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    Default Post-Lacanian Feminism

    Is it thoroughly unsurprising to anyone else that feminists attempting to engage in a dialectical critique of Lacan's supposedly sexist theories fail utterly, both in theory and in practice of promoting their ideals, purely because the medium in which they engage his philosophy is inherently biased towards a male perspective? Trying to disprove and devalue a male-centric philosophy by means of dialectics is like trying to beat a spider at a web spinning contest. I may violate my contract of interest with every human male in our race by revealing this, but the simple truth is, women will have to reinvent the playing field socially, economically, and psychologically, if they are to stand a chance at gaining true "equality." And how is this done? By bitching at men about how unfair things are and making yourselves out to be some contemptable harpy? No. If you want to be in the game, shut your mouth and play.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    haha... lovely. I remember Nietzsche talking about something similar, basically saying that inequality was the most natural social hierarchy, and it was only through complaints about a lack of equality – which was assumed to be a basic tenet of a "good society" – that people could promote petty doctrines for their own malicious purposes.

    As for feminism, I've come to find it as nothing more than a hypocritical, reactionary movement veiled under liberal goals and social concern. I'm happy to expound on this, but not at this moment. Anyway, the thing to consider is: there is no innate difference between strippers and feminists; one is just more honest than the other, and compelled to use a less palatable medium to drive their point home because of societal conditions. Also consider: you are not promoting anything new by reacting to a perceived injustice; at best, you're putting it back into place, or slightly refining it.
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    Ugh, I don't even know where to start on this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Ugh, I don't even know where to start on this.
    word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Ugh, I don't even know where to start on this.
    And if you did, you would only confirm my hypothesis.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    haha... lovely. I remember Nietzsche talking about something similar, basically saying that inequality was the most natural social hierarchy, and it was only through complaints about a lack of equality – which was assumed to be a basic tenet of a "good society" – that people could promote petty doctrines for their own malicious purposes.
    Isn't it obvious that 'inequality' is the most natural social hierarchy, especially considering that things in a hierarchy cannot be equal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Is it thoroughly unsurprising to anyone else that feminists attempting to engage in a dialectical critique of Lacan's supposedly sexist theories fail utterly, both in theory and in practice of promoting their ideals, purely because the medium in which they engage his philosophy is inherently biased towards a male perspective? Trying to disprove and devalue a male-centric philosophy by means of dialectics is like trying to beat a spider at a web spinning contest. I may violate my contract of interest with every human male in our race by revealing this, but the simple truth is, women will have to reinvent the playing field socially, economically, and psychologically, if they are to stand a chance at gaining true "equality." And how is this done? By bitching at men about how unfair things are and making yourselves out to be some contemptable harpy? No. If you want to be in the game, shut your mouth and play.
    Ok, so I don't know shit about Lacan. Really I don't. BA Philosophy fail.

