Or is that not what Se PoLR is about at all?
If it is though, how do you get past that?
Or is that not what Se PoLR is about at all?
If it is though, how do you get past that?
Yes, it does hold the EII back. Read, "How to be Antiracist" by Ibram Kendi to get a better idea of the vigilance required in confronting Se in everyday life. All Deltas should read this. Secondly, tell yourself that you need to get shit done so you can be in a better position to help others. Appeal to your ethics.
Se is often too much understood as willpower. But there is more to it than that. To understand Se, it is best to view it in its pathological state and then work back to healthier forms. Se is to be understood then as the ability to transgress other peoples boundaries (not necessarily in an morally reject-able way) and make them do things (not necessarily against their will). This is what the EII is incapable of. When EIIs see the need to guide or alter people's behavior, they will try to do this by means of coaching, trying to make other people understand what is the right thing to do. They consider the possible options in behavior and consequences in terms of Ne and will try to communicate this to the subject at hand. Which, of course, doesn't work with all types.
It is next to impossible to make an EII (or LII for that matter) understand that some people need a proverbial kick in the butt to make them jump into action. That is what Se-PoLR is all about.
Let me share some examples:
This one I have shared before: I was once working as a cook at a university. Friday is cleaning day (because business is slow then) and I was cleaning drawers. At some stage an LII student was at my counter, and I said to him "One moment please, I'll be right with you." He then replied: "No worries, I can wait"
Another example: In a previous life I was a manager in a software development dept. Before I was promoted I had an ILI colleague who was on the same level as I was, and who was on sick leave for some months already. Basically he was sick because of frustrations about his job. At some stage he was ordered back to work by the doctors, and passively-aggressively he returned to his job. Very quickly it become obvious he was stuck in his mood, which he, at large took out on out superior, who couldn't get him to move. He was then put under my responsibility and I became the target of his passive-aggressive sulking and pouting pretty fast. Pretty soon I became angry and fed up, till I decided to do something about it. I got up, closed the door to our room, sat down and said to him: "You've been taking out your frustrations on our boss, but I warn, you're not going to do that with me!" My tone was implying that he would be in for a lot of trouble if he didn't stop. And while I said that, I slammed my flat hand hard on my desk, which startled him, he jumped up a little bit and was clearly intimidated. To my very surprise, this completely made his mood change permanently, he got back to work again and started having pleasure in doing his job again. He just needed a kick in the butt to get out of the vicious circles he was stuck in. Now why am I telling this? Because it's a basic difference between an IEE and an EII: Both will try the motivational route first on other people, but if it doesn't work, a (more mature) IEE will be capable of temporarily using Se, and an EII not, EIIs will try to keep the peace (=Si).
Last but not least: when it comes to self-motivation, it is not a lack of Se that is holding EIIs back from action, it is a lack of Te, which results in EIIs (and LIIs) wasting efforts on Si:
Basically, when you are using your Mobilizing, you violate the principles related to your PoLR, which is obvious to onlookers. You work out the math of how this works with EIIs.
All types with poor dimensionality Se get held back from it. So IEIs/EIIs/LIIs alike. I forgot the other one with very low Se.
They don't try hard enough in gym class, aren't physical or 'Chad' enough. Life a lot of time is ignoring your inner personal worlds and just kinda taking things by the throat and physically manhandling them. Not posting about your personal feelings online like an emo retard but just DOING things. The way a LSE/ESE/SLE would. I forgot the fourth one what the fuck.
It doesn't matter that I'm gay. The trash still needs to be taken out. FUCK YOU TE TRASH. I HATE YOU.
It doesn't mean they are weak per se- but yeah this is kind of a 'weak ness.'
Honestly as much of an excuse as it sounds like, to get in touch with my "will power" or ability to take "action" (Se as I understand it) without over over over thinking, or to just be more in my physical body, I either have to use alcohol or climb trees. I know it sounds weird but it's a PoLR and I imagine everybody has weird coping techniques to deal with the PoLR, either that or I'm just weird, and I doubt it's just me.
Anyway, climbing trees is obvious, I have to physically use my body to accomplish the task, the effort, force, and all that are unavoidable when climbing and it's a fun way for me to engage in my PoLR where I can stop engaging in on my own terms or experiment with it and control how much I am exposed to using it on my own terms, so my comfort levels with it are under my control. Much different when I am pressured with a confrontational situation or a must act now moment. In those I am either fucked or over reactive, which is the way of the PoLR and the wide pendulum swings it does.
