I believe that the INTj health issue is to do with N not S.
The reason why INTj's worry about their health is due to their intuition. INTj's see remote possibilities.
The same principle can be applied to other types.
Introverted Sensing Si Hidden Agenda of LIIs/INTjs
I believe that the INTj health issue is to do with N not S.
The reason why INTj's worry about their health is due to their intuition. INTj's see remote possibilities.
The same principle can be applied to other types.
Or perhaps a result of strong N/weak S. It's the inability to see what is really there (weak S), and in turn, filling in the blanks, often disproportionately (strong N). Of course, this also works the other way, ignoring the possibility that anything could be wrong.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Of course it is about N and not S. Having N as a creative function doesn't give them the confidence to steam roll over S like dominant N types can. But N is their dominant way of taking in info, but since it pales in comparison to their stronger judging function which can steam roll over F, an INTj will be haunted by all the various aspects of sensing unless they can keep that part of their life in line.
That's how the hidden agenda works
LII Hidden Agenda Si - A Stunning Realization
Upon figuring out I am an INTj rather than an INTp I reread everything concerning the two types and tripped over this: INTj or INTp?
Particularly: "The last comparison - "Hidden agenda". This is what people hide from other people, because it is very sensitive area of one's psyche..." "... For INTjs their introverted sensing is their nightmare.
I have always enjoyed working out, but only when I'm by myself. It's as if I think that if others see me lifting weights they will assume I'm trying to be a physical person when I'm not (Which I assume would signal to them that my self confidence is low when it is really isn't, lowering my value in their minds: it is really quite a strategic yet ridiculous thought process).
I didn't make the connection till now but this is seems to be the real reason I can't stand the gym. I acknowledge that fitness is important but I don't want other people to know that I think fitness is important (Even strangers). The good news is that I'm slowly building a home gym (perfect pushup/pullup and dumbbells fuck yeah!) so I can still reap the benefits of health without feeling self-conscious.
Any LII's or others have good representation's of their hidden agendas?
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
You're paranoid. Everyone is selfish, they don't care about you.
My issue with Si is that I ignore instances of hunger.
In many frivolous areas of my life I don't know what I want. I remember when I was a kid I got strawberry ice cream. And I was like, "I should've gotten vanilla instead." My uncle said sternly, "How are you going to make decisions in life if you can't even decide what ice cream you want?"
People always ask me "How do you feel about x?"
That's such a hard question, I don't know how I feel and maybe its because I don't care how I feel, I care how I think. That's a big weakness probably.
Peoples' presence can bug me very easily. Listening to meaningless things from other guys gets annoying and I won't say anything to stop them.
Last edited by intjguy; 12-04-2009 at 04:40 AM.
In no way should one act contrary to the great future you have before you.
Yeah, I kind of agree with how they put hidden agenda.
ILIs often idealize people in order to think they have a good relationship, so they can subconsciously fulfill their HA easier without doing the real work. I relate to this substantially.
I hadn't put it into words as well as you did, but I'm exactly the same way. The only difference being that the home gym thing is more of an idle thought at this point, not something I'm actively doing.Originally Posted by Crispy
I used to be involved in a martial arts class, but it was very small and my fellow classmates were mostly trusted friends. Still, that's a little different than working out at a gym -- you're learning a skill, not just trying to improve your physical condition. I could use my Ti to study the theory behind the moves.
On another note, I would probably be fine at a gym if there was an ESE or similar type there to "hold my hand" as it were, and shore up my unconfident Si and create a relaxed atmosphere of trust.
Quaero Veritas.
This is similar to how I am. I don't like people to know I am trying to get in shape or am working out. I want complete privacy and don't want people to think I am 'showing off' or anything like that.
Despite this, I have had a tendency in the past to overdue it(so long as no one is watching) and, for example, do hundreds of pull-ups or push-ups for no specific reason. Not so much anymore though.
I don't care if other people know that I think fitness is important. What I am self-conscious about is strangers scrutinizing my body and judging my level of fitness (or lack thereof). I put off going to the gym for awhile for precisely this reason. Eventually, I mustered up the courage and pushed through my self-consciousness. I realized that the vast majority of people weren't looking at me at all, they were all preoccupied with themselves.
