Thank you; you are sweet.
I'll keep living. I'm not in danger of giving up my life or anything similar. I have a lot of good in my life, a lot to be thankful for. Relatively speaking, I live in physical and emotional and relational and spiritual luxury. However, this is earth and I am a human who lives among other humans, and so hurt (along with its potential growth, yes) is inevitable.
Thinking about how I need forgiveness myself, as you mention, does help.
You remind me of that quote by a popular author (I forget who exactly). When asked if he enjoyed writing so many successful books he replied that it was nice to have written them. Forgiveness afterward is nice and healing. But the process, especially before, can be so hard. And it's something I'm still not the best at.
Thank you for your encouragement.
This quote from C.S. Lewis seems to cyclically haunt me throughout my life:
"To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket- safe, dark, motionless, airless--it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable."
Sometimes just asking people to behave differently doesn't help or change anything. Sometimes it does, yeah, but often people are set in their ways and determined to keep going.
In that situation you mentioned, Jesus was defending someone/something he felt was important and had been violated.
I would and do like it when people defend me, when they help and protect me. Those who do earn a special spot in my heart. I do that myself with other people. If I feel someone is being mistreated or wronged I can seem like a different person sometimes in my vehemence and force.
Defending myself can (and perhaps should?) be a different story. One of the things Jesus says to me is, "Here's another old saying that deserves a second look: 'Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.' Is that going to get us anywhere? Here's what I propose: 'Don't hit back at all.' If someone strikes you, stand there and take it. If someone drags you into court and sues for the shirt off your back, giftwrap your best coat and make a present of it. And if someone takes unfair advantage of you, use the occasion to practice the servant life. No more tit-for-tat stuff. Live generously.
"You're familiar with the old written law, 'Love your friend,' and its unwritten companion, 'Hate your enemy.' I'm challenging that. I'm telling you to love your enemies. Let them bring out the best in you, not the worst. When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer, for then you are working out of your true selves, your God-created selves. This is what God does. He gives his best—the sun to warm and the rain to nourish—to everyone, regardless: the good and bad, the nice and nasty. If all you do is love the lovable, do you expect a bonus? Anybody can do that. If you simply say hello to those who greet you, do you expect a medal? Any run-of-the-mill sinner does that.
"In a word, what I'm saying is, Grow up. You're kingdom subjects. Now live like it. Live out your God-created identity. Live generously and graciously toward others, the way God lives toward you."
Then again, that whole passage of his sermon there is partially an illustration of how God's standards are impossible for us to ever really fully achieve, so... yeah. I still see in other places in the Bible, though, where I'm supposed to forgive and let go and not try to exact revenge or hold bitterness.
I have been called in a certain direction. So I know what I must do, what is best for me to do. But it's just hard sometimes, and sometimes I twist and turn against it. ("The problem with living sacrifices is they like to crawl off the altar.") The dilemma, the war, is in my feelings; my head knows, though. And so does my heart, actually. It just likes to rebel and make trouble for me.
By people. A general hurt, generated by human fallibility. I think most if not all people have felt that kind of pain. Humans tend to harm each other. If you don't want my empathy, though, you don't have to take it.
...
On a slightly related note -
Normally I try to stay even-keeled in my emotions. I avoid extreme or outward displays of highs and lows.
However, I think I can come across as negative at times especially to certain people, more so than positive anyway, because it's when I'm negative that I feel a need for help changing my state. If I'm happy, I don't require a change, and since I'm usually good at maintaining my internal state I don't feel a need to pull in an outside potentially disruptive influence.
The reality is, though, that while I'm usually even in my emotions I'm also generally on the positive side of things.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
This is eerie.
Just last night, I was speaking to someone dear to me about how it's just hard; that I sometimes wish I was less sensitive, more apathetic about what people say, do, choose... Indeed to stop caring at all. And then I think, "Then who would I be?"
It will be all right, Minde. For your sake and my own as well.
Ceci n'est pas une eii.
Exactly, it's all about caring, and the price of doing so. I'm so grateful for when people do care, though. The world would be awful without it.
It will be alright, yes. So long as I don't let my pain influence me to make irrevocably harmful choices.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
it seems sometimes that delta NFs get into weird funky states. It's almost like, for lack of a more flattering term, an emotional "period", part of an emotional cycle. I don't relate it specifically to the physical period that women experience.
Sometimes it just happens. And sometimes it's even negative and I feel pushed away. It tends to fade away after a few days, so it seems. Sometimes I'm not even doing anything but it just happens.
I wonder actually if sometimes I get more of the unpleasantness because they feel comfortable being emotionally expressive with me.
IDK.
No offense, but, you remind me of an few IEIs I know who do this same thing, but a bit more annoying. More like "my life is over", "I'm dying", "life is so hard", etc.
This is totally an example of what not to say in this situation, by the way, to other delta STs. But, I have faith that Minde won't disown me.
Out of curiosity, did you get that point I was making? It feels as if you didn't, but I want to ask to know for sure.
First, I don't know why I'd be offended by being compared to an INFp. There is nothing inherently bad about any type.
