Another reason for my typing: INFj-ESTp conflict relations

[Shagbag The Wizard]

Lol, Cyclops thanks, your post made me laugh.

I admit the behaviour was very attention-seeking, but as I said, it was not my idea to begin with. It was a totally wild IEI thing that I just went along with because, as usual, my compels me to accommodate the people I'm with.

I will say I was very uncomfortable at first, but their IEI high spirits helped me come out of my shell a bit. And in any case, other people were dressed as fairies and worse, so the monk thing was relatively mild, lol.


My did derive some ethical satisfaction from the ordeal, as we felt we were making an important moral statement about religious bigotry, so ultimately I was glad we did it. :wink:



And yes, I've been around. I'm from South Africa but I've lived in both the US and the UK, and will be moving to Australia hopefully before the end of the year.



I actually hate travelling for the mere fact that it's exhausting, carting bags and shit through airports. However I do enjoy seeing new places and cultures. Omg, I would LOVE to do the Amazing Race someday!

[stanprollyright]

....he proclaims in a completely obnoxious and pompous tone.

What you perceive as pomposity is just me trying to explain myself as clearly as possible.

You made my defense for me

But when I speak of your "pomposity" I'm basically talking about how you, as a relative newcomer to socionics, are pretty much set in your opinion even though right from the get go you had several people with greater knowledge of socionics question your self-typing.

As for being obnoxious, well, you are. But that's not always a bad thing.

Seems like the only person being offended here is you?

I'm not offended, I was just remarking upon your username being "shagbag", your intro thread being called "hey bitches," among other things.

Stan, I'm not disregarding you, just pulling your leg every now and then.
I do value your input, in case there was any Doubt about that.

Cool. While I don't doubt that you value my input, I don't think you're taking it seriously enough. Obviously, I disbelieve your self-typing and have no faith in your typing of other people. Your understanding of Model A and the IM elements is poor. I don't want to offend you or insinuate you're stupid, but I also don't want you going around with a bunch of misconceptions.

[Satan]

does that ****** ever shut up

[Solidad]

Takes one to know one! :wink:

In retrospect, I regret nothing.

Without the bad there is no good. This is the nature of the universe. Destruction is merely a form of creation.

Hey, I appreciate your bravery & philosophical mind (the above concept was nicely put)!

I agree with many of your statements. My only caveat would be that sometimes what is "created," out of destruction is not necessarily something strong or good. Sure, some people survive or thrive after abuse ... but many others do *not*...or (even) go down hill. One only needs to look at statistics of people suffering from personality disorders, substance abuse, survivors of war, natural disaster, massive poverty, and sexual or physical abuse worldwide to see the reality...that transformations after destruction are not necessarily positive outcomes. :-(

The percentage of people that are *ok* or doing *great* after these kinds of events is pretty slim. In 2005... for even a fairly wealthy industrialized nation like the US... suicides outnumbered homicides 2 to 1. Obviously, not everyone is doing so hunky-dory... in our high-pressure, Se-dominant, bi-polar nation (there is a book by the same name that I want to look up).

On a thread regarding LSE's in relationships, I wrote an extended (and most-likely TMI) post regarding my own personal experiences with other personality types (beyond LSE) and I can say that sometimes people survive trauma ...and the result is not necessarily a stronger or tougher person in the aftermath...at least not for me.

Smarter (using Ti)? yes! --- tougher (Se)? hell no!!!

I am a spazzy, quirky, easily distracted, mushy little muppet character in IRL --no Se bravado for me (maybe unfortunately) :-(
My Ti boring analytical side comes out more when I write but I don't use it as much in face-to-face interactions -

Anyway....So, I'm especially glad to see EIIs (your posts as an example) remaining relatively unscathed after being fucked-over by people.

You've gone through a lot of crap & still retain your internal strength...and I think that is cool -- good on ya mate! :wink:

Also, I admire that you are open with your sexual orientation, while a lot of bigots are going to give you shit for their own F*cked up predujudices.

Ya, like you said...I won't go into that more cause I don't want to derail topic

Yes, been through some extremely rough patches. Was forced to adopt/develop behaviours to compensate for weaknesses in those areas, which is, again, another reason people are not buying the INFj thing just yet. As we peel through the layers it may become clearer.

Ya, I know... I totally get it. I totally feel for you, dude! (sorry, I talk that way..saying "dude" and all...but that is because all my best friends are guys --lol! and that's how they talk sometimes) Anyway, don't worry about stuff I've said about my life in other threads -- I kind of talked about extreme experiences...but I really believe that everyone's pain, past experience, & specific circumstances are important & to be respected.

I think you've gone through major shit & I know its affecting your personality core!

As for other people who aren't "buying the INFJ thing"....

Welp! that's not your responsibility -- sometimes people just can't see stuff & all the explaining or examples you could give are for naught....that's not your problem.

I'm even thinking you might be INFJ with subtype Ne (that is also my subtype) and these types of EII tend to be more outgoing, joking around, analytical, use of hyperbole (for fun, teasing, & expression), seem more social, & are able to be go-betweens for different personality types (though at the expense of considerable energy exhaustion in the effort, since they are still truly introverts at heart) and are sometimes even able to handle & direct/lead/inspire large groups of people in a job, school, or volunteer situation ((...again...though, with considerable expenditure of energy as a negative repercussion.))

EII's (subtype Ne) can appear popular & outgoing for short periods of time (like you mentioned you can do) but then over-extend & may quickly retreat to reserve energy & process information. I think that EIIs with subtype Ne really need to *feed* the Ne creative idea portion of their mind as well as analyze ideas with Ti more than the EII with subtype of Fi.