    But what about dialectics is masculine? The bolded seems off too. That kind of us vs them solidarity is weird to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Ok, so I don't know shit about Lacan. Really I don't. BA Philosophy fail.
    No worries: Lacanian psychoanalysis is on its way out.
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    Women should suck my cock and iron my shirts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    Women should suck my cock and iron my shirts.
    Hey, if that's the best they can do, and they get something they deem as worthy in exchange, why shouldn't she? Assuming you're stupid enough to marry a whore, why shouldn't she milk you for all you're worth?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by incognito View Post
    Yeah, I know what you mean. Fuck equality. I want a man who serves me. A guy who works hard all day, earns more pay than me (and hands me his paycheck), comes home and cooks for me, cleans my clothes, brings me breakfast in bed, cowers when I address him, and politely addresses me ALWAYS with, 'Yes, Dear'.
    You don't know how perfect you are.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by incognito View Post
    Yeah, I know what you mean. Fuck equality. I want a man who serves me. A guy who works hard all day, earns more pay than me (and hands me his paycheck), comes home and cooks for me, cleans my clothes, brings me breakfast in bed, cowers when I address him, and politely addresses me ALWAYS with, 'Yes, Dear'.
    Men already work much harder than women. Women should at least pick up some of the slack by sucking my cocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    No worries: Lacanian psychoanalysis is on its way out.
    Undeniable, but it will never be forgotten utterly, especially as long as women's rights philosophy give it's brand of attitudes credence by reacting to them so directly.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    But what about dialectics is masculine? The bolded seems off too. That kind of us vs them solidarity is weird to me.
    Well I'm not saying that there SHOULD be an us vs. them "solidarity," but it is in the collective interests of men, in concrete terms, to remain in control, so by being so overtly open in telling women why they must change their strategy, I am undermining the interests of men as a collective, which exists whether or not we want it to.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Is it thoroughly unsurprising to anyone else that feminists attempting to engage in a dialectical critique of Lacan's supposedly sexist theories fail utterly, both in theory and in practice of promoting their ideals, purely because the medium in which they engage his philosophy is inherently biased towards a male perspective? Trying to disprove and devalue a male-centric philosophy by means of dialectics is like trying to beat a spider at a web spinning contest. I may violate my contract of interest with every human male in our race by revealing this, but the simple truth is, women will have to reinvent the playing field socially, economically, and psychologically, if they are to stand a chance at gaining true "equality." And how is this done? By bitching at men about how unfair things are and making yourselves out to be some contemptable harpy? No. If you want to be in the game, shut your mouth and play.
    What I don't get about feminists is why they can't seem to make up their minds about what they want.

    Do they want stereotypical "woman things" to stop having negative connotations, or do they want it to be more socially acceptable for women to behave and dress like men?

    If it's the former, then they want to continue to be "girlie" without being seen as weak/fair/delicate. If it's the latter, they admit that traditional femininity is not very enabling, and they want to be able to disassociate themselves from it.

    I don't think both goals are compatible with one another.
    Last edited by discojoe; 12-05-2009 at 11:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Do they want stereotypical "woman things" to stop having negative connotations, or do they want it to be more socially acceptable for women to behave and dress like men?

    If it's the former, then they want to continue to be "girlie" without being seen as weak/fair/delicate. If it's the latter, they admit that traditional femininity is not very enabling, and they want to be able to disassociate themselves from it.

    I don't think both goals are compatible with one another.
    And this is why a woman like Ayn Rand is admirable to me, from a feminist standpoint: she takes a clear stand as being committed to engaging in the typical "male" world; most "feminists" want to be treated like perfect dolls, to be preened and decorated but never tested; just taught to repress and strive for material success.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Ugh, I don't even know where to start on this.
    Anywhere you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    Isn't it obvious that 'inequality' is the most natural social hierarchy, especially considering that things in a hierarchy cannot be equal?
    Of course. Which is why attempts by women to abolish the natural hierarchy as a means to (arbitrarily) level out the playing field are foolish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Of course. Which is why attempts by women to abolish the natural hierarchy as a means to (arbitrarily) level out the playing field are foolish.
    You said that "I remember Nietzsche talking about something similar, basically saying that inequality was the most natural social hierarchy"

    You didn't say that hierarchy itself was natural.

    Anyhow, it's my view that just because something is natural doesn't mean that it should be desirable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    You said that "I remember Nietzsche talking about something similar, basically saying that inequality was the most natural social hierarchy"

    You didn't say that hierarchy itself was natural.
    Yeah, I didn't make the implication specifically clear in the initial post, but it is in his writing:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Antichrist
    The -order of castes-, the highest, the dominating law, is merely the ratification of an -order of nature-, of a natural law of the first rank, over which no arbitrary fiat, no "modern idea," can exert any influence.
    Anyhow, it's my view that just because something is natural doesn't mean that it should be desirable.
    It's not as simple as natural things being desirable. "Natural" in this sense refers more to consistent patterns of human interaction manifesting throughout evolution, which have become preferable by virtue of their effectiveness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    And this is why a woman like Ayn Rand is admirable to me, from a feminist standpoint: she takes a clear stand as being committed to engaging in the typical "male" world; most "feminists" want to be treated like perfect dolls, to be preened and decorated but never tested; just taught to repress and strive for material success.
    I'm getting this notion that Rand is LSI-ESI....

