor's point of view, the beneficiary is focusing too much on the benefactor's Hidden Agenda, of which too much can be annoying.

That said, I think there is a certain chemistry in these relations, and in certain circumstances they can work out positively.

[Beautiful sky]

In your other thread where you asked for a VI and which is now locked, that young man is SLI/ISTp type.

Relation of Benefits are short, hot and steamy. It usually ends with one person, the Beneficiary, running away and not being able to stand the Benefactor.

In my advice, it is one of the worse relations for close psychological distance, ie, someone to live with as a mate...

more here:

http://www.socionics.com/rel/bn.htm

[sar]

thanks. yeah that sounds about right...(about benefit relations anyways)...i don't think he's ISTp... hanks for atleast trying though...

[redbaron]

My best girlfriend growing up was ESI and a guy I was in love with for awhile as a teen, was also ESI. I'm not really friends with either of them anymore (which is kind of sad) but both of those relationships were quite formative (probably b/c of when they occurred). I was attracted to the fact that both of them seemed exclusive and I felt special to be in their inner circle of people. It was probably bad for me because I hung out with them instead of increasing my group of friends and being friendlier to others. I felt safe with them and it reinforced my focus on Ni. I wish I had realized what was going on back then...

[Nowisthetime]

BUT this perplexed me because she is SUPPOSED to be my benefactor...as in she is SUPPOSED to hold a position above me...but it honestly felt like I was the one who knew what was up and she was just crazy...also, our communication wasn't very great at all...anybody have similar experiences?

It takes time for socionics relations to develop. Also, If you felt you were above her it might be because she acted crazy, just as you said. But that is not socionics related, and not benefit related. Also remember that in your case your benefactor just happens to be ISFj, and with that comes certain behaviour. But the essence of the relation of benefit is the same over all pairs in the socion. So you have to see beyond some ISFj-related things and also beyond what's connected to her individual non-type related behaviour, to see what's really going on between you. Sorry if I cant express myself clearly.

The way to get a feeling for the pure socionics part of a relationship is to compare with other individuals of the same type, and how it felt to be with them. Then you can see further than things connected to a particular individual.

[DirectorAbbie]

I have an LSE uncle who's married to an SEE. They seem to get along well.

My benefactors are crazy, but they're also nice.
"I like you, so let's go skydiving!"
"I'm sure there's a flaw in your logic somwhere."

[stanprollyright]

I have a few close ESE friends. Lotta fun, but they can be high maintenance, controlling, and generally too moody for me to handle if I were to be in, say, a romantic relationship with one.

My mom is also an ESE. This sentence from the Wikisocion page is very accurate in terms of our relationship:

"[the benefactor] starts to criticize the beneficiary for not holding up his end of the relationship (and so issues a "request"). Meanwhile the beneficiary is irritated that the benefactor feels he has the right to interfere in and try to mold the beneficiary's behavior. If too close a distance is maintained both parties will ultimately feel unfulfilled."

As a whole, the Socionics.com description of the relationship is better, though.

[sar]

Nowisthetime, yeah i think you're right...we didn't know each other that well and only for a little bit of time...i really just think i felt above her because she was obviously insane and too focused on past relationships

and stanprollyright, i bet it's sort of weird having your mom be your benefactor...but, it actually seems sort of appropriate for a mom role, no?

[Beautiful sky]

My mom's my benefit relations too, and I want to run away, but I love her and yet I find that our interaction is not very satisfying to me because of the ; I do love her Te though and wished she used it more instead of suggesting it to me.

[redbaron]

The way to get a feeling for the pure socionics part of a relationship is to compare with other individuals of the same type, and how it felt to be with them. Then you can see further than things connected to a particular individual.

[chip]

I have had many relationships of this kind. They are pleasant and generallly rewarding. However I'm interested in what the descriptions exactly mean. Take for example: "The Beneficiary can be impressed and delighted by their partner's behaviour, manners, thoughts and their ability to easily deal with things that the Beneficiary conceives as complicated." - socionics.com.

INFP have extroverted emotion as their creative function which allows them to deal with people on an emotional level. Simply put: extroverted emotion is a conscious and deliberative act for them. However extroverted emotion remains subconscious for INTJ in a way that they can not readily identify and act upon extroverted emotion. Thus they benefit from receiving advice from INFP and basically being around them.

In personal matters I realise that INFP is well equipped to handle emotional difficulties much better than INTJ. They have a flexibility and an omnipresent emotional drive. Basically an INFP can alter the emotions and moods of others to their liking. More so they can easily make their emotions felt to others, something which INTJ have a hard time with. Basically INFP is much more at home in relationships and dealing with emotions.

The downside to this relationship is the INTJ does not have a voice: "The Beneficiary usually listens to every word the Benefactor says but there is no feedback, the Benefactor can not hear the Beneficiary." - socionics.com. I have experienced this many times. I can give perfectly good advice but the INFP does not retain the experience. They do not follow my advice even though I can follow theirs.

Basically INTJ conscious function introverted thinking does not have the same effect for the INFP as the INFP extroverted feeling has on the INTJ. It is a one way street.

I wish to discover more of this relationship. I'd like anyone to give their own examples of relations of benefit. To explain the relationship in terms of the ego block and functionality or provide real life examples.

[Blaze]

^good observations. i like this thread so far.

theoretically wouldnt the benefactor get something out of the beneficiarys leading function, since the benficiary leading is the benefactors hidden agenda?

having said that, EIE's Fe leading always seems over the top and heavy to me in a one on one situation. in a crowd, i admire it and like it though.

with LSE, their Si is pleasant. i don't necessarily need the Fe to go with it.

perhaps the dual seeking function is more receptive to any reasonable amount of the information element it craves, while the hidden agenda requires a specific dosage and that dosage must be connected with the dual seeking element, not some other element.

[Nowisthetime]

I have dated some EIIs. After being with the EII for some hours I absolutely have to take a break. I don't know what it is, but something is just too much (Fi?)

The EII I dated last year seemed to have an unrealistic picture of me. That she saw an ability in me that just wasn't true. Like she overestimated me.

With LSI I've noticed that I easily see myself as "better" than them.

[Ozz]

I have dated some EIIs. After being with the EII for some hours I absolutely have to take a break. I don't know what it is, but something is just too much (Fi?)

It's interesting as I found that being around SEI (my benefactor) for too long makes me tired.

[Beautiful sky]

I think everyone should read this article because it's fascinating and because it helps explain the evolutionary development of such a thing as a "request" and "request recipient" which is pretty much benefit relations;

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ss-by-A-Dovgan


My explanation of this is that my Benefactor, the requestor, usually asks me to do things; their Te is not with the intention of them doing the work themselves but rather requesting me to organize and do the work myself. I don't receive the requests well because all though I'm very mindful of what needs to be done, I need more of the person who organizes the to do and gives me the protocol to follow and has me working.

How does this work in real life?

For the longest time I've had bazzion books all stacked everywhere in my room when I was younger; my mom, an ILI, would come and say "honey, you need to organize your room." Well, I know that, but I don't know how because she doesn't mind having objects around so she wasn't the type to assist me in picking ones to get rid of but she did warn me that "if you don't get rid of these books, your allergies will get worse because the pollens from that tree keep collecting on it." Because I don't receive clear cut instructions from my benefactor, requestor, I don't do what she says or I avoid it; her advice actually stresses me out and makes me shift away from her. She realizes the work needs to be done and she tries to Activate me with her Te to do it but I can't because I don't receive information in this manner. Over time, when I don't do what my mom wants me to she does criticize me, she'll call me up and say "you never this; or you never that." That stresses me out and makes me do less but I love her so I take time out of the week to just be at her beck and call.

My dual cousin: "Stack your books in such a way that make them into a side table. You can make some of them in a way that lean against the wall like this and I better see this work done when I come back by next week." This is what I want. Don't play words to-do-request tango with me, be blunt, strait forward about what you want me to do and don't let me slack off. Yes, I like a little controlling.

[Airman]

So, what is actually a requester relation? The recipient feels somewhat inferior or tends to see the requested as somewhat better on a first meeting chat?
Wikipedia says the following:

"Relations of request are asymmetrical relations; one type requests another. The request recipient's dual seeking function is the requester's creative function, and as a result the request recipient often takes an interest in the requester. However, the requester's dual seeking function is the request recipient's place of least resistance, and the requester finds the request recipient a highly uninteresting person. Relations of request frequently end with the departure of the requester."

So, disaster?

[Beautiful sky]

Benefit/beneficiary. One is in a higher position and tries to tell the other what to do and the other doesn't quite lisen or follow through because the advice or help is insufficient. Take SEE and LSE...bei ng smooth the SEE will chase the LSE and the poor old EII has no chance of a dual relations next to someone flirty opportunistic manipulative and active. Well, when you are never fully satisfied would you be happy?.

[ashlesha]

DOOOOOOOOOOM

[Eliza Thomason]

So, what is actually a Requester relation? The Recipient feels somewhat inferior or tends to see the requested as somewhat better on a first meeting chat?
Wikipedia says the following:

"Relations of request are asymmetrical relations; one type requests another. The Request Recipient's dual seeking function is the Requester's creative function, and as a result the Request Recipient often takes an interest in the Requester. However, the Requester's dual seeking function is the Request Recipient's place of least resistance, and the Requester finds the Request Recipient a highly uninteresting person. Relations of Request frequently end with the departure of the Requester."

So, disaster?

Yes. So for you, SLI, romantic relations with an INTJ, though they may start well, they don't have a good chance of ending well. But they would not be as unhappy for you as with an ESFj (your supervisor!).

This played out according to that prediction in my failed Benefit/Request marriage. I am ENFp so my ESFj ex was Benefactor (or the other term, Requester). I was the Beneficiary, or Recipient. In the unevenness of these relations, that means I got the short end of the stick.

My ex was a charming well-functioning Narcissist. He was a taker, and me a codependent giver. So there were other problems in that marriage which lasted too long particularly because of my determination to stay married. But looking at it in terms of Socionics relationships, it did not have a strong chance. The Request/Benefit dynamics played out rather textbook.

I honestly did not think he was "better" than me when I met him; I felt I was a prize worth having, and I thought he was a prize, too. It did seem that his particular gifts were a"perfect" fit with mine. I admired his self-confidence and his fearlessly outgoing social personality. I thought he was"better" than me in that way, maybe. According to what you said, my dual seeking function - Si, was his Creative function. Yes, I was drawn to his down-to-earthness, and his hugs. So that's interesting. (Except, in true Narcissist fashion, he withdrew that as soon as we married).

He truly was a "Requester" - he enthusiastically pursued me. I was impressed with his persistence! I did not know of course that that is what Requesters/Benefactors do. Oh, and I was so impressed with his complements of me! Silly me. I chose not to consider how this could be related to the fact that his senior class named him "Most Flirtatious"...

But as you quoted above, "... However, the requester's dual seeking function is the request recipient's place of least resistance, and the requester finds the request recipient a highly uninteresting person. Relations of request frequently end with the departure of the requester."

Yes. I admired his gifts but as time went on it was evident that he did not admire mine. I wondered why other people found me so interesting but he did not. (Advice: Never wonder that. We all have an about equal amount of people who find who we are to be fascinating or boring). It was very invalidating. And since I had invalidation issues from my mother growing up, this wasn't helpful.

And yes, my relationship ended with the Requestor/Benefactor leaving! Very inopportune timing, too...

Benefit/beneficiary. One is in a higher position and tries to tell the other what to do and the other doesn't quite listen or follow through because the advice or help is insufficient. Take SEE and LSE...being smooth the SEE will chase the LSE and the poor old EII has no chance of a dual relations next to someone flirty opportunistic manipulative and active. Well, when you are never fully satisfied would you be happy?.

Interesting. In my particular Request/Benefit relation, it worked the same. ESE was smooth, and chased this IEE, and this IEE had no chance up against his flirty persistent pursuance...

[bolong]

Benefit/beneficiary. One is in a higher position and tries to tell the other what to do and the other doesn't quite lisen or follow through because the advice or help is insufficient. Take SEE and LSE...bei ng smooth the SEE will chase the LSE and the poor old EII has no chance of a dual relations next to someone flirty opportunistic manipulative and active. Well, when you are never fully satisfied would you be happy?.

LOLL this is how I feel about SLE and ESE. This a common pairing in teenage/college years bc of the ESE's initiative.

[Eliza Thomason]

LOLL this is how I feel about SLE and ESE. This a common pairing in teenage/college years bc of the ESE's initiative.

Except according to the Request/Benefit relationship dynamic, in the SLE/ESE pairing, the SLE would pursue the ESE.

[Airman]

Benefit/beneficiary. One is in a higher position and tries to tell the other what to do and the other doesn't quite lisen or follow through because the advice or help is insufficient. Take SEE and LSE...bei ng smooth the SEE will chase the LSE and the poor old EII has no chance of a dual relations next to someone flirty opportunistic manipulative and active. Well, when you are never fully satisfied would you be happy?.

Maritsa are u saying LSEs are all flirty , oppostunistic, manipulative and active? And which drugs are you taking?

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa are u saying LSEs are all flirty , oppostunistic, manipulative and active? And which drugs are you taking?

Not LSE. SEE...generally they both are sensory types and as that they not only tend to pursue sensual experiences, they are drawn to each other. SEE watches LSE work and gladly do things without expecting much in return and LSE thinks that the SEEs sharing of experiences fun. SEE perceives territory so she can impress, occupy his space and are effectively. The energy comes from the SEE ability to chase him around and give attention in ways that EII doesn't as she focuses on her hobbies, reading up all she can on her projects, and working tirelessly

[bolong]

Except according to the Request/Benefit relationship dynamic, in the SLE/ESE pairing, the SLE would pursue the ESE.

Nah, the SLE is just like, why not, ESE is cute and popular. Maritsa is right about this, the requester pursues. With LSE/SEE, SEE is pursuing.

[Xenith]

Yes I have a requestor friend and I am making effort to depart... but this person is a negative part of my life for reasons other than socionics.

Benefit/beneficiary. One is in a higher position and tries to tell the other what to do and the other doesn't quite lisen or follow through because the advice or help is insufficient. Take SEE and LSE...bei ng smooth the SEE will chase the LSE and the poor old EII has no chance of a dual relations next to someone flirty opportunistic manipulative and active. Well, when you are never fully satisfied would you be happy?.

This is interesting. So, benefit relations can block dualising?

[Beautiful sky]

Yes I have a requestor friend and I am making effort to depart... but this person is a negative part of my life for reasons other than socionics.



This is interesting. So, benefit relations can block dualising?

Yes. Unless duals have grown up together and know each other. In the case of my cousin and I. She was 8 when I wadls born and we've been in each others company for 35 years so she knows that her raging throwing fire in my face when she can't mobilize me doesn't upset me or make me run off to greener pastures conversely she can cheer me up in my down times and I can get her out of her nervous tensions. An SEE may just act restrained reserved and polite as to give the expression of steadfastness but in the end it's a msnipulative sceam because it even wears on them as they don't get what they expect to from their requests.

[Eliza Thomason]

Nah, the SLE is just like, why not, ESE is cute and popular. Maritsa is right about this, the requester pursues. With LSE/SEE, SEE is pursuing.

Oh, maybe we aren't understanding one another. I though you were saying that ESE is the pursuer in ESE/SLE, when its SLE. (See this chart). Yes, and I can see SLE liking the ESE's friendly social way and cuteness, and SLE has no problem pursuing...

Yes I have a requestor friend and I am making effort to depart... but this person is a negative part of my life for reasons other than socionics.

And that woudl be ISFp/SEI - so humble and dear are the ones I know! But every type can be the annoying or invalidating end of an uneven relationship...

[Eliza Thomason]

Yes. Unless duals have grown up together and know each other. In the case of my cousin and I. She was 8 when I wadls born and we've been in each others company for 35 years so she knows that her raging throwing fire in my face when she can't mobilize me doesn't upset me or make me run off to greener pastures conversely she can cheer me up in my down times and I can get her out of her nervous tensions. An SEE may just act restrained reserved and polite as to give the expression of steadfastness but in the end it's a msnipulative sceam because it even wears on them as they don't get what they expect to from their requests.

And that's the key point, the Requester is resenting not getting what he experts from the requests...

[Beautiful sky]

And that's the key point, the Requester is resenting not getting what he experts from the requests...

When I tried to talk to this one LSE that an SEE had her eye on she wouldn't let him off her sight. She would butt in my convos with him trying to show that her opinions were more important or that trying to make herself look so special by over valuing what I say as to make herself look extra caring and special. However, LSE are not that smart. Once they are in focus to get in on an opportunity...in her case she was willing to give up sex easily, he went for her and forgot about me. Someone else on the forum does this thing. I'll send you a pm explaining.

[bolong]

Oh, maybe we aren't understanding one another. I though you were saying that ESE is the pursuer in ESE/SLE, when its SLE. (See this chart). Yes, and I can see SLE liking the ESE's friendly social way and cuteness, and SLE has no problem pursuing...

lol not sure what the chart proves

[Eliza Thomason]

lol not sure what the chart proves

Its not for proving anything. The arrows just show who is giving the request and who is receiving it. Its just a useful chart for showing relationships.

[Eliza Thomason]

When I tried to talk to this one LSE that an SEE had her eye on she wouldn't let him off her sight. She would butt in my convos with him trying to show that her opinions were more important or that trying to make herself look so special by over valuing what I say as to make herself look extra caring and special. However, LSE are not that smart. Once they are in focus to get in on an opportunity...in her case she was willing to give up sex easily, he went for her and forgot about me. Someone else on the forum does this thing. I'll send you a pm explaining.

Oh, wow, that would be a bad scenario all around for you. SEE is your supervisor and she is more assertive in romance while you are more a receiver, and then yes, SEEs have this thing where they "guard" "their" people, in a group setting they will always know where "theirs" is and keep an eye on him/her. And that would just, yeah, be a bad scenario for you. Your only hope is that your mystery will keep him guessing. And she may have been willing to go all-in for sex early, but I know LSEs aren't willing to go all-in for committed relationships that quick. if it was not meant to be you just might have to wait for all that to pass. When it crashes, there you are...

My EII friend got her LSE guy by playing it cool and waiting. They sort of went on "group dates" - a singles get-together for people who like art shows and such. They were always drawn to each other and enjoyed each others' company and finally they started dating. So the assertive ones did not win him over.

[bolong]

Its not for proving anything. The arrows just show who is giving the request and who is receiving it. Its just a useful chart for showing relationships.

Thanks, I wasn't in any doubts regarding who the requester is in these pairings. You misunderstood me the first time but it seems you are eager to correct people regardless of whether you know what they are talking about.

[Eliza Thomason]

Thanks, I wasn't in any doubts regarding who the requester is in these pairings. You misunderstood me the first time but it seems you are eager to correct people regardless of whether you know what they are talking about.

Yes, I guess I must have misunderstood what you meant by "ESE initiative". I only asked for clarification because I wanted to understand. I didn't mean to make you feel like I was picking at you.

[Xenith]

And that woudl be ISFp/SEI - so humble and dear are the ones I know! But every type can be the annoying or invalidating end of an uneven relationship...

Hm I must have got the term mixed up. I meant INTp.

[suedehead]

My ESE aunt seemed more like a supervisor. I could've mistyped her though.