I have a couple of EII -subtype Fi- friends & they are *definitely* very much more quiet & reserved (the normal stereotype you hear about EII's) than me - they seem to be more attuned to Si...sweet...yet ...quietly & physically more attuned, while I am more inside my head, vocally throwing out my ideas...attuned to changing Ni creation (ideas, concepts, philosophizing & whatnot) & trying to figure out the world around me & then vocalizing it to hash it out in debate or conversation...helping me hone my ideas in the give-and-take. --

Anyway, regarding your subtype...it is just an idea & hunch (I could be wrong... but I'm just throwing out Ne conjecture, after all)

Needless to say, this recognition is greatly appreciated.

cool

Will do a thread on this soon, including parents' types. You are right about the Se influence from the family! Had a lot of that thrown in my face from birth.

Hey, regarding Se influence --me too! -- everyone in my immediate family was aggressor (or Se dominant) In fact, now that I think about it...there were no deltas in my family immediate or expended (on either my mother or father's side) expect one lone exception of my grandfather, who was basically treated by my family as a senile old kook -- So, my heavy Se dominated background... is probably why I'm picking up your INFJ (under residual protection Se mask) signal so well... I really DO believe I know what that is like --

By the way, are you getting overwhelmed yet from the responses to your threads? You are getting a lot of feedback & I know that INFJs can get drained easily. We have high hopes...but sometimes we bite off more than is digestible...hope you are not getting overwhelmed (as I often do)...and if so.. I support you if you ever need to take a break or not respond to posts (at least to me) I won't be offended. :-)

our leading that compels us to act this way (which is not to say it's easy......as you know, the energy requirement is often enormous, especially in cases of )

word! :wink:

ok, that's it for me now shagbag!

Sorry it took so long to reply...and that my post is so F*cking long - lol!

[Solidad]

does that ****** ever shut up

In regards to this statement for Shagbag --

I don't know if you are kidding or not.

However, If you *are* kidding -- then you *sound* like a stupid ass.

And if you are NOT kidding -- then I think you ARE a stupid, homophobic jackass.

by the way, regarding your reference to "******s"...have you recently taken a look at your own avatar?

Per Shakespeare, Mercutio is supposed to be a witty, free-spirited jokester...

Currently, you are piteously failing your namesake.

[UDP]

merc just likes to be sensational
it's good though to see reactions to him, a test if you will

[crazedrat]

merc likes to stir the pot.

stanprollyright:



IMHO.. these may be extreme (unfair) stereotypes of Beta --

First off, what is considered "obnoxious" is subjective (by individual & quadra)

"pomposity" might be expressed in any individual (depending on multiple factors)

"complete disregard" is an absolute phrase and therefore most-likely invalid

---

One of my friends is IEI subtype NI....he has a very mellow, accepting, sweet heart - understanding, a great listener, a larger sense of the world, with a subtle but dark quirky/ironic sense of humor -- nothing like what you are describing above for Beta-

I think that quadra preference because of comfort & affiliation is healthy but that quadra prejudice is not.

this here is well said. that's how i come across in real life, even .. you wouldn't be able to tell from on here.

[thePirate]

In regards to this statement for Shagbag --

I don't know if you are kidding or not.

However, If you *are* kidding -- then you *sound* like a stupid ass.

And if you are NOT kidding -- then I think you ARE a stupid, homophobic jackass.

by the way, regarding your reference to "******s"...have you recently taken a look at your own avatar?

Per Shakespeare, Mercutio is supposed to be a witty, free-spirited jokester...

Currently, you are piteously failing your namesake.

dont be gay dude

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Solidad, you feel the need to 'defend' Shagbag? fwiw I don't think he's particularly bothered, or that he's being ganged up upon....

I'm curious though, if you do, why? As you seem to be posting a fair amount of replies on his behalf...

Edit: Also curious, you know your type? If so what is it/what ones do you consider most likely?

[Solidad]

merc just likes to be sensational
it's good though to see reactions to him, a test if you will

Hey, thanks for letting me know that this is just BS provocative talk --

I don't like people being bullied (I've experienced it enough myself) & I can't handle when that is happening right in front of me -

I'm EII but I'm not a wilting flower when it comes to defending ideas I believe in (or people I believe in).

[Solidad]

dont be gay dude

I'm only trying to follow in your footsteps.

[Solidad]

merc likes to stir the pot.

this here is well said. that's how i come across in real life, even .. you wouldn't be able to tell from on here.

Cool -

& thanks for clarifying about merc (as Ryu just let me know as well)

[Solidad]

Solidad, you feel the need to 'defend' Shagbag? fwiw I don't think he's particularly bothered, or that he's being ganged up upon....

I'm curious though, if you do, why? As you seem to be posting a fair amount of replies on his behalf...

Edit: Also curious, you know your type? If so what is it/what ones do you consider most likely?

I think words like ******, ******, & whore are worthy of being protested... whether a specific person is involved or not

I don't think that sexual-orientation bashing, race-bashing, or gender-bashing is "funny" or "intelligent" -- sure, I understand a majority of the population gets their shits & giggles from this crap but I don't - that's all

--

I haven't really replied on "his behalf" so much.. huh?

I've replied to HIM a lot, though - the thread was for him -

I like shagbag's statements & I empathize with him - that is pretty normal

Why are you so concerned about it? that seems wierd to me --

regarding my type, I've posted several times that I'm INFJ subtype Ne

I started a thread in introductions for this.

What is your type?

Anyway, I respect your imput thought I don't really understand your interest

No one asks why Shagbag has people questioning him, insulting him, or attacking him left & right?

so why would you ask why someone defends him?

(this seems lopsided but cest la vie!)

