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    wants to be a writer. silverchris9's Avatar
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    Default Fi and Ethics

    So, I've been thinking a lot lately about Fi, and how it's so often associated with morality, despite the fact that at the most basic level, it's just about the bonds between people.

    What I realized is that Fi does have to do with morality, in a certain sense. This is because, since Fi focuses on the bonds between people, it also focuses on what will help and what will harm those bonds on a far deeper level than any of the other functions. This is the connection to morality. Specifically, I think a connection can be drawn between Fi and deontological ethics. Deontological ethics focuses on what should and should not be done to another person, i.e., bonds of obligation. This is precisely what Fi focuses on. Fi is not so much about making moral judgments about other people, and when paired with Ne, it actively avoids assuming that a person will always behave in a certain way because "that's the kind of person they are." Rather, Fi is concerned with the bonds of obligations of certain types of relationships. Fi is the voice that cries, "you can't do that to another human being," focusing on the obligation one member of the human race has to another. To do harm to another human being is to harm the implicit bond that exists between human beings. It is the voice that says "a husband should behave in a certain way towards a wife," and this assumption has its ultimate roots in an apprehension of what will help the bond and what will hurt the bond.

    This clears up a quandry I was in about determining whether a given judgment is Fi or Ti related. Both Fi and Ti are inclined to make generalized prescriptions about what should or should not be done in general. Both Fi and Ti make "rules". But Ti rules are rooted in avoiding logical contradictions between givens: given that a king is greater than a subject, and given that a subject correcting a king implies the reverse, subjects should not correct kings. That's an extreme example, but you get the point. Fi rules, as I have said, are rooted in information about what will help or harm a bond between a group or pair of individuals: since making jokes about weight will hurt the feelings of an overweight friend, one should not make jokes about weight, especially around that overweight friend.

    Hurting someone's feelings is something that Fi types try to avoid, for two reasons: first, because the attention to the bonds between people gives Fi types great capacity for empathy, and secondly because feelings in the sense of subjective sentiments from one person about another are a type of bond, or emotional relationship, between two individuals, something of which Fi types are extremely aware.

    Also, note that an Fi type can use their understanding of relationships to hurt as well as to help. An Fi-ego can deliberately take actions that they know will hurt or sever the bond between herself and another person. But they usually feel bad afterwords, especially deltas (ESIs can be a little more ruthless, as can SEEs).

    So, those are my thoughts. Opinions, questions, disagreements?
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    EffyCold thePirate's Avatar
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    Bonds of obligation is exactly how I would phrase it. This is how Fe manipulation differs from Fi manipulation, when Fi types want to get you to do something I feel they mainly use your relationship with them as leverage in getting you to do said action.

    The moral judgements come as a result of focusing on everything you have talked about. What one is obligated to do for another is based upon somewhat of a strict criteria, as Ti deals with a set of logical rules, Fi deals with a set of ethical rules which when broken or upheld lead to said judgements about the person. Fe and Fi types both have sets of morality that differ from each other in part due to this focus. Fe types can have some very strict obligatory criteria as well, however their focus is not on it. Fi in your ego gives much more to managing that aspect, hence more sensitivity towards those aspects, more easily upset at the 'rules' being broken, more rules in general. Fi has a smaller focus in general, one that goes from person to person whereas with Fe types it concerns the broader emotional atmosphere. Hence, to Fe types, Fi egos can seem unneccessarily anal about things. To Fi types, Fe types can be insensitive and less caring about individual persons.

    I find it funny that Fi obligations are not fully encompassing. Meaning, for Fe types an obligation is that we want to be free from obligations; this is one important criteria that is not upheld by Fi types and as such I have at times interpreted them as selfish for it. Disregard of Fe for THEIR OWN Fi criteria which takes precedent. Granted, we can also be dicks to them for disregarding Fi for our own Fe criteria. However, if we do this, to us its on a miniscule level where true, deep values dont come into play. Fi types may take such an act as a giant offense against them while Fi obligations burden us.

    Some more thoughts: When I read the ENFp - ISTp dualities, and read peoples comments, I got a picture of a dual relationship free from obligation, the two being together out of free will and love for each other. The more I got to see the differences the more I got to see this wasn't the case. It was in an outward, surface sense. However, there is definitely an underlying sense of restriction wherever Fi is concerned. Duty, a sense of having to do things that go against what you would prefer to do in some cases. This can degenerate into trying to force people to pay them back what they 'owe' so to speak. Dealing with Fi types in relationships can feel like being in perpetual debt. It kinda sucks. No offense.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Dude. This is seriously one of the best, most insightful analyses of Fi I've read to date. It echoes and expands upon my own thoughts on the subject.

    I'm more familiar with the Ti side of the equation -- Ti creates logical systems of morality, basing "what ought to be done" on carefully considered premises and deductions. Ti considers morality to be "objective" (in the common sense) and impartial, in other words not taking Fi relationships into account. Breaking "the rules" for the sake of someone you have a close relationship with is abhorrent to Ti morality, but almost a requirement of Fi morality, in which relationships trump impartial rules.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Agree.

    But I think the notion of Fi as 'attention to relationship bonds between ppl' could be extended to...'attention to individual's relationship to themselves - how people's thoughts will influence their actions, and how those actions will in turn impact on others as well as back on themselves, i.e. by affecting psychological state, future prospects, etc'. Fi'ers seem particularly sensitive to how 'well balanced' ppl are. Also, there appears to be a distinctively 'implicit' as opposed to 'explicit' nature to Fi understanding of these things.

