1st and 2nd functions

[Joy]

I have a couple observations, and I'd like some input. The first two functions are the functions that are the most natural and easy to use and that one is most comfortable using. It seems that the 1st function is what you automatically are, and the 2nd function is what you automatically do(and I think the 3rd function is what you feel you "should" do). It also seems that extensive use of the 2nd function exhausts a person, while the 1st function doesn't. However, when the 1st function is used and the second function is not, a person does not feel stimulated.

Using myself as an example, I can't have too much Si, but I get bored if that's all I'm doing. Fe is fun and easy to use, but it wears me out if I do it too much and then I feel like I need to Si for a while to relax. (lol Si isn't a verb)

Does this sound right?

[Olga]

I definetly better relate to sensorical ethical types, it is easier to understand what they mean. When I read staff from intellectuals I feel like I am reading the foreign langauge and struggling to translate it.
When sensorical ethical type presents info it is coloured in different shades of something material like emotions and you got a feeling you can touch it, when it is too abstract or symbolic it is pressure for me.

I would like to ask you to comment on the third function. What do you mean by saying "what we should do" - what it would be for different types or for your type?

[Joy]

Honestly, I'm still trying to understand the 3rd function better myself. I think that people feel like it is expected of them and sometimes they resent this, especially if their first two functions are not being rewarded. It seems that when the functions are not balanced it can be somewhat of a sore spot, something which causes frustration. You use your 3rd function because you don't feel you can get along in the world well unless you do.

It's described as:

Your role function never wants to stand out. You always try to go with the normal social behavior in this function, because you are unsure of it. You do not like criticism in this function therefore you won't give it.

I think the difference between the 3rd and 4th function is that with the 3rd, you feel you should use the function. It isn't generally a very strong function, but it's not the weakest because it's something we make a conscious effort to use. The 4th function is also something that is a sore spot, but we do not feel that it is reasonable for others to expect us to use it and generally see no reason that we should have to.

[Creepy-]

However, when the 1st function is used and the second function is not, a person does not feel stimulated.

I feel adequately stimulated when is in play. When predominates I get tired quickly - possibly because I'm an introvert; possibly because the extroverted rational functions (because they are dependent on "group" ideas and hence adjust to them) require more sustained attention than I am capable of giving; possibly because I'm just not confident with it.

[Kirana]

joy - you decided you're ISFp? when did this happen? did i miss anything?

[Megan]

Yes, I agree with Joy what she said about functions. I think no matter are you extravert or introvert we all get tired from the overuse of our second function and this justifys the extraversion/intraversion dimension we are either more introverts or extraverts. And it is also about perception. Extraverts may appear as introverts if they use extensively their second introverted function and on the opposite. But i don't think it is difficult to decide about this dimension is you know the person a bit better.

Shall we talk about the rest of the functions?

[Joy]

This is what I have so far...

1 and 2: The first two functions are the functions that are the most natural and easy to use and that one is most comfortable using. It seems that the 1st function is what you automatically are, and the 2nd function is what you automatically do. It also seems that extensive use of the 2nd function exhausts a person, while the 1st function doesn't. However, when the 1st function is used and the second function is not, a person does not feel stimulated.

3: Honestly, I'm still trying to understand the 3rd function better myself. I think that people feel like it is expected of them and sometimes they resent this, especially if their first two functions are not being rewarded. It seems that when the functions are not balanced it can be somewhat of a sore spot, something which causes frustration. You use your 3rd function because you don't feel you can get along in the world well unless you do. The reason we feel we're supposed to use 3 because 5 is weak.

3 and 4: I think the difference between the 3rd and 4th function is that with the 3rd, you feel you should use the function. It isn't generally a very strong function, but it's not the weakest because it's something we make a conscious effort to use. The 4th function is also something that is a sore spot, but we do not feel that it is reasonable for others to expect us to use it and generally see no reason that we should have to.

I'm still working on the other functions. There is a thread about the 3rd, 5th, and 6th functions you could check out... but this is what I have so far...

5: You don't realize that you're not doing this because you use the 3rd function in it's place. You're not sensitive about this function being weak. You don’t realize we need help with this function, but others.

6: You are sensitive about this function because you like to think it is strong, and you are quite responsive when others use it or make you feel that you're doing a good job using it.