With alcohol, well any inhibitions surrounding the PoLR are weaker, so I can dare to be more risky and experiment with the dormant parts of myself, which is the most exciting thing to do when drunk anyway. It's like, you want to experience something new, well be someone you usually are not. SE! I don't even consciously think about it
Last edited by Lord Pixel; 12-31-2019 at 07:43 AM.
Fuck you Te Trash? Fuck you Se Trash!
Te at least tells you how do do things.
Se makes do things though... So I guess that's fair.
But without Te you wouldn't even know how to do something. Se without Te is complete crap. Complete. Crap.
Fair enough though that, Te without Se is useless. And I think that sums up my experience as an EII type.
Last edited by Lord Pixel; 12-31-2019 at 08:37 AM.
And yes, of course, what @consentingadult said about EII vs. IEE is right. EII is much less capable of using willpower to force other people to do things. If they do attempt to use willpower, they most often will fail, because that's not their nature.
They are not really very capable of being pushy to get what they want, and Ne creatives (incl. EII, of course) often have to wait or respond to the external flow of the universe to get anywhere in life. Or, rather than directly pushing to get what they want, simply "nudging" the universe in very small ways, "tacking" against the wind instead of trying to go against the flow. Se is essentially the force that allows a person to truly "go against" the external flow of the universe and the course of events. The unconscious singularity of vision (Ni) is what allows Se to exist. Plurality of vision (Ne) is what EIIs and LIIs create, and that is contrary to applying force -- which requires singular determination.
This is probably a terrible post. I feel like there's a lot more that could be said, but I can't quite manage to say it -- at least not at the moment. Might update later.
If you observe Se types, you might notice that they tend to get things done by focusing on one specific goal, and applying exactly the actions necessary to achieve that goal. Ne egos, on the other hand, often tend to do things in strange or unpredictable ways that somehow have a way of "quirking" a situation or context. If you put an Se ego into a situation, tell them to use a system or apply themselves in a certain way, they'll do exactly that and no more. If you put an Ne ego into a situation, they will often be the ones to accidentally find a way of "breaking" a situation because they unconsciously acted in a way that was not predicted for the context they were placed in. Se egos tend to find that kind of behavior extremely disturbing.
Here's an article from an MBTI perspective that describes the mode FiNe types would probably find most healthy, and an excerpt:
Sailboats are a pretty good analogy. How do you go anywhere when you have no force of your own, much less going where you want? Change your sail so that the force drives you in a different direction from the one it's flowing in on its own. The stronger the force against you, the smaller the shifts you'll have to make. Or the stronger sail and boat you'll need to have. It's impossible to truly "go against" a strong enough force. But you can maybe do what they want in a slightly "off" way. Modern society pathologizes passive aggression because it values direct confrontation and often has the ability to counteract it. The modern world is rather Se in many areas, esp. America. There's nothing wrong with being passive aggressive if you're truly dealing with an oppressive force.Ne can’t be used really. Maybe the least of any function, it cannot be used or willed as an aux. type thing. I think the hero’s journey for INFP (and INTP too) is to be as “zen” and “loose” and “open” and “guileless” as possible. There are no capacities, tools, positive traits of character as such. “Be empty” “Be open” “Be here now” No goals. I think the gift of this aux. is allowing the universe to act without interfering with it. The degree to which one does not interfere or interject personal concerns such as how one is going to pay the bills, land a husband, etc. is a successful use of Ne aux. In a sense, one does as little as possible and nothing is left undone. “It’ll happen”. Somehow. In some way that you can’t see yet. Trust, faith, hope, optimism in the benevolence of the universe and that everything is unfolding as it should. No mistakes. That type of shit. Obviously, this has implications for new-age ideology, especially as this combines with Fi or feeling in general, which is open and passive to the higher unfolding itself.
Last edited by Aramas; 01-06-2020 at 11:47 PM.
Others here have made good points, so I'll just add what can work for me or applies to me personally.
I do sometimes struggle with feeling like I'm productive, either enough or at all. I can definitely get in funks and I've noticed my energy to get things done often comes in waves. Allowing myself guilt-free down time has become very important.