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    Dude, ballin' description.

    I only have one minor disagreement though. I do think Fi types judge people based on their behavior, because an awareness of anything inside yourself, e.g. something like this:

    Fi is the voice that cries, "you can't do that to another human being," focusing on the obligation one member of the human race has to another. To do harm to another human being is to harm the implicit bond that exists between human beings. It is the voice that says "a husband should behave in a certain way towards a wife," and this assumption has its ultimate roots in an apprehension of what will help the bond and what will hurt the bond.
    implies IMO an awareness of it in others. So someone acting maliciously would be judged as a bad person, with bad values -- in the sense that a Ti type would reject a wrong logical system. An ESI with Ne PoLR would be unlikely to ever forgive a transgression, whereas an EII would judge but still try to sympathize and find the root of the person's bad behavior in order to guide him to better principles.


    There are also Fi types who don't have as much overall concern for humanity. Richard Nixon (ESI) comes to mind. At least some (or a big %) of the corrupt business elite in the USA is surely Fi valuing. To be able to apply humanitarian judgments to others, you have to have the same values yourself. And that involves a lot of personal knowledge and introspection, which isn't something everyone is capable of doing.

    ETA: Bonds of obligation is a nice way to put it. Fi types, especially Te egos don't usually feel obligated to most people. As such they don't mind harshly criticizing them if the situation calls for it (Angela from The Office), and wouldn't be seriously affected by insults from them. But they'd feel obligated to someone who has a close bond and/or expect the latter to have certain obligations to them, and would weigh insults from them very seriously.

    It's also entirely up to the individual Fi ego whether or not to extend those obligations to the total sphere of human interests, like Jeremy Irons does above. (ETA 2: I'm aware that Ne vs Se valuing polarizes things somewhat as well.)
    Last edited by xerx; 03-15-2010 at 11:10 AM.

  6. #6
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    I agree that Fi doesn't necessarily equal morals. When you consider that for instance being selfish is typically regarded as being immoral, i've known some ENFp's who are pretty selfish - with their time, and putting themself out for others. Although it's not something I particularly like, I have to admit i'm kinda selfish myself.

    I think morals in the more conventional sense (what's regarded as being moral) is more an Fe thing, as it is external so places more importance on externally accepted ways of behaving.

    I haven't had time to read all of your post just now, but what I have read makes sense I think.

    I also agree with ISFj, some of them can be pretty manipulative, maybe even nasty in how they manipulate people.

    When Fi is good though, when it cares in a positive sense, it's pretty awesome.

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    Dealing with Fi types in relationships can feel like being in perpetual debt.
    hello? totally. thank you.

    I also agree with ISFj, some of them can be pretty manipulative, maybe even nasty in how they manipulate people.
    absolutely....i see this all the time.

    Unsurprisingly, the reasoning behind Fi interpersonal ethics is also inconsistent (not an inherently bad thing, I hasten to add, it's a viable evolutionary strategy). Sometimes it will be based on feelings (treat people well who you like, and badly who you don't like), on lack of feelings (don't bother too much with the feelings of people you're not close to), reactions to a specific events ("he did X, now he does not even deserve civility" <-- a real example, paraphrased), among other things. What's interesting is that, due to Ti-role, Fi-leading types will often give logical-sounding justifications even though there is little real logic and the inconsistencies are in at least some cases easily exposed (Fi-creative types are usually not concerned with appearing logical in this regard, due to their Ti-PoLR and that Fi "merely" supports their leading function anyway).
    yes this is exactly how Ti types see Fi types. kind of like yeah they think they're being logical but there is actually very weak logic in how they look at things and what they say. Fi has to be subjective. Fi types often will not admit to this though.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    yes this is exactly how Ti types see Fi types. kind of like yeah they think they're being logical but there is actually very weak logic in how they look at things and what they say. Fi has to be subjective. Fi types often will not admit to this though.
    Something being logical doesn't necessarily mean that it is true... Just because something is logically sound, does not mean that it is actually accurate (this is how I feel about the forum). Too much focus on Ti will make you lose objectivity in order to satisfy a logical requirement.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Something being logical doesn't necessarily mean that it is true... Just because something is logically sound, does not mean that it is actually accurate (this is how I feel about the forum). Too much focus on Ti will make you lose objectivity in order to satisfy a logical requirement.
    Actually Fi types are the ones most likely to make these sort of mistakes, and either they will do something such as assuming two contradictory positions because they cannot let go of one or the other.

    The problem of logic is that everyone uses it regardless of whether or not they believe in it.

    Take your propositions here...

    Just because something is logically sound, does not mean that it is actually accurate (this is how I feel about the forum).

    Because x, then y and this sort of thinking is inescapable for anyone. But by devaluing and not understanding logic one will constantly use logic in ignorance and blindness and result in inconsistent and contradictory positions.

    The wierd thing about Fi types is that they are often use logic or at least the mechanics of formal logic without knowing it but to apply it to absurd notions of morality and traditions such as "Eating pork is dirty", "Homosexuality is a sin" and the like. Because these absurd preferences which they develop and apply formal logic to, they come up with multiple contradictory positions for whatever they happen to be attached to.

