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Thread: ISTj: actions must be subordinated to a predefined system!

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    Creepy-male

    Default ISTj: actions must be subordinated to a predefined system!

    Actions must be subordinated to a predefined system!

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    I will fight your notions of absolutes and vision with my belief in individual potential and the right to pursue one's own path in life!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolanzon View Post
    I will fight your notions of absolutes and vision with my belief in individual potential and the right to pursue one's own path in life!
    And I will fight your notions of individuality and personal goals with my belief in the importance of external demands and what affects us as a whole rather than individually! *kicks LSI your way*
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone View Post
    And I will fight your notions of individuality and personal goals with my belief in the importance of external demands and what affects us as a whole rather than individually! *kicks LSI your way*
    And I will fight all of your notions of anything with a nihilistic viewpoint that its all really nothing, even what I am saying here is nothing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    And I will fight all of your notions of anything with a nihilistic viewpoint that its all really nothing, even what I am saying here is nothing!

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    lol good stuff

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    ISTj is the type of which the view of people on this forum is the most skewed. It is the type that gets the worst treatment where negative stereotypes are concerned.

    One stereotype about ISTjs that I think is baseless, is the claim that they are inflexible. I find ISTjs generally to be more socially and mentally flexible than most Te types. ISTj isn't really a harsh or difficult to get along with type. They're a little rough in their behavior, that is all.

    Examples of what I think are typical ISTjs:

    Phil Mc. Graw
    Phil McGraw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Terry Gene Bollea (Hulk Hogan)
    Hulk Hogan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Paul Teutul Senior (American Chopper)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Teutul,_Sr.
    Peter R. de Vries
    peter r de vries - Google Afbeeldingen

    Gordon Ramsey is an example of what an ISTj is NOT. He is an ExTj.

    The main thing that I look for when identifying ISTjs is an attitude balanced between "we can do it!" and "let's keep it calm folks". It's really one of the few types in the socion that strikes a balance between happy and subdued traits. This makes their attitude almost unique and very easy to identify.

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    Most of the LSIs I know are popular and well liked. And I'd always try to be friends with them too, and it never worked. Now, I am friendly but keep a bit of distance because I can see when I am irritating them. But they are generally pretty friendly and charming, IME. They do want things done in very specific ways. When I get into trouble with LSIs is when we have to do any kind of project together. It is often not too bad until something like that comes up.

    Catherine Zeta Jones (Yes!)
    Richard Dreyfus
    Mark Wahlberg

    I'll try to think of more.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    ISTj is the type of which the view of people on this forum is the most skewed. It is the type that gets the worst treatment where negative stereotypes are concerned.
    Uh-huh. You'd expect to see an angry, strict guy when you watch Dr. Phil, but instead you see someone who's got things under control, is not afraid of being categorical (without getting angry), and seems to have a bit of trouble expressing himself fully.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Dr Phil is hilarious.


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    omg that efg picture made me lmao.
    The end is nigh

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    omg that efg picture made me lmao.
    FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU--

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    ISTj is the type of which the view of people on this forum is the most skewed. It is the type that gets the worst treatment where negative stereotypes are concerned.

    One stereotype about ISTjs that I think is baseless, is the claim that they are inflexible. I find ISTjs generally to be more socially and mentally flexible than most Te types. ISTj isn't really a harsh or difficult to get along with type. They're a little rough in their behavior, that is all.

    Examples of what I think are typical ISTjs:

    Phil Mc. Graw
    Phil McGraw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Terry Gene Bollea (Hulk Hogan)
    Hulk Hogan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Paul Teutul Senior (American Chopper)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Teutul,_Sr.
    Peter R. de Vries
    peter r de vries - Google Afbeeldingen

    Gordon Ramsey is an example of what an ISTj is NOT. He is an ExTj.

    The main thing that I look for when identifying ISTjs is an attitude balanced between "we can do it!" and "let's keep it calm folks". It's really one of the few types in the socion that strikes a balance between happy and subdued traits. This makes their attitude almost unique and very easy to identify.
    Just for the record, according to threads on this forum:
    Paul Teutul Sr = ESTj (but I can see how ISTj would work)
    Gordon Ramsey = ENFj

    Though to get on topic, it's true that ISTj's can be really cool people. My best friend is ISTj-Ti and I've never got troubles with him. But the Se subtypes can be stubborn and conflict seeking when it comes to how things should be done, and that makes them unpopular IME.

    btw, have you got an idea which subtype dr phil is? I'm curious...