When I find myself unable to proceed in a task or effort that I know I need to do, here's what helps:
- Verbalize any questions about the task that I have
- Write out major steps to achieve the goal, then break those steps down into smaller, distinct task-steps. Order them in rough timeline order, though usually some of the steps get switched around once I'm really in it.
- Visualize the first steps.
For example, I hate getting out of bed in the morning, especially in winter. Thanks to my husband's Si, I've got a nearly perfect bedding / sleep situation going on. Even when I desperately have to pee, I can barely contemplate peeling back the cozy covers. Additionally, the tasks of the day can seem overwhelming and very not appealing. So I gather my brain cells and force them to visualize the first 4 or so steps of getting ready for the day. 1) pull back the covers, 2) stumble to my dresser and pull out the exact items I'll wear (this part sometimes falters because possible combos can get out of hand), 3) clothing on, I walk out of the bedroom, 4) say hi to dog, 5) flip on the tea kettle as I pass it by... And that's about as far as I need to visualize because then I can start it and after the start the rest is easier.
Very simple example, and yet the basic principle helps me a lot.
That said, as I write this I'm procrastinating on a work project so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I had an EII ex. He was pretty woke in terms of his polr I think, in that he worked out a lot and had a physical training certificate, did lifeguarding, etc. He also took flights to see me on a whim, and would throw shit around alone at home and forget things the next day after getting drunk. This is more stereotypical Se chad than I am.
I don’t think Se polr prevents xIIs from doing stuff, or being strong, unless they’re really unwoke. I think it’s more like they are not good at going with the flow. “Good” Se-Ni in theory is contingent upon good timing. This doesn’t mean that they can never have good, timely Se, but it’s only when they REALLY ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. Which, in the context of their own lives isn’t a major problem typically, but I don’t want any part of it.
Great post @Aramas .
One thing: I wouldn’t say I find Ne “disturbing”. It does makes me wonder “why would you do that?” though in the case of ILEs specifically as they’re otherwise decidedly “logical”, and the reason is usually that they don’t have enough information to do things more effectively. LIIs are logical too but not nearly as random IMO.
It is very much so in bursts for me. If I have to do a task that takes a week. I cannot be diligent about it and work steadily thoughout the day. I have to literally pick one very very small thing, and bang it out right then and there or it will not get done, and get away from the work. And do that in chunks like an idiot who can't sit down and do his work for more than an hour.
I mean I have to write the most miniscule tasks down on a sticky note, and purposefully on a sticky note because I can only fit 1 task on it if I write big enough. It feels extreme to be that way. Does not feel like how normal "adults" do things.
I'm much better at having a task that starts and ends once I'm done with it. Like doing deliveries. You make a drop off and it's done, out of sight, out of mind, on to the next. Not some report that you have to spend days in and days out writing before your dead line or something. I can't think of any other reason for this besides 1D Te and 1D Se combined. Like a sniper, carefully aim then shoot, because you only got enough energy for one shot. Instead of the machine guns that can shoot all day long, which is how 4D Se looks like to me. Where do you get all those bullets.
@Aramas, damn good post. Makes alot of sense. And yse when ppl use facts and reality to pop my imagination it can feel very limiting and is often what makes life feel boiring and wonderless. But that MBTI part, I use MBTI too but that quote is nonsense and how you end up broke, alone and sad.
Being fully "open" to the universe and all that woo-woo, with no goals? I'm not like that at all, I have goals, HUGE HUGE HUGE retardedly unrealistic and idealistic goals and dreams, but no will to act on them. Waiting and waiting and "letting" life happen is how you end up with nothing, I am at the end of that right now, because of that "one day" mentality, the whole reason why I even made this thread, because after waiting,for so long you realize "it" will not happen for you. That whole thing is my fear as an EII, it is way too comfortable and easy to think "it'll happen" that's Se PoLR in a nutshell. I do nothing life will happen. That's how you end up on the streets.
Sometimes I think when I say "I just want things to happen naturally" I really am secretly saying I want things to proceed or progress without any will imposed on it, passively, and I'm slowly realizing the only control you have over getting what you want in life is by imposing your will, whether it be in evil ways, good ways, or neutral ways is up to you and reveals your character and you'll reap the consequences. I used to say fuck Se, but fuck Se PoLR. That shit'll kill you.
Last edited by Lord Pixel; 01-09-2020 at 06:58 AM.
How would you respond to your plans being changed or disrupted @Lord Pixel ? Would you say that you can easily and smoothly adapt? I mean, you guys are IJ types too. Of course if there’s nothing you can do about it then you just have to.