    Let's not forget that Fi, Fe, Ti, Te are all rational functions. Ti just happens to deal with the nature of logic and methods of logical analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    I think you have some good thoughts there, silverchris. On a side note, I tend to really like it when INFps verbally philosophize about socionics. They strive for good logic, but they also include a sense of understanding and general non-judgemental-ness. The OP reminds me of things that Starfall and Glamourama have written, which I also like a lot.


    With regard to using logic to support my convictions - it seems to me that often I *know* things, but for people to also know I feel I have to "build a bridge" of logic so they can follow me. To me it's like knowing that the earth rotates, causing the sun to rise and set each day. It doesn't need explanation for me to know it's true and for me to even go so far as to use that fact in my daily life. But sometimes it's as if there are people who simply won't believe me when I say the sun rises and sets each day, and so I have to explain to them how it works before they'll believe me. If they can't see that the sun does that, I can understand them needing an extra explanation, and I usually don't begrudge them it.

    But, still, I often feel that I'm not always the best "bridge builder" or that the need to do so is somewhat undesirable. The thing is, that "bridge" isn't what's real to me - it's just a means to an end. So if I have to redo part of it to make it stronger I'm ok with that, except that the people who do value bridges (or who rely on them to get where I'm going) get suspicious of me when I have to do that and sometimes decide not to follow me, thinking I'm wrong or stupid or lying or some such thing. Also, sometimes I tend to under- or over-estimate how much effort and materials need to go into that bridge. So sometimes my logic is weak or incomplete, and sometimes it's way more than what's needed and I end up looking over-analytical or too preoccupied with details.
    Yes, this applies to me as well. That's what I mean by focusing too much on Ti that you can lose objectivity. It has happened to me that I'm trying to get at something, but instead of trying to understand what I'm getting at, the other person gets nit-picky at how I phrased something and then doesn't trust what I'm saying. There's this professor I have who is like this, and when you make a mistake in something you phrased, in that it can be interpreted differently, you spend a good 5 minutes rephrasing until it's "perfect," which undoubtedly affects the flow of conversation and building something to a climax.


    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Actually Fi types are the ones most likely to make these sort of mistakes, and either they will do something such as assuming two contradictory positions because they cannot let go of one or the other.

    The problem of logic is that everyone uses it regardless of whether or not they believe in it.

    Take your propositions here...

    Just because something is logically sound, does not mean that it is actually accurate (this is how I feel about the forum).

    Because x, then y and this sort of thinking is inescapable for anyone. But by devaluing and not understanding logic one will constantly use logic in ignorance and blindness and result in inconsistent and contradictory positions.

    The wierd thing about Fi types is that they are often use logic or at least the mechanics of formal logic without knowing it but to apply it to absurd notions of morality and traditions such as "Eating pork is dirty", "Homosexuality is a sin" and the like. Because these absurd preferences which they develop and apply formal logic to, they come up with multiple contradictory positions for whatever they happen to be attached to.

    Let's not forget that Fi, Fe, Ti, Te are all rational functions. Ti just happens to deal with the nature of logic and methods of logical analysis.
    Yes, I know what you are talking about, but I don't agree in saying that it's often the case with Fi types. It frustrates me when I read broad generalizations in the forum about types, because it doesn't take into account that people can overcome their difficulties in dealing with certain functions, and it doesn't do them justice... Yes, this is a belief I have.


    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    I destest any gift or favor from Fi types, from ESI's and EII's you will quickly know what you now "owe" them whilst irrational Fi types have a way of glossing it over and making you owe there "perpetual debt" in other ways.

    EXTp's that I know quickly pick this up and hate any such attempts by EXI or XEE.
    To me this is an Fi rant, so I find it ironic that the post is against Fi people.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Yes, I know what you are talking about, but I don't agree in saying that it's often the case with Fi types. It frustrates me when I read broad generalizations in the forum about types, because it doesn't take into account that people can overcome their difficulties in dealing with certain functions, and it doesn't do them justice... Yes, this is a belief I have.
    Yes, way to be logical about it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    To me this is an Fi rant, so I find it ironic that the post is against Fi people.
    Could also be not

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Something being logical doesn't necessarily mean that it is true... Just because something is logically sound, does not mean that it is actually accurate (this is how I feel about the forum). Too much focus on Ti will make you lose objectivity in order to satisfy a logical requirement.
    you can have relability without validity for sure. and yes overdose on Ti can make you lose the bigger picture of the "facts" of how people will be people.

    i'm saying that logic is not the purview of ethicals....kinda like ethics is not the purview of logicals.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I think you have some good thoughts there, silverchris. On a side note, I tend to really like it when INFps verbally philosophize about socionics. They strive for good logic, but they also include a sense of understanding and general non-judgemental-ness. The OP reminds me of things that Starfall and Glamourama have written, which I also like a lot.


    With regard to using logic to support my convictions - it seems to me that often I *know* things, but for people to also know I feel I have to "build a bridge" of logic so they can follow me. To me it's like knowing that the earth rotates, causing the sun to rise and set each day. It doesn't need explanation for me to know it's true and for me to even go so far as to use that fact in my daily life. But sometimes it's as if there are people who simply won't believe me when I say the sun rises and sets each day, and so I have to explain to them how it works before they'll believe me. If they can't see that the sun does that, I can understand them needing an extra explanation, and I usually don't begrudge them it.

    But, still, I often feel that I'm not always the best "bridge builder" or that the need to do so is somewhat undesirable. The thing is, that "bridge" isn't what's real to me - it's just a means to an end. So if I have to redo part of it to make it stronger I'm ok with that, except that the people who do value bridges (or who rely on them to get where I'm going) get suspicious of me when I have to do that and sometimes decide not to follow me, thinking I'm wrong or stupid or lying or some such thing. Also, sometimes I tend to under- or over-estimate how much effort and materials need to go into that bridge. So sometimes my logic is weak or incomplete, and sometimes it's way more than what's needed and I end up looking over-analytical or too preoccupied with details.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    silverchris' post is nicely met with hkkmrs post, i enjoyed both of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    But, still, I often feel that I'm not always the best "bridge builder" or that the need to do so is somewhat undesirable. The thing is, that "bridge" isn't what's real to me - it's just a means to an end. So if I have to redo part of it to make it stronger I'm ok with that, except that the people who do value bridges (or who rely on them to get where I'm going) get suspicious of me when I have to do that and sometimes decide not to follow me, thinking I'm wrong or stupid or lying or some such thing. Also, sometimes I tend to under- or over-estimate how much effort and materials need to go into that bridge. So sometimes my logic is weak or incomplete, and sometimes it's way more than what's needed and I end up looking over-analytical or too preoccupied with details.
    funny...logic is kind of like "work". and perfectly acceptable. role function logic. sometimes it scares me how much socionics really plays out.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Amazingly, I have to say.......100% agree with the 1st 2 posts.

    Pirate and Silverchris, what can I say.....praise where praise is due. You guys have surprised me.


    Now I know you probably are not inclined to believe this, but your descriptions of Fi are EXACTLY the way I operate. It's all about the bonds. Pretty much all my behaviour is dictated by.....what will improve/change/manipulate this bond in the way I want/need/believe it needs to change?

    Bearing in mind, this can work both ways. I know how to draw and ingratiate people to myself, and I know when and how to keep them at arm's length. However, all will be done in a way that carefully preserves the dignity of everyone involved. I absolutely will never make a joke about anyone unless I know they'll be able to take it, and if I think it will help with said bonding agenda.


    Hmm. Interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    So, I've been thinking a lot lately about Fi, and how it's so often associated with morality, despite the fact that at the most basic level, it's just about the bonds between people.

    What I realized is that Fi does have to do with morality, in a certain sense. This is because, since Fi focuses on the bonds between people, it also focuses on what will help and what will harm those bonds on a far deeper level than any of the other functions. This is the connection to morality. Specifically, I think a connection can be drawn between Fi and deontological ethics. Deontological ethics focuses on what should and should not be done to another person, i.e., bonds of obligation. This is precisely what Fi focuses on. Fi is not so much about making moral judgments about other people, and when paired with Ne, it actively avoids assuming that a person will always behave in a certain way because "that's the kind of person they are." Rather, Fi is concerned with the bonds of obligations of certain types of relationships. Fi is the voice that cries, "you can't do that to another human being," focusing on the obligation one member of the human race has to another. To do harm to another human being is to harm the implicit bond that exists between human beings. It is the voice that says "a husband should behave in a certain way towards a wife," and this assumption has its ultimate roots in an apprehension of what will help the bond and what will hurt the bond.


    This is really good.
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    I destest any gift or favor from Fi types, from ESI's and EII's you will quickly know what you now "owe" them whilst irrational Fi types have a way of glossing it over and making you owe there "perpetual debt" in other ways.

    EXTp's that I know quickly pick this up and hate any such attempts by EXI or XEE.
    This would sorta be be a EXtp's reaction to such things.
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    [QUOTE=jughead;623944]I destest any gift or favor from Fi types, from ESI's and EII's you will quickly know what you now "owe" them whilst irrational Fi types have a way of glossing it over and making you owe there "perpetual debt" in other ways.

    [QUOTE]

    What?
    I forgive and forget.

    I am a very happy and content person; I don't hold on to grudges and wallow in misery. I try to find humor.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Everyone forgets but the relation takes up the same quality again.

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    [quote=Maritsa33;623945][QUOTE=jughead;623944]I destest any gift or favor from Fi types, from ESI's and EII's you will quickly know what you now "owe" them whilst irrational Fi types have a way of glossing it over and making you owe there "perpetual debt" in other ways.


    What?
    I forgive and forget.

    I am a very happy and content person; I don't hold on to grudges and wallow in misery. I try to find humor.

    you have already shown an apalling lack of awareness of your own internal proccessess and acted in a way that correlates with what people are saying here.

    basically, your word means shit.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    [quote=thePirate;623982][quote=Maritsa33;623945]
    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    I destest any gift or favor from Fi types, from ESI's and EII's you will quickly know what you now "owe" them whilst irrational Fi types have a way of glossing it over and making you owe there "perpetual debt" in other ways.




    you have already shown an apalling lack of awareness of your own internal proccessess and acted in a way that correlates with what people are saying here.

    basically, your word means shit.
    You are ISTp
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    yes this is exactly how Ti types see Fi types. kind of like yeah they think they're being logical but there is actually very weak logic in how they look at things and what they say. Fi has to be subjective. Fi types often will not admit to this though.
    You quoted exactly what peaked my interest! And I agree completely with what you've described here. It matches the experience I've had with my SEE friend that frequently creates conflict between us.