7: This something we unconsciously pay attention to in others and don't use unless provoked, and then we use it aggressively.

8: you inspire others to use but don't really notice.

(lol kirana)

[discojoe]

And we are now at zero practicality.

[Olga]

I do like your interpritation. I think it would be good to describe any of your well known type (may be ISFP?) using this interpretation and provide some examples from real life.
I also would like to mention a couple of things which i did not clear out yet about conscious and subconscious.

You said:

5: You don't realize that you're not doing this because you use the 3rd function in it's place. You're not sensitive about this function being weak. You don’t realize we need help with this function, but others.

I would say you you are right. I remember how my friend said to me once that she does not trust me with washing the dishes (she thought I may break it) and she also said that when i walk she thinks I may fall (probably she perceived me walking unsteady). I was surprised to hear that. Now of course knowing all this functions you immidiatly analize your behaviour and what you say so we can say once you know about your weak points they are not that unconscious anymore.

7: This something we unconsciously pay attention to in others and don't use unless provoked, and then we use it aggressively.

May be we feel kinda envious if people possess functions similar to us but different in quality (I mean introversion/extraversion direction). For example, I can be boring and serious at times and i don't like it - I guess it is too much of my first function. In my associative socionics I would say I am a heavy water and can put too much pressure on people - I am aware of it and do limit myself on this function which can be very uncomfortable for the others and for me at times.
So I agree with what you said but I think we do not use it just aggressively we can use it also in a positive manner if we need to inspire others. But this is a grey area and I am not 100% sure.

What we shall discuss next?

[Joy]

1 Si: LOL I'm hedonist. I've done too many drugs and drank too much in my life. I also LOVE good food and wine. I dress either comfortably or well, and the colors look good together, even if I'm putting on shorts and a tank top to sleep in. It's not something I really think about though. Also, taking ADD medication GREATLY reduces Si. I stopped taking it for a few weeks but just started taking it again on Monday.

2 Fe: I am a very expressive person. I'm also VERY aware of others emotions and motivations. I often see the true issue in a conflict when others are focused on the results of the issue. I am able to have a "sense" of people and their interactions, and I notice tension right away. I am very good at smoothing out the tension in most situations. Unfortunaley, being so animated in the way I engage people inspires them to use Fi (my 8th function), and once that happens the situation is largely beyond my control. When I'm a neutral party I can see people's emotional disstress and make them more comfortable, but once I'm involved it gets a lot more complicated, often too complicated for me to do anything about. This is why drama seems to follow me around no matter where I go.

3 Ni: Hmmmmm This is where it gets complicated... I grew up taking care of my sister who is my identical, so I ended up developing stronger Ne that most ISxps in order to fill the dual role. Because of this I don't lean on Ni as much as most ISxps do. I can give one example though, and that is my issues with time management. There are days I couldn't be on time to save my life. I also take too long to do things, procrastinate excessively, and miss deadlines. This causes a great deal of frustration with myself and if I got to pick one thing to change about myself, my horrible time management would definitely be it.

4 Te: I cannot stand it when people think that I'm easy to understand. ENTjs, for example, say that I'm a very simple minded person who is easy to read. OMFG I HATE THAT!!! Do not catagorize me. The only way to understand me is to realize that you cannot understand me. Do not simplify my thoughts or actions. Do not expect me to give short answers to questions. I almost NEVER do. ENTjs are VERY to-the-point and get extremely irritated because I am not. I don't assume that the information I have is complete or accurate. In fact, I generally assume it's not.

5 Ne: I'm an unusual ISFp due to reasons stated in #3.

6 Ti: I have always been attracted to intellectual thinkers. My favorite character in a movie or TV series was always the smart one, and I do like to think of myself as an intellectual. According to the description of the 6th function, I'm not as intellectual as I like to think I am. Again though, filling the dual role for my entire life has likely made this function stronger than it would be for most IxFps.

7 Se: The 7th function is weak unless we're using it aggressively... so this means that ISxps have a Se temper. Thinking about this... it makes sense. I don't generally allow myself to get angry anymore, but when I did I'd often throw things (mostly furniture) or break things (usually nothing important). I also used to go crazy on the heavy bag when I got mad. I used to yell a lot, too.

