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    I still want to understand why it seems to be so easy to misunderstand or be confused about these things. Since I have been wrong about these things in the past, I can never be 100 % sure that I am right now, even though I have never been as sure as I am now.
    I think in retrospect that it would probably be amazing if people weren't confused by Socionics typing, given the unclear and conflicting definitions, the difficulty of dealing with complexities in one's own personality at the same time as one recognizes potential weaknesses in the theory, and, fundamentally, the fact that typology constructs can apply at many levels.

    This last thing is something I don't think has been addressed enough. The theory is that one is an ABCd, and everything follows from that. But in fact, it's quite possible that different types come into play at different levels. This is too complicated to explain in one short post, but it seems to me, for example, that someone might within the domain of INTj have viewpoints that are INTp (that is to be the INTp of INTjs) or may think in an ENTp way but socially be INTp (not just a shy ENTP, but rather someone who uses in relating to others and values in others), etc. These kinds of things are possible because the model that we think with just a few "functions" is probably a simplification of things that are enormously more complex.

    That said, since you have a sense of being quite certain of your type, and many things are falling into place, you have an opportunity to document your certainty...create sound definitions from it, and build a more rigorous model than exists now....Certainty is valuable, and you never know how long it will last.

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    It's probably more to do with a lack of F then a lot of . Plus people around here mix up intuition and ethics up all the time and he's communicating across a internet forum not IRL. He is probably a INTj.
    Personally, I tend to agree that within Socionics theory as generally presented, he probably is. The idea that he's anything else really isn't about him; rather, he serves as a "proxy" or symbol for questioning the theory itself.

    Augusta chose Robespierre as the model of INTj is like. As you may recall, Robespierre came to power in France after the French revolution because he seemed smarter than everyone else; and once in power, he was committed to uncompromising implemention of his radical ideas, which he believed with a passion. And then he ended up killing everybody who didn't agree him, causing the whole thing to fall apart until Napolean took over.

    I think it was Joy who got this thread going again by stating that she saw a lot of in SG. Basically, when people see someone who's highly competent and good at driving his own agenda and isn't highly sensitive about other people's feelings, they assume it's ; they can't believe that it isn't ; but Socionists would probably say that it's weak that we're seeing....That is, that with Robespierre types, instead of interacting with people via , what you see more is a sort of anti that causes them to appear sarcastic, bossy, etc. (and by the way, I'm not talking about SG personally here, but again, the type, the Robespierre model of what INTj is).

  3. #43
    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
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    Default Sergei Ganin

    Anyone else here think that Sergei Ganin isn't an INTj?

  4. #44
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    I don't know him so I can't say

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    Default Re: Sergei Ganin

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Anyone else here think that Sergei Ganin isn't an INTj?
    It's certainly possible.
    Yes, but extremely unlikely.

  6. #46
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    LSI
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  7. #47
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    he's too funny (to me) to be and LSI

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    I've had some discussions with him which at that time were pretty INTJ like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    LSI
    That's plausible.
    No it's not. To think that it's likely that Ganin is any other type than LII is just silly -- even if your name is Gilly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    LSI
    That's plausible.
    No it's not. To think that it's likely that Ganin is any other type than LII is just silly -- even if your name is Gilly.
    lol.






    O, I think Ganin LII>LSI

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    LSI
    That's plausible.
    No it's not. To think that it's likely that Ganin is any other type than LII is just silly -- even if your name is Gilly.
    Well, I can't claim to know him very well, but that was my general impression of him. Just throwing my opinion out there.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    LSI
    That's plausible.
    No it's not. To think that it's likely that Ganin is any other type than LII is just silly -- even if your name is Gilly.
    Because he's supposed to know his stuff, so he couldn't be wrong about that?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    LSI
    That's plausible.
    No it's not. To think that it's likely that Ganin is any other type than LII is just silly -- even if your name is Gilly.
    lol.






    O, I think Ganin LII>LSI
    hahahaha

    yes he's LII...that's why he's so brutal in his entp descriptions...effing mirror.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

  14. #54
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    Yeah, no fucking kidding...

    http://socionics.com/prof/entp2.htm

    Doesn't exactly go light on SLEs either
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  15. #55
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    I think that's why I like him... his "brutality" and caustic personality is funny (also that one poll on his site where it's just a hand and the question "Do you?" lol I still laugh at that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    I think that's why I like him... his "brutality" and caustic personality is funny (also that one poll on his site where it's just a hand and the question "Do you?" lol I still laugh at that
    o man! I seriously didn't get that.
    Till I read your post. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    LSI
    That's plausible.
    No it's not. To think that it's likely that Ganin is any other type than LII is just silly -- even if your name is Gilly.
    Because he's supposed to know his stuff, so he couldn't be wrong about that?
    Of course he can -- hypothetically. But if he really knows his stuff, it is highly unlikely that he is wrong about his own type. And since I know enough about Socionics to tell that he really knows what he is talking about most of the time, I know that we have no legitimate reason to doubt that he is right about his own type. The chances are much, much greater that those who doubt his type are wrong than that he is.

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    People who doubt his type do this by only looking at his writings.

    As I said before, it's very difficult to type someone based solely on his forum writings.

    You just have to meet him in person, then there won't be an inch of doubt.

    I find it nearly useless to discuss someone's type when you haven't been face to face.

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    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
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    Ganin doesn't seem like an intuitive person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Ganin doesn't seem like an intuitive person.
    He really does seem like an INTj based on my personal encounters with him on the Internet. Our relation seem like a clear example of Quasi-Identity. But I am not arguing that he is an INTj based on that. None of us has any legitimate reason to question his self-typing unless we have met him in real life face to face. And even then we probably would not have reason to doubt his type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Ganin doesn't seem like an intuitive person.
    He really does seem like an INTj based on my personal encounters with him on the Internet. Our relation seem like a clear example of Quasi-Identity. But I am not arguing that he is an INTj based on that. None of us has any legitimate reason to question his self-typing unless we have met him in real life face to face. And even then we probably would not have reason to doubt his type.
    ...unless we chose to do so
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Well, I agree that we can't really type him without knowing him that well...it's kind of arrogance on our part to say we know his type unless one really has interacte with him. But we can mention our impressions, if they come with an understanding that they could be wrong.

    And concerning impressions, I can see why people say LSI (and have said so on previous posts). I remember he reacted very forcefully on his own forum against anyone who had any sort of idea he considered to be "out there." I can see why people would see this as LSI. LIIs are supposed to be interested in discussing new ideas and open to different ideas. However, I suppose an LII might really like his own ideas and therefore react strongly against other people's contrary ideas....That would be Robespierre, I guess.

    A lot of stuff that's not type-related may be at issue, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I can see why people would see this as LSI. LIIs are supposed to be interested in discussing new ideas and open to different ideas. However, I suppose an LII might really like his own ideas and therefore react strongly against other people's contrary ideas....That would be Robespierre, I guess.
    Yeah, it's kind of a weird thing about INTjs. They are open to new ideas to a point, but if they find them clearly absurd or counter to their own considered views they may not even give you the time of day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I can see why people would see this as LSI. LIIs are supposed to be interested in discussing new ideas and open to different ideas. However, I suppose an LII might really like his own ideas and therefore react strongly against other people's contrary ideas....That would be Robespierre, I guess.
    Yeah, it's kind of a weird thing about INTjs. They are open to new ideas to a point, but if they find them clearly absurd or counter to their own considered views they may not even give you the time of day.
    That probably explains SG and my (and others') reaction to him pretty well. I and others were coming from a very different place. At least he didn't chop our heads off the way Robespierre would have.

    One thing this touches on, I think, is a possible misconception about LSIs and Se in general. People generally view what they see as forceful behavior as suggesting Se...and suggesting LSI in particular if it seems dictatorial. However, in my experience, types with Se want to be in charge in a certain way, but they don't care so much whose idea wins. They're actually somewhat oblivious to other people's ideas (and to who's right or wrong), and focused more on accomplishing their own purpose.

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by WhyMustWeKill View Post
    SG have you ever had a need to be unique. To be a non conformist.

    SG:
    Do you want an honest answer? Never had such desire. In fact I always wanted to be normal like everybody else.

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    Is the possibility of considering ENTj for him far off?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Ganin doesn't seem like an intuitive person.
    He really does seem like an INTj based on my personal encounters with him on the Internet. Our relation seem like a clear example of Quasi-Identity. But I am not arguing that he is an INTj based on that. None of us has any legitimate reason to question his self-typing unless we have met him in real life face to face. And even then we probably would not have reason to doubt his type.
    ...unless we chose to do so
    No. We can of course chose to doubt his INTj-ness, but the choice would still most likely be irrational without reason in that case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Ganin doesn't seem like an intuitive person.
    He really does seem like an INTj based on my personal encounters with him on the Internet. Our relation seem like a clear example of Quasi-Identity. But I am not arguing that he is an INTj based on that. None of us has any legitimate reason to question his self-typing unless we have met him in real life face to face. And even then we probably would not have reason to doubt his type.
    ...unless we chose to do so
    No. We can of course chose to doubt his INTj-ness, but the choice would still most likely be irrational without reason in that case.
    That sounds logical.

