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    Creepy-male

    Default A certain type of LII

    So most of the time what words or archtypes do you associate with the LII, usually I think "Scientist", "Analyist", "Rational", "Strategic Thinker", "Problem Solver", "Organized and Methodical", etc.... usually this paints a portrait of what these days would make the ideal scientist or business/civic planner. However I was thinking about another take on the LII, another archtype that could fit the LII.

    What about the archtype of the military strategist, planner, thinker, plotter, analyist.

    This really doesn't exist this day and age, everything is all businessy, but Think Sun Tzu, Think Makievelli, Think Clauswitz, Think Generals and Maps, Think Empires and Plans.... these archtypes and characters used to exist historically....

    What personality types are these archtypes?

    Is the LII a possible fit for any of these... specifically I've played the games Rome Total War, Medevial II Total War, and Empires Total War and all of them are based on empire building in a certain historical setting and it makes me think that alot of it seems very LII and etype 5/8. Its all about laying plans and executing them.

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    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    I can be quite machiavellian at times. I consider myself someone who can get shit done. Give me a problem, I can figure out some kind of way to get results, or at least a way to get to the way to the results. Sometimes I can be Machiavellian. I don't have an ounce of 5 or 8 in me though. It's all for the sake of someone else.
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    Logos's Avatar
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    The "other" set of archetypes that I usually associate with the LII are the Vizier or Court Minister, someone preferring to stay out of the limelight of central power but still assisting the monarch with sound judgment and counsel.
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    General Colin Powell is a good example of a Ti-LII.

    There are probably a lot of Ti-LII generals but Ne-LIIs are certainly more often scientists than soldiers. Depends on subtypes...

    If we talk about DCNH subtypes and their military activities:

    D-LIIs: ??? (I'm not sure if there are D-LII generals)
    C-LIIs: --- (Victor DarkAngelFireWolf69 won't shoot people)
    N-LIIs: many generals like Colin Powell
    H-LIIs: many guerilleros like Che Guevara or Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    General Colin Powell is a good example of a Ti-LII.
    Colin Powell is probably not an LII. I suspect that he is SLE or LSI, but I would have to look closer.
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Colin Powell is probably not an LII. I suspect that he is SLE or LSI, but I would have to look closer.
    I agree, I just watched Powell's interview on Charlie Rose, and LSI seems most likely to me. Probably the Rational subtype (specifically, N-LSI).

    Also, Bin Laden and Guevara are most likely IEI, but we've had that discussion before, and there's no need to get into it here.

    [Edit: I'm not sure if Machiavelli was LIE, or Dominant LII. I would have to do more research.]
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    General Colin Powell is a good example of a Ti-LII.

    There are probably a lot of Ti-LII generals but Ne-LIIs are certainly more often scientists than soldiers. Depends on subtypes...

    If we talk about DCNH subtypes and their military activities:

    D-LIIs: ??? (I'm not sure if there are D-LII generals)
    C-LIIs: --- (Victor DarkAngelFireWolf69 won't shoot people)
    N-LIIs: many generals like Colin Powell
    H-LIIs: many guerilleros like Che Guevara or Osama bin Laden
    bin Laden is IEI.

    Powell is LII-SLE.

    DarkAngelFireWolf69 is LII-LSI.

    I can't disagree with the notion that Guevara is LSI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    bin Laden is IEI.

    Powell is LII-SLE.

    DarkAngelFireWolf69 is LII-LSI.

    I can't disagree with the notion that Guevara is LSI.
    Hey tcaudillg -- do you have a link to whatever the subtype theory is where you take two types with a dash between them like LII-SLE

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    This really doesn't exist this day and age, everything is all businessy, but Think Sun Tzu, Think Makievelli, Think Clauswitz, Think Generals and Maps, Think Empires and Plans.... these archtypes and characters used to exist historically....
    Maximillien Robbespiere is one of the most oft cited examples of INTj among the east european socionists. I'd say he fits right into your list.

    Was Machiavelli an INTj? I'd like to think so, but ENTj is another likely possibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Was Machiavelli an INTj? I'd like to think so, but ENTj is another likely possibility.
    Well possibily, but when I think LII I think about planning alot as a major theme, like abstract thought for the purposes of planning something out strategically to accomplish an objective.

    In this sense Machiavelli seems to have some major LII themes in his writting because its all about how to plan to seize power in a way that today seems completely manipulative and wrong, but back then was the way people in power thought.

    One of his quotes was "Men ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so that the injury done to a man ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared. "

    Basically that was kind of like Machiavelli, its all about plotting for power, how to achieve it, how to maintain it etc.

    As you can see the predominate themes of that quote is very um 5/8 -- its all about fearing the ill will of those competing for power against you but its in a more cerebral thought out methodical way.

    Anyways its likely Machiavelli was LIE, but because Ti does appear strongly in the subconcious its likely LII's will find the writtings interesting in a way Machiavelli may not have intended....

    I think a stronger candidate for LII is Sun Tzu, he is all about taking things from "First Principles" in a more way.

    For whatever reason I have an intuition that possibilty clauswitz is more LII, because the prussian military was alot more um the whole german Ti and IxxJ thing (LSI soldiers and LII generals) - in fact napoleon exploited the way the prussian military worked in one battle, but anyways, Machiavelli on the other hand was around in the italian military tradition which is more in tune with the roman LIE thing... if that makes any sense... its just a guess though.

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    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    Machiavelli was a 3w2--the most pragmatic type.

    He wrote The Prince as a guide for princes, he wasn't very power hungry himself, he just kept getting fucked over.
    Last edited by electric sheep; 12-30-2009 at 01:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by electric sheep View Post
    Machiavelli was a 3w2--the most pragmatic type.

    He wrote The Prince as a guide for princes, he wasn't very power hungry himself, he just kept getting fucked over.
    its not about all of that, really you should look at the major themes of Machiavelli/The Prince and compare it to the major themes of the Enneagram Types....

    I don't find 3w2 to make sense, because the themes of 3's and 2's are all about shame and looking for approval by being a productive worthy person and being lovable. 3/2's are charming model citizens who are productive and really want to prove their place in the world. 3's are confronting approval seeking and 2's are embracing power seeking, nothing in the themes of The Prince are about confronting people for their approval or embracing others to gain power.... Machiavelli's approach was more pragmatic like you said it was do what made sense to perserve order and power not what wins you approval and love.... he even says in a quote "It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both" -- thats completely diametric to the wishes of 3's and 2's, 3w2's want to be loved and feel worthy because they are productive model citizen's.

    I mean the theme of a certain type of "Prince" works well for a 3w2, but not the kind of Prince Machiavelli presents in The Prince, and definitally not what the reality of being a Prince in medevial italy was like... but in all fairness I haven't read The Prince I've only read about it and know alot of quotes from it and I've heard people use the terms "Oh thats very MAchiavellian" or I've heard people quote the central idea of Machiavelli's philosophy of ends justify the means.

    BTW where did you get the idea that 3w2's are the most pragmatic, because I honestly think thats whats throwing you off, maybe your getting to much out of that idea without understanding what it really means, and perhaps you may even have to reconsider you own type, alternatively you may know something I have missed.

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    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    its not about all of that, really you should look at the major themes of Machiavelli/The Prince and compare it to the major themes of the Enneagram Types....

    I don't find 3w2 to make sense, because the themes of 3's and 2's are all about shame and looking for approval by being a productive worthy person and being lovable. 3/2's are charming model citizens who are productive and really want to prove their place in the world. 3's are confronting approval seeking and 2's are embracing power seeking, nothing in the themes of The Prince are about confronting people for their approval or embracing others to gain power.... Machiavelli's approach was more pragmatic like you said it was do what made sense to perserve order and power not what wins you approval and love.... he even says in a quote "It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both" -- thats completely diametric to the wishes of 3's and 2's, 3w2's want to be loved and feel worthy because they are productive model citizen's.
    ok, first I'm talking about 3w2 not 2/3. You talk about 3s wanting to be a model citizen, but why not a model prince? Is being a prince not within the scope of a 3? Certainly it is. Even moreso is being the "model prince".
    I mean the theme of a certain type of "Prince" works well for a 3w2, but not the kind of Prince Machiavelli presents in The Prince, and definitally not what the reality of being a Prince in medevial italy was like... but in all fairness I haven't read The Prince I've only read about it and know alot of quotes from it and I've heard people use the terms "Oh thats very MAchiavellian" or I've heard people quote the central idea of Machiavelli's philosophy of ends justify the means.
    If I had the book with me, I'd quote it. But Machiavelli's philosophy is not exactly "the ends justify the means" though, it's much more image focused. In short, it's that dubious methods can be used to achieve a worthy goal, and as long as you keep people focused on the outcome they wont mind. It's not really "justifying" the means, it's just saying the people wont object to the horrible things you must do to maintain power as long as the outcome is good for them.
    BTW where did you get the idea that 3w2's are the most pragmatic, because I honestly think thats whats throwing you off, maybe your getting to much out of that idea without understanding what it really means, and perhaps you may even have to reconsider you own type, alternatively you may know something I have missed.
    well... the focus on being pragmatic and flexible is in every 3 profile.
    3 - Enneagram Type Three: The Achiever
    The Success-Oriented, Pragmatic Type: Adaptable, Excelling, Driven, and Image-Conscious
    Every 3 profile talks about how highly adaptable and/or pragmatic 3s are. They are similar things because a 3 does what they must to succeed. Rules are too much of a hindrance sometimes. Also, 3s are in the center of the competency group, meaning they try to benefit from rules (like a 1) while not being burdened by them (like a 5).
    Ones operate inside the rules, following them so well that no one would dare question their integrity. By contrast, Fives tend to operate outside of the rules. Threes want to play it both ways, having the benefit of the rules and structures while not having the restrictions.
    Threes get into conflicts by being overly pragmatic: by ignoring conventions and rules. The things they do can seem downright dishonest... even "Machiavellian" sometimes. Being pragmatic means to be practical--not ideological. It also means you are free to do what you want if it brings the outcome you desire. Being a good prince doesn't mean being doing the right thing all the time, because as he said:
    "Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil." (you can't please everyone, even though you may try)

    "Whosoever desires constant success must change his conduct with the times." (you must be flexible and pragmatic to succeed)

    "The promise given was a necessity of the past: the word broken is a necessity of the present." (there's no compelling reason to be honest all the time)
    keep in mind this is in contrast to historical writings of the time like "Utopia" that promote a sort of ideal way a monarch is supposed to behave. He is being realistic here, much in the way 3s are supposed to be--unlike those pesky 1s and 5s that are all about theories and ideologies... a 1 probably wrote Utopia.

    When he says it's better to be feared than loved, if you can't be both: that's all image related. That's how it would appear that he is moving against--seeking power, but really he is looking for his place in Italian politics. He wants to be a good prince/politician. Everything he suggests in the Prince is necessary (in his view) to be a good prince, in the same way success is defined for every 3 by his/her culture. Being a good prince requires a good image, as he says:
    It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles. (must have a good image)
    Don't focus too much on the 2 side of being loved. That's a far cry from the competency focus of 3.
    Last edited by electric sheep; 12-30-2009 at 06:29 AM.
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