I’m speaking from experience with my ex lol as he did not like it and complained. He would not budge at times when “pushed”. And several other EIIs I’ve known have been kind of controlling and pushy, backed up with “principles”. I really don’t think that xII are incapable of pushing people or taking control of their own lives. That would be like saying Fi polrs are incapable of eliciting attachment from people or something.
I’ll read the rest of your post soon as it looks good.
Not if their brain stem is intact.
The perceivers in my quadra can be a bit like that - doing sudden changes and being ok with them. But they're also a lot more likely to be understanding of my need for time to process than those outside my quadra. Not entirely sure of the process behind that. IEEs will flutter around, doing funny things to their environment while they wait or talking me through the options, and SLIs sit down and relax / do something quietly useful.
Anyway, that was a tangent.
I think once XIIs set their minds on something, in can be hard to change them. So milquetoast is not a good descriptor, not as an overall term.
Last edited by Lord Pixel; 01-10-2020 at 08:41 AM.
Well yea you end up resulting to manipulating because you can't yell to get what you want cuz what r u gonna do if someone yells louder, you can't fight because what if someone fights harder, that's how I experience my Se PoLR. This sort of like "the world has this thing in droves compared to me, so I cant use it to compete." So psychological coaxing manipulation ensues since that's what I got.Yeah, some EII descriptions portray them as quite manipulative, in fact, in terms of trying to control others. It's just less in-your-face and up front, unless they get flustered and frustrated.
Se PoLR certainly does for me. I don't want to get into conflict, and I'm often stuck in the world of my head, thinking about action but it takes some time to get the momentum up. Situations where things get heated and involving confrontation, I'm not quite at home.
Sometimes I get stuck in the mode of "I want to do this" "this would be beneficial" but how to get to steps B and C take more time. It's not laziness, it's just a slower way of operating. I am a very goal oriented person overall and if something doesn't work, just try it another way. Forceful personalities are also draining when I have one way of going about doing something but then someone else throws something else at me.
When I am given enough time, I get quite a bit done, but with other people pulling me in different directions, it's back to square one. I am very productive in quieter types of environments. Where I can be more independent, and I can ask for help when I need it, but not being given too much assistance to the point where I'm not doing things for myself.
Exactly how serious, the American Express Company had gotten to know very rapidly, and increasingly strident and panic-stricken demands on of it's debt-collection department were only silenced by the unexpected demolition of the entire planet by Vogons, to make way for a new hyperspace bypass.
I was way too campy in my last post (as usual)
I think thinking/action being in harmony without overthinking is clearly the best. You don't just carelessly do without thinking - that's just as retarded- but I mean just pondering all the time seems like it would drive anybody crazy. That's why professional writers have abrasive and worldly Te editors to help them make their books more digestible or something?
Also I find it extremely hard to be productive with anything I need to do but don't want to do or are interested in doing, ie. work, cleaning, taxes. But if I am actually interested in the thing I can be pretty self motivated and obsessively work on something forgetting to eat often times, my guess is 4D Fi 1D Te. And I have an LSE friend whose a workaholic so kinda really is the opposite. Only time I do get work done that I don't want to do but need to do is when Se PoLR kicks into overdrive and saves me from the deadline that's right around the corner, panic productivity, it's the only time I can truly count on my Se, at least I know when things hit the fan I will get the work done, but "You always do everything last minute! " which is something I heard alot as a child. I would love it if I had an easier time doing my work in a timely manner without stressing myself out to get it done at the very last minute, I would also love it if I could do the things I needed to do without feeling like doing it, I am always secretly jealous of ppl like that, and that's like 99 percent for adults so, work ethic envy? I mean I got fired from a good paying job simply because it bored me to death and I couldn't be like the other adults who bit the bullet and get my work done.
Normal functioning holds back XIIs - reservations are and will be forever present. They are relativistic in perception and usually attempt to plan for all possible contingencies (what-ifs) rather than immediately limit their rationalization to the facts at hand. EIIs are further hampered by a tendency to keep a lot of personal things unresolved perhaps erroneously thinking that the perceived problems will eventually go away by themselves. This reticence seems to diminish with experience and confidence when they experience some measure of success because without it, they can easily go into delay-forever mode.....