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I think words like ******, ******, & whore are worthy of being protested... whether a specific person is involved or not

I don't think that sexual-orientation bashing, race-bashing, or gender-bashing is "funny" or "intelligent" -- sure, I understand a majority of the population gets their shits & giggles from this crap but I don't - that's all

--

I haven't really replied on "his behalf" so much.. huh?

I've replied to HIM a lot, though - the thread was for him -

I like shagbag's statements & I empathize with him - that is pretty normal

Why are you so concerned about it? that seems wierd to me --

regarding my type, I've posted several times that I'm INFJ subtype Ne

I started a thread in introductions for this.

What is your type?

Anyway, I respect your imput thought I don't really understand your interest

No one asks why Shagbag has people questioning him, insulting him, or attacking him left & right?

so why would you ask why someone defends him?

(this seems lopsided but cest la vie!)

So many questions in return!

Ah, OK, to clarify, when I said to him, you may be an INFj, but you are definately a gay, I was joking. Shagbag has already said that he's gay, and it amused me how you reacted to that comment, I don't have time to check just now, but it was something like...he's not all that gay, along with something about how most people are somewhere in the middle.

Hmmmm, I intended to give you some advice, but i'm aware that it is MOST PROBABLY that you'll take it the wrong way and fall out with me or something like that.

But here it is, generally:

Your post here and posts in general are very defensive.

You think Shagbag is somehow being "bullied", but ultimately what you are doing is projecting your OWN SENSITIVITY onto him. He's not being bullied, he's being questioned - which is what he wants, and a couple of people have gave their opinion on him, plus made a joke here and there - this is the natural interaction of people. Ultimately, I suspect that when you see yourself as having been bullied - that at least a lot of that comes from your own hypersensitivity towards things.

I recommend that you work on not being so sensitive, as I think it will help you relax and enjoy life some more, and probably not set such perhaps high standards for yourself, and for others, which are most likely impracticle and unworkable.

You may think i'm wrong, but when you say stuff like,

No one asks why Shagbag has people questioning him, insulting him, or attacking him left & right?

and other stuff I don't have time to check, I would have to be skeptical of your jumping to defense.

so why would you ask why someone defends him?

I asked this because I was curious how your mind worked, I already think I understood but I wanted to give you opportunity to say for yourself - hearing someone out.

BTW, none of this is attack, I suppose I just see an EII who's probably still got some coming to terms to reach, but then, haven't we all?

Oh, i'm SLI.

Edit: If there's any of your question I haven't answered but you think are important, let me know, I think i've covered the important ones rather than the irrational emotional ones.

Also - after all this, speak to Shagbag if you really think he has issue with this, he seems a bit too worldy wise to be THAT bothered about stuff over the internet -and he's already said he's looking for people that are worthy of debating with - or something like that, he's not a shrinking violet he's been to many places in world etc after all....

But what you are doing is nice though, I suspect i've done the same myself at times, hehe :-)

[Shagbag The Wizard]

@Merc: lol, you're gonna have to try a bit harder than that.



@Stanprollyright: Hmm, I find you interesting, Stan. Contrary to popular belief, I do in fact take everyone here very seriously, including you, I promise.

However, when I see that people are taking something WAY too seriously, I will push all the necesary buttons to make them stop and look objectively at the situation, which usually helps break the tension a bit.

Hence, I was yanking your chain to lighten you up a bit, lol.

Anyway, you are right, I am aware that there are plenty of people here who know more than me. So if anyone can give me good reasons to change my mind about something, by all means I am listening, I promise. (I'm a tough sell, but not impervious to reason).




@Ryu: you are sneaky, mister, I'm onto you, lol. Also, I'm working on a new thread just for you. Watch this space...




@Sole: as usual, read your thoughts with interest and can relate to 99% of what you are saying! (However, please don't feel obliged to defend me, I can take most criticisms and unfounded accusations well within my stride, in fact I kind of enjoy the back and forth we're all having here, lol.)



Have to get back to work, see you guys a bit later....

[Shagbag The Wizard]

Solidad, you feel the need to 'defend' Shagbag? fwiw I don't think he's particularly bothered, or that he's being ganged up upon....

I'm curious though, if you do, why? As you seem to be posting a fair amount of replies on his behalf...

Actually, this is fairly typical EII behaviour IMO. (Although ESI also comes to mind). We types tend to be very defensive of people we feel close to in some way, but EIIs tend to bark more, and ESIs tend to bite more.


More likely, though, us types rally to moral causes. We rise to the occasion whenever we feel out agenda has been challenged in some way, and in Sol's case, he is agitated by what he perceives as unfair Shag-bashing.

(Sorry for the 3rd-person, Sol, just making a point!)


But now that you know I'm unbashable, Sol, maybe you can ease up a bit and enjoy the show more... :wink:

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Actually, this is fairly typical EII behaviour IMO. (Although ESI also comes to mind). We types tend to be very defensive of people we feel close to in some way, but EIIs tend to bark more, and ESIs tend to bite more.


More likely, though, us types rally to moral causes. We rise to the occasion whenever we feel out agenda has been challenged in some way, and in Sol's case, he is agitated by what he perceives as unfair Shag-bashing.

(Sorry for the 3rd-person, Sol, just making a point!)


But now that you know I'm unbashable, Sol, maybe you can ease up a bit and enjoy the show more... :wink:

I think there is some truth to this, but i'd have to think about it more, I notice the behaviour in enneagram 6 - although i'm reluctant to mix enneagram with socionics in general.

I think it's standard behaviour for people to protect those we feel close to or something along those lines. I can do this myself, and have done IRL, I can also defend the underdog if I feel it is required - and have done. Perhaps it is Fi related, but i'd need to think of other examples of other types, i'd be sure they must exist. Oh, a part of me had thought this could elude to being caregiving related also - as i've seen ESFj's do this sort of thing. I'll think some more when not as busy at work perhaps.