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    There is this one LSI who is among the circle of moms I hang out with. We all were getting together at the library once a week, and she and I were two of the only one who went from our group really regularly. And our kids played together, and would play with all the other kids at the library, and there were always lots of other kids.

    So there were a few times I was unable to go. Once, she asked me if I would be there the following week, and I said, "I plan to."

    She apparently interpreted that as that I would absolutely go. But I wasn't able to, and then a few days later I heard her say to a friend that she wasn't going to go to the library anymore because, "It is difficult to plan adequately when people say they will be there and don't show up." Or something to that effect.

    Anyway, she's very popular in this group and everyone loves her. She can be very kind and all that, but MAN does she have some firm expectations. Don't be late, if you're bringing fruit for a snack to share it had better be organic, etc.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    lmao Dr. Phil is a douchebag. He's entertaining though, I'll give him that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    There is this one LSI who is among the circle of moms I hang out with. We all were getting together at the library once a week, and she and I were two of the only one who went from our group really regularly. And our kids played together, and would play with all the other kids at the library, and there were always lots of other kids.

    So there were a few times I was unable to go. Once, she asked me if I would be there the following week, and I said, "I plan to."

    She apparently interpreted that as that I would absolutely go. But I wasn't able to, and then a few days later I heard her say to a friend that she wasn't going to go to the library anymore because, "It is difficult to plan adequately when people say they will be there and don't show up." Or something to that effect.

    Anyway, she's very popular in this group and everyone loves her. She can be very kind and all that, but MAN does she have some firm expectations. Don't be late, if you're bringing fruit for a snack to share it had better be organic, etc.
    Yeah, when I'm not 100 percent on something, I make a point to tell my ISTj friend very clearly that's it's still unsure -- where as w/ others I might say something like "sure, I'll try to make it (which could really mean anything).

    This happened last week where she invited me to some events, but I wasn't sure if I could finish my work in time. So I said that by 4pm I'd text her w/ whether I could go. Worked perfectly as it didn't piss her off and also gave me the room to see what ended up happening.

    I guess, it comes down to giving them as much room to be planned out as I like to have to be undecided. You can actually plan out your periods of undecided time like in the above example and it really seems to work well.

    But I also don't see my ISTjs friends a whole lot, and usually it's more of a quick social type event. So that seems to work well. Though I do feel judged by them sometimes, it's at least easy to anticipate exactly how we will clash, where as w/ ENFjs I'm in the dark about whatever drama between us is lurking and about to happen! (scary)
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    "It is difficult to plan adequately when people say they will be there and don't show up."

    Don't be late, if you're bringing fruit for a snack to share it had better be organic, etc.
    These are nearly exact quotations of the LSI's that I know!

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    Dr. Phil is a fucking twat, a walking pile of steaming shit. He does not know the meaning of the word ethics.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    ISTj is the type of which the view of people on this forum is the most skewed. It is the type that gets the worst treatment where negative stereotypes are concerned.

    One stereotype about ISTjs that I think is baseless, is the claim that they are inflexible. I find ISTjs generally to be more socially and mentally flexible than most Te types. ISTj isn't really a harsh or difficult to get along with type. They're a little rough in their behavior, that is all.

    Examples of what I think are typical ISTjs:

    Phil Mc. Graw
    Phil McGraw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Terry Gene Bollea (Hulk Hogan)
    Hulk Hogan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Paul Teutul Senior (American Chopper)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Teutul,_Sr.
    Peter R. de Vries
    peter r de vries - Google Afbeeldingen

    Gordon Ramsey is an example of what an ISTj is NOT. He is an ExTj.

    The main thing that I look for when identifying ISTjs is an attitude balanced between "we can do it!" and "let's keep it calm folks". It's really one of the few types in the socion that strikes a balance between happy and subdued traits. This makes their attitude almost unique and very easy to identify.
    Good stuff, but what about the idea that actions must be subordinated to a predefined system..... is that true of LSI? I mean if it is, I don't think thats a horrible thing.

    I think most of the negativity concerning this is that people fear the LSI will want to make them subordinated their actions to a predefined system. Whereas I think the LSI is more concerned with just subordinating their own actions. I don't think they generally like to take up the role of telling others how to behave, they just care about being dependable and structured. I think possibly the LSE may better fit the role for telling others what they should or shouldn't be doing.