Hey, at least EII doesn't suffer from the same version of Se polr as LII, who goes drinking because the boss goes drinking. It seems different from that to me, and i even like some of the replies on this thread.
But if an LII is pressured into this kind of thing directly against their will, I don't think the Se PoLR would manifest that way. It may play a role if they're suddenly asked, and they feel pressured to answer immediately and give a positive response, but in matters where LIIs have time to think and get a hold on their feelings, I've only ever seen -- in myself and others -- a strong aversion to being in situations that make them uncomfortable. I really do think that the typical LII response to being pressured into going drinking would be to either to quit the job almost immediately, or -- if he feels he can't -- at the least fabricate excuses to get out of this kind of obligation.
Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 01-17-2020 at 03:59 AM.
As a goatherd learns his trade by goat, so a writer learns his trade by wrote.
I have never seen an LII suck up to a boss, and my sister is LII and I know eleven others pretty well. The most I've seen in that direction is that they might get concerned if they thought they were going to be let go because of lack of performance, but their reaction is not to suck up, but either to try harder at the task and to start emotionally withdrawing at the same time, or to threaten back if they have a contract. They might vent about the unfairness of the situation to their intimates, but as for sucking up, no.
I think @FreelancePoliceman pretty much nailed the LII motivations. At least, what I have observed agrees with his statements.
@FreelancePoliceman LIIs don't seem to seek social validation in the need-to-be-liked sense; they tend to look for confirmation that what they are doing is perceived as valuable or correct so I agree with @Adam Strange about them doubling efforts when shown that they haven't done a good job - they hate being wrong almost as much as they hate not having autonomy. I've seen many of them alienating themselves because they think that their perceptions and opinions may not be accepted; however, I doubt that any of them ever thought that people were driving them away - they were simply remaining autonomous and away from potential criticism. More than a few seem to think that they're inches away from being labelled totally incompetent, and that they should be better than they really are........
Well isn't Fi role same as sucking up people's rear ends aka establishing relations for logical purposes? Sure it is pain in your rear end but hey you gotta lick when gotta lick.
Fi role in action
Last edited by Heretic 007; 01-17-2020 at 02:49 PM.
Measuring you right now
Winning is for losers
Lol, i didn't realize my comment about LIIs would cause such distress, well I do notice LII paying more attention to hierarchy than i do, for example. I don't mean LII are complete suck-ups, it's more about pressure...If you would like to know what i was thinking of i had in mind the stereotypical idea of 'salaryman' in Japan and such. The reason for that is that i've worked with LII in the past and they do have a tendency to do what i described.
Personally, I notice that I have a need for more information, and such, which certainly holds me back from some forms of action, all the while being painfully aware of the passing of time which adds stress to the mix, which makes taking action even more difficult. I think this is a Se polr in me, imo.
I remember this quite absurd LII who never got into stage of finishing his degree because he was too busy at manufacturing babies with his wife. Still somehow he managed to keep his job at vacancies that demanded an actual degree (MSc). I don't know how he did it but every time it was time to say goodbye (if I understood correctly) he just grabbed another position by assistance of secretaries and other related people.
In a way this is ethically very absurd situation considering LII's sense of justice because there are unemployed people regarding that job with actual degrees and qualifications. Everything just tells me that he should had bent over and do something about his qualifications but he is not alone (it was actually quite absurd to look at people who have done their master's degrees doing some form of unemployed assistant jobs [yes, we have those sort of jobs] to people who are not qualified).
Last edited by Heretic 007; 01-19-2020 at 02:27 PM.
Measuring you right now
Winning is for losers
Having said that, there are some valuable characteristics of people who get degrees. Perseverance is one, some level of intelligence is another, and the ability to exist in and successfully navigate a bureaucracy is a third.
Degrees is an attempt or a way to solve the problem that esp. in bigger companies people has to hire people for work but people who hire people (staff manager) can't jugde for themselves if people are qualified for a job they apply for.
In this light a degree is like outsourced conformation that somebody is qualified to do a job, at least from a theoretical pov.
But there are other aspects, like motivation or social skills that thats up to the person who person who hires people to judge.
Last edited by WinnieW; 01-19-2020 at 03:02 PM.
BTW I'm just as merciless towards myself.
Well, I guess this illustrates LII's ability to be coherent in Fe matters.
Last edited by Heretic 007; 01-19-2020 at 04:20 PM.
Measuring you right now
Winning is for losers