    You know, Angelina Jolie is your perfect dual-type identical, and she is a vociferous advocate for Rand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Is it thoroughly unsurprising to anyone else that feminists attempting to engage in a dialectical critique of Lacan's supposedly sexist theories fail utterly, both in theory and in practice of promoting their ideals, purely because the medium in which they engage his philosophy is inherently biased towards a male perspective? Trying to disprove and devalue a male-centric philosophy by means of dialectics is like trying to beat a spider at a web spinning contest. I may violate my contract of interest with every human male in our race by revealing this, but the simple truth is, women will have to reinvent the playing field socially, economically, and psychologically, if they are to stand a chance at gaining true "equality." And how is this done? By bitching at men about how unfair things are and making yourselves out to be some contemptable harpy? No. If you want to be in the game, shut your mouth and play.
    Complicated....

    I hate feminists because they don't want equality anymore they want dominance, me personally equality is fine but you have to earn it (for men or women), if a woman can get the job done better than a man they are superior at the job, if a man can, he is superior.... I don't care if you feel like men have an advantage because our society is male dominant and isn't set up for females.... thats life, everything isn't always fair like that, when your an outsider you have to work all that harder to get what you want, and it means alot more then, fuck all that happy go lucky "everyone should be born in an exactly equal world with equal privileges and the government should be responsible for redistributing everything to ensure everything is perfectly equal and no faction is given favor/advantage over another....".... sure - good luck with that, let me know how it goes.

    Anyways the solution is simple; its not women > men, and its not men > women, its men = women.... holy fuck! thats too simple ZOMG!!!!!!!!!!!! In practice its whatever gets the job done. Inspection of life reveals that men = women is what gets the job done, confirming the facts fit the theory - other theories lead to animosity between humans and therefore doesn't get the job done.

    I guess though I agree, but on different terms.... too many people want to pull the strings behind the curtain of reality to make life easier for group X, when its not all about that, its about dealing with the cards you've been dealt. A la, playing the game.

    And I know what people are going to say to that.... Oh but thats racist/sexist, Martin Luther King was a great civil rights leader for him spotting injustice.....

    Sure but MLK didn't run around feeling sorry for himself and wanting to reinvent society to be partial to a particular race, he dealt with the situation by inspiring millions to change, he did something about the situation and his focus was on equality, it wasn't on dominance and self-pity and excuses and complaining about how things are sooo bad for you and how because of that you are going to try to take dominance.

    Women will like complain about how they have to all dress up and look nice, but men don't and say its not fair or something.... but the person telling you this is dressed up neurotically worrying about their sex appeal.... if they really wanted to make a statement they'd just do what they wanted to do. Instead they go overboard and like shave their heads, when they really don't even like that and all they wanted in the first place is to be able to wake up without putting makeup on and feel justified but instead of just doing it they either go overboard to make a statement or hipocritically complain.

    /rant extend

    ad infinitum
    Last edited by male; 12-06-2009 at 05:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz
    Women will like complain about how they have to all dress up and look nice, but men don't and say its not fair or something.... but the person telling you this is dressed up neurotically worrying about their sex appeal.... if they really wanted to make a statement they'd just do what they wanted to do. Instead they go overboard and like shave their heads, when they really don't even like that and all they wanted in the first place is to be able to wake up without putting makeup on and feel justified but instead of just doing it they either go overboard to make a statement or hipocritically complain.
    lol exactly. Hence my previous mentioning of the antagonistic duality that exists between strippers and feminists.
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    I don't think most women want that, they simply want to be treated equally and not be raped and shit, just cause they are physically weaker doesn't mean they are somehow innately inferior. You know? Just cause there is differences doesn't make one sex generally better than the other.

    So you are whining about whining and the loop is continued. =/

    I guess what I'm against in any 'movement' is how institutionalized it becomes. And when it does then that's where you seem to get the whining hypocrites. The most effective activism comes when the discriminated party proves their own strength and virtue that they can make it in the 'white straight man world' they rant about. In fact when you can beat the odds like that and not be a statistic, it is so charming. I <3 underdogs who come out on top.