    Essentially he will make a statement or judgment call which I feel is poorly thought out. For instance "Natural selection dictates that people will get more and more attractive because attractive people have more children". Now his basis for this argument was a study which showed that men with typically "attractive" features demonstrated higher testosterone levels. I verified the details of this study (which I had demanded to see because he has a tendency to talk out of his ass, which pissed him off). I made the argument that fertility is equally the role of the female as the male and that the capability of women to bear children didn't have links to their physical appeal based on his evidence. Also, he did not demonstrate an actual link to fertility in men, simply testosterone levels. He immediately turned my disagreement at this point to be purely a fun killer and that I was just trying to be a bitch (despite the fact that this outlandish statement was a fun killer to begin with from my perspective). Essentially, there was no way to challenge him because a) he is always right and has decided that people don't say these things because they're too PC and b) arguing a contentious point makes you a fun-killer and/or ignorant.

    We constantly have clashes like these. It begins with him making a very firm conclusion based on a subjective observation. When I inevitably challenge him (whether because I know he's wrong or simply to test the foundations of his claim because I doubt the validity) it quickly deteriorates into a personal attack on me. He feels he has the right to make these judgments and then thinks he has the experience or evidence to back it up, and I tend to disagree on both the content and the method by which he has arrived at said conclusion. Also, I don't mean to paint him as completely unreasonable, it's just hard for me to evaluate this from his perspective because I experience it so differently than him.

    Disclaimer: I'm not trying to say that all Fi types arrive at conclusions that are wrong or outlandish. Simply that my experience is they don't take criticism to the method by which they've arrived there very well.
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    Talk more about Fi dominant, pinnochio. This thread resonates a lot in me, and that bit of what you added.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    Alpha NT interferes: for an Alpha NT such theory is valid until something doesn't make sense, and that doesn't mean statistical data or evidence, because things can be the opposite statistically because of other factors, while inherently the local process is valid.
    That was exactly the nature of my argument with him, if you bothered to read it:


    such theory is valid until something doesn't make sense

    "make a statement or judgment call which I feel is poorly thought out"

    that doesn't mean statistical data or evidence, because things can be the opposite statistically because of other factors, while inherently the local process is valid.

    "Also, he did not demonstrate an actual link to fertility in men, simply testosterone levels."

    Where first I established that the evidence was real and that "the local process is valid" = attractive men have high testosterone

    but "things can be the opposite statistically" = no link between fertility and testosterone
    ILE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vero View Post
    You quoted exactly what peaked my interest! And I agree completely with what you've described here. It matches the experience I've had with my SEE friend that frequently creates conflict between us.

    Essentially he will make a statement or judgment call which I feel is poorly thought out. For instance "Natural selection dictates that people will get more and more attractive because attractive people have more children". Now his basis for this argument was a study which showed that men with typically "attractive" features demonstrated higher testosterone levels. I verified the details of this study (which I had demanded to see because he has a tendency to talk out of his ass, which pissed him off). I made the argument that fertility is equally the role of the female as the male and that the capability of women to bear children didn't have links to their physical appeal based on his evidence. Also, he did not demonstrate an actual link to fertility in men, simply testosterone levels. He immediately turned my disagreement at this point to be purely a fun killer and that I was just trying to be a bitch (despite the fact that this outlandish statement was a fun killer to begin with from my perspective). Essentially, there was no way to challenge him because a) he is always right and has decided that people don't say these things because they're too PC and b) arguing a contentious point makes you a fun-killer and/or ignorant.

    We constantly have clashes like these. It begins with him making a very firm conclusion based on a subjective observation. When I inevitably challenge him (whether because I know he's wrong or simply to test the foundations of his claim because I doubt the validity) it quickly deteriorates into a personal attack on me. He feels he has the right to make these judgments and then thinks he has the experience or evidence to back it up, and I tend to disagree on both the content and the method by which he has arrived at said conclusion. Also, I don't mean to paint him as completely unreasonable, it's just hard for me to evaluate this from his perspective because I experience it so differently than him.

    Disclaimer: I'm not trying to say that all Fi types arrive at conclusions that are wrong or outlandish. Simply that my experience is they don't take criticism to the method by which they've arrived there very well.
    classic superego, right? this is exactly how it goes with my sueprego partners.

    lately i've been trying to let the Fi types dominate with people and relations. i try to give them their berth in that area. the problem is they won't let you secede the logical areas. they want to own that, too.

    i think it's because they don't trust Ti logic. they think it's going to overrule Fi ethics. dunno....the Fi-Ti tussle is a tough one. i would have to say that Fi intimidates me because i think the Fi's are going to psychologically manipulate people into doing what they want on the basis of how much they like them. and i think i'd be right about that.

    in other words politics. people make decisions for political reasons not for fact-based logical reasons. politics wins every time. it sucks.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vero
    Essentially he will make a statement or judgment call which I feel is poorly thought out. For instance "Natural selection dictates that people will get more and more attractive because attractive people have more children". Now his basis for this argument was a study which showed that men with typically "attractive" features demonstrated higher testosterone levels. I verified the details of this study (which I had demanded to see because he has a tendency to talk out of his ass, which pissed him off). I made the argument that fertility is equally the role of the female as the male and that the capability of women to bear children didn't have links to their physical appeal based on his evidence. Also, he did not demonstrate an actual link to fertility in men, simply testosterone levels. He immediately turned my disagreement at this point to be purely a fun killer and that I was just trying to be a bitch (despite the fact that this outlandish statement was a fun killer to begin with from my perspective). Essentially, there was no way to challenge him because a) he is always right and has decided that people don't say these things because they're too PC and b) arguing a contentious point makes you a fun-killer and/or ignorant.
    Typcially, women with broader hips are more fertile than women with narrower hips. At the least, women with broader hips are better designed for childbirth.