@Sole: as usual, read your thoughts with interest and can relate to 99% of what you are saying! (However, please don't feel obliged to defend me, I can take most criticisms and unfounded accusations well within my stride, in fact I kind of enjoy the back and forth we're all having here, lol.)

Exactly my thoughts, hence I think Solidad, although well intentioned, is misplacing it a little, so I stand by my post and no doubt will be shot....

[Shagbag The Wizard]

so I stand by my post and no doubt will be shot....

Only in the kneecaps. Death is such a waste of good suffering...

[silverchris9]

Per Shakespeare, Mercutio is supposed to be a witty, free-spirited jokester...

Currently, you are piteously failing your namesake.

Actually, Mercutio uses language far more obscene (for his time, and maybe even now if you understand what he means) than "******." AND given that he's probably a repressed homosexual AND that he hates all love and relationships AND that he's not exactly the most welcoming, let's all be friends type guy in the world, while Mercutio is certainly witty and free-spirited after a fashion, to say that 16types Merc fails Shakespeare's Mercutio by using vulgar language is fairly (completely?) inaccurate.

No offense dude (or lady).

Also, thanks for posting. You're obviously EII and its nice to have a very different perspective here. Things get rather one-sided at the16types; most people are either beta or closet betas (kidding. maybe).

[Lobo]

Death is such a waste of good suffering...

This is deep... I would add "good suffering that leads to growth," or something like that.

Actually, Mercutio uses language far more obscene (for his time, and maybe even now if you understand what he means) than "******." AND given that he's probably a repressed homosexual AND that he hates all love and relationships AND that he's not exactly the most welcoming, let's all be friends type guy in the world, while Mercutio is certainly witty and free-spirited after a fashion, to say that 16types Merc fails Shakespeare's Mercutio by using vulgar language is fairly (completely?) inaccurate.

No offense dude (or lady).

Also, thanks for posting. You're obviously EII and its nice to have a very different perspective here. Things get rather one-sided at the16types; most people are either beta or closet betas (kidding. maybe).

On a side note, I've noticed a pattern when it comes to "no offense." It goes like this:

[say whatever you want to say] + "no offense" (either before or after the brackets) = "I want to say something which I know sounds offensive, but don't want to be bothered on how to phrase it differently, or don't want the other person to judge me for being offensive."

Examples:

1: "fuck you!"
2:

and,

1: "fuck you!.. no offense"
2:

[JuJu]

This OP's post is full of Fe...thick with it. Bubbling over!

This thread sums up this site's problems, (and it's not at all your fault shagbag the wizard--lol @ the name shagbag he wizard

1. Shagbag the Wizard, who obviously doesn't know much yet about Socionics, self-types as INFj... Even though the name Shagbag the wizard should be a pretty blatant clue to anyone noticing that this guy is Se/Fe valuing... His intro thread is called "hey bitches." He's friends IRL with one or two of this forum's betas... (Come on people this typing isn't hard.)

2. Despite what he says about SLEs, all typing indicators in his post are rife with Fe and Ti valuing--from the way he 'structures' his posts with segments and colors, (you'll notice I'm doing it here w/ numbers,) to the extreme vocabulary he uses to describe his emotions... These are all hallmarks of Fe and Ti valuing.

3. After shagbag posts, a Socionically ignorant mob rushes in to validate his self-typing with 'I'm trying to be helpful but I'm actually clueless' comments like "I don't see why you couldn't be INFj..." Or "You sound like my INFj boyfriend/aunt/great uncle Clovis who died in 'Nam"..." Etc.

4. This validates Shagbag's incorrect idea that he's INFj. He goes to delta... People identify with him and they go to delta...

5. Everyone's mistyped.

6. ...And the wheel of ignorance at this site keeps turning.



I re-read my post here and it comes off more seriously than I mean it.. I write it with a smile on my face and affection.


Honestly, Shagbag the Wizard, you are probably ENFj--and like me, you are probably relatively quiet, especially in private... Which is maybe why you're identifying with "introverted." I identified with introverted myself in the past, (mis)typing myself Fe-INFp.

That said, it's also possible that you are Fe-INFp... Sometimes it can be tough to tell the difference between Fe-INFp and Fe-ENFj.

There is not, however, a snowball's chance in hell you are delta or INFj... (For an example of INFj, think of Connecticut senator Joseph Liebermann... That's a typical INFj.)


New rule for this forum: the wonderful and luscious crazedrat has lost the privilege to Sociotype anyone "INFj" due to abuse. Crazedrat: Michael Stipe is not INFj, Kurt Cobain is not INFj, and Shagbag the Wizard is not INFj. I am not INFj, either. You are wrong. If you want to regain this right which you've lost, you must watch and re-watch videos of Senator Joseph Liebermann of Connecticut (until you fall asleep... As you surely will...) To learn about the INFj.

[Satan]

In regards to this statement for Shagbag --

I don't know if you are kidding or not.

However, If you *are* kidding -- then you *sound* like a stupid ass.

And if you are NOT kidding -- then I think you ARE a stupid, homophobic jackass.

by the way, regarding your reference to "******s"...have you recently taken a look at your own avatar?

Per Shakespeare, Mercutio is supposed to be a witty, free-spirited jokester...

Currently, you are piteously failing your namesake.

You're not like me.

[Satan]

This is deep... I would add "good suffering that leads to growth," or something like that.




On a side note, I've noticed a pattern when it comes to "no offense." It goes like this:

[say whatever you want to say] + "no offense" (either before or after the brackets) = "I want to say something which I know sounds offensive, but don't want to be bothered on how to phrase it differently, or don't want the other person to judge me for being offensive."