    The sort of typical college liberal feminism is simply not effective at all. I'm left-wing liberal, but I believe this shit has to be proven in reality not in college or 'theories.' Most men dislike college I think for this reason. Society changes for the better, gradually, when people get over their own arrogance and just let things be.

    And well I think Margret Cho said it best. "If you're not a feminist, fuck you. Where do you think you came from?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I don't think most women want that, they simply want to be treated equally and not be raped and shit, just cause they are physically weaker doesn't mean they are somehow innately inferior. You know? Just cause there is differences doesn't make one sex generally better than the other.
    Wanting the autonomy to avoid being "raped and shit" is hardly something that warrants criticism; I would say that pertains more to 'basic human rights' and barks up the libertarian tree.

    And well I think Margret Cho said it best. "If you're not a feminist, fuck you. Where do you think you came from?"
    Why doesn't she post a picture of her vagina and promise free breeding for all? Maybe that will move her up in the ranks.
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    not responding to anybody in particular here, more just the thread topic. when i think about women, men, marriage, work, equality, a theme leaps out at me....that of responsibility.

    men get trained on how to wield power. very well in my opinion. they get trained on how to mix it up with other men, and how leadership works. they learn that when you are the leader, you have to take it on the chin a lot and not show how you feel. they learn that when you are the leader, there's a lot that you have to bear alone. that you don't complain. these are part of the responsibilities of leadership and power.

    women don't get this kind of training, typically. women are trained differently...i'm not sure how i would describe women's training and it's a whole other issue. but, since women don't get the male power and leadership training, they don't get as much opportunity to practice the wielding of power and the responsibilities that go along with it. some women figure it out...but as a rule, the training is lacking, so the mindset is not fully developed, and the behaviors don't always follow.

    yet at the same time, many women do acquire power through education and work. in western society money=power. women's needs are further supported through government policies related to child support, alimony, and the like. this means that at this historical moment in time, women have a lot of power, but may not be taking responsibility the way men are trained to do. so, in essence, some men see that women get all the benefits without any of the costs.

    consequently, i think when men have a beef with feminism it revolves around this issue: that women want power and leadership roles, but are either unwilling or unable to accept the responsibilities that go along with that role. moreover, a lot of men feel gyped by government policies that favor the support of women over men.

    so...one would think, we should just train women the way we train men, right? if women are going to be working, and engaging in leadership roles then we should train them the way we train men. but there's a huge problem with doing this. one that i've lived through: you can't be everything to everybody. you can't have it all.

    which leads to the next point: somebody has got to be the bitch. somebody has to nurture the children, clean the house, cook the dinner, mend the clothes, balance the checkbook, maintain the relationships, organize the social activities, attend parent teacher conferences, and coordinate children's activities. a lot of men will help with this...but they don't want to be the primary person responsible for all this.

    if we started training women to be like men, who would be the bitch? not men. which leads us to the female side of this debate. that somehow all that "women's work" is less valuable then men's work. that's it's simple and easy, and just so much petty detail. so much so, that we don't pay people very much at all to do it. so, that work is thankless and largely uncompensated.

    so then we got into these so-called "equalized" marriages, where both partners work and both partners do "women's work". what's wrong with this scenario in practical application is that there's way too much work and everybody's exhausted and feels unappreciated. because all you do is work. yet, we now live in a society where both people have to work to make it, in many cases. they've figured out a way to keep us all really really busy. they've figured out how to play us against each other. they've figured out a way to weaken human relationships and the family. i'm not saying it's a conspiracy, but these facts stand out clearly.

    some people are starting to figure out that less is more. and we don't need all that "stuff" they're selling us and maybe it's better if we try to live on one person's income, like the old days.

    so i guess what i'm trying to say is that we should try to recognize these things clearly and for what they are. we should value "women's work." since women's work is what makes love possible, and what ties people together in strong supportive harmony.

    and, as a reminder, men who are abusing their power through various abuses of their partners would do well to pay attention to male training: you don't abuse your woman. if you do, she'll find a way to subvert you. oppressed groups always find a way to get out from under. we need to get back to the basic covenant between men and women. and realize that all this debate occurs within a context of a mercenary, capitalistic society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by incognito View Post
    I've not followed Nietzsche's philosophy, so, I really can't comment on this part of your post. For all I know, it can be taken out of context. However, I agree people should be accepted for their natural abilities, and should be compensated equally and fairly, regardless of gender.