    It just so happens that guys tend to like curves in a women in such a place.

    Although, depending on their menstrual cycle, women find guys with higher testosterone (typically evidenced by strong jaw lines and such) more attractive, but at other times more feminine faces are more attractive (sort of guy who may make good father figure). Although, the most fertile period ties in with the higher testosterone attractiveness looks.

    However..even then it is a highly complex issue not even fully covered by myself here. From my own experience, I think the ESFp was just trying to be funny, and in a way she's right to get a bit annoyed, as none of us, not you or I or probably even specialists in the field can rationalise it completely at least at this stage.

    She's probably also a bit attracted to "rugged" looking men herself, on the basis of her Se looking for some "rough sex", lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huginn View Post
    That's not what I was talking about at all. Fi types are inconsistent because they treat different people differently, based not on their moods but on inconsistent criteria. Fi, while a static element, is still based on feelings. A Fi type may espouse an ideal of, for example, treating people with dignity, but (especially for Gammas) they are about as likely to decide that you don't deserve the consideration (this is outside the realm of discrimination, which is certainly not limited to any types). Whatever one might think of this in principle, it's not a bad thing in practice because it likely prevents them from getting burned too often.

    (I have a tentative theory that, when assessing the character of others, Alphas get more false positives and Gammas get more false negatives, with Beta and Gamma getting a more even spread of both.)

    This is to say nothing of how the same person is treated differently over time, in which case I do agree that there is more of an argument for calling Fe types the inconsistent ones.
    Yes. I think this is a very good description.
    ILE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huginn View Post
    Sometimes it will be based on feelings (treat people well who you like, and badly who you don't like), on lack of feelings (don't bother too much with the feelihttp://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/ngs of people you're not close to), reactions to a specific events ("he did X, now he does not even deserve civility" <-- a real example, paraphrased), among other things. What's interesting is that, due to Ti-role, Fi-leading types will often give logical-sounding justifications even though there is little real logic and the inconsistencies are in at least some cases easily exposed (Fi-creative types are usually not concerned with appearing logical in this regard, due to their Ti-PoLR and that Fi "merely" supports their leading function anyway).

    If someone rigidly adheres to a system of interpersonal ethics (especially in a more universally applicable way), they're more likely Ti-ego than Fi-ego.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huginn View Post
    Go learn socionics. Logical types use norms and rules of thumbs in ethical matters, Ethical types don't. What type do you think Immanuel Kant was??
    When say Kant or Spinoza or some logical types use norms and social convention, they do not consider such topics to be areas of ethical esteem but rather areas of practicality. I would like to make clear that in no way does adhering to non-offensive social norms constitute a ethical system, it is a practical principle with one basic law(be decent to others). There is no moral esteem from such a course of action, it is mere common decency.

    This is a very short example of how such practices are viewed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinoza's On the Improvement of the Understanding
    Thus it is apparent to everyone that I wish to direct all science to one end and aim, so that we may attain to the supreme human perfection which we have named; and, therefore, whatsoever in the sciences does not serve to promote our object will have to be rejected as useless. To sum up the matter in a word, all our actions and thoughts must be directed to this one end. Yet, as it is necessary that while we are endeavoring to attain our purpose, and bring the understanding into the right path, we should carry on our life, we are compelled first of all to lay down certain rules of life as provisionally good, to wit the following:---

    1. To speak in a manner intelligible to the multitude, and to comply with every general custom that does not hinder the attainment of our purpose. For we can gain from the multitude no small advantages, provided that we strive to accommodate ourselves to its understanding as far as possible: moreover, we shall in this way gain a friendly audience for the reception of the truth.
    2. To indulge ourselves with pleasures only in so far as they are necessary for preserving health.
    3. Lastly, to endeavor to obtain only sufficient money or other commodities to enable us to preserve our life and health, and to follow such general customs as are consistent with our purpose.

    Having laid down these preliminary rules, I will betake myself to the first and most important task, namely, the amendment of the understanding, and the rendering it capable of understanding things in the manner necessary for attaining our end.
    The formation of value systems is fairly well discussed in philosophy and there are many discussions on the mechanisms which formulate these systems.

    As a whole I find that Fi ego types tend to formulate moral systems on the basis of ressentiment. Ressentiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I'm going to talk about types that have Fi in the mental ring.

    Alpha NT tend to try to reduce sources of ressentiment, such as material inequality, class struggle, ethnic oppression. Backwards traditions and values are asked to be discarded and unity is promoted for the purpose of advancement in human freedom. The ideas of goodness in humility, strength in weakness, and various other form of pleasant absurdities for the despairing are sought to be excised. The weak must be made strong otherwise they will drag us all down. Alphas NT's typically have very little patience for mediocrity or stupdity but value talent and potential in many forms. People should be allowed to prove their strength from a fair place rather then inherit strength and weakness from legacy enviromental circumstances.