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    Yes, on the whole, I think it's unlikely that he's mistyped himself, and especially without having met him or even seen a video of him, there is really little to build a case on. Still, that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the reasons why we might think he's not INTj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    What type does this sound like to you?

    http://socionics.com/articles/unesfj.html

    It wasn't written by Ganin, but it's kind of funny considering. I should say the INTj uncovered is actually quite accurate, tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I should say the INTj uncovered is actually quite accurate, tho.
    It probably is. But I find it slightly unfair that he gave himself the gold medal in the weirdness olympiad.

    He has now also written an INTp Uncovered profile, which is quite accurate. The first three main passages in that profile are right to the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    LIIs are supposed to be interested in discussing new ideas and open to different ideas. However, I suppose an LII might really like his own ideas and therefore react strongly against other people's contrary ideas....That would be Robespierre, I guess.
    Every one of the real life INTjs I know are much more like Robespierre in that respect than "interested in discussing new ideas and open to different ideas". I think it is likely that some of the person people have in mind when they describe INTjs as open-minded in that way are not really INTjs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    One thing this touches on, I think, is a possible misconception about LSIs and Se in general. People generally view what they see as forceful behavior as suggesting Se...and suggesting LSI in particular if it seems dictatorial. However, in my experience, types with Se want to be in charge in a certain way, but they don't care so much whose idea wins. They're actually somewhat oblivious to other people's ideas (and to who's right or wrong), and focused more on accomplishing their own purpose.
    I agree with that. The last two sentences are especially important, I think. LIIs are more dictatorial than LSIs, at least the ones I know in real life, and at least in the sense that the LIIs want to have it "their way or no way".

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    If not for Ganin's site, I wouldn't have discovered Socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    LIIs are supposed to be interested in discussing new ideas and open to different ideas. However, I suppose an LII might really like his own ideas and therefore react strongly against other people's contrary ideas....That would be Robespierre, I guess.
    Every one of the real life INTjs I know are much more like Robespierre in that respect than "interested in discussing new ideas and open to different ideas". I think it is likely that some of the person people have in mind when they describe INTjs as open-minded in that way are not really INTjs.
    I would say that LIIs are open to discussing new ideas until they contradict the LIIs system. If practical implementation of said ideas interferes with the LII's view of how things are working out, he/she requires a full explanation of why the new idea is better than how they planned to do things, unless actually implementing the idea is impractical; if there is any doubt or gray area, the LII is liable to fall back on his/her own plans.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    LIIs are supposed to be interested in discussing new ideas and open to different ideas. However, I suppose an LII might really like his own ideas and therefore react strongly against other people's contrary ideas....That would be Robespierre, I guess.
    Every one of the real life INTjs I know are much more like Robespierre in that respect than "interested in discussing new ideas and open to different ideas". I think it is likely that some of the person people have in mind when they describe INTjs as open-minded in that way are not really INTjs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    One thing this touches on, I think, is a possible misconception about LSIs and Se in general. People generally view what they see as forceful behavior as suggesting Se...and suggesting LSI in particular if it seems dictatorial. However, in my experience, types with Se want to be in charge in a certain way, but they don't care so much whose idea wins. They're actually somewhat oblivious to other people's ideas (and to who's right or wrong), and focused more on accomplishing their own purpose.
    I agree with that. The last two sentences are especially important, I think. LIIs are more dictatorial than LSIs, at least the ones I know in real life, and at least in the sense that the LIIs want to have it "their way or no way".
    Well, the people on this forum who are generally viewed as LII (Tcaud, Labcoat, Hotel, UDP) seem to be more on the "open," "pro-new-idea" side, whereas SG is more on the "dictatorial" side. I think there might be a spectrum....just as with any type, not everyone acts exactly the same way.

    Also, I wasn't implying that LIIs are more dictatorial than LSI; it's just that they want control over different things. I think LSIs have a larger desire to be in charge, but they care less about theoretical disputes. Therefore for someone who is focused on theoretical issues, LIIs could seem more controlling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    He has now also written an INTp Uncovered profile, which is quite accurate. The first three main passages in that profile are right to the point.
    Some parts are really good; at least I know he's talking about people I think of as INTp when I read it, which is the main thing.

    Personally, I'm not really bothered when people express enthusiasm. Are you? I actually like it, as long as they don't waste my time with endless unecessary stuff or question whether I'm being enthusiastic enough. If a performer is onstage, being very enthusiastic and emotional, I like it, but if it goes on too long then there has to be some external structure or it disorients me and makes me feel damaged and unproductive.

    The parts about re-interpreting the rules, debating everything, and attacking what SG sees as "solid foundations" are very, very true. They explain his behavior towards people he regards as INTp on his site.

    But I don't think the parts about INTps being against ambitious theories is true. INTps will see them as a challenge, and will attack them, but is drawn to them because INTps like theories. The attack is how INTps show interest.

    I don't think INTps are overly concerned with whether other people follow insignificant rules either. However, an INTp may value an Fi-related position about how people should act that an INTj might think is insigificant.

    Also, INTps aren't really against people talking about things "in general" or talking about trends, etc. On the contrary, they can intuitively see where someone is coming from, if the source of the idea is intuitive. However, when critiquing something, they rely more on Te than Ni, so they make very fine distinctions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    I agree with that. The last two sentences are especially important, I think. LIIs are more dictatorial than LSIs, at least the ones I know in real life, and at least in the sense that the LIIs want to have it "their way or no way".
    INTjs dictatorial? They are kind of funny when they freak out because they want something done their way, I like to pat them on the shoulder when that happens.

    When that happens with LSIs, though, I really stay away from their shoulders, or arms
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    If not for Ganin's site, I wouldn't have discovered Socionics.
    me neither.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    He has now also written an INTp Uncovered profile, which is quite accurate. The first three main passages in that profile are right to the point.
    I just read it. Not a really nice story. Although it had SOME truth in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    He has now also written an INTp Uncovered profile, which is quite accurate. The first three main passages in that profile are right to the point.
    The highlighted bits would seem to contradict what you usually say about INTps:


    Quote Originally Posted by socionics.com
    INTp uncovered

    "Oh my God! This is awesome! I'm so excited! I can't wait! I feel like jumping and screaming and clapping my hands!" behaviour will guarantee you the front seat before INTp firing squad. It is taboo as INTps cannot tolerate enthusiasm and you will soon be punished for openly showing the excitement. If you like something - you should stay quiet, if you don't like something - you must hate it! No emotional attachments or commitments are permitted either.

    INTps fear rules and adore them, because what's clear - they fear, unclear - they dear! Nevertheless, they stick to the rules and they demand the same from others. The rules that can be interpreted in many ways guarantee freedom. Ironically, INTps learn about their environment through studying of the limitations. If the rule states you can't say "knee" and INTp decides to respect and obey it they could get extremely annoyed with someone who decides to ignore it.

    The rules for INTps often transform into rituals and they have no problems with rituals. Because of this INTps could get comfortable with routine, often mistyping themselves into J types, resulting in many of them thinking of themselves as INTjs. However the most common way is for INTps to type themselves into INTxs, with undecided preference for J or P.

    INTps would not accept anything concrete and solid on principal. The more unshakable it seems the more challenging for INTp it appears. Irrefutable truth to them means death. If a sign "Take your hats off" is normally understood as a request to take headwear off, you may suddenly find yourself arguing with an INTp over what is considered a hat. Thanks God for dictionary! INTps respect it - it is printed and it is public. But beware of broad interpretations. A broad interpretation is INTp's ally; exact meaning is INTp's enema.

    The arithmetic perhaps is the only discipline where INTps cannot use their powers of ambiguity. 2 + 2 = 4 will always remain true, although it is not inconceivable to assume that at some point an INTp was contemplating a different result. On the other hand, the very foundation of arithmetic was built upon few self evident axioms, and it is the self evident part of course that is very much INTp debatable.

    In fact, INTps will debate for the sake of debate. The process becomes more important than the outcome. They often lose the point of a debate when they shift focus to other unrelated subjects in the process. When defeated, INTps can easily do a U turn on something they were arguing just seconds ago. They deserve respect for being able to accept the defeat and disrespect for never being truly committed in their views.

    So what is it that makes them so meticulously scrutinising? Being natively intuitive, INTps are not quite able to swallow big chunks of information. They choke on it. Big theories of everything are spam to them and people who make them are instant opponents. The combination of words like "in general", "on principal", "on the whole", "in most cases", "as a general rule" are not friends to INTps, as they befriend "in particular" in particular. They do not like trends, as trends usually encompass more than one tendency, making the trend more "in general" than "in particular". The notion that there are 16 psychological types is also alien to INTps, because in their heads the 16 types could be further dissected into oblivion, thus making them even more "in particular" than "in general".

    Finally, INTps have this very special relationship with Socionics. They are like plague, eating its very foundation. They are like ever growing tumour that turns once solid and sound principals into a formless jelly. Just like a bunch of angry termites on rampage, they feed on anything structural, bearing clarity and simplicity... by turning it to dust.

    That's all folks, it's a dissection time!
    How is that reconcilable with what you usually say about INTps looking for "truth" and your own stance?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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