    Reality, however, is another matter. Whom better to demonstrate this than a transgendered scientist:

    Gender bias

    The part you've missed in my post is 'deeply ingrained attitudes'. Until such time as this issue is appropriately addressed and resolved, you'll continue to hear the "lament" of feminists.
    Interesting article. And yes, I acknowledge the existence of memes that directly influence assessments of equality and such. That doesn't negate the foolishness of feminists' complaints: they make themselves into a meme by reacting to them; better to criticize the underlying foundations of assumptions in order to debunk, than simply bitch at the consequences of society's evolution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Is it thoroughly unsurprising to anyone else that feminists attempting to engage in a dialectical critique of Lacan's supposedly sexist theories fail utterly, both in theory and in practice of promoting their ideals, purely because the medium in which they engage his philosophy is inherently biased towards a male perspective? Trying to disprove and devalue a male-centric philosophy by means of dialectics is like trying to beat a spider at a web spinning contest. I may violate my contract of interest with every human male in our race by revealing this, but the simple truth is, women will have to reinvent the playing field socially, economically, and psychologically, if they are to stand a chance at gaining true "equality." And how is this done? By bitching at men about how unfair things are and making yourselves out to be some contemptable harpy? No. If you want to be in the game, shut your mouth and play.
    It's like people claiming the racism card, this sort of stuff is mostly in the history and it's pretty much just used by people who have an inherent chip on their shoulder and don't want to try as much as the rest of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    It's like people claiming the racism card, this sort of stuff is mostly in the history and it's pretty much just used by people who have an inherent chip on their shoulder and don't want to try as much as the rest of us.
    Sometimes, yeah; I'm not going to be ignorant and pretend that racism or sexism are dead (anyone who believes this hasn't been to the deep South), but a lot of women get on my nerves when they chalk every little thing up to sexism this, equality that, you're so horrible, blah blah blah. It's just a big fat target they get to throw their darts at when they're itching to unload about something.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Sometimes, yeah; I'm not going to be ignorant and pretend that racism or sexism are dead (anyone who believes this hasn't been to the deep South), but a lot of women get on my nerves when they chalk every little thing up to sexism this, equality that, you're so horrible, blah blah blah. It's just a big fat target they get to throw their darts at when they're itching to unload about something.
    Yeah, you're right. I could be wrong in saying this, but I think that at least in a lot of cases, there still will be some people who don't like women or blacks or something just for that reason that they are women or blacks or w/e, but at the same time there are maybe equivalent or approaching equivalent number of people who don't like fat people or people with ginger hair, so it's not as big a problem to just one group of people, so I really do question how much of a target it makes someone in comparison to many people who aren't recognised as being discriminated against, but probably still some cases where it's an issue, but often it's more of a projection than simply a victim issue on the "projectile" part, heh, hmmmm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Yeah, you're right. I could be wrong in saying this, but I think that at least in a lot of cases, there still will be some people who don't like women or blacks or something just for that reason that they are women or blacks or w/e, but at the same time there are maybe equivalent or approaching equivalent number of people who don't like fat people or people with ginger hair, so it's not as big a problem to just one group of people, so I really do question how much of a target it makes someone in comparison to many people who aren't recognised as being discriminated against, but probably still some cases where it's an issue, but often it's more of a projection than simply a victim issue on the "projectile" part, heh, hmmmm.
    Well, the thing is, those phobias have always been "light;" it has never been a big deal to say that you dislike people with freckles, for example. But saying you dislike black people just causes a massive welling up in anyone's mind of all the history of racism and awful things that have been done to black people. If people had been exterminated for having freckles, those kinds of phobias would be taken more seriously, too, because they would be seen as dangerous. So, even while I agree that a lot of the actual "bigotry" that goes on might just be genuine dislike for certain salient traits of a group, as opposed to true historically or culturally rooted bigotry, the victims of the latter will always (by degrees) make for a more sensitive matter of discussion, no matter what the context, because of their inalienable history of suffering prejudice.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Misogyny, up close and personal | Melissa McEwan | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

