subtypes-finally, an explanation!

[Olga]

@ Fever: I am usually organising routine/weekend outings but my husband takes initiative about more serious things like holidays. He can sit the whole weekend at home doing his work or just playing games on PC.

So it looks like I am a producing subtype? This nice theory does not explain to me how do I fit with my husband, does it? So I am going to look
a bit more into subtypes. For example, INFJ could be ethical intuitive or ethical thinking subtype depending on what is more important for him.
Intuitive INFJ would be more attracted ENFp or ESTJ but if INFJ would be ethical thinking subtype he could be fine with ISTJ as well?

I think we need to consider not only the degree of development of separate functions like base and creative but also the degree of the development of the blocks. I understand that it would be silly to talk about the develpment of Superid and ID blocks because they are sort of sleepy but why should we stop to define subtypes only on the basis of the EGO block as if the Superego block of no existance, importance or power?

It would be interesting to ask here how different types consider their third function? Just like a nice mask to hide behind (role function)? or is it anything to do with your ambitions and achievements? I am sure that those who have as a third function do not just pretend to be intelligent but are actually interested in accumulating theoretical knowledge. It may also be that the majority of people on this website have got as a base (first), creative (second) or ambition (third) function?

[CuriousSoul]

And if I woud be ethical sensorical and not ethical thinking subtype, may be I would be more interested in more energetic and physically strong partners like ENTJ, ESFP (which I did!). Could anybody wrap up my thoughts into a nice theory?

Dear Olga
Have you considered the possibility that you might actually be INTJ?
Your logic and intuition seem to be very well developed.
It would also fit much better with your relationships, I gather your previous boyfriend was an ENTJ and now you are married to an INTJ.
It is very common for thinking females to mistake themselves for feeling types. Your thoughts on subtypes sound very interesting, but currently the subtypes seem highly confusing to me, so I prefer to abstain from further comments.

[Creepy-]

i think someone can be totally split between subtypes and even switch according to different situations and different people that provoke stronger use of one function or another and also certain phases they r experiencing at set points in their life. for instance when i am going through a phase of deep depression, (my creative function) dominates, and it seems as though i'm in an eternal trance-like state yet it is here where i receive the most insightful information. seems more dominant when i'm around dominant and types. So i don't think subtype is static.

I think the subtype is meant to give a general picture of what you are like *most of the time*. There are always fluctuations but as a general rule I would say (for myself) that is my "weakest" function, hence I call myself intuitive subtype even though sometimes other functions predominate.

People adapt the the situations around them, this is a very healthy thing . I think subtype is possibly "static" but people definately aren't.

[science as magic]

i think Olga sounds like an ISFj with well-developed analyzation skills, hence

i think she exerts a heavy-handed role function as well

I think the subtype is meant to give a general picture of what you are like *most of the time*. There are always fluctuations but as a general rule I would say (for myself) that is my "weakest" function, hence I call myself intuitive subtype even though sometimes other functions predominate.

People adapt the the situations around them, this is a very healthy thing . I think subtype is possibly "static" but people definately aren't.

i think it is only that way because the amount of information we are receiving at any one time is not enough to stimulate every facet of us simultaneously

[Olga]

@curious soul and fever: You made me laugh, guys, you flattered me by saying I am INTJ, thank you very much for a nice compliment I can be only ISFJ and no any doubts about that. What's a shame you can not see me and my husband to compare but I will ask him to put some pictures on the site. I am an optimist and my husband ... Due to his strong intuition he is more careful and pessimistic. As I don't have intuition that strong, so I believe in the action.


@ishysquishy: The way you determine subtype is very clear and in this sense I would say I could be a producing subtype but I am not sure. My mind always distracts me from reality and I realize that I am actually far way somewhere in my thoughts.

I don't know who is my comparative type - ISFJ? I definetly do not look like Dreiser but more like ESFP.

At the end of the day we can leave aside the subtype theory of Gulenko without any changes or doubts. But we still can open our mind and think why on earth ISFJ and INTJ may perfectly fit together. The problem with socionics that it does bias your mind because of well developed type descriptions you tend to rather believe than doubt. Another thing is that it looks like not many here on the forum have successful relationships with not well suited (according to socionics) types - we lack personal evidence/experience. I do not have time to read a lot of different websites but I would not trust some of their info that's for sure. I just have read the artcle of rmcnew about superego relationship on socion.info and my relationship is nothing like that at all. I will continue about the subtypes - my perception in the next post.