    In some situations though I think the LSI would tell others what to do.... and that would be when they feel linked to another person... like a coworker they are working with or a friend or member of their family, then since the other person's actions effect them they would wish to have their action subordinated to a system for structure and predictability. In other words the LSI doesn't tell people what to do for power, they do it because they need to feel their is a system, some order, or a plan to feel unanxious about how things are going to end up.

    As far as strangers go, I think LSI's don't exert themselves to tell them how to live their lifes.... I think the LSI more looks at their unorderly life style with confusion, like "how do they expect to get through life without some structure?"

  20. #20
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    Would you say that the interrogater from this is an LSI?



    Its from the movie "The lives of others"

    The Lives of Others - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    No, just a Nazi.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    K on this one I must side with slacker mom, and its nothing personal, its completely on the terms of my understanding.......

    I think you all are getting too deep into the details about the theoretical aspects to see the overall concept.

    So I'd like to address 2 things......

    1) Someone said that the LSI aren't nessicarily systematic...... I think differently.... based on just common sense I know that there are people out there in two categories..... Systematic People and Unsystematic People..... once that has been established its only a question of how that observation coresponds to socionics.... I think its a plausable start to consider to be the source for systematic personality types from a jungian function perspective.... from a dictomy perspective I'd say Rational > Irrational is the key for systematic..... from this it would seem to imply LII and LSI are both systematic personality types, with different styles of "Systematic" behavior.

    If you disagree I'd be interested in hearing how you think systematic behavior coresponds to jungian functions, dictomies, or which socionics type is most likely to exhibit this behavior... anyone can claim another person to be wrong, but it take some intelligence to disprove another.

    2) I've noticed that among everyone on here there is no unified concept of what the jungian functions are, and I think that leads to mass confusion.... everyone can't be right, so alot of people out here on these boards basically have no idea what they are talking about and as much confusion is being spread as actual understanding imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Good stuff, but what about the idea that actions must be subordinated to a predefined system..... is that true of LSI? I mean if it is, I don't think thats a horrible thing.

    I think most of the negativity concerning this is that people fear the LSI will want to make them subordinated their actions to a predefined system. Whereas I think the LSI is more concerned with just subordinating their own actions. I don't think they generally like to take up the role of telling others how to behave, they just care about being dependable and structured. I think possibly the LSE may better fit the role for telling others what they should or shouldn't be doing.

    In some situations though I think the LSI would tell others what to do.... and that would be when they feel linked to another person... like a coworker they are working with or a friend or member of their family, then since the other person's actions effect them they would wish to have their action subordinated to a system for structure and predictability. In other words the LSI doesn't tell people what to do for power, they do it because they need to feel their is a system, some order, or a plan to feel unanxious about how things are going to end up.

    As far as strangers go, I think LSI's don't exert themselves to tell them how to live their lifes.... I think the LSI more looks at their unorderly life style with confusion, like "how do they expect to get through life without some structure?"
    I don't really think ISTjs have like a "system." They have specific ways of doing things, that are defined by common sense and individualism, but I don't see an organized system with rules and codes being used to implement these natural tendencies. There is no real strongly objective management factor. They very much depend on their Se to determine what is going to work in the moment, which is a part of their adaptability and acquiescence. The reasoning could be different later. Sure they like to have guidelines and values to make them look responsible, but these are mainly fake, just for show, just to get people's attention so they treat them seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    I don't really think ISTjs have like a "system." They have specific ways of doing things, that are defined by common sense and individualism, but I don't see an organized system with rules and codes being used to implement these natural tendencies. There is no real strongly objective management factor. They very much depend on their Se to determine what is going to work in the moment, which is a part of their adaptability and acquiescence. The reasoning could be different later. Sure they like to have guidelines and values to make them look responsible, but these are mainly fake, just for show, just to get people's attention so they treat them seriously.
    Huh? Are we talking about the same LSIs?

    Introverted logic - Wikisocion
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    Huh? Are we talking about the same LSIs?

    Introverted logic - Wikisocion
    Yeah, most of that is crap. It's really trying to describe an introverted function with those terms? In addition, I see bouts of Si, Te and small bits other functions tied into that. I mean, I can see how an LSI would do some of these things, but it's not a Ti description.