Examples:

1: "fuck you!"
2:

and,

1: "fuck you!.. no offense"
2:

For me it's the opposite.

If someone says "no offence" it's like they're breaking sneaky.

For what it's worth, I've had girls come right up to me, in-my-face and been like "fuck you" and then they've been like "I wanted to see how you'd react".

Thing is, I don't see guys doing that. They're more at a distance if they're like fuck you. So it's like they're not even "with" you, so who cares what they
think ..

[Satan]

How's ENFJ feel.

Take a look at how you're trying to track interactions with everyone, and keep everyone involved.

@Merc: lol, you're gonna have to try a bit harder than that.



@Stanprollyright: Hmm, I find you interesting, Stan. Contrary to popular belief, I do in fact take everyone here very seriously, including you, I promise.

However, when I see that people are taking something WAY too seriously, I will push all the necesary buttons to make them stop and look objectively at the situation, which usually helps break the tension a bit.

Hence, I was yanking your chain to lighten you up a bit, lol.

Anyway, you are right, I am aware that there are plenty of people here who know more than me. So if anyone can give me good reasons to change my mind about something, by all means I am listening, I promise. (I'm a tough sell, but not impervious to reason).




@Ryu: you are sneaky, mister, I'm onto you, lol. Also, I'm working on a new thread just for you. Watch this space...




@Sole: as usual, read your thoughts with interest and can relate to 99% of what you are saying! (However, please don't feel obliged to defend me, I can take most criticisms and unfounded accusations well within my stride, in fact I kind of enjoy the back and forth we're all having here, lol.)



Have to get back to work, see you guys a bit later....

[Marie84]

While I don't disagree with a lot of your post, JuJu, I don't think it's fair to use one example of a type as the prototype for said type.
I agree that Joe is probably an EII, but there are also other factors that make-up for his demeanor, such as his age and position

[Brilliand]

Not hard to see Shagbag as ENFj... actually, Shagbag's posts generally seem rather Beta to me, or like me when I'm at my most outgoing (which I would associate with ). Such things as talking about suffering like it's a good thing are beyond what I would do, though, unless it was for some plan on the grounds that the end justified the means.

[UDP]

Hey, thanks for letting me know that this is just BS provocative talk --

I don't like people being bullied (I've experienced it enough myself) & I can't handle when that is happening right in front of me -

I'm EII but I'm not a wilting flower when it comes to defending ideas I believe in (or people I believe in).

Sure, one would even say that such is a hallmark of being EII.

[UDP]

@Ryu: you are sneaky, mister, I'm onto you, lol. Also, I'm working on a new thread just for you. Watch this space...

Yeah...

Only in the kneecaps. Death is such a waste of good suffering...

"learned behavior" or not, you certainly have a lot of beta emoness. I would actually like the perspective of a gay EII on the forum, but, I'm not sure yet if you are it.

New rule for this forum: the wonderful and luscious crazedrat has lost the privilege to Sociotype anyone "INFj" due to abuse. Crazedrat: Michael Stipe is not INFj, Kurt Cobain is not INFj, and Shagbag the Wizard is not INFj. I am not INFj, either. You are wrong. If you want to regain this right which you've lost, you must watch and re-watch videos of Senator Joseph Liebermann of Connecticut (until you fall asleep... As you surely will...) To learn about the INFj.

There's something rather wrong about the idea that Cobain is EII.
It seems rather laughable to picture Cobain listening to Jack Johnson and feeling 'at peace'.

While I don't disagree with a lot of your post, JuJu, I don't think it's fair to use one example of a type as the prototype for said type.
I agree that Joe is probably an EII, but there are also other factors that make-up for his demeanor, such as his age and position

We'll have to see just how much his position is a factor, mhm.

[stanprollyright]

This OP's post is full of Fe...thick with it. Bubbling over!

This thread sums up this site's problems, (and it's not at all your fault shagbag the wizard--lol @ the name shagbag he wizard

1. Shagbag the Wizard, who obviously doesn't know much yet about Socionics, self-types as INFj... Even though the name Shagbag the wizard should be a pretty blatant clue to anyone noticing that this guy is Se/Fe valuing... His intro thread is called "hey bitches." He's friends IRL with one or two of this forum's betas... (Come on people this typing isn't hard.)

2. Despite what he says about SLEs, all typing indicators in his post are rife with Fe and Ti valuing--from the way he 'structures' his posts with segments and colors, (you'll notice I'm doing it here w/ numbers,) to the extreme vocabulary he uses to describe his emotions... These are all hallmarks of Fe and Ti valuing.
...
Honestly, Shagbag the Wizard, you are probably ENFj--and like me, you are probably relatively quiet, especially in private... Which is maybe why you're identifying with "introverted." I identified with introverted myself in the past, (mis)typing myself Fe-INFp.

That said, it's also possible that you are Fe-INFp... Sometimes it can be tough to tell the difference between Fe-INFp and Fe-ENFj.

There is not, however, a snowball's chance in hell you are delta or INFj... (For an example of INFj, think of Connecticut senator Joseph Liebermann... That's a typical INFj.)

[Shagbag The Wizard]

This is deep... I would add "good suffering that leads to growth," or something like that.

I knew I didn't need to add the growth part because people like you would intuitively know that this was implied.

Also, like the new av. You like wolves, I take it.

[Shagbag The Wizard]

@Juju

Hey man, thanks for the post. You basically outlined the major reasons why people are refusing to accept me as EII.

I think what I need to do is start a new thread on all the reasons why I think I'm EII. Then you guys can carefully go through it, if you have the patience, and let me know where I've gone wrong, or perhaps admit that I was right, whatever, we'll see. This will probably help us all to get to the bottom of this.

For now, I will say a few things in response to your post.

This OP's post is full of Fe...thick with it. Bubbling over!

