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    Default ENTj or ESTj?

    This is my first post on this forum, and the reason I joined is because I'm curious to speak with some people who know probably more than I do about Socionics help me determine my type.

    I'm what I would call an expert in MBTI. I've studied it for years and find it a highly accurate model for describing people. Historically, I haven't been the largest fan of Socionics, mainly because there are several things about the system that don't seem to fit well. One is that I've never been able to place myself in one of the four quadras. Second is that I don't see the MBTI J/P distinction a problem. But I didn't come here to discuss that, at least not at first.

    For awhile now I've seen myself as ENTj. In MBTI, I'm an ENTJ. In enneagram, I'm 1w9 with 3w4 and 5w6 fixes. I really think I must either be ENTj or ESTj in Socionics, and I'm mainly aiming to determine how the tell the difference between the two, since I'm aware that S/N is not the same in MBTI and Socionics. How would you tease apart S/N in Socionics, and how would you tease apart ENTj/ESTj?

    Maybe after we get that nailed down, I'll be able to place myself within a quadra.

    I'm not sure what information to give you guys about myself to make this determination. I love theroetical principles, I majored in philosophy in college. I love to construct my own theoretical principles then apply them practically. I've very idealistic. I like to control my environment and get very upset if things are not a certain way or things don't go according to plan. I tend to be pretty pushy and the convincing others that I'm right about something or about having something a certain way.

    Maye you guys will have some specific questions to ask to help in this determination.

    Thanks in advance for your help.

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    The fact that you say that you can be pushy would usually point to an hidden agenda.
    EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1


    As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
    Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    If you are a 3 in ennegram you are ESTj in Socionics. Give us a VI one picture face forward and one from the side.

    S/N is very similar to MBTI, except MBTI couldn't make a valid test to decipher the two beyond a doubt; so a lot of people who take MBTI can score either one.

    Socionics says that S N have certain qualities beyond that of mental but also physical hence Visual Identification.

    Control over environment is absolute ESTj feature, to regulate the workings of the environment, to assume responsibility over its management. ENTj assumes control in a different way, in a more opportunistic then advantage for efficiency of the working order.

    ENTj are less likely to control environment and BOTH more likely to control financial resources. ESTj usually has a very neat way of living as opposed to rather the not so neat way ENTj does; and also, ESTj love cooking, ENTj's don't. Value wise, ENTj's are by far much more conservative in bed...while ESTj's are likely to do what their woman want's them to.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-12-2010 at 12:27 AM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    If you are a 3 in ennegram you are ESTj in Socionics.
    If I were you, I wouldn't listen to someone who speaks in absolutes
    EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1


    As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
    Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962

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    Welcome to the16types. You already seem like you have a good . Whether you're an LSE or a LIE, you're in the minority. Unfortunately, I know very few LIEs. I do know several LSEs though, myself included.

    Do you plan spontenaity?
    Describe your sense of humor.
    What is your ideal role in life?
    Discuss food.

    LSE
    1-6-2 so/sx
    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33
    choo chooooooooo
    I really wish we didn't live near the train tracks, they're so loud at night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
    I'm not sure what information to give you guys about myself to make this determination. I love theroetical principles, I majored in philosophy in college. I love to construct my own theoretical principles then apply them practically. I've very idealistic. I like to control my environment and get very upset if things are not a certain way or things don't go according to plan. I tend to be pretty pushy and the convincing others that I'm right about something or about having something a certain way.
    It is not "typical" for an LSE to major in philosophy in college.

    Being "idealistic" and a focus on "being right" can just be an E1w9 sort of thing.

    How do you deal with management/leadership?
    Are you more likely to set up plans and delegate things to other people, expecting them to do the work?
    Or are you more likely to set up plans and feel personally responsible for carrying them out? Why, etc


    And in general, talk about how you view/see/experiences you've had with working with others. That might help. . .


    PS: Marista is a bit weird and has her own way of going about typing. So if you haven't figured it out already, she's sort of an unusual person in terms of socionics and also in terms of being a representative of her proclaimed self typing.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    It is not "typical" for an LSE to major in philosophy in college.

    Being "idealistic" and a focus on "being right" can just be an E1w9 sort of thing.

    How do you deal with management/leadership?
    Are you more likely to set up plans and delegate things to other people, expecting them to do the work?
    Or are you more likely to set up plans and feel personally responsible for carrying them out? Why, etc


    And in general, talk about how you view/see/experiences you've had with working with others. That might help. . .


    PS: Marista is a bit weird and has her own way of going about typing. So if you haven't figured it out already, she's sort of an unusual person in terms of socionics and also in terms of being a representative of her proclaimed self typing.
    Me, INFj, love all people.
    ESTj, also love all people until one gets too far.
    Duals because we both love romance so we can be romantic together. They say the wrong thing sometimes without really meaning it and they can be anti-social at times as well.
    ESTj may or may not like being boss but don't like managing people. Out of the sense of controlling the environment and making sure everything runs well or as it should.
    INFj love to manage people. Both are idealistic because both expect a sense of right fit.
    ESTj's love art, philosophy, world affairs, politics, environment, animals, humans (so past socionics literature got a lot wrong about them) etc...
    MBTI got a lot wrong about people too.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 03-11-2010 at 11:58 PM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Are you more willing to sacrifice the now for later on, or sacrifice from later on to satisfy for now. Decisive/Judicious.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Are you more willing to sacrifice the now for later on, or sacrifice from later on to satisfy for now. Decisive/Judicious.
    Judicious

    Become aware of their own mobilization as soon as it manifests – i.e., as soon as they start considering an action. However, they are often poorly aware of the periods of maximal mobilization – i.e., the time of action.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Are you more willing to sacrifice the now for later on, or sacrifice from later on to satisfy for now. Decisive/Judicious.
    sacrifice later for now.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    I'm ESTp. Read it and weep. LivingHappy2Day's Avatar
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    Is either an ENTj or ESTj or both more likely to find enjoyment of frequently conceptualizing fantasy/imaginative worlds, stories, and systems- often revolving around warfare or survival, such as video game plot lines and political policy implementations for a sustainable society?