8 Fi: See #2

[tcaudilllg]

1 Si: LOL I'm hedonist. I've done too many drugs and drank too much in my life. I also LOVE good food and wine. I dress either comfortably or well, and the colors look good together, even if I'm putting on shorts and a tank top to sleep in. It's not something I really think about though. Also, taking ADD medication GREATLY reduces Si. I stopped taking it for a few weeks but just started taking it again on Monday.

That's too bad about the ADD. Living in a world that isn't "ADD" must make it hard on those who are ADD.

[Joy]

I've learned a lot of ways to make my style of thinking work for me instead of against me, largely through multi-tasking and hyper-focusing. Right now I'm taking a plumbing code class though... and it's torturous without Concerta and I really don't see myself passing it without medication. I also found that I was making mistakes at work, but there are a combination of other factors that have been contributing to this. After my class is over, I will probably try to stop taking it again. I don't like gaining weight, but I'll be very active with work and other things, so it's likely that I won't at that point. Besides, there are more than a handful of people who said I looked best before I lost weight, so whatever. Basically, I just really want to feel well again, and feel like myself. Fe also becomes weaker when I'm on ADD meds, but sometimes that's a good thing.

[Creepy-]

1) Joy, your medications are fucked up. Start taking mine, it is better for you and doesn't affect my personality

2) As for the 8th function: OMG I'M ENCOURAGING OTHERS TO USE ??? *curls into foetal position*

3) Would producing subtypes get tired from using their creative function? Or is it a phenomenon limited to accepting subtypes?

[Joy]

hmmm I hadn't considered the subtype thing. what do you think?

[Creepy-]

I think it's probably limited to accepting subtypes, although I'm not a producing subtype myself so I'd have to ask a few to be sure.

[Gilly]

I think producing subs probably just have a higher threshold for use of their creative function, whereas accepting subs have greater/more extensive use of their first function.

[Olga]

The whole idea of subtypes is not clear in my head as well as producing (extraverted) and accepting (introverted)?

I noticed it (limitaion of the creative function) in extraverts and introverts but I can not tell about all types asa there are differences which we might be not aware of.

What ADD stands for, something like alcohol addiction? I think all positive methods are good in fighting problems like that. We have bodies so medication is fine and plus the psyche so other methods like alternative therapies etc. would be fine too.

It is always interesting to know how the types describes thier own functions. if a few of the same types would compare thier experiences of functions that would be even better. We could probably tap in better in understanding what is counscious and subcounscious as regards to functions. This discription is like a rich material to think about because you can look it at from different points depending what your interests are. May be some new thoeries and ideas could be applied to it ?

I remember long time ego I have considered not 8 functions but only four and I was mixing up constantly third and fourt functions because of the different positions in the models.

or



My idea at that time was simple enough that the dual functions (5,6,7,8) have the same power but are not used as es much as the first four (1&2 EGO block, 3&4 SUPERego block), they are more like shadow functions. Of course if we shall assume that we shall miss on the detailed and specific charateristics made by socionics about 5&6 SUPERID block and 7 & 8 ID block - and we don't want that. However, it may be simpler first to understand the whole idea aobut ego and superego blocks and then to move to detailed analysis of the other blocks.

Joy's discription showed to me that this is the case: that both functions are of the same power but used selectively and (sensorics) , & (intuition). It could well be that she is not aware fully how she uses or where it expresses itself compared to . One ISFP told me she is very clever on orientation (car driving), with a minimum info she finds mysterically well the location she has to go. I believe it is + working together or sensorics plus intuition. It is an animal power (how cats find their homes from miles away or birds?) If you have this kind of animal power to guide you would you be interested in somebody teaching you exact instructions ? You would probably say something like: leave me alone stuid ... (people), I can find my own way through without your help.

What would be interesting to compare how + works for ISTP types and where is the difference compared to Se: + for example
for ESFP type. As you can see my attention is drawn more to the first and third function or the second and fourth functions of the same version.

It would be interesting to see how theorists of this forum would apply their theories to Joy's description of functions.

[Olga]

The functions in the middle did not come out right :

or

[Creepy-]

@Olga: ADD = attention deficit disorder

[Rocky]

Producing means using your second functions and accepting means using your first function. So, for an ISFJ, a producing subtype would be the Se subtype, and an accepting subtype woulf be Fi.