[FDG]

I am an optimist and my husband ... Due to his strong intuition he is more careful and pessimistic.

ISFJ Optimist?

Intuition = pessimis?????


You're ESFJ Olga.

[Olga]

What is it good about type is that it describes the qualities of you that are static not changing and you recognize yourself as if it is your picture.
However, it would be true to suggest that something should change thorugh life experiences like the physical changes in the body and maturity of mind. So, why can not we suggest that:

1. As children we are using more creative function than the base function?

2. When we are adults we get into the base function mode?

3 When we are mature adults we use a lot of the third function (or both of the functions) from the superego block?

4. Why can not we suggest that through life we strive to improve our weak functions as a simple matter of survival?

5. At the differnt periods of life we may be attracted to different partners which are more suited to our developmental level at that time and that is why relationships can last or not last, because we change, we learn about ourselves and others and make decisions. Hence nothing is without the reason and is a matter of a learning process.

I will show it for example on INFJ type (I can only assume what I am saying): When he/she is a child it is more in a extraverted mode ( I don't know the expression of this mode exactly, please, help....).
When it is adult it is more of a base mode . While he may find as facinating he/she still uses a lot of + to get where he wants to. At this time he has not got power yet (power to push things, to give a direct advise on what to do, how to do and is reluctant to act without careful thougth about consequences). But if he/she works on and accumulates a lot of ethical+ theoretical knowledge about the world of people (not math!) through hard work he will become more confident and will be more involved in actuallygiving direct advice what to do and how to do and possibly in action. If he will not accumulate enough knowledge than he will stay rather an intuitive subtype (more reflective than active
mode). Not all INFJ have to be that way (thinking subtypes), it depends on many different factors and purpose of your life, I guess. I considered only two first blocks but circumstances may bring changes into the type and he/she may develop qualities which are not supposed to be there.

The last thing I would like to mention, when we talk about in association with we actually talk about a qualitatively different thinking which can be called ethical thinking or moral reasoning.

[Olga]

Of course it depends on many other functions in your type but what I meant is:

If you have got intuition as a strong function or shall we say creative fucntion than your weakest function will be sensorics. Ituitive subtypes? are more careful to a degree that it inhibits them when the action is really needed they will think about all possible obsticles in thier way. Sensorical subtypes ? have got intuition as the weakest function so they tend not to think about consequences and thus optimistic and act and ... may well get in a sheet! But do they care? They will act untill they get what they want - thanks God for giving them power!

[FDG]

Of course it depends on many other functions in your type but what I meant is:

If you have got intuition as a strong function or shall we say creative fucntion than your weakest function will be sensorics. Ituitive subtypes? are more careful to a degree that it inhibits them when the action is really needed they will think about all possible obsticles in thier way.!

I have to disagree on this issue. From my experince, the LEAST intuitive types are the ones that can be caught up in worst-case scenarios, and inhibited from acting because of that. People with really strong intuition are more trusting in their predictions ( notice that this DOES NOT mean that their predictions are MORE ACCURATE! ) about the ouctome of a given action, thus more secure when they act.

[FDG]

I will show it for example on INFJ type (I can only assume what I am saying): When he/she is a child it is more in a extraverted mode ( I don't know the expression of this mode exactly, please, help....).

This makes a lot of sense to me. I used my a lot more when I was a child. Lots of daydreaming, when alone.

[FDG]

I used a lot of as a kid, and now I'm becoming more .

Yeah, sex is nice

[Polly_G]

The subject of subtypes confuses me because I barely have the functions down as is. How would one go about finding their subtype and is there some website which explains the inter[ersonal relations between subtypes as 16 types does for regular types?

The type I think I can appear very much like is the ENFp. I definately have a silly switch and I share a lot of values and social interests with ENFps. I think I make them a little nervous or something at first but once they get to know me they relax.

I did the enneagram and can't remember my numbers but I was a leader first and helped people second.

Actually, I think I'm going to take this post to the What's my Type Forum but you all seem to know so much about it, feel free to comment.

[Olga]

@Polly: so you are not sure are you ENTP or ENFP?
Well, ENTP has got a mind of a scientist, it is a logical abstract thinking but the are of relationship is where he is not sure how exactly people relate to him, may be finds difficult to interpret social clues and tends to misinterpret them. For example, people may treat him badly but he will not notice it and will still think good about those people and may be even feel sorry for them until somebody say to ENTP that he is an idiot and needs to react adequately.
I don't think ENFP could get into situation like this? But ENFP may be not sure about his theoretical knowledge or may be is careful what he is saying in public as he does not want to be perceived as stupid. It would be unbearable to fall down and be counted as incompetent and unprofessional. Please, let me know, if this helps and if you are sure aobut your type than we can have a look on your subtype from different perspectives. I hope the others will help us and correct me if I am wrong.

[Polly_G]

Actually no, I'm sure I'm an ENTp, my question was in relation to the subtypes.

[Olga]

@: Polly. If you look at the beginning of this thread and then some other explanations of Rocky and Ishysquishy you will see that subtype is determined eather by your base function or creative function and can be interpreted as a usual mode. That means either more extraverted (accepting?) or more introverted (producing). I think, associations has been also made with the appearance of types. You can have a look at the picture galeries to see that people of the same type may differ in thier facial features. As far as I understood (?!) if you look like a traditional ENTP than you are an intuitive subtype (base function) but if you look more like logical subtype then you may look more like INTJ type.
This theory does not suggest that you are going to change subtype during your life so it is more like a type or like a tag attached to you.

My theory suggests that subtype is not determined by the base and the creative function but is some quality which can be temporary rather than permanent and can change within the reasonable limits -type (you cannot change your type or switch over to another type whenever you wish) depending on your life experiences, personal growth and probably the state of mental health. I assume that all blocks EGO, Superego, Id and Superid have got a part to play but at the moment I consider only ego and superego blocks. (I would be thankful to all who wish to exchange ideas about interaction of the functions or blocks in determining the differences within the type.. or may be contra ideas?).

Check it out for yourself:
Have you been the same as a child or you think you have been different to what you become as an adult. I noticed that some people were wild as children and become very quiet and reasonable adults and on the opposite, my daughter ESFP was a perfect child and never had any problems with her, but then again as a teeneger she was a bit out of control and as adult she is very outgoing, loud, confident and cheerful.
I woud assume that you have been nore introverted as a child and used but i don't know how it would come to express itself? I would describe it as being in the world of your own abstract thoughts, associations,..explaining things in mind?
Then as adult you become more extraverted and use your ?
Then you must be drawn to action or desire to become a confident and acitve person, taking responsibility and making decisions, being a your own boss? So you do learn it slowly and surely to exercise your power.
And when you have enough experince in power you come to understand the world of people much better and can stand up for your self. You learn to think ethically correct and enterpret the situations ethically correct.
Because the forth function is described as the weakest function it may still be somewhere behind you back (sort of a doubt) but you learn to overcome fear to a degree that it is not anymore in your way you become a balanced individual and play all you functions like a piano.
So if you are not playing your functions like a piano than you may be more of logical subtype ( the major pressure is on the creative function to get where you want to be). If you are pretty much a confident and action person who can give friends conselling sessions you may will be a sensorical subtype. But the way I name subtypes is not yet well defined, may be it is better to call it Ego subtype of ENTP or Superego subtype of ENTP - just to point to the different developmental level.

[Polly_G]

I think I've been typical ENTp most of my life. Environment may have changed my behavior and caused some adaptation by I think my fundamental personality has remained the same.

I was quite wild when I was young. Was a truant, had problems telling the truth, and took some pretty big risks. The changes I see in myself I think are changes most adults get. I've learned to control my behavior, found lying illogical, and pay more attention to consequences.

I'm still changing too. Right up until a few years ago I was a complete push over. Then some things happened in my life which put me to the other extreme of being aggressive for awhile and now I'm settling down to a nice balance of the two.

I think projecting ENFpness was the best I could do to adapt to feelers but it doesn't feel really natural. I'm much more comfortable now with being an ENTp so my personality appears a lot more static than it did when I was younger.

[Megan]

@polly:

While you mentioned a change in your personlaity due to the different reasons/circumstances you said that you become more balanced and static. Does it mean that you could assign some sort of the function or subtype you can be comfortable with? What is in your meaning to be a traditional ENTP? Does it mean that you used some functions more than the others at different times?

You said that you where wild and was lying . May be wild because you are an ecxtravert ( you could be intuitive subtype in childchood?- At some point in your life you were agressive (use of ?) and at the end adjusted to ENFP - feelers ? Isn't it roughly what I was saying about the changes in personlaity and exccesive use of some functions? To be honest I am not sure that theory works may be not, I am not that bothered. It is always interesting to explore.

Did you notice any changes in preferences of partners for example?

[Polly_G]

I have explored the functions in any kind of detail but I'll do my best to answer your questions regardless.

Typical in the descriptions I hear of ENTp. Some of the highlights were:

1. Had an over abundance of energy and loved to climb things. I used to love rock climbing and did so without any equipment because my mom didn't want me to do it so had to do it in secret.

2. I did not fit with the school system whatsoever. I had a very difficult time in the classroom but even without paying attention or doing assignments, faired ok until Junior High. I got passed each year based on my intelligence, not my marks.

3. I had a VERY difficult time relating to other kids. I've read that childhood is particularly difficult for female ENTps and I can relate to that. You just don't fit at all whatsoever. Plus you have an awful lot of people wanting to you act in ways (i.e. girly) which didn't come natural to me at all. I had no stimulus at all to my thinking side growing up with house dominated by feelers. In fact, I was made almost to feel ashamed of it. Girls are supposed to be feelers not thinkers.

4. I had a VERY vivid imagination and spent most of my day dreaming .

5. I recognized manipulation for as long as I can remember. My parents were never able to fool me into doing something. But I can't sense people's personal feelings toward me. Like..do they like or don't they? I have no clue.

6. I've always had the ability to distinquish between the necessary and unnecessary. This was really frustrating for me growing up because I never could understand why anyone would put themselves or me for that matter through unnecessary work due to cultural norms and rituals.
I might not hate this stuff so bad if it wasn't shoved down my throat.

7. I have always been and probably always will be, my own best teacher. I even taught myself to speed read as a young child and used to read a book a day. I didn't know it was speed reading...I thought it was impatient reading. It wasn't until I took a speed reading course as an adult I found out I had been a speed reader my whole life. The methods of others slows me down I find.

8. As a child I just did what I wanted when I wanted to. It was very hard to stop me. The idea that I "can't" do something just doesn't isn't in my realm of thinking.

9. I have the worst memory of anyone I know.

10. I don't like to control people but always seem to end up in leadership roles. Sometimes I try to fight it but it still happens. Its kind of a sore spot for me these days because just be can do something doesn't always mean I should and after a lot of mistakes I have realized this. But when people start becoming aware of just how quick you are, they start coming to you with your problems. I direct them elsewhere, but they go in one big circle and end up back at my desk. So at that point, I will solve their problem because they don't seem to have the ability or want to do it themselves.

11. I'm aghast at how little problem solving skills most people have. Its always been a no brainer to me. I'm just now starting to realize that this is something unique about me so I shouldn't be so hard on others.

12. Being on time for anything is a huge struggle for me without someone pushing me out the door.

So basically I went from being a child who was completely ostrasized from her peers and even her family because of her behavior to someone who is now valued because of the type of thinking that promoted that behavior as a child. Makes me think ENTps are a very ironic personality.

An also important thing I think is that people being so hard on me growing up dampened my confidence quite a bit. Its only now as an adult I'm starting to value my good side instead of focusing on my bad side.

I think that is important as well in how I come across and relate to people. I no longer feel like I'm hiding.

I know I didn't answer everything but at least it gives you more to go on or not, because I'm typing this pretty quick. I'll try to answer better when I get home from work today.

[Olga]

@Polly

thank you very much for providing such a valuable info about yourself and your type. I would say theory should fit the facts and not on the opposite.
Your description does fit ENTP well especially childhood and what you said about leading positions reminded me what my friend said to me once.
Sometimes people try to run away from their duties until they learn to accept it. I assume she is ESFJ and she is also a leader/manager.

It would be interesting to know what is your opinion about your possible subtype. We discuss subtypes because this is probably the key to understanding the differences within the type.

Looking at what you said, you used your irrational extraverted functions a lot in childhood and (e.g knowing what necessary and unnecessary). Your creative function seems was not used a lot but just about to get through the exams. It is probably due to the rational functions being not developed enough/weak. Speed reading is also probably due to irrationality + absract thinking/ grasp the idea. I would not like speed in reading I loose meaning - my rythm is slow.
It would be interesting to compare your experiences with ENFP type people: how much similarity?


You mentioned your problem solving skills and working with people. That is very interesting part. It is something taht came probably later in life and must be associated with the development of rational functions.
is your gift of logical, clear thought and as understanding people's problems. I assume that Ti as creative +Fi as the fourth function will be different from Fi as creative +Fi as fourth function.
May be somebody has got a clear idea about this difference? I can only think of the concern issue. You still may be concerned with the fact that you are not sure how the person feels about you but it will not discourage you from actually helping people in problem solving with providing a "clear cut" logical perspective for those who are lost in their decision making process. For this you need knowldege of kind of general knowledge of people's needs and etc. Clear thinking and empathy. Because your creative function is (or logic) that makes you an official leader, it is important for holding together the system. Those types with as creative or base are more suited for being informal leaders I guess. My daughter ESFP believes she is also good on problem solving, it may well be due to animal power and but she hates theory and is not good on debates in theory so her fourth function is . I said to her the day will come and you will learn it if you going to work on it.
I still believe that through life we develop in the direction from EGO block ( I know) to Superego block (I need). And may be from Superid (I want) to Id block (I can)? Because I need and I can suppose to give us confidence or sort of a freedom. Just to know that you are right or to know something and just to want something is not enough to get where we have to be nd where is the best for us.
Tell me one thing, please, what is it fun for you? I said that I like to think so i believe i am a thinking subtype. And this is one of the reasons why me and my partner fit well togehter.

[Polly_G]

Well, in another thread I was discussing this an Expat felt I was an intuitive subtype. I would tend to agree. I'm not sure on whether or not it has an impact but on an MBTI test administered by a certified instructor it said I was over like 77% Intuitive or something like that.

I may be sensitive to other people's feelings but I am not to my own. I do have feelings I just don't pay attention to them as much as I should. I'm learning to pay more attention to them though. I'm learning to watch out for myself as much as I watch out for others. Before, I always put everyone before me.

I see a lot of outward similiarities with ENFps and I think they see it in me too. I'm a bit more reserved than the ENFps I have come across. They are even more open than I am but you can always tell they are thinking a lot about you when you are speaking to them. I've even found they will avert their eyes sometimes if they are having negative thoughts around me. I do see that underneath our sometimes bubbly exterior we can be very different. I also care less I think if people like me or not. I want to be liked ofcourse, and will even make little efforts to do so. But if someone doesn't like me I just accept it as no big deal unless they start causing me some actual trouble.

When I'm in a dispute with someone I do not hold a grudge for very long. I get over things pretty quickly. However, keep poking when I'm already angered I can give a pretty hard push back figuratively speaking.

[Olga]

@Polly and all
I wonder if you can tell us how your intuition shows itself in comparison to logic . According to Gulenko theory you can be either logical or intuitive. It ouwld be interesting to comapre with logical subtype ENTP on this forum, please, help!

May be intuition does not show itself on itsown but in a companion of another function, e.g. + is related to quick problem solving abilites, something that you really enjoy. May be ther is more to this companion? Now, when you have your life experiences Ne+ Se do not create trouble but work for the better.

If assume that you are intuitve subtype that means logic is slightly weaker and if we consider what you said about feelings - we shall be able to conlclude that on the whole rationlality ( ) is weaker than irrationality ( ). That is all how it should be - that is your type. Probably the subtype can be determined by the function which is strongly represented in the type and that one which gives you real fun.
And while subtype is determined by only one function in the test Polly did we can assume that there is a companion to it. For example, if I would come out as ethical subtype rather than sensorical, than I still will be thinking subtype. Because moral reasoning or ethical thinking is different from just - logical thinking and the test may be was not created to differentiate between those two types of thinking.

Now I would like briefly outline my thoughts wich are slowly shaped into theory. I am not sure if it is a subtype theory or theory of the development within the psyche. I have got a feeling that the development goes into two directions in the blocks:

1. From Ego to Superego, from Superid to Id
From I know what I want to I know what I need and what I can. Practical standpoint.

2. Balance between Rationality and Irrationlaity is crucial to being a happy soal. In rationals irrational functions are supressed and the opposite in irrationals. Through life experiences will learn not to ignore the supressed dimension, we learn to change ourselves so that we could enjoy our life in full.

Irrational addicts stop their habbits because they had enough of it and rational workerholics start relax into holidays and etc. On itsown and not balanced - rationality or irrationality can be a prison.