Originally Posted by rosewood
This will be my mantra from now on. And I'm also planning to incorporate the EIE one: I am a fan of washing dishes. When I was dishes, tears of happiness run down my expresionless face.
I am a huge fan of washing dishes. When I wash dishes, tears of happiness run down my expressionless face.
P.S. I was just browsing for new drawings on Etsy while writing this. And I'm penniless as you might imagine
The stock market is a circus -- your brain rejects it because it's madness. And dull, I concur. Very dull.I am extremely wasteful and bad with money. I like buying myself pretty things, nothing especially complex about itI simply want to enjoy present moments as much as possible and not worry about the future. But I have a healthy feeling when enough is enough and when I have to start saving if I want to survive. I also feel like I will always somehow make it and everything will work out fine financially, even if it looks like I'm doomed. I don't like worrying about something as trivial as money, although ironically it means a lot more to me than I would like to admit (I would kinda kill myself if I was dirt-poor, as bad as it sounds). Although I've always been self-sufficient throughout my life, I would not oppose if someone would take care of money for me, if he really felt like it
. It just seems so...time-consuming to me. I've also never really understood world economy, stock markets, the circulation of money ...not that I'm not capable of understanding it, but it just feels like my brain rejects the very idea of remembering anything about such a dull topic (no offense to anyone
) . Which is why I sometimes feel like a dimwit when talking to some LSE's or LIE's.
Forget about the LSE's & Co. We'll let our SLE duals bring home the big bucks so we can get on with more worthwhile things.
Mao Zedong was almost certainly beta, I agree, but what's your argument for IEI?
I need to adopt this one too!
I am a huge fan of washing dishes. When I wash dishes, tears of happiness run down my expressionless face.
P.S. I was just browsing for new drawings on Etsy while writing this. And I'm penniless as you might imagine
When I wash the dishes,
I am a huge fan of washing dishes. When I wash dishes, tears of happiness run down my expressionless face.
P.S. I was just browsing for new drawings on Etsy while writing this. And I'm penniless as you might imagine
Nothing much gets done;
With all the splashes and splishes,
I'm having too much fun!
I have been interested in studying recent chinese history since it has been so odd. Anywho, simply compare Mao to fuhr****** as a beginning, you notice the mutual idealism but fuhr was more realistic due his outward focus. He was always acutely aware of the energy he sent to others, he lead people and desired to have them feel his message; he took advantage of new opportunities , he was more in control.
Though Mao focused more on cultivating a vision, an ideal, he only wanted to be seen as a benovelent force. He never cared about anything outside his vision, its one of the reasons he would insist on abitary ideas that never even reflected the mood of the time, poor opportunity awareness. You see this with the famine and cultural revolution, he was only concerned with the idea.
This is not to insult IEI but those are some of their real negative traits. Mao was a true intellectual in his utter detachment from reality, you can see this in his commitment to fulfilling communist ideals, and utter apathy to what he'd view as the less important present conditions. It got to a point where it was so bad that he felt the cultural revolution was the only thing he could implement with minimal side effects, but that had unexpected poor results. Overall the mess he had created was catching up to him.
That makes a lot of sense. Hit-ler's creative-Ni would have kept him on the pulse of the sentiments of the masses, and determining the precise time to take action. With base-Ni, the idea is more important than the reality. IEIs want to be liked, it's true. When we look to the long term future, we see interpersonal obstacles rather than practical obstacles. I guess that's why we use Fe creatively, as though to make others better disposed towards us.
What traits would you say benefited Mao in his rise to power?
Well how he had a vision for the future well thought out despite the absence of any evidence to support it. Coming from a calamity people wanted reassurance for the future, his ideas pretty much brought that. They wanted to believe in a better future and he provided that; their present stat3 was terrible so promises were better than nothing he had uncertainty of the present for support.
EIE will attack their overall unrealistic idealism but they can't provide the overwhelming confidence IEI can in a really volatile and uncertain future. Robert Mugabe is another IEI who is too much like mao, he got into power for identical reasons.
Is that because IEIs are positivists and EIEs are negativists?
That makes sense but so does the process vs results argument to an extent, and of course the idea that rationals favour action only in stability. Sometimes the theory side can be really confusing, there is a lot to study I wish socionist would really care about looking at real people as opposed to wallowing in theory without evidence.
Would subtype affect this? If, for the sake of hypothesis, we are dealing with the rational subtype of an irrational type, would the information metabolise differently?
Yeah. The model is great, but more empirical studies need to be done.
I am extremely wasteful and bad with money. I like buying myself pretty things, nothing especially complex about it
it sounds ilke you are korean.
yes to metabolise differently.
no to empirical studies.
In what way is it different? I can't find any information on this.
someone has posted this about Te Polr
I’ve noticed that people with Te PoLR tend to disbelieve things that contradict their own experiences, and sometimes even have an easy time ignoring information that doesn’t agree with what they already know. Since Te is heavily related to external information, it makes sense that those weak in Te would have difficulty assessing how ‘correct’ that information is.
They also seem to have difficulty searching for information and assembling that information in a way that appears organized to an outside observer. A Te PoLR person always organizes information (like when explaining things verbally, or writing an outline—for example) in a way more consistent with the experience they had when hunting the information down; as well as more consistent with the message they wish to impart in listeners/viewers (Fe oriented—their creative function).
I think this is where Ti dual seeking comes in. Ti is related to consistency of information, and pinpointing the breakdown of ‘sense’ within a system. A Ti individual (ENTp or ESTp) won’t put emphasis on Te aspects of information, like focusing on external facts and their relevancy; instead they will build upon information and self-make a system of thought that is consistent with themselves and what they experience (Ti).
A process which goes hand-in-hand with the IxFp who builds experience based knowledge but is unsure of their own personal competence and looks for clarity in the information they find. A ExTp is able to point out inconsistencies in the information a IxFp brings forth, without using a long-winded explanation that delves deeply into details—which would poke the Te PoLR, making them less likely to listen.
In contrast, with Ti-leading types and their duals (ENFj-ISTj and ESFj-INTj) you see that in cases where the building of emotional atmospheres drifts too far in a direction, the Ti-leading will concisely, logically, and consistently “point out” the less than rational direction the ExFj is taking in a way that doesn’t disrupt the mood but does prompt the ExFj to redirect it (if they please, that is). There’s the same treatment of information, but it’s even more the center of their interactions.
I experience it at work places where i dont have instructions and my work leader just assumes that i know how to do things and whaat to do first. And then they complain and say something like "why are you doing this now? you were supposed to do this first obviously" and cause they didnt , for example, specify what tool to use i may choose the one thats least effective then theyre baffled by me choosing that. This happens when im new to something and obviosuly not when im used to it and know exactly what and when to do it.
I don't know whether I relate to the idea that Te-PoLR manifests as a person having issues determining the validity of external information.
Whether the dictionary is correct or incorrect doesn't really matter. It seems to be a source of information used by most people. The information gives a person a general idea of what a word means. Factoring connotation is the more difficult issue. You may not know how a word is interpreted by others because it involves their subjective perspective.
Maybe I am in need of other examples of Te-PoLR manifestation.
Would a person's PoLR be more easily identified by that individual or people who know the person?
I agree with you on the determining validity. I don't have a problem with that.
You have to figure it out for yourself. Others will tell you your polr is whatever information they are offering that you do not accept.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Any weak function is bad to have.
While what you say about Te is due to the lack of understanding of it.
Tell me how bad it is to have your weak functions?
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
What is Te polr to youI agree with you on the determining validity. I don't have a problem with that.
You have to figure it out for yourself. Others will tell you your polr is whatever information they are offering that you do not accept.
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Keeping on top of things like paying bills on time and remembering to change my credit card number when autopay expires. Not checking email because I get overwhelmed by the sheer volume of it. Then trying to read and deleted and sort all in one day when the mood strikes me. I have most of that automated because it gives me a headache. Things like opening mail when I get it. I throw it in a box and sometimes wait months. I have an inner resistance to doing it until I feel like I have to. Not looking at my bank statement for months at a time. Remembering to do car maintenance as I was instructed to so my car doesn't die.
I am grateful to live in a time of autopay and automation in general.
I feel perfectly capable of determining the validity of information. I have research skills as well. All this was taught to me. If someone's source of information contradicts mine I am going with mine over theirs. If it contradicts my intuition they better have a great argument why their information is valid.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
hah. i suffer from these matters too @Aylen. these are the sorts of reasons i originally self-typed apolr type.
For comparison I'm not like what you describe but I have periods of low will where I feel lack of energy and don't or can't to anything but to want to relax and do something pleasant like watch science channel
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Maybe you are inumbrahah. i suffer from these matters too @Aylen. these are the sorts of reasons i originally self-typed a
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Not wanting to pay bills, checking bank statements, checking emails etc is not Te related, its just being lazy and disliking doing it because who the f likes it...
Ah I don't think that you are IEI you make far too many assumptions to be one. My mom likes it she's ILI
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Lol, okay. Your hair is too dark youre not an EII
I wouldn't necessarily look at like/dislike. How a person deals with bills, bank statements, and emails might be more telling of type rather than whether it is liked or disliked.
Are you okay?
Like/dislike and how you handle it, how good you are at it, goes together.
Are you okay?
I am okay. Thank you for asking.
I asked because your statement was a bit brusque.
Let's compare this to my parents. My dad didn't like dealing with bills because it was too boring and methodical for him. My mom using her Te liked to organize things in a timely manner using her Ni. She kept in mind all the tasks that needed to be performed and did them on time. Her lack of will resulting from Se searching manifested in the human sphere. She didn't feel like meeting people and she wanted to be left alone to do inanimate tasks or be with just one person who's company she enjoyed
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
More Te polr: not wanting to dicsuss a topic unless youre well knowledged(?) in it, in fear of looking stupid, not having concrete evidence for their arguments/speculations.
See it is not being lazy for me. It is much deeper and it is a resistance to how things SHOULD be done. I have a system that works for me and when nothing interrupts my system everything is fine. Not sure if you have to deal with these things yourself yet so if you don't you won't know if it effects you until it starts. Not everyone experiences polr the same way.
I can get other stuff done without a problem... it is the sorting and organizing of the information (objects) that is specifically stressful. I can actually build a computer from scratch with less problem but that was the hardest part of tech school for me. I can do it but it takes more effort. I can sort and organize my internal symbolism and thoughts much better.
\The logic of doing these actions conflicts with my internal sense of timing, although I am not saying Ni is timing. It isn't but I have a good sense of when something needs to be done and people pushing their facts on these issues meets with my internal resistance. If someone leaves me a message as a reminder I am less touchy about it but if someone lectures me about when or how these kinds of things should be done, and I find it unnecessary in that moment, I feel unwelcome psychological pressure. The logic of how things like this should be done goes against my own desires. I am allergic to rigid thinking and it manifest in this way for me. I only have a problem with my system when someone points out it isn't the most efficient or whatever or they question my logic when I know it is sound, then I begin to stress. If I do not know what I am doing I will find my own source of information unless I trust someone enough to ask them for help.
In contrast Se is actually quite nice.
With Extraverted Thinking, the judging is done based on facts and logic, rather than emotions and values.
Extraverted Thinkers are able to set aside how they feel about something, so they can separate out the objective facts from their emotions.
We all experience emotions when making decisions. In fact if you watch your thought process closely enough you will notice that when it's time to decide something, you first have a gut feel for what to do. But this gut feel is based on your emotions. What Extraverted Thinkers do is that they recognize the emotional content, but then they set it aside to focus on the facts.
Extraverted Thinkers tend to be logical, objective and fair.
For example, in a management role, when it comes time to review an employee, the Te manager will look at the measurable data and the facts. They will be fair with the employee even if they don't like them. They will set aside emotion and try to base their judgment on concrete results.
Because of this objective, fact based style, Extraverted Thinkers can look like they are cold and unfriendly. They also can appear to be bossy. However deep inside they may not really be cold, unfriendly and bossy.
Dominant Extraverted Thinkers tend to be very organized. Their thought process is focused on the external, real world, rather than the inner world as it is for Introverted Thinkers. Thus they try to arrange the real world to suit their needs.
They use their energy to make an impact in the real world. They are driven to achieve their goals and objectives.
Extraverted Thinkers can be so organized and so driven towards achieving results that they frequently end up being promoted to work in management. Once they have organized themselves, they are ready to organize everyone else around them.
The need to organize and achieve one's goals results in the Extraverted Thinker establishing procedures and protocols. They can easily create written instructions for others to follow.
If you wanted someone to help plan and organize a project, and to keep the project on schedule for you, you would want to ask someone with either a dominant or auxiliary Extraverted Thinking to help you. That's what their brains are wired to do.
Extroverted logic is an rational, extroverted, and dynamic IM element. It is also referred to as Te, P, algorithmic logic, practical logic, or black logic (because the symbol is black). Extroverted logic deals with the external activity of objects, i.e the how, what and where of events, activity or work, behaviour, algorithms, movement, and actions. The how, what and where of events would be the external activity of events, activity or work would be the external activity of a machine or individual(s) and algorithms describe the external activity of objects.
Since Te perceives objective, factual information outside the subject (external activity) and analyzes the rationale and functionality of what is happening or being done or said. "Quality" to a Te type is how well an object performs the functions for which it was made. A Te type can judge a person to be "effective" if he is able to achieve his purposes without wasting any energy or producing unwanted side effects. So Te types basically evaluate people and things using the same criteria.
Te as Leading Function
Extroverted logic as base function is manifested as a need to accumulate factual information, also from external sources such as books, second-hand information, etc, on matters of personal interest or of professional activity. This also gives these types confidence on being well-informed on the same matters, which enables them to enter arguments related to them with confidence on their knowledge, which may come across as arrogance to others. Another manifestation is an evaluation of external reality - work activities, world events, finances, procedures, personal relationships, conversations - from the point of view of factual accuracy and "making sense" and efficiency. It leads to an inclination to be proactive in increasing the efficiency and reasonableness of the external world, as well as a sense of self-worth connected on being involved and productive in activities seen as useful, profitable, or that increase one's knowledge base. To give out information that the individual knows not to be factually accurate is disturbing and avoided as much as possible.
Extroverted Logic (Te,)
When confronted with a large body of factual information with which they are unacquainted, IEIs will often hesitate and refrain from saying anything so as to avoid appearing unknowledgeable or potentially embarrassing themselves. They may feel threatened and vacillate if pressured into producing critical evaluations of factual information or statistics; they may feel as though they do not know what to do with this type of information, and often prefer to rely on their internal conceptual framework use their understanding of the relevant processes to evaluate a situation. They may also be wary of basing their beliefs or actions on facts from outside sources, instead preferring to rely on their own insights. These behaviors can sometimes lead to confusion and lack of clarity, as they may have difficulty clearly explaining and underscoring the information pertinent their ideas.
They are often unconcerned with optimizing productivity or efficiency. They may generally try to avoid evaluating cost-effectiveness of resources, and are often not apt at making such discriminations. They may see persons who focus extensively on practical matters as boring and inanimate. They deeply dislike and can avoid tedious and disinteresting tasks that involve attention to detail and pragmatic focus, such as managing one's finances. They usually are exhausted by these tasks; they have no interest in and little idea how to do them, and often find it difficult to focus. They may be petulant and unresponsive in encounters with individuals who try to mobilize them into productive tasks, and may feel that such individuals are bossy and contemptible.They may seem overly dreamy, lost in their own enterprises, and generally oblivious to the nature of the mundane tasks that surround them.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Yes that lovely logic of action... You "should" do it now because we won't have time later. Me: okay
@Aylen SLE will leave you alone until you are ready. Also, if you just tell an LSE okay and you'll do it now they won't lecture you further Aylen. Obay or get lectured
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
it's not being lazy for me either... it's that i honestly struggle to keep up with these things. they don't stay on my radar unless i put forth a lot of effort trying to keep them there. my problems have been made worse by my depression. i used to not struggle nearly as badly as i do now. i struggle to concentrate on these tasks too--it's actually functionally difficult for me. but maybe i'm just a dementia patient now. i also get overwhelmed by all the fine print in things like credit card statements and never feel like i fully understand the ins and outs of it well enough (though i'm afraid to try often because an overwhelming amount of fine print and jargon kind of scares the shit out of me--perhaps i will never understand it well enough...). also they are constantly changing their interest rates and whatever.
probably office work jobs don't help as they are full of stuff like this, and i think i just feel inundated with paper all the time so the mere sight of it fills me with dread often. my strategy before i began working in office jobs with my own paper was to minimize it as much as possible and devise a system... with small amounts i can keep track (though i'm not sure about that anymore). i can't manage everyone's paper though--i can't keep track of it all.
I can relate.
I don't even read the fine print. I own stocks but tbh I choose them based on intuition + feeling and I have done fine plus I have kept what my dad bought for us. I figured he was ILI-Te and he knew better than me.
I can troubleshoot just about every computer problem by myself. If I run into a problem I can't sort I will ask a trusted friend but computers are only intimidating to me when I have to physically pull them apart. Then I start whining about how I suck at it. I have to be reminded I was trained for this but it still doesn't make it easier when I have to replace a part. I feel I am not good at it even though I can do it and I don't actually suck at it.
I agree depression makes it worse. I went into a deep depression in tech school when it came to showing how I built my computer in the precise order in which it was done. I had to take weeks off because I also made myself physically ill. I finally recovered and graduated but that was the only class I got lower than an A in. I got a B+ and I was pretty down on myself for it.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
i still feel pretty confident in my ability to trouble-shoot computers even though i don't know as much as i could know. but i'm not sure i use a
my issue with a lot of "financial stuff" is that i have very little intuition on it and i rely on insight heavily... so when there isn't insight (that fast "i *see* this") then i feel blind. i think i would probably need to take a class or something, but financial things aren't at the top of my priority list even since i have so many other problems.
Same about computers and my car too. I have insight into my cars problems and have told mechanics what the issue was to have them disagree with me but it turned out I was right. I think of it as becoming one with the energy not the object. Computers are easy to troubleshoot because of intuition and introverted thinking. I actually passed my computer build test by doing it my way and then writing the procedures according to the textbook. They didn't actually know I didn't do it by the book because everything worked.i still feel pretty confident in my ability to trouble-shoot computers even though i don't know as much as i could know. but i'm not sure i use a
my issue with a lot of "financial stuff" is that i have very little intuition on it and i rely on insight heavily... so when there isn't insight (that fast "i *see* this") then i feel blind. i think i would probably need to take a class or something, but financial things aren't at the top of my priority list even since i have so many other problems.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Te is not lesser important. You need to know facts about possible malfunctions, about specs of concrete software and hardware, to plan a process to fix it, to find a best solution by looking forums. Computers and software are done not ok from systematic (Ti) point of view, there is a lot of bugs and conflicts. The consequence is when you meet a problem there is often several possible reasons for it and you need practically to sort out alternatives, to dig into new info.
When you do something not by standards, it can work correctly in one situation and don't in other where should. It may also to work unstably or the problems will appear later.They didn't actually know I didn't do it by the book because everything worked.
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