Yes, Fe is pretty obvious in a lot of my posts, but........what people are struggling to quantify is whether or not this seems to be my leading function. Does Fe seem to be my main "point" or "agenda", or is it possible that I am simply using it as a tool to achieve my overriding Fi agenda?

Unless I am horribly mistaken, is deeply concerned with creating and maintaining positive, harmonious relations with others. Is it so hard to imagine that can be effectively used as a tool to that end?

If indeed I am EII, then is my 7th / ignoring function, of which Wikisocion says the following:

The individual is perfectly able to integrate in a group emotional situations, such as people having fun and trading jokes, and sustain that for a long period of time. He is also usually adept at promoting such an atmosphere himself. However, he sees no point in doing so if his own inner emotional state does not prompt him towards that, especially if he does not feel as having positive private feelings towards the other people involved. He is aware of the need to keep a "polite façade" in certain social situations even in the presence of people he personally dislikes or during periods of negative inner emotions, but he refuses to actively attempt to integrate in, or promote, a positive external emotional atmosphere in such occasions. His disinclination for doing so increases along with his feelings of closeness with the individuals present.

Believe me, when I start to get the sense that I'm not connecting with others and not succeeding in my agenda of establising harmonious relations, I WILL abruptly withdraw into a sullen, brooding state. I WILL remove myself promptly from any situation where I perceive the slightest hint that I am not needed / appreciated / wanted. As I understand it, imposing on others is not the way, and we are very sensitive to this kind of thing and will know exactly when it's time to leave.

I should also clarify that the purpose of my kidding around and apparent out-goingness is less about making me/others "feel good", and is more about making sure that everyone feels at peace with everyone else. In practice, these may seem to be quite similar things to the outside observer, but I am telling you first-hand that what I am consciously aiming for in my posts is harmony with everyone. (I realise this is an over-simplification of Fe and Fi, please, no need to lecture me on this, lol, just see where I'm going with this.)


Unless my understanding of is totally backward, but everything I know about socionics is basically from Wikisocion and Rick's site & Blog, so what more you expect from me at this point I cannot imagine. There must have been a lot of socionics advancements on this forum then, and maybe I missed the train, but then let me know.



Please also note that "etablishing an emotional atmosphere" is described by Wikisocion as being well within the abilities of the EII.



I should also say that establishing harmonious relations was not always easy for me growing up, especially with more conflicting types. Ive had to learn / develop ways to get along with these types. The point is, this has been a compelling urge for me all my life - to find ways to get along with everybody, at whatever emotional/psychological cost to myself, because having any kind of negative vibes with anyone is very stressful for me.

Are these not typical EII qualities? Which other types would be so obsessed with these issues?


As I've grown up, I like to think I have developed a large selection of "tricks" and skills that help me to achieve my agenda and thus keep my sanity. At this point in my life, I believe I can get along pretty well with anybody. Socionics especially has helped me to accept people for who they are and create whatever amount of space is necessary between us to retain harmonious relations (again, that Fi compulsion!)



Now I ask you all, is it REMOTELY POSSIBLE that is just one of those tricks I've developed?

Is it also possible that some EIIs have a more developed than others?

Is it possible that some EIIs may have that is way off the charts for what is typically expected, but they are still EIIs?



Anyone who knows me IRL will confirm that I am NOT an outwardly emotional or excitable person, BUT that I am very good at calming people down and helping them see past their emotions to address the underlying issue and look at the facts. Is this something that EIEs or ESEs for example (or, God forbid IEIs) are good at?


They will also probably tell you that I am funny and "bubbly" when I want to be, but this is by no means my usual state, which is a bit more businesslike and to-the-point.


Also, EVERYONE who knows me will confirm that I am hardly a social person. Social interaction is exhausting to me. I do it well on a professional level, but as soon as the situation becomes "purely social" I'm like a fish out of water. Small talk drives me nuts. In bars, clubs and even family get-togethers there is really only so much polite chit-chat I can tolerate before I want to run away and claw my eyes out (which my forbids, btw, and compels me to suffer in silence for as long as necessary to end the encounter on a positive note).



If all these behaviours I've described don't smack of Delta at the very least, then I have a lot of learning/unlearning ahead of me, lol. Fine.

Even though the name Shagbag the wizard should be a pretty blatant clue to anyone noticing that this guy is Se/Fe valuing

Again, is it so hard to see this as a tool being used for purposes? INFjs have an overpowering need to be liked, or at least not hated. This is essential to our inner calm and sense of "success" in life.

He's friends IRL with one or two of this forum's betas...

I'm only friends with one Beta - JWC3 - and so far he has been very well-behaved, and frankly a very intriguing and atypical SLE. It is his unusual personality that interests me. I understand it is also a very EII trait to be intensely fascinated by other peoples' personalities (it helps us to understand Fi interactions better after all!)


In any case, INFjs are compelled to make an effort to be "friends" (i.e. at peace) with everyone. "Socialities" for their own sake are not part of my agenda.

from the way he 'structures' his posts with segments and colors,

Again, I don't believe this can be taken as any concrete evidence against EII. Just because is my 3rd function, and as my 5th, doesn't mean I am hopeless at those things. I grew up with leading and family members. Is it so hard to imagine I that I have received some level of dualization / strengthening of those functions?

Anyway, as a teacher, I work in an overwhelmingly / environment. Trying make things easier to understand using lists / colors / etc. is a skill I've had to develop (evidently not too successfully, but I would like to think it's at least 'good enough'.)

to the extreme vocabulary he uses to describe his emotions...

Jeremy Irons displays the same ability to vividly describe his feelings about things.