    The conceptualizing revolves around the same select projects and concepts, gradually improving each over a long period of time as more exterior information is gathered. The goal of each project is to sell the story scripts to game development companies and publish a political book that may be used in future generations. Thus, the projects are pursued as an fun-time interest, but also have an intended purpose.

    Story lines are dynamic, in which they contain multiple complex characters that are intertwined; rather than a single linear character.

    Or is this an ENTp interest?

    Input is much appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Headed View Post
    Is either an ENTj or ESTj or both more likely to find enjoyment of frequently conceptualizing fantasy/imaginative worlds, stories, and systems- often revolving around warfare or survival, such as video game plot lines and political policy implementations for a sustainable society?

    The conceptualizing revolves around the same select projects and concepts, gradually improving each over a long period of time as more exterior information is gathered. The goal of each project is to sell the story scripts to game development companies and publish a political book that may be used in future generations. Thus, the projects are pursued as an fun-time interest, but also have an intended purpose.

    Story lines are dynamic, in which they contain multiple complex characters that are intertwined; rather than a single linear character.

    Or is this an ENTp interest?

    Input is much appreciated.
    Your description sounds more LIE than LSE.

    Both types are driven to achieve competence.

    However, an LSE (Te/Si) is going to focus on what has been successfully done in the past in areas concerning personal comfort or social status, like reading books on architecture or the biographies of great men, in order to understand how others have previously achieved their goals. Their focus in on "How can I achieve the personal competence and respect required to build a stable and comfortable space for my loved ones?"

    An LIE (Te/Ni) is also going to look at what has worked in the past, but their focus will be more future-oriented and more political, as in, "How can I get the political power necessary to build a better world in the future for everyone?"

    To understand what an ILE (ENTp) focuses on, just watch Rick in a few episodes of "Rick and Morty." ILE's can be incredibly astute about politics and the structure of societies, but they don't seem to want to improve things for the benefit of others. They like to gain knowledge, play with their many, many toys, and have a good time.

    "find enjoyment of frequently conceptualizing fantasy/imaginative worlds, stories, and systems- often revolving around warfare or survival, such as video game plot lines and political policy implementations for a sustainable society" sounds very ILE or LIE. But "The conceptualizing revolves around the same select projects and concepts, gradually improving each over a long period of time as more exterior information is gathered" sounds more LIE than ILE. ILE's tend to shift their interests frequently. It's as if gaining knowledge is important to ILE's, but not as important as changing the subject.

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Not you...he is ESTj; sorry, crazy me...yes the first part about ESTj/ENTj is somewhat correct...ESTj know how food makes them feel, they know what to eat, when they need to shower; ENTj's don't know, they are very hectic in this regard. Both are very romantic...are you, RESPUTIN, romantic?
    We should get you your own forum: theoneandonlytype.info, with an alternative domain name estj.info. If you want me too, just register the domain names and I will host a forum for you free of charge. I'll even let you be webmaster and you can go completely ballistic on it. Are you interested?
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I don't know how to do any tech stuff...oh that's another question RASPUTIN, how are you with technology, especially high technology?
    Didn't you read my post? I'll take care of the tech stuff, you can go act out in any way you wish. I'll even make you webmaster of the forum! You know what that means? You'll get to ban people if you don't like them or if they are mean to you! That would be awesome, not?

    You claim to be Ne-creative. Think of the possibilities! ESTjs will flock in, you'll have them all to yourself! Come on, this is a once-in-a-lifetime, how can you decline?
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    NO
    I don't like to ban people...that's not nice.
    Yawn... you'll never get anywhere in life being a pussy like that.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I don't care.
    I love all people and value the existence of all humanity; I don't need to get anywhere in specific.
    Ah well, I was going to respond, but lets not derail another thread because of silly you.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    It's hard to even read what you write, but this is just flat out wrong.
    ESTj, also love all people until one gets too far.

    Also,
    Where did he go? Why isn't he responding?
    You probably scared him off with all the bat-shit insane stuff.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Me, INFj, love all people.
    ESTj, also love all people until one gets too far.
    Duals because we both love romance so we can be romantic together. They say the wrong thing sometimes without really meaning it and they can be anti-social at times as well.
    ESTj may or may not like being boss but don't like managing people. Out of the sense of controlling the environment and making sure everything runs well or as it should.
    INFj love to manage people. Both are idealistic because both expect a sense of right fit.
    ESTj's love art, philosophy, world affairs, politics, environment, animals, humans (so past socionics literature got a lot wrong about them) etc...
    MBTI got a lot wrong about people too.
    You're answering a question that wasn't asked to you...
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Where did he go? Why isn't he responding?
    Uhhh.........

    Why are you so concerned about that?

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