    Betas ST are simple... if you do not conform to their ideas of strength, you don't deserve anything. However Betas often are in a situation of weakness, but are trapped because they do not recognize that situation and thus are exploited. They are prone to squabbling with themselves and others in petty disputes which only sap their strength. They're too prone to try to prove their strength and mask weakness.

    Gamma SF for me are a bit hypocritical, they have a systems of value rooted in contradiction, they value strength yet when their failures occur, they retreat into vengeance and seek to demonize those that defeated them. Their defeat was not because of their weakness but rather because of the wickedness of others.

    Delta NF seek to preserve and in that sense they seek to protect the weak, but they view this as a virtue rather then a practicality. Humility, weakness and softness are turned to virtues. The core issue with Delta is stagnation. They are often highly active in social services and environmentalism or animal rights because they view such activity as ennobling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    When say Kant or Spinoza or some logical types use norms and social convention, they do not consider such topics to be areas of ethical esteem but rather areas of practicality. I would like to make clear that in no way does adhering to non-offensive social norms constitute a ethical system, it is a practical principle with one basic law(be decent to others). There is no moral esteem from such a course of action, it is mere common decency.

    This is a very short example of how such practices are viewed.

    The formation of value systems is fairly well discussed in philosophy and there are many discussions on the mechanisms which formulate these systems.
    While reading through the thread, I was planning on responding to Huginn's view regarding Ti and normative ethics, but you have spoken well on how Kant and Spinoza stand on the matter in relation to Ti. I really do not have much to add, but I would like to raise your points up to give them a greater emphatic weight.

    As a whole I find that Fi ego types tend to formulate moral systems on the basis of ressentiment. Ressentiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I'm going to talk about types that have Fi in the mental ring.

    Alpha NT tend to try to reduce sources of ressentiment, such as material inequality, class struggle, ethnic oppression. Backwards traditions and values are asked to be discarded and unity is promoted for the purpose of advancement in human freedom. The ideas of goodness in humility, strength in weakness, and various other form of pleasant absurdities for the despairing are sought to be excised. The weak must be made strong otherwise they will drag us all down. Alphas NT's typically have very little patience for mediocrity or stupdity but value talent and potential in many forms. People should be allowed to prove their strength from a fair place rather then inherit strength and weakness from legacy enviromental circumstances.
    This appears to be consistent with a number of other Ti philosophers, most notably John Rawls (LII).
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I'm going to talk about types that have Fi in the mental ring.

    Alpha NT tend to try to reduce sources of ressentiment, such as material inequality, class struggle, ethnic oppression. Backwards traditions and values are asked to be discarded and unity is promoted for the purpose of advancement in human freedom. The ideas of goodness in humility, strength in weakness, and various other form of pleasant absurdities for the despairing are sought to be excised. The weak must be made strong otherwise they will drag us all down. Alphas NT's typically have very little patience for mediocrity or stupdity but value talent and potential in many forms. People should be allowed to prove their strength from a fair place rather then inherit strength and weakness from legacy enviromental circumstances.

    Betas ST are simple... if you do not conform to their ideas of strength, you don't deserve anything. However Betas often are in a situation of weakness, but are trapped because they do not recognize that situation and thus are exploited. They are prone to squabbling with themselves and others in petty disputes which only sap their strength. They're too prone to try to prove their strength and mask weakness.

    Gamma SF for me are a bit hypocritical, they have a systems of value rooted in contradiction, they value strength yet when their failures occur, they retreat into vengeance and seek to demonize those that defeated them. Their defeat was not because of their weakness but rather because of the wickedness of others.

    Delta NF seek to preserve and in that sense they seek to protect the weak, but they view this as a virtue rather then a practicality. Humility, weakness and softness are turned to virtues. The core issue with Delta is stagnation. They are often highly active in social services and environmentalism or animal rights because they view such activity as ennobling.
    ...*sigh*. What does socionics teach? That one quadra's approach is no better than any others. That's socionics 101. Hell, that's the high school class you have to take to even get into socionics U (and it's not hard to get into, it's like maybe community college-level hard to get into). And yet this post clearly assumes that the "alpha NT" approach is inherently better than the other three approaches mentioned. But maybe you're just sharing an opinion, which you don't expect others to take as fact?

    Also, I continue to disagree completely with your perspective on formal logic and how it is to be used. But I don't really want to derail this thread with arguing about it.

    silverchris' post is nicely met with hkkmrs post, i enjoyed both of them.
    Gracias, but how so?


    I agree with most of what you wrote, just please let me correct you in that Fi is not inherently connected to relationships and morality. Morality is a field of Fi nature, as information, and Fi types are activating easily in it, but that's not all neither something fundamental. It's the same as Ti is for technical design, or almost.

    However, when it comes to Socionics, we focus more on relationships, so the emphasis is not out of place, just reminding you that Fi is much more than that and the association is tangential.
    Cool. The comparison makes sense, I suppose, but then what is Fi primarily about, at its core? Certainly I don't think it's fundamentally about ethics; I think the ethics come in as a result of a focus on bonds between people. The focus on the bonds between people, I would assume, is just the nature of the function. Or rather, can you give me some examples of some of the other things Fi is? I think I would understand you better then.
    Dude. This is seriously one of the best, most insightful analyses of Fi I've read to date. It echoes and expands upon my own thoughts on the subject.
    Thank you very much. It mostly echoes your thought because, if I remember correctly, you were one of the first or maybe the first to correct my misunderstanding of Fi a few months ago in another thread. But I'm quite glad I could add some further food for thought.