Second, I don't know what "this same thing" is. Could you elaborate please? You appear to be perceiving something rather different than what I intended to express.
Third, on principle, just because you have confidence I won't end the friendship over it doesn't make it acceptable or good to do.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
As usual, I doubt I was commenting on things exactly as you were.
I feel it's kind of a trap question for me to say whether or not I get the point you were making. The reality is you don't think I did, so let's leave it at that.
The way you were lamenting about the pain caused to you from other people.First, I don't know why I'd be offended by being compared to an INFp. There is nothing inherently bad about any type.
Second, I don't know what "this same thing" is. Could you elaborate please? You appear to be perceiving something rather different than what I intended to express.
Third, on principle, just because you have confidence I won't end the friendship over it doesn't make it acceptable or good to do.
What I am speaking of, and what I think Minde is speaking of, has nothing to do with Life or even our own lives, as your quotes suggest.
At the very least, what I am speaking of is how my own psychological make-up, the personality I was born with, can sometimes be damaging or hurtful to myself. Hence, why the issue of identity also comes into play.
Ceci n'est pas une eii.
It would be a great boon towards understanding if there were specific examples supplied.
Removed at User Request
She's absolutely not Fe ego.
It's just the same sort of...... airing of grievances that I've seen before. I've seen all the NFs do it
Minde, I can definitely see you going outside in the rain one day with mud paint on your face hunting woodland creatures with your bare hands... and that would be OK. You don't have to feel remorse about it as long as you eat them later. Anger is not "bad," it can lead to productive activities. Maybe you just need to find ways to vent anger without hurting other people in the process, like playing a competitive sport. Don't let other people get to you emotionally.
Removed at User Request
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
It would make me happy if you could demonstrate what you understand me to be saying. The reality is that I'm not sure, which is why I ask.
There was a purpose behind the lament beyond mere creation/expression of emotion.
It was partial lament, partially a reaching out for understanding and comfort, but also a more general concept that I thought others here could relate to.
You're right, it's not about me being in a depression or thinking my life stinks. Like I said before, my life is actually relatively good and I'm thankful for it. But there are aspects of life that cause me pain. And I react to that pain. What I said was a part of my reaction.
As I said above, it's a general concept. Yes, there is a particular situation which propelled this particular instance of expression of my thoughts, but this is something that recurs in my life and something that I think a lot of people deal with - if not the more narrow question of caring vs. not-caring, then at least the more widespread (if not universal) situation/feeling of hurt which comes from human contact.
More people can relate to the general concept(s) than they could to my specific circumstances, so I feel my temporary details aren't that important here.
I think anybody can and does have existential questions and thoughts, at least at some point in their lives. They just tend to go about it in different ways sometimes.
It's more than just airing of grievances. Note that I did not give out any particulars. But, yes, it is about feelings. If that puts you off then just ignore this conversation.
No! No killing of innocent animals! If anything, I would release my rage on those who do such terrible things - abusers of innocents...
Rain and mud paint is ok, though. I've done that before.
So, you suggest I don't let people get to me emotionally. Does this mean you fall in the camp of "not caring"? Or is there some happy balance you have found? Please, wise one, enlighten me.
I appreciate your empathy. And, yes, what Ryu said is a little less than sensitive, but I wasn't really expecting sensitivity or gentleness from him so I'm ok.
Atm, I am unsure if I fully understand your understanding of what I was saying. It might be the language barrier. Do you want to clarify or elaborate further?
...
I feel I should add that last night it was pointed out to me that I deserve some or even all of my current pain, that it balances things because I myself have caused pain - in this particular situation at least. "Turn about is fair play," or the like. The situation in which I find myself is only justice. So perhaps I should not be complaining or seeking comfort.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
Originally Posted by Minde
OK thanks. Here's what I took out of it: 1. Somethings wrong 2. Ascertain what it is 3. Fix it.
It is equivalent of a simple instinctive conversation:
You: I'm sad
Me: What's up honey?
I guess i'm not sure about relating, because I think for instance, someone is hurt because their spouse is cheating on them or someone is hurt because they didn't get invited out to some social event (just for examples) is different .
So it's different grades of being hurt, I can't relate to what you are saying because it might not be fair on the people who you think are causing you pain, for all I know you have unrealistic/unfair expectations of them, so I need details in order to work out what's going on.
Of course you don't have to supply any specifics, as for all I know i'm talking in double dutch to to you. Infact for all I know supplying specifics would exacerbate communication issues, I suppose I don't really get what you mean, but it seems plenty are talking like they do, so it's all good, well, mostly.
Thing is there is nothing to fix, it is as it is. There is no point to go into detail as this is a trend and not an isolated event. This time its one situation the next time it will be different but the main theme will still be the same. If you deal with other people you are likely to be hurt.