Honestly, Shagbag the Wizard, you are probably ENFj

Fair enough, but I disagree for a number of reasons which I will ofc elaborate on in the new thread I'm gonna have to work on about this topic.

There is not, however, a snowball's chance in hell you are delta or INFj...

Lol, I think that's a bit of a strong statement, but we'll see.

[UDP]

I should also say that establishing harmonious relations was not always easy for me growing up, especially with more conflicting types. Ive had to learn / develop ways to get along with these types. The point is, this has been a compelling urge for me all my life - to find ways to get along with everybody, at whatever emotional/psychological cost to myself, because having any kind of negative vibes with anyone is very stressful for me.

Are these not typical EII qualities? Which other types would be so obsessed with these issues?

Heh, how much do you really know about creative types? I think you might need to broaden your understanding and look at things other than EII profiles and what an EII is or isn't. Too much of that leads to stretching what a type is.

Instead of trying to say you are a certain type or not, try to objectively look at yourself and understand socionics as a whole. I think that may be your next step.

I think your question there is very telling.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

This OP's post is full of Fe...thick with it. Bubbling over!

This thread sums up this site's problems, (and it's not at all your fault shagbag the wizard--lol @ the name shagbag he wizard

1. Shagbag the Wizard, who obviously doesn't know much yet about Socionics, self-types as INFj... Even though the name Shagbag the wizard should be a pretty blatant clue to anyone noticing that this guy is Se/Fe valuing... His intro thread is called "hey bitches." He's friends IRL with one or two of this forum's betas... (Come on people this typing isn't hard.)

2. Despite what he says about SLEs, all typing indicators in his post are rife with Fe and Ti valuing--from the way he 'structures' his posts with segments and colors, (you'll notice I'm doing it here w/ numbers,) to the extreme vocabulary he uses to describe his emotions... These are all hallmarks of Fe and Ti valuing.

3. After shagbag posts, a Socionically ignorant mob rushes in to validate his self-typing with 'I'm trying to be helpful but I'm actually clueless' comments like "I don't see why you couldn't be INFj..." Or "You sound like my INFj boyfriend/aunt/great uncle Clovis who died in 'Nam"..." Etc.

4. This validates Shagbag's incorrect idea that he's INFj. He goes to delta... People identify with him and they go to delta...

5. Everyone's mistyped.

6. ...And the wheel of ignorance at this site keeps turning.



I re-read my post here and it comes off more seriously than I mean it.. I write it with a smile on my face and affection.


Honestly, Shagbag the Wizard, you are probably ENFj--and like me, you are probably relatively quiet, especially in private... Which is maybe why you're identifying with "introverted." I identified with introverted myself in the past, (mis)typing myself Fe-INFp.

That said, it's also possible that you are Fe-INFp... Sometimes it can be tough to tell the difference between Fe-INFp and Fe-ENFj.

There is not, however, a snowball's chance in hell you are delta or INFj... (For an example of INFj, think of Connecticut senator Joseph Liebermann... That's a typical INFj.)


New rule for this forum: the wonderful and luscious crazedrat has lost the privilege to Sociotype anyone "INFj" due to abuse. Crazedrat: Michael Stipe is not INFj, Kurt Cobain is not INFj, and Shagbag the Wizard is not INFj. I am not INFj, either. You are wrong. If you want to regain this right which you've lost, you must watch and re-watch videos of Senator Joseph Liebermann of Connecticut (until you fall asleep... As you surely will...) To learn about the INFj.

I agree a lot about him would suggest not your typical INFj, but people are individuals and you seem to be looking to type him by a bunch of stereotypes.

Personally, i'm willing to consider that he's just a bit more worldly wise than other INFj's here (he's travelled, worked in different countries), and that his gay-ness makes him a bit more flamboyant.

I suppose you could consider Russell Brand (although not gay), but he's pretty 'out there' for an INFj, and also Ritella who used to post here, typed herself as INFj, yet she did stuff like suck off a stranger in a public toilet, so I keep an open mind for now, but I don't discount that you could be right, although maybe for not quite the right reasons! I'll keep an open mind.

[Absurd]

Not hard to see Shagbag as ENFj... actually, Shagbag's posts generally seem rather Beta to me ...

Yes.

[Marie84]

We'll have to see just how much his position is a factor, mhm.

What do you mean?

[UDP]

What do you mean?

It was a pun about being gay.
I'm basically saying that I wonder how much sexual preference, or society's pressures on him because of it, are a factor in him seeming like a "Very beta EII".

[stanprollyright]

Yes, Fe is pretty obvious in a lot of my posts, but........what people are struggling to quantify is whether or not this seems to be my leading function. Does Fe seem to be my main "point" or "agenda", or is it possible that I am simply using it as a tool to achieve my overriding Fi agenda?

Unless I am horribly mistaken, is deeply concerned with creating and maintaining positive, harmonious relations with others. Is it so hard to imagine that can be effectively used as a tool to that end?

You are mistaken. IM elements are not used singularly. You can't use Fe without using Fi and vice versa. When we talk about the "amount of Fe" in your posts, we are specifically referring to valued Fe. This is way oversimplified, but I'll try to explain what I mean anyway. An extroverted element gathers information and projects other behaviors. An introverted element relates that information to yourself. Again, this is way oversimplified, but an Fe type would 1. (Fe) gather information about the emotional atmosphere around, 2. (Fi) decide how he feels about it 3. (Fe) project emotions and manipulate the emotional atmosphere.
And Fi type, on the other hand, 1. (Fi) decides how they feel, 2. (Fe) gathers external emotional information to find out how everyone else feels, 3. (Fi) infer relationships between himself and everyone else. The difference is recognizable to people who know what they're looking for.

I should also clarify that the purpose of my kidding around and apparent out-goingness is less about making me/others "feel good", and is more about making sure that everyone feels at peace with everyone else.

That's Fe.

Unless my understanding of is totally backward, but everything I know about socionics is basically from Wikisocion and Rick's site & Blog, so what more you expect from me at this point I cannot imagine. There must have been a lot of socionics advancements on this forum then, and maybe I missed the train, but then let me know.

That's what we're trying to fix. You know what words are associated with each element, but you don't know what it looks like when it manifests in an actual person's actions.

Please also note that "etablishing an emotional atmosphere" is described by Wikisocion as being well within the abilities of the EII.

It also says that they don't do it often, and not for no reason. Sometimes they blatantly refuse to do anything other than give basic politeness.

I should also say that establishing harmonious relations was not always easy for me growing up, especially with more conflicting types. Ive had to learn / develop ways to get along with these types. The point is, this has been a compelling urge for me all my life - to find ways to get along with everybody, at whatever emotional/psychological cost to myself, because having any kind of negative vibes with anyone is very stressful for me.

Are these not typical EII qualities? Which other types would be so obsessed with these issues?

These are qualities associated with any feeling type, the underlined section might be kinda Fe.

As I've grown up, I like to think I have developed a large selection of "tricks" and skills that help me to achieve my agenda and thus keep my sanity. At this point in my life, I believe I can get along pretty well with anybody. Socionics especially has helped me to accept people for who they are and create whatever amount of space is necessary between us to retain harmonious relations (again, that Fi compulsion!)

Now I ask you all, is it REMOTELY POSSIBLE that is just one of those tricks I've developed?

No. Fe is not a "trick." Using the right lines at a job interview is a trick.

Is it also possible that some EIIs have a more developed than others?

Is it possible that some EIIs may have that is way off the charts for what is typically expected, but they are still EIIs?

While it is possible for people to have some elements more expressed than others of the same type, you're not the Chosen One, your midi-chlorians are not off the charts. No one is even saying your Fe is unnaturally strong, we're saying it's valued.

Anyone who knows me IRL will confirm that I am NOT an outwardly emotional or excitable person, BUT that I am very good at calming people down and helping them see past their emotions to address the underlying issue and look at the facts. Is this something that EIEs or ESEs for example (or, God forbid IEIs) are good at?

They will also probably tell you that I am funny and "bubbly" when I want to be, but this is by no means my usual state, which is a bit more businesslike and to-the-point.

None of this is really type-specific. All this would tell us about you is you're a feeling type.

Also, EVERYONE who knows me will confirm that I am hardly a social person. Social interaction is exhausting to me. I do it well on a professional level, but as soon as the situation becomes "purely social" I'm like a fish out of water. Small talk drives me nuts. In bars, clubs and even family get-togethers there is really only so much polite chit-chat I can tolerate before I want to run away and claw my eyes out

This sounds Fe over Fi as well.

If all these behaviours I've described don't smack of Delta at the very least, then I have a lot of learning/unlearning ahead of me, lol. Fine.

Again, is it so hard to see this as a tool being used for purposes? INFjs have an overpowering need to be liked, or at least not hated. This is essential to our inner calm and sense of "success" in life.

So in other words you value how people feel about you? What part of this says you value your relationships over emotional atmosphere?

I'm only friends with one Beta - JWC3 - and so far he has been very well-behaved, and frankly a very intriguing and atypical SLE. It is his unusual personality that interests me.

The fact that he's your supposed conflictor and that you have no such rapport with any deltas speaks wonders. Plus, being intrigued by him kinda sounds like duality to me

In any case, INFjs are compelled to make an effort to be "friends" (i.e. at peace) with everyone. "Socialities" for their own sake are not part of my agenda.

False. EIIs like to cultivate a small group of close personal relationships. They don't need everyone to like them.

Again, I don't believe this can be taken as any concrete evidence against EII. Just because is my 3rd function, and as my 5th, doesn't mean I am hopeless at those things. I grew up with leading and family members. Is it so hard to imagine I that I have received some level of dualization / strengthening of those functions?

Anyway, as a teacher, I work in an overwhelmingly / environment. Trying make things easier to understand using lists / colors / etc. is a skill I've had to develop (evidently not too successfully, but I would like to think it's at least 'good enough'.)

No one said your Te and Ti were weak or that you were hopeless in them. The remark was that you value Ti and not Te.

Jeremy Irons displays the same ability to vividly describe his feelings about things.

Irrelevant. Why are celebrities even being brought into this?

[Solidad]

I suppose you could consider Russell Brand (although not gay), but he's pretty 'out there' for an INFj

I think russell brand is EIE (subtype ??) now married to katy perry EIE also subtype Fe)

IMO, they make a great identicals pairing -

Also, I'm personally glad that Brand is officially now off the market because he has always given me a stalker-vibe (not to mention looks like charles manson). Ya, he's smart & charming but also super creepy. I'm glad they are getting married. Katy is really strong & will be a great balance for him.

Well, I hope he is not a wacked-out EII anyway.

By the way, Cyclops I'll try to respond to some of your other post statements ..but I just keep getting derailed with (RL) stuff & also sidetracked my other parts of the forum...

I just want you to know that I'm not trying to ignore your questions or statements. It is just that my Ti (understanding) & Te (presenting) is just drained & maxed out last few days -- sorry!--

Also, I feel that every time I respond to stuff (including what I just did now on the Russel brand thing) outside of directly talking to shagbag about his identity (it IS his thread, afterall) ...I feel I am derailing the damn thread

I have to go but will try back tonight or tomorrow

hasta luego!

[Lobo]

I knew I didn't need to add the growth part because people like you would intuitively know that this was implied.

Also, like the new av. You like wolves, I take it.

Yeah, the wolf to me is not a wild animal. It has a strong personality.