    @pirate, that debt thing makes sense to me. I'm hesitant to ascribe it completely to Fi, in a way, because I'd imagine that's how it feels to Fe types more than how it is from a neutral perspective, but it's clearly a good explanation of the Fi-Fe relationship. I'm going to be on the lookout for that with the confirmed Fi valuers I know. Strongly agreed on the ENFp-ISTp thing feeling like an external sense of freedom (although again, actual Fi types would probably disagree). It's "freedom" I suppose, but there are all these un-transgress-able rules and expectations and above all duties (another connection between Fi and deontology, although curiously modern deontology was apparently basically invented by Kant, the archetypal LII). And a relationship with all those duties seems highly not-free to me. But that is, I suppose, just an Fe sort of perspective on the matter.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    ...*sigh*. What does socionics teach? That one quadra's approach is no better than any others. That's socionics 101. Hell, that's the high school class you have to take to even get into socionics U (and it's not hard to get into, it's like maybe community college-level hard to get into). And yet this post clearly assumes that the "alpha NT" approach is inherently better than the other three approaches mentioned. But maybe you're just sharing an opinion, which you don't expect others to take as fact?

    Also, I continue to disagree completely with your perspective on formal logic and how it is to be used. But I don't really want to derail this thread with arguing about it.
    true....but there have been tons and tons of threads about the superiority of beta, gamma, delta as well. i for one am pleasantly surprised but what a great description of alpha hkkmr has written. it's not that the alpha description isn't accurate, it's that the rest of the quadras are not as elegantly described. but i am sure that the other quadras can jump in.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Yes, he's kind of the ring leader of the people who hangout at my boyfriend's house and I get a little intimidated to continue arguing with him on these occasions because his word is typically law in those social groups. You cross him and you face public shame, regardless of the soundness of your argument. Still, I'll start these debates and go down that road regularly because it just makes my skin crawl when people say things that are so wrong or so poorly rationalized.
    LOL yes! that's exactly how it is!

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze View Post
    true....but there have been tons and tons of threads about the superiority of beta, gamma, delta as well. i for one am pleasantly surprised but what a great description of alpha hkkmr has written. it's not that the alpha description isn't accurate, it's that the rest of the quadras are not as elegantly described. but i am sure that the other quadras can jump in.
    Yeah, I guess so... I suppose there's nothing *wrong* with extolling the virtues of your type... but I do think it's misleading. But point taken that there are plenty of threads about the superiority of beta methods (that's just 'cause we're the best though ), and he's just talking about what he likes. It just felt so... factual, when it manifestly isn't fact, it's one perspective. But I'm probably just annoyed with hkkmr in general.

    Betas ST are simple... if you do not conform to their ideas of strength, you don't deserve anything. However Betas often are in a situation of weakness, but are trapped because they do not recognize that situation and thus are exploited. They are prone to squabbling with themselves and others in petty disputes which only sap their strength. They're too prone to try to prove their strength and mask weakness.
    In my experience, Beta STs tend to have fairly accurate estimations of their place in a given hierarchy, their relative strength and weakness, but may not act as though they have this awareness. Certainly, they can be given to bravado, and would never admit to you that they're weaker than an opponent (or to themselves, really), but they generally know it on some level. Regardless, knowing one's relative strength is more of an Se + Ti thing than an Fi thing. I suppose Beta STs can seem harsh, and the criticism that you don't "deserve anything" if you don't live up to their "ideas of strength" is probably a good description of how they seem to non-betas (or Se-polrs especially), but Beta STs aren't heartless monsters; they do treat people with some basic kindness, even the weak (even if for no other reason than social constraint). Also, I know that I see the "petty disputes" as something akin to sparring for training's sake. It don't think it saps your strength so much as prepares you to be as strong as possible for collective action when the collective action is completely necessary.

    From a beta perspective, I suppose Beta STs' disregard of Fi seems like ignoring social customs and niceties and kindnesses that simply aren't important for the sake of attaining a goal, focusing one's attention on places where it is actually needed, etc.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    ...*sigh*. What does socionics teach? That one quadra's approach is no better than any others. That's socionics 101. Hell, that's the high school class you have to take to even get into socionics U (and it's not hard to get into, it's like maybe community college-level hard to get into). And yet this post clearly assumes that the "alpha NT" approach is inherently better than the other three approaches mentioned. But maybe you're just sharing an opinion, which you don't expect others to take as fact?

    Also, I continue to disagree completely with your perspective on formal logic and how it is to be used. But I don't really want to derail this thread with arguing about it.
    You don't even understand and instead moralize from a position of ressentiment.

    Better and worse, things are determined in the exposition and not necessary in the start. But true and false, this determination is more worthy of my attention.

    You actually imagine I have some value system to determine better and worse, sadly, I leave that for the moralists.

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    People should be allowed to prove their strength from a fair place rather then inherit strength and weakness from legacy enviromental circumstances.
    It's not the strong that survives, but what survives that is strong. I concern myself not with people's absurd notions of strength and weakness, but survival and having a good time while dispensing some truth should I stumble upon such a curiosity. I might not have a better position, but I'm going to try and enjoy it regardless.

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