    friend sent me this this morning. skimmed this a bit, decided it was relevant to discussion, figured i'd add it.
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    The Lacanian notion promoted here is actually quite ironic, given how thoroughly it was verified. When thinking about something like the 'future anterior' sense (i.e. the subject always "will have been"), in regard to peoples' reactions creating a 'floating crystallization' of sorts that refers back to its generative pattern upon expression, well... I can say that I find the complaints of feminists toward males to be comically revealing, in terms of what is unintentionally expressed in the pursuit of expecting The Big Other to understand, despite the veil of correcting the misunderstandings of another object. sigh.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Basically it comes down to: put up or shut up. Women just love to exaggerate the unreasonable expectations of them. Have they looked at what is expected of men lately?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Basically it comes down to: put up or shut up. Women just love to exaggerate the unreasonable expectations of them. Have they looked at what is expected of men lately?
    What is expected of men lately?
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    ITT: NFs going insane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    What is expected of men lately?
    Provider, protector, must be reliable, attractive, muscular, charismatic, outgoing, go-getter, self-made, dress up nice, be aggressive but not mean, assertive but not blunt, do what daddy says, don't let anyone down, have to do it all on your own, don't let anyone too close, don't be weak, don't let anyone know how you really feel about things, just be objective, do the right thing, be the hero, get the bread, ignore your feelings and get on with it because ultimately its up to you whether we're flush or we're fucked so get it together before it all falls apart.

    How's that for starters?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    What is expected of men lately?
    apparently you can cheat on your wife with 12 women and she'll stay with you. i would love to see woods' wife clean him dry and move back to sweden, take the kids, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    Is this more about Lacan or about the dialectical playing field?


    *pulls on Team Isha colours*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    Is this more about Lacan or about the dialectical playing field?
    Well, it's mostly the case with dialectics, because essentially they try to gain the support of the people they make out to be enemies. Not only that, but to choose a sociological position opposed to ruling assumptions and try to beat it over the head with such a sense of urgency is kind of like running into a china shop and claiming that claiming that ghosts are about to overturn all of the merchandise.

    But it's also a hilariously flawed prospect to give attention to Lacan from the get-go; not only is he obscure and hardly given weight in academic psychological or philosophical fields, but he is a product of his times, and to say he is anti-feminist is like saying Freud was anti-pharmaceutical; these things simply didn't get attention during their times, and though they are hardly excused more than anyone else, how and why would you expect anything more of them?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    Can you elaborate, with examples perhaps? I'm still not sure I understand why dialectics are inherently masculine, even after your earlier explanation, and I'm probably not as informed on post-Lacanian feminism as you but I'm interested.
    Well, it's not even that dialectics is inherently masculine, although that argument could be made as well. It's simply highly disadvantageous for women to address the issue of presumed male superiority from a dialectic standpoint. You confront an enemy when either a) your enemy is weaker than you are, or b) when timing can be used to render him such. Neither of these are the case from the perspective of feminists, so confronting the issue of male-dominant psychology head-on is pointless; there are no objective standards or criteria left to address now that women have equal legal rights and are not discriminated on paper any more, so without a fulcrum that points to either a lack of objectivity or a practical failing of the operating standard, it simply becomes "women vs. men."

    Personally, I believe that women would be more effective in obtaining social equality if they realized that, on some level, the expectations placed on them mirror those of men, and if they just dealt with/ignored them and put their noses to the grindstone and started proving everyone wrong, they would get what they want. It's happening, and there's no denying it; women occupy more powerful positions in businesses and government every day. We we could easily have had a female president. But you know why it didn't happen? Because she was too outspoken, because she was too focused on issues of sex; she assumed she would be discriminated against, so she spent too much time flailing her arms in the fog, and *tada* she lost.



    I agree whole-heartedly on this one (Darwin being accused of racism is also an example that gets on my nerves).
    Yeah, some people are just fucking stupid and can't properly contextualize what they are reading. They take everything personally without looking for rational explanation.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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