I easily recognize hunger signals but I'll put off eating for awhile if I'm doing something really interesting at the moment.
I can be really indecisive about food choices too. I'm bad when I go to restaurants and order off a menu. Several things sound good to me. Like you, I'll finally decide on something and then wished I ordered something else.
I also dislike being asked how I feel about something. Often times I feel several different seemingly contradictory things about something and it would just be too complex to explain it all. Or I really don't know how I *feel* because I see the thing as being more a logical thing. Ask me how I *think* about something instead. And sometimes, I just want to keep my feelings to myself and don't want to be pressured to share them.
I think this dislike of being asked how you feel is from weakmore than it is from weak
. Some of what you said reminded me of the description of the
The LII is acutely aware of social conventions, such as saying "please" and "thank you", and expends much effort to conform to these rules to maintain the status of a "polite" person. But he tends to overdo the conventions themselves, as opposed to the relationships they are supposed to establish, and so ends up stepping on other people's toes (violating some less easily definable convention which he would never really want to conform to anyways). He prefers an easy-going environment where such conventions don't exist in the first place. When in a heated argument, an LII can alienate others by his natural tendency to hold and defend strong opinions (Ti).
If asked to express a unique, personal sentiment, such as a favorite color or football team, the LII may find difficulty choosing if there is no "obvious" answer. He often feels like he has no real personal, subjective feelings at all, and usually has to make a conscious decision where other types could easily supply an instinctive reaction.
The LII also is very sensitive about how other people see him, feeling depressed if he has affections that are not returned. For this reason, he tends to avoid expressing signals that show interest in certain people (as opposed to signals about his general mood and demeanor, which he feels to be much more natural), but of course it just aggravates his loneliness, instead of relieving it.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
Hmm, I wonder if this has something to do with male/female differences? I have the same self-consciousness issues, but the whole not-wanting-to-send-signals-of-low-confidence-in-my-physicality is another layer on top of that. I'm just speculating on very little evidence here, but there is definitely a pressure on men to be physically strong and capable, in order to attract women. For a male LII, going to the gym to work out feels like standing up in front of the school and telling everyone that you are a pathetic weakling who needs to work out more.
I wonder if this could also have to do with Vulnerable Se?
Quaero Veritas.
I agree, and your hypothesis is probable.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
I'm surprised with you guys about the gym issue, I think you guys need a proper regimen and if you want help with that I can gladly oblige (if you have an objective Step 1 - Step 10 concept, you might ignore your surroundings). And once you see results you won't give a sh!t what other people think.
I can express that the only thing that holds back an LII is caring about what other people think. What other people think is inferior in the first place.
Last edited by intjguy; 12-08-2009 at 09:25 PM.
In no way should one act contrary to the great future you have before you.
I go to the gym all the time. I don't care about the big strong hulking apes there. They do their grunting thing over there and I'll be running along side this slender babe over here. I hate going along with friends because I don't like to chat when I'm benching the bar or whatever. The feeling after 20 minutes on a treadmill is worth it though.
I'm not very fast or strong, but I look damn good! Don't worry so much about your appearance while inside the gym. Your appearance outside the gym is far more important.
The saddest ESFj
...
You're describing Se(F): "image anxiety". Yeah it makes sense as a reason that you don't want people to know that you're exercising your health function. (Si(T)) You typically use the outer circuit functions to mask the internal circuit functions, the subjective experience of which we call "irrelevance" or "unimportance". "My health is not as important as keeping up my image as a person who doesn't care about image". Paradoxical? Yes. LII-like? Absolutely.
The 6th function in INTjs
From what I have read so far, the mobilizing function is what activates the creative function. As I get it, the mobilizing function is something that is incomplete without the creative function adding to it, thereby "completing" its desire with the creative functions agency. That would be the mobilization of the creativity.
How does this work for the Si mobilization of creative Ne? Would it be how personal idiocentric experiences can shape the manner in which we use our intuition to diverge from present limitations into the imagination of new possibilities? Give some examples if this is true.
A different question is this: How is the mobilizing function different from the hidden agenda?
Surely the hidden agenda is something sporadic. The hidden agenda could be a different form of the mobilizing function. Perhaps it is a form of the mobilizing function that makes an attempt to complete itself without aid of the creative function?
Give some examples of the LII "hidden agenda" - which seems to be "To be healthy" on wikiscion. This seems a bit subtle. How on earth would this manifest itself in day to day life?
I wish to be healthy ... but how is it different from any other wish I might have? I wish to be wealthy too, and to find true love, and so on. Everybody needs health. How is that special for an LII?
Explain this 6th function si to ne.
This isn't a bad way of looking at it I suppose. Ne/Si, Se/Ni, Fe/Ti, Te/Fi are all pairs of IEs that complement each other, can't have one without the other.
This sort of thing is far too difficult for me to express in one post. This post may work for explaining Ne in action, but how Si fit into it isn't explicitly stated:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...15&postcount=6
It'll have to do for now, lol.
They're the same thing, just different terminology.
I wouldn't put too much stock in anything socionics.com/wikisocion has to say. They're prone to stereotyping and not actually getting at the heart of what the functions are. Plus those descriptions of the HAs really aren't that accurate compared to how the types actually manifest, nor are they particularly good representations of what the IEs even are.
The hidden agenda/mobilizing function is really just one function/style of information that the type heavily desires. If you understand Si, then you can understand Si HA, and the same with any other IE.
I think that that single post would imply that the mobilizing function Si would take the form of pacing around or being restless or gesturing during the activation of the creative Ne function. Something you see must trigger the new thought, thus new things must be seen, thus Si should force you to pace around...
I pace a lot. That is why I mention that.
I don't think it is Si on its own, but it comes together with Fe. I think Si gives LIIs a tendency to sort of dig themselves into the familiar, desire constancy, and indeed become overly obsessed with it. This may happen if LII is feeling unsure of the Fe-dynamics that are going on out there. This, however, inhibits Ne from from being open to what else is there as Si serves as an anchor. I heard LIIs describe having heavy episodes of nostalgia where for prolonged periods of time they would just indulge in recalling past and report that these memories were reassuring and comforting to them somehow. So they kind of get lost in themselves and in what has been, rather than paying attention to the present and thinking about what could be.
ESE/SEI (and to some degree IEI/EII) however is tracking Fe-dymanics all the time and is able to thus give LII reassurance in this respect by providing them with necessary Fe-information so that the LII doesn't stall before the unfamiliar and barricade himself or herself in this manner. I'm not sure what kind of information SEIs/ESEs provide with respect to Si, but I'm guessing they help to actually create this sort familiar environment where Ne would be free to take off without any anxiety and fears.
As far as what Si has to do with health, beats me, never saw what the connection is. I know SEIs and ESEs will periodically try to guess how I'm feeling based on what I look like and my facial expressions. They kind of take this snapshot of your physical state and see if something is out of place. If something does seem out of place, then they'll ask you if you're feeling ok, inquire about your comfort levels. So in this way they probably help LIIs keep track of their physical health and well-being. Not to say that other types don't do this, but the information is processed in different manner (SEIs/ESEs doing the above actually kind of annoy me, possibly because I don't value Si).
This sort of thing was far too difficult for me to explain in one post, but thanks to that one time in IRC with you, I might have a chance in hell hereThis isn't a bad way of looking at it I suppose. Ne/Si, Se/Ni, Fe/Ti, Te/Fi are all pairs of IEs that complement each other, can't have one without the other.
This sort of thing is far too difficult for me to express in one post.
Remember that one time you asked me to envision "largeness"?
You did it, Ashton was able to do it, a lot of people were able to do it, and all I could think about was fat people at first. You talked about the concept of "fat", unanchored to any physical thing, and asked me to envision it... I was having a lot of difficulties still, I kept trying to make a physical approximation of it, and you were probably doing something else entirely...
I'm almost certain you were taking anconcept and coming through to the other side and getting
I've witnessed this happen with an EII, talking about some "good old days" that likely never existed. To comparatively damn the future in such a way just doesn't feel right to me, and I'm not always certain how to fix this
I've been around Alpha SFs when this is going on, and it feels like I'm getting babied when I'm on the receiving end of it. I can maybe be alright with it for a while, but it's suffocating to me when in excess...
Sounds rightthis is how it plays out for me sometimes:
αSF - "aren't you tired/hungry/hot/cold/etc.?"
me - "how the hell should I know?"
αSF - "can I (something intended to 'correct' the 'problem')?"
me -
αSF -
me -
Anyways, the EII I know's always looking for things like comfort and coziness and the like. All over the place! He suggested to me that I should wear a fuzzy shirt once, and I couldn't understand the rationale behind that at the time. I was also linked to a totally awesome looking picture of what he says his dream house would be like:
Almost all I could think of was how much of a pain in the butt it would be to dust the place, as well as expenses, taxes, etc.
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
So as I gather it, the mobilizing function serves not only as an anchor, but as a ball and chain, or a tether. It limits the outward reach of Ne, as a constraint. This constraint is a need for comfort...
I think I see how it works now. Ne is all about new possibilities, it is stimulated by a real anxiety about the Se PoLR. However, the PoLR cannot directly stimulate the Creative Function. The PoLR can only stimulate its corollary, Si.
So, the ineptitude that an LII has with issues of power, territory, status will create a drive towards a comfort. That comfort seeking is creates a safety zone for the imagination, which answers the unease about the PoLR with wild Ne conceptual spirals.
The comfort zone, in turn, becomes an impediment, as the LII might not be able to pull out of the comfort zone to realize his imagination in practical terms. I see.
Now, concurrent to the 6th Function is the 5th function, Fe. The weakened Fe (found in the SuperId) takes the form of an interest in social affirmation and attachment to trusted friends. This too comes from the PoLR. This is because the PoLR is a "superego-complex," it is two functions fused together. Thus the PoLR is always in operation with the role function, which is Fi.
Healthy Fi is the ability to resolve complex inner emotional states, transforming what could be self pity and illusion into abstract virtues, such as resolve, or a sense of self control. However, Fi in the superego means that it is something that is difficult for them to do - so it is a role deferred to another person. The weak Fe of the SuperId is the plea for another person to take on the role function.
Thus the SuperEgo-complex of Fi/Se appears as a confused mass of immediate needs and subconscious fears, whereby the ineptitude at achieving status triggers a need for physical comfort, and at the same time the need for resolution of the LII's inner most emotions induces a need for affirmation from others.
Now I see how this 5th function suggests the action of the Driving Interest, or first function. The insecurity of the LII at creating healthy Fi leads to an appeal to others through a weak Fe, but the insecurity does not end. The picking up of the role can not be guaranteed, thus the weak Fe triggers the LII's driving passion - the creation of tools of understanding. Through clear understanding, the LII attempts to emulate the Fi/Se complex independently of the dual, while still seeking it.
I think I get it. Awesome. This is very helpful.
My writing on this is too much like a syllogism! I need to say that again, but without such crisp internal structure.
I will rewrite that, eventually.
I do not want to imply that LIIs are insecure. It is the simplest way to connect everything to the PoLR.
Keep it!it's a good writing style to have, and it's very fitting for a heavy
valuer...
I'm way on the other end of the spectrum, I think
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
That's exactly it - pictures like this make me wanna cringe, ugh >.<Anyways, the EII I know's always looking for things like comfort and coziness and the like. All over the place! He suggested to me that I should wear a fuzzy shirt once, and I couldn't understand the rationale behind that at the time. I was also linked to a totally awesome looking picture of what he says his dream house would be like:
Almost all I could think of was how much of a pain in the butt it would be to dust the place, as well as expenses, taxes, etc.
I remember visiting a LSE-ESE couple and their place looked almost like that. I didn't feel well there at all :/
I personally do not interpret this in terms of PoLR-Se or role-Fi functions as unvalued function seem to play very minor roles. I think these problems arise from simple ineptitude of lower-order functions, mobilizing and dual-seeking. They can serve same roles as PoLR and role but they are not able to process information as well as leading or creative functions can. This makes judgements made in these areas unreliable. ESE/SEI notes and deals with Si information easily, but for LII/ILE this information exists in much lower resolution. The DS function is by far the worst in this respect. It is called "dual-seeking" but seeking duals isn't the only thing that it affects. It also tends to be a point of high uncertainty and anxiety. Often people have a sort of love-hate relationship with it, idealizing it at some times and rejecting it at other times.
I cant explain this to my INFj, mom either. She doesnt get why "to be healthy" makes her special from other people. Sure, everyone wants to be healthy, if you're not healthy you cant even begin to enjoy life. Even I know that lol. But I think you misunderstand the concept of an "agenda". Start with the concept of a conscious agenda(2nd) function. If you have
LII Hidden Agenda
What does LII Hidden Agenda "to be healthy" really mean? I think that this definition can be misleading. Some real life examples, experiences, do you have any? Thank you.
KEEP IT LIGHT AND KEEP IT MOVING
The interesting thing regarding duality is I think the dual's HA is less obvious at least it doesn't bother me in the least.
I don't see the LIIs HA very easily.
Although I do think they make a big fuss over little Si related matters.
For example: one LII friend has inconsistent eating habits (under eating all day, overeating at night, very late night pizza binges/or ribs after forgetting to eat all day).
But they insist on eating a small side salad with a lot of their meals despite not liking salad. Why make a big fuss over including a small salad at meals? A small iceberg lettuce salad will not help that much if you ignore your body all day.
Another LII friend is quite fixated on hand washing often, as she thinks keeps her in good health. While that is true, overdoing it will strip your hands of good bacteria and over-using hand sanitizer is not great either as it allows bad bacteria to take over. It is akin to over doing it with antibitoics.
Just as ESEs need LIIs to help them form creative ideas and their thoughts logically my LII friends often ask me about health/food/exercise related things because they overdo Si. If an LII lived with an ESE, the ESE would naturally prepare balanced snacks, meals and encourage moderate eating and snacking. The LII would not take offense to this most likely just as the ESE would not take offense to the LII gently making Ti and Ne suggestions.
It means that with Si as a mobilizing function you'll have a hard time understanding your bodily needs, internal sensing, that is about being in contact with your inner states, is in the way of your main Ti, you rather focus on your internal stream of thoughts that on what your body demands. For this, you need Si the most, because chances are that in pursuing your "idea(l)s" you'll forget to eat/ shower/ get out, ending up like a hobo in your own house.
For me it works pretty much like that eheh
it means that you dont wanna die
This sounds like more of a conscious IE effect, being anxious/neurotic about that kind of stuff, no?
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Give me mobilization or give me death!
I have very strange eating habits. I eat always the same things and I'm afraid to experience new food. Also, I eat very little, not in order to be skinny, but just because I hate excesses.
When I'm ill, I'd need someone who takes care of me, but since I don't want to bother people around me, I rarely talk about my issues with others, often ending up with neglecting them.
Although I don't care much about appearance in others, I'm ashamed to dress inappropriately. For example I don't feel at ease if I'm the only one who's not shaved (at the swimming pool it's a very unpleasant sensation), or the only one who's wearing an informal dress to a formal event.
Besides this, I love having showers, feeling clean and neat and I hate when someone tells me that I smell or that there's something wrong with my body.
Are this statements related to
KEEP IT LIGHT AND KEEP IT MOVING
Yes, true. LIIs seem to deal much better with routine and things of the sort, so the "messiness" is probably more a EII thing.
Mobilizing function can be overindulged too, so perhaps you'd just need the duality of ESE to pamper you better, or you'd be spiraling always in the same routines?
no, that's just normal lolI have very strange eating habits. I eat always the same things and I'm afraid to experience new food. Also, I eat very little, not in order to be skinny, but just because I hate excesses.
When I'm ill, I'd need someone who takes care of me, but since I don't want to bother people around me, I rarely talk about my issues with others, often ending up with neglecting them.
Although I don't care much about appearance in others, I'm ashamed to dress inappropriately. For example I don't feel at ease if I'm the only one who's not shaved (at the swimming pool it's a very unpleasant sensation), or the only one who's wearing an informal dress to a formal event.
Besides this, I love having showers, feeling clean and neat and I hate when someone tells me that I smell or that there's something wrong with my body.
Are this statements related to
@hybris theory: I think that ESE's
@sorrows: What do you think about my statements in the other post? Have you seen those traits in some LIIs?
KEEP IT LIGHT AND KEEP IT MOVING
From @sorrows post it is clear that ESE also provides everyday. Ignoring can be problematic at times.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Yes, you're doing it right lol. There's a quality of containment to LII that makes them hesitant to seek outside what they value, it's the same containment that allows them to keep everything in the proper place, so that their need for "being taken of" doesn't look as necessary, but they nevertheless have a hard time with it, so that the natural ESE's cares are the most appreciated, because they're just so natural that the LII won't even have to demand them, making it possible for both to express themselves in all their qualities and flaws
Don't tell me you don't know the difference between the 'healthiness' of a mcdonalds hamburger and fresh vegetables. Do you really need ESE for that ?@hybris theory: I think that ESE's
Come on, of course I do. I just mean that LII wants ESE to care about it.
KEEP IT LIGHT AND KEEP IT MOVING
Yeah a lot of eating issues can be Si HA. Most the LIIs I know are either very very thin or very very overweight. There hasn't been much of an in between that I have noticed.I have very strange eating habits. I eat always the same things and I'm afraid to experience new food. Also, I eat very little, not in order to be skinny, but just because I hate excesses.
When I'm ill, I'd need someone who takes care of me, but since I don't want to bother people around me, I rarely talk about my issues with others, often ending up with neglecting them.
Although I don't care much about appearance in others, I'm ashamed to dress inappropriately. For example I don't feel at ease if I'm the only one who's not shaved (at the swimming pool it's a very unpleasant sensation), or the only one who's wearing an informal dress to a formal event.
Besides this, I love having showers, feeling clean and neat and I hate when someone tells me that I smell or that there's something wrong with my body.
Are this statements related to
I think that LIIs do want someone to care for them but don't want to ask for help. The ESE naturally sees the LII being tired, hungry, or sick and will make a gentle suggestion for rest and food or bring the LII a snack to address the issue.
As appearance (clothing and being unshaven), that sounds more like an Fe issue as you mean the inappropriateness or appropriateness of dress is more Fe.
Yeah, I agree. In my friendships with LIIs I will see them and read their "state" of mind or health right away. I can't relax or talk with them if I sense they haven't eaten all day. I will then suggest a nice place we can eat dinner before we start our work or homework. After some eating, and chatting we can get down to work and everyone will feel much better.@hybris theory: I think that ESE's
@sorrows: What do you think about my statements in the other post? Have you seen those traits in some LIIs?
For my very good friend who is an LII I will come out and say: " you haven't taken your thyroid medicine lately-have you?". She will agree she lost it or hasn't taken it. I will make a suggestion that we stop by the pharmacy together to get her more. She won't go on her own as she finds a low thyroid problem trivial and not worth her time. The LIIs I know don't feel judged or pushed by my meals, or suggestions for them. They will seek out my advice on how to dress for different events or what types of diets work etc. Duality is not a judgmental state. Its one of comfort and trust (generally) where each person's weakness is balanced by others strength.
Whereas many other types find the ESEs suggestions to be pushy the LII finds it relaxing - "oh this person can order and bring me lunch while I focus on my work, ideas, etc..". The ESE is in touch with others (fe+si) they will select a meal they know the LII will enjoy and that is good for them.
The LII will feel understood that they don't even have to ask the ESE for Si related advice or help. The ESE just does it naturally and feels appreciated by the LII.
The LII in turn helps the ESE plan for the future and get to the bottom of their theories and ideas.
The ESE is a physical caretaker and in turn the LII is a logical caretaker. Each one is dominant in the relationship in different aspects.
Last edited by Iwantpeace; 08-03-2017 at 12:45 AM.
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