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    Just some random thoughts on ISTjs. This is how I see them. If my impression of them is incorrect labcoat will hopefully correct me.

    ISTjs operate based on certain certainty of how things work. Call it a system if you want. Now this doesn't have to mean that things really work that way, it's just that they perceive it to be so, they perceive it as a certainty. When you perceive something as certain that generally gives you a power to act on that "certainty" because what is certain cannot fail, you cannot be deceived, it's how things are, "i'm telling it how it is".

    From this source stems the confidence which is the trademark of ISTjs. Upon encountering a random situation they revisit their "system" of how things work and then act based on their system. The action is motivated with a "payoff". This is generally true for every homo sapiens - you act to get something, payoff that is(another Dr. Phil phrase). Now what is interesting regarding ISTjs is that they generally don't want megalomaniac payoffs(as opposed to some other types). It's more like demonstration of power for the sake of it. I can do this so I might as well do it. So an ISTj moves throughout life encountering his/her life situations and acting out of his/her system, not necessarily interested in some distant, megalomaniac goal. I believe this is how the Tactic dichotomy works for ISTjs.

    Their system is kinda sacred for them which is completely understandable because when something gives you a confidence it should be considered sacred. ISTjs enjoy in reflecting on the system- I've read somewhere that ISTjs are not very fond of reading but that they're very fond of reflecting - it is the system that is being reflected.

    Subtype difference is that -Ti is more focused on the reflection of system while -Se is more focused on the system-based action itself. (Btw..I don't think that subtypes are set in stone).

    The question is: how did I realized all of this. The answer is: based on very personal experience, october 2008, me being the ISTj, that is. Yeah, Smilexian Socionics, type change, oh God, blah blah blah... Of course, all of this is IME true for all REAL-TRUE-ISTjs.

    However, there are some ISTj-issues which are undeniably existant but not so clear to me. For example: stereotypical ISTj blind adherence to hierarchical organizations such as military, police, church, etc. I'm not sure what's the source of the phenomena but here's the attempt of explanation. These hierarchies are very much ISTj-like, that meaning that they're based on a system and their interaction with the world of objects is system-dependent. This is something which should make some ISTj's-ring bell. But for an ISTj to be an adherent of a hierarchy what is required is that the hierarchy must fit into ISTj's very own personal system,that is, that the hierarchy is in accordance with ISTj's belief system and that the hierarchy's methods are acceptable for an ISTj. When that happens, the tipping point is crossed and the ISTj is converted, questioning pretty much nothing, working in hierarchy's service using his personal methods of action. That's what makes ISTjs excelent executives and routine followers. That is IMO HA-TO-BELIEVE in action. To believe in a system, whether personal or communal. This explanation is, again, based on my personal experience of being a Smilingeyes-ISTj.

    I've recently tried to create a little hierarchy follower inside myself. Hierarchy being an INTj, that is, me. The follower being an ISTj, that is, me, working on INTj's goals using his ISTj-methods, questioning pretty much nothing, just doing what INTj tells him to do. More on this here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/549381-post21.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    ISTj is the type of which the view of people on this forum is the most skewed. It is the type that gets the worst treatment where negative stereotypes are concerned.

    One stereotype about ISTjs that I think is baseless, is the claim that they are inflexible. I find ISTjs generally to be more socially and mentally flexible than most Te types. ISTj isn't really a harsh or difficult to get along with type. They're a little rough in their behavior, that is all.

    Examples of what I think are typical ISTjs:

    Phil Mc. Graw
    Phil McGraw - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Terry Gene Bollea (Hulk Hogan)
    Hulk Hogan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Paul Teutul Senior (American Chopper)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Teutul,_Sr.
    Peter R. de Vries
    peter r de vries - Google Afbeeldingen

    Gordon Ramsey is an example of what an ISTj is NOT. He is an ExTj.

    The main thing that I look for when identifying ISTjs is an attitude balanced between "we can do it!" and "let's keep it calm folks". It's really one of the few types in the socion that strikes a balance between happy and subdued traits. This makes their attitude almost unique and very easy to identify.
    I agree. ISTjs are quite flexible, adaptable, and rather non-stubborn in situations, despite being an overall thoughtful, meticulous, and perfectionistic creature. INTjs don't hold up to this specific level of care towards flexibility. Hospitality can tend to wear off at limits, such as when requiring daily reserve and personal space.

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