@ Minde:
Being oversensitive in childhood made me more or less numb for quite a while. And I think it is a very bad idea, it took me quite some time to be able to be myself again, which is being quite sensitive I guess. Either way I don't think you deserve any of the hurt, unless your actions were with the intention to hurt someone. People do make mistakes, people do make wrong choices and sometimes people do make correct choices which causes other people pain but in the long run are beneficial. Neither of those things mean that you should feel the pain due to the same reasons unless, as I said before, your intentions were bad, in which case I guess feeling some of the hurt is beneficial and just.
Either way, each time I get hurt by people or I hurt people I know that people are also the source of joy and meaning in my life and there is nothing to even closely substitute it. So hope that it will pass and in the future there will be less pain and more joy in your life. Momentarily pain almost always makes us cherish more the people that surrounds us, the ones that cause more joy than pain, the ones that treat us with care. Also there is always a sort of liberation once the sadness or hurt passes, you just need to make sure it does and you wont fixate on your past hurts, which can be hard.
Im not even sure all of it made sense to you, and I dont want to be preachy, I just wanted to find those positive things about being sensitive to other peoples feelings .
Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.
ENFp - Fi 7w6 sp/sx
The Ineffable IEI
The Einstein ENTp
johari nohari
http://www.mypersonality.info/ssmall/
Don't feel bad, sweetie pie. This Fi reflection of empathy won't help me either. You should complain and seek comfort if it is what you need to feel better.
I don't believe in eye for an eye and things like turn about as being fair; I do believe in just simply making amends by way of apology or by genuine show of concern. If you want to make a situation better, I think you know how to improve it. I think, also that you will know how to move forward from it without draining yourself and putting so much guilt or creating a situation where you carry so much emotion around.
I do get that whatever you're facing has made it's impression on your emotions.
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 09-02-2010 at 03:32 PM.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
"..."
Removed at User Request
eh?
Much has happened since I posted here last. I have been sick about three weeks now and it turns out I have an anxiety disorder - boo! Also this means I'll be deferring uni for the next few months *cry*
But on the positive side, I'll have more time to make art and spend time on here and generally relax now, which is kind-of a huge relief
Today I have been working on my blog. I'm starting to take it in a new direction so it may be a little different from what it was a couple of posts back....I hope you like it, let me know what you think
What has everyone been up to?
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
She's someone else's dual.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
You're predictably selfish and self-centered, but that's not a surprise to me because your sense of right/wrong and good/bad is ambiguous to yourself.
Look how shallow your statement is; it says "I'm taking your dual because she satisfies me." She serves your hedonistic needs so you thing you have the conscious "right" to be with her?
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 09-12-2010 at 04:08 AM.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I appreciate your attitude of wanting to fix things. It's rather dual-like, actually, which warms my DS function.
And, yes, I get what you're saying. For you to help out my specific situation you would indeed probably do better if you had details.
Yes.
You're not being preachy at all. I think you understand me well. And I'm really glad you said what you did. It helps me.
Thanks, Maritsa. I don't believe in an eye for an eye, either, though neither do I believe in a lack of justice. And I have been seeking comfort in people. It's nice knowing people who do like me and help instead of hurt. (I just started up teaching again and it's been heart-warming being around my students, especially the ones who love me and tell me so. ) I just don't want the people who soothe me to become an emotional crutch, so I have to be careful with that. It's good to have people and supportive connections, but I can't allow myself to become an emotional black hole. That's not fair to others to have to take my burdens.
But, yeah, it's made its impression...
I'm sorry to hear about your anxiety. But relaxing is a good thing, especially if you haven't had a lot of it lately.
I've been... busy. Life and stuff, you know.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
If every LSE took and ENFp or an ESFp to be their life long "partner", then what's the point of the benefits of duality?
Why should I keep hoping for it, since, I've already been in other relationships and I can see the differences and patterns in those interactions and I don't value them above duality?
What would be the point of me being optimistic when you (not setting an example yourself, knowing socionics) is completely ruining it for the potential dual relations you may have?
What will I be hoping for? An LSE who is just not interested in me?
It's not a relationship that I want. I can have that at a drop of a dime, with any other type. I obviously don't want that, which means I have to be more patient, but patience has limits on most days too.
Here's a sad idea: I can always wait for the market of men who have fell out of terrible relationships with ESFp's, who already have kids from these failed unions. But wait! How fair is that to me?
I expect an answer to all of my question.
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 09-13-2010 at 12:15 AM.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Actually Maritsa, I feel the same exact way, and many of these thoughts have been going through my head lately as well. It's a shame.
But when i start feeling too worried about it, I tell myself, it only takes ONE. And there are LOTS of duals out there apparently. The other day, very recently, I found myself in the presence of an SLI, and though he was quite a bit older than me (older than someone i'd consider being in a relationship with), the connection was instant and easy. The psychological proximity was unmistakeable. This put away many of my fears of not being able to recognize my dual in public, and was encouraging to feel that same effect again.
So, when the right dual in the right stage of life comes along, it'll happen for you, regardless of those duals who have chosen their relationships unwisely; they will instead go through life never as complete as they could have been. Too bad. Like Jean Gabin.... poor guy. I wish he could reincarnate and then I would marry him.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
LOL!!!
That raccoon has REALLY good teeth, btw.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx