Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 69

Thread: Tolkien and Middle Earth

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,407
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Tolkien and Middle Earth

    This is a spin-off thread from the Alphas in Fiction thread, that was getting too bogged down in debating Middle Earth typing. This is a thread for discussing the types of J.R.R. Tolkien, and the types for the assorted characters of Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, The Lost Tales, and other works.

    To start us off (or return us to the point of origin): What type was Gandalf?
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  2. #2
    Darn Socks DirectorAbbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    7,123
    Mentioned
    381 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well, I've always sort associated Gandalf with Brilliand. Gandalf is certainly a triangle and a square, leaving only four options: ILI, LII, LIE, and ILE. I'd personally lean more toward alpha and introvert, but I also think he has a better black circle than an LII would have.

    LSE
    1-6-2 so/sx
    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  3. #3
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Canada's Prairie Farmland
    TIM
    C-LII
    Posts
    2,608
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah, I've read all the arguments in the other thread, and I keep coming back to the conclusion that Gandalf is LII. A confident, mature LII, certainly, with a well-developed super-ego, but LII nonetheless. It's been a long time since I've read the books (I mean to do so again at some point), but in the movies Gandalf seems strongly LII to me. He seems to value Fe -- for example, his merry chuckle in the scene when he sets off the fireworks in the cart for the little hobbit children. He strongly seems to value Si -- relaxing and smoking Old Toby with Bilbo, his love of the Shire in general. And the way he became curious about the true nature of Bilbo's little magic ring and went off and researched it (no Internet back then, so he had to ride all the way to Gondor) struck a chord with me, as that's how my Ti manifests as well (become curious about true nature of thing --> do hours of research until thing is figured out). Gandalf can be a little more gruff and harsh than I am, but I would tend to chalk that up to a subtype difference.

    I think one of the major themes of the book (whether or not to use the Ring) is essentially Tolkien's way of portraying the conflict between Ti and Te, with Tolkien advocating Ti. Gandalf, as Tolkien's authorial voice, presents a logical case for not using the Ring, based on static concerns: it is evil and you are weak, and it will corrupt you in the end. Boromir presents the Te point of view: practical necessities require us to use this source of power; we can worry about philosophy later. As far as Gandalf is concerned, the shifting practical concerns of dynamic Te are not as important as the static, unchanging realities of Ti. As far as Boromir is concerned, the moldy old static, theoretical concerns of Ti are all but irrelevant; if the real-life practical Te challenges and dangers are not met, the free peoples of Middle-Earth will all be destroyed anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Bilbo Baggins (ISFp?) was ostracized in the shire for being adventurous. How is that consistent with the place being alpha?
    I agree, as ArchonAlarion said, the Shire is Delta Heaven, but it is Delta Heaven as portrayed by an Alpha.
    Quaero Veritas.

  4. #4
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,685
    Mentioned
    95 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'd go with ILE-Ti over LII for Gandalf: he's a wanderer, no real affiliations, but with an obvious love for the quaint naivete of hobbits, who, as a race, are quite clearly Si/Ne and probably Delta. Some of the hobbits (archetypally Delta rational) say he is a "queer fellow" and dislike his seeming unpredictability and mysteriousness, but others (archetypally Delta irrational) enjoy his company and see him as an intruiging and fun visitor.

    I think Frodo is IEE and Sam is SLI. Bilbo is probably SEI. Merry and Pippin are probably an Alpha Extrovert pair. Boromir was probably SLE. Aragorn is a pretty clear EIE. Faramir is probably IEI. The elves are generally Beta/Gamma; I would say Galadriel is ESI, Elrond probably LSI.

    As for the Silmarillion, I think a few typings go almost without saying:

    Feanor: SLE
    Fingolfin: EIE (<3 favorite Tolkien character for sure)
    Finarfin: IEI
    Manwe: LSE
    Mandos: ILI
    Turin: SLE
    Niniel: IEI
    Thingol: ESI
    Ingwe: LSE


    Races

    Noldor: Beta
    Teleri: Alpha
    Vanyar: Delta

    Others I'm not entirely sure on:

    Finwe: ESE
    Fingon: SEE
    Maedhros: EIE
    Caranthir: IEI
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  5. #5
    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Canada's Prairie Farmland
    TIM
    C-LII
    Posts
    2,608
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Actually, I was just thinking that ILE-Ti might be a good fit for Gandalf, when I was writing my first post in this thread. It would account for much of his harshness (1-dimensional Fi, 2-dimensional Fe, resulting in less compunction about expressing anger). I also like your analysis of the types of the hobbits and their relationships to Gandalf, it seems accurate to me.

    I really need to read the books again...
    Quaero Veritas.

  6. #6
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    TIM
    Yet to be determined
    Posts
    4,411
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I'd go with ILE-Ti over LII for Gandalf: he's a wanderer, no real affiliations, but with an obvious love for the quaint naivete of hobbits, who, as a race, are quite clearly Si/Ne and probably Delta. Some of the hobbits (archetypally Delta rational) say he is a "queer fellow" and dislike his seeming unpredictability and mysteriousness, but others (archetypally Delta irrational) enjoy his company and see him as an intruiging and fun visitor.

    I think Frodo is IEE and Sam is SLI. Bilbo is probably SEI. Merry and Pippin are probably an Alpha Extrovert pair. Boromir was probably SLE. Aragorn is a pretty clear EIE. Faramir is probably IEI. The elves are generally Beta/Gamma; I would say Galadriel is ESI, Elrond probably LSI.

    As for the Silmarillion, I think a few typings go almost without saying:

    Feanor: SLE
    Fingolfin: EIE (<3 favorite Tolkien character for sure)
    Finarfin: IEI
    Manwe: LSE
    Mandos: ILI
    Turin: SLE
    Niniel: IEI
    Thingol: ESI
    Ingwe: LSE


    Races

    Noldor: Beta
    Teleri: Alpha
    Vanyar: Delta

    Others I'm not entirely sure on:

    Finwe: ESE
    Fingon: SEE
    Maedhros: EIE
    Caranthir: IEI
    I like these.

    But what about Illuvatar and Melkor! Illuvatar is kinda untypable, although I'd lean to Ne/Si, preferably Alpha. Melkor I can see as rational maybe ENXj.
    The end is nigh

  7. #7
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,685
    Mentioned
    95 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Melkor just wants to create chaos to fly in the face of everyone else and flaunt his superiority. Beta, some irrational subtype something. EIE is probably the closest approximation.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  8. #8
    Darn Socks DirectorAbbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    7,123
    Mentioned
    381 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Gandalf=LII

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I think Frodo is IEE and Sam is SLI. Bilbo is probably SEI. Merry and Pippin are probably an Alpha Extrovert pair. Boromir was probably SLE. Aragorn is a pretty clear EIE. Faramir is probably IEI. The elves are generally Beta/Gamma; I would say Galadriel is ESI, Elrond probably LSI.
    I never would have considered IEE for Frodo. He's too subdued and too practical. IEE is out of the question. Sam is definitely a caregiver, but he doesn't strike me as an SLI. SEI and LSE are more likely. SEI for Bilbo sounds fine to me. Pippin is sillier than Merry; it may be an I/S difference or an E/L difference. SLE for Boromir sounds good to me. I never cared much for him (or for Frodo). I don't know Aragorn well.

    LSE
    1-6-2 so/sx
    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  9. #9
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,685
    Mentioned
    95 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    lmfao @ Frodo as LSE.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  10. #10
    Darn Socks DirectorAbbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    7,123
    Mentioned
    381 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    the Shire is Delta Heaven
    Yeah, I would LOVE to live in a hobbit hole.

    LSE
    1-6-2 so/sx
    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  11. #11
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    "Come with me if you want to live"
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,907
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Yeah, I would LOVE to live in a hobbit hole.
    Initial reaction: Noooo waayy. too cut off from the world
    Second thought: Ehhhhh maybe.

    If everyone else was delta, that might be nice.

  12. #12
    Angel of Lightning Brilliand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Utah
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    4,235
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu View Post
    Initial reaction: Noooo waayy. too cut off from the world
    Second thought: Ehhhhh maybe.

    If everyone else was delta, that might be nice.
    Thing is, it's a hobbit-hole in a city of hobbit-holes with plenty of hospitality. Not sure I'd call that "cut off from the world"...



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

  13. #13
    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,296
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well the book seems to be all about power and ring seems to represent how power corrupts those who seek it. Frodo is suited for his journey because even though he carries that burden of power, he does not let it consume him. Throughout the book and the movie he constantly is struggling against the ring, but that struggle is purely internal. He his enneagram 9, that much is obvious, but what are his strengths? He doesn't really seem to have any, all he does is carry the ring. He doesn't really seem to have anything spectacular going on. How does he make it to mount doom? He hides, he runs, he knows when he's caught, he never tricks anyone, he's about as pure and innocent as they come, but he always has that weight dragging on him.

    Remember when he tries to sneak out of the camp to make the journey on his own? Sam comes running after him. Sam is always shoving food in his face too, trying to get him to eat. In the books, as they are at the foot of mount doom, Frodo collapses and can't go any further. Sam somehow forgets his own fatigue and carries him practically half way up the mountain. Sam's unwavering loyalty makes the journey possible, and he is always suspicious of Gollum/Smeagol. Sam always has a positive outlook too. He's always talking about the trip home, but Frodo knows that wont be possible. Frodo doesn't exactly have a positive outlook, but he internalizes all the negative thoughts and/or ignores them. Anyway, Ej is fairly apparent with Sam because he's the one managing the trip, going out and finding food, fighting off Smeagol, doing everything. But he always turns to Frodo for guidance. Frodo always has the final say. Frodo ultimately decides everyone's fate.

    I think typing Frodo and Sam is difficult because of biases in the Socionic profiles for LII (scholarly 5s) and ESE (helping 2s), but looking at the story a little more closely reveals it. If you want to get into E types too (something I've been doing more recently) then Sam is probably 6w7 and Frodo 9w1. No personality profiles can reconcile the LII 9w1. All 9w1s are automatically given ethical types. ESE 6w7 is less of a stretch, but it's not that apparent either. 6w7 does not come to mind when I read ESE profiles.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    moon
    Posts
    4,848
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I do think gandalf is INTj-Ti. The Silmarillion is an interesting book. The world starts from one, ends up being split into 16. You can correlate the 16 'gods' in the book with the 16 types quite accurately. Melkor I gathered was INFp. Manwe I thought was INTj. Melkor ends up being the archetype of satan. That was sort of interesting. Tolkein seems vaguely Delta to me in many ways. I have to question whether he used some fundamental logical system to create his 16 types which may correspond with the 16 types.
    in the movie frodo seems ISFj and sam seems ESFj / ESFx.

  15. #15
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,685
    Mentioned
    95 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sam as ESE? I mean, stereotypical caregiver, indeed. But Fe dominant? EJ temperament? Get real.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  16. #16
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,685
    Mentioned
    95 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    FWIW I think Gandalf in the movie is depicted rather IJ-ish, perhaps even LSI (Ian McKellen is probably LII). But his character as a whole, as depicted by Tolkien, is very archetypally EP temperament.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  17. #17
    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,296
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Sam as ESE? I mean, stereotypical caregiver, indeed. But Fe dominant? EJ temperament? Get real.
    It's certainly a better fit than SLI.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

  18. #18
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,685
    Mentioned
    95 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It most certainly is not. Do you know any ESEs?

    I suppose Sam could be ESI, but ESE is absolutely laughable.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  19. #19
    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,296
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It most certainly is not. Do you know any ESEs?

    I suppose Sam could be ESI, but ESE is absolutely laughable.
    Apparently you can't stop laughing long enough to give an explanation. Does loyalty and ESEs not go together? I've given my reasons, the least you can do is have the courtesy to give me yours.
    ESI is probably a better fit than SLI, but then he wouldn't be a caregiver, and Sam is the ultimate caregiver.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

  20. #20

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    13,331
    Mentioned
    1265 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Morgoth - ESTP

  21. #21
    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,296
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm thinking Sarumon could be some kind of Ej. His character is defined by his attraction to power, it's why he aligned himself with Sauron, but once he loses the palantir and he locks himself in his tower, he's made to look weak and powerless. In the books, after the ring is destroyed, he tries to take over The Shire with a bunch of half orc bandits, but Frodo and the other 3 hobbits organize a sort of rebellion. It's like Sarumon can't not try to gain some kind of influence. Actually he meets a similar demise as the Emperor from Star Wars. Probably LIE.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

  22. #22
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,685
    Mentioned
    95 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    As for the 16 gods actually being well divided within 16 types, I think that's a bit ridiculous; it's too easy. Your Ti HA is showing, crazedrat
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  23. #23
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,685
    Mentioned
    95 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Aragorn has to be some 3w4, maybe EIE-Ni.

    "I give hope to men; I keep none for myself."
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    moon
    Posts
    4,848
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    As for the 16 gods actually being well divided within 16 types, I think that's a bit ridiculous; it's too easy. Your Ti HA is showing, crazedrat
    go read the book again. the correlation was obvious to me and surprised me when i read it. i thought surely tolken used some type of metaphysics to construct his 'gods'. that is my explanation for the perfect correlation. i acknowledge such clear correlations are rare, which is why i considered it worth mentioning at all.
    Aragorn seems INFj-Fi.

  25. #25
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,685
    Mentioned
    95 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Aragorn is EII? You're fucking nuts. And I've read the Silmarillion more times than you've touched your pubescent prick, so don't feign condescension and abandon your hopelessly idealistic notion of everything fitting together seemlessly.

    As for Sam as not ESE, I'm sorry, it's just so obvious to me that I can hardly begin to put it into words. Do you know any ESEs? And what does loyalty have to do with it? Your projection of the objections you assume I must have is, to me, only blatant proof that you doubt your own assertions.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  26. #26
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    moon
    Posts
    4,848
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    you see animosity where there is none. so you make a habit of reading the silmarillion over and over again. i guess you win. now go away

  27. #27
    constant change electric sheep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,296
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    As for Sam as not ESE, I'm sorry, it's just so obvious to me that I can hardly begin to put it into words. Do you know any ESEs? And what does loyalty have to do with it? Your projection of the objections you assume I must have is, to me, only blatant proof that you doubt your own assertions.
    So you've acknowledged ESI as a possibility, does that mean you're retracting your own suggestion of SLI? Does that mean you've settled on ESI? The non caregiver? Is it because Sam doesn't greet Gollum with smiles and sunshine? I'm just trying to figure out why you don't think he is an ESE, so I'm asking you. Unlike you, who is blatantly trying to cover up a lack of rationale by projecting doubt on to me.
    The saddest ESFj

    ...

  28. #28
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,407
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    go read the book again. the correlation was obvious to me and surprised me when i read it. i thought surely tolken used some type of metaphysics to construct his 'gods'. that is my explanation for the perfect correlation. i acknowledge such clear correlations are rare, which is why i considered it worth mentioning at all.
    Aragorn seems INFj-Fi.
    Would you mind expanding out the gods and their types more fully?
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  29. #29
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    TIM
    Yet to be determined
    Posts
    4,411
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    I do think gandalf is INTj-Ti. The Silmarillion is an interesting book. The world starts from one, ends up being split into 16. You can correlate the 16 'gods' in the book with the 16 types quite accurately. Melkor I gathered was INFp. Manwe I thought was INTj. Melkor ends up being the archetype of satan. That was sort of interesting. Tolkein seems vaguely Delta to me in many ways. I have to question whether he used some fundamental logical system to create his 16 types which may correspond with the 16 types.
    in the movie frodo seems ISFj and sam seems ESFj / ESFx.
    Ooh I had passed over this.

    Yeah I think Satan/Lucifer was SLE/IEI and had considered Melkor as such. I think I'll type Melkor as ESTp, which makes sense if Manwe is LSE (zeus figure... wtf did I say Gilly??) and Varda is EII

    Sam is Si ISTp imo. Colloquial mother fucker who gardens. Basically my dad.

    Frodo in the books... yeah fuck, IEE. Agrizzle with teh Gilly.

    Gandalf as Ti ILE makes my dick feel bigger and i liek. Also, there is the whole me aspiring to be a Gandalf-like figure since I could crap in the toilet.



    Here's a summary of the 15 Valar from wikipedia for typing inspiration (Note, I have read the silmarillion and other non-Tolkein material on Arda so this is from what i remember about them)...

    List of the Valar
    These are the names and attributes of the chief Valar as they were known to the Eldar in Aman. In Middle-earth, they were known by other names of Sindarin origin; Varda, for example, was called Elbereth. Men knew them by many other names, and sometimes worshipped them as gods. With the exception of Oromë, the names listed below are not actual names but rather titles: the true names of the Valar are nowhere recorded. The males are called "Lords of the Valar"; the females "Queens of the Valar," or Valier.

    The Aratar (Quenya: Exalted) or High Ones of Arda are the eight greatest of the Valar: Manwë, Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna, Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë. Lórien and Mandos are brothers and are referred to collectively as the Fëanturi or "Masters of Spirits".


    Lords

    Manwë (LSE)
    He is the King of the Valar, husband of Varda Elentári and King of Arda. He lived atop Mount Taniquetil, the highest mountain of the world, in the halls of Ilmarin. The winds and airs were his servants, and he was lord of air, wind, and clouds in Arda. He was the noblest and greatest in authority, but not in power, of the Aratar and Ainur.

    Ulmo (Te/Fi?)
    Lord of Waters. Unlike the other Valar, he was not married and had no fixed dwelling place. He lived in the deep waters of the ocean, and seldom troubled to come to the Ring of Doom unless the need was dire. Ulmo was one of the chief architects of Arda. In power he was second to Manwë.

    Aulë (I'm kinda feeling ILE, but maybe SLI if ya wanna be stereotypical)
    Aulë is given lordship over the matter that composes Arda and is a master of all the crafts that shape it. He created the Dwarves, who call him Mahal, the Maker. During the Music of the Ainur, Aulë's themes concerned the physical things of which Arda is made; when Ilúvatar (God) gave being to the themes of the Ainur, his music became the lands of Middle-earth. Other of his works include Angainor (the chain of Melkor), the Two Lamps and the vessels of the Sun and Moon.

    Oromë (Gamma)
    Brother of Nessa and husband of Vána, also known as Araw in Sindarin, Aldaron ("Lord of the Trees"), Arum, Béma, Arāmē, The Huntsman of the Valar, and The Great Rider. During the Years of the Trees, after most of the Valar had withdrawn completely from Middle-earth and hidden themselves in Aman, Oromë still hunted in the forests of Middle-earth on occasion. Thus, he was responsible for first finding the Elves at Cuiviénen.
    Being a powerful huntsman, he was active in the struggles against Morgoth, and was renowned for his anger, being the most terrible of the Valar in his wrath. He has a great horn called Valaróma and a great steed called Nahar. In "The Book of Lost Tales", there is the sentence "There sang Amillo joyously to his playing, Amillo who is named Omar, whose voice is the best of all voices, who knoweth all songs in all speeches; but whiles if he sang not to his brothers harp then would he be trilling in the gardens of Oromë when after a time Nielíqui, little maiden, danced about its woods." It is mentioned in the Appendix on Names that Nielíqui is the daughter of Oromë and Vána.

    Mandos (possibly ILI)
    Judge of the Dead and the Master of Doom. Originally named Námo, but referred to more commonly as Mandos, after the Halls of his dwelling. Chief advisor to Manwë and keeper of the souls of elves. He is the husband of Vairë the Weaver. Mandos is described as being stern and dispassionate and never forgetting a thing.
    He was the Vala who cursed the Noldor leaving Aman, and counselled against allowing them to return. But unlike Morgoth, his Dooms are not cruel or vindictive by his own design. They are simply the will of Eru, and he will not speak them unless he is commanded to do so by Manwë. Only once has he been moved to pity, when Lúthien sang of the grief she and her lover Beren had experienced in Beleriand.

    Lórien (Ni ego?)
    Master of Visions and Dreams. Originally named Irmo, but referred to more commonly as Lórien, after his dwelling place. Lórien and Mandos are the Fëanturi, masters of spirits. Lórien, the younger, is the master of visions and dreams. His gardens in the land of the Valar, where he dwells with his spouse Estë, are the fairest place in the world and are filled with many spirits. All those who dwell in Valinor find rest and refreshment at the fountain of Irmo and Estë.

    Tulkas (SLI, SEE, ESI, LIE)
    The Strong, Champion of Valinor, also called Astaldo. He was the last of the Valar to descend into Arda, and helped to tip the scales against Melkor after the destruction of the Two Lamps. He is a wrestler and physically the strongest of all the Valar. He is the husband of Nessa, and is described as slow to anger, but slow also to forget; as such, he opposed the release of Melkor after his prison sentence.

    Queens

    Varda (EII)
    Queen of the Stars, spouse of Manwë, entitled Elentári in Quenya and Elbereth Gilthoniel in Sindarin. She kindled the first stars before the Ainur descended into the world, and later brightened them with the gold and silver dew from the Two Trees. Melkor feared and hated her the most, because she rejected him before Time.

    Yavanna (I really wanna say SEI, but possibly IEE)
    Queen of the Earth and Giver of Fruits, spouse of Aulë, also called Kementári. She created the Two Trees, and is responsible for the Olvar and Kelvar (plants and animals). It was she who requested the creation of the Ents, as she feared for the safety of the trees once her husband had created the Dwarves. The Two Lamps are created by Aulë at Yavanna's request, and their light germinates the seeds that she had planted. Following the destruction of the Two Lamps by Melkor and the withdrawal of the Valar to Aman, Yavanna sang into being the Two Trees of Valinor.

    Nienna (Beta or Gamma)
    Lady of Mercy. She was the tutor of Olórin, and weeps constantly. However, her tears are those of healing and pity, not of sadness, and often have potency; for example, she watered the Two Trees with her tears, and later washed the filth of Ungoliant away from them once they were destroyed. She was in favour of releasing Melkor after his sentence, not being able to see his evil nature. She has no spouse.

    Estë
    Referred to as the Gentle and "the healer of hurts and of weariness". Her name means Rest. "Grey is her raiment, and rest her gift." She is the wife of Irmo, and lives with him in his Gardens of Lórien in Valinor. She sleeps at day on the island in the Lake Lorellin.

    Vairë
    Entitled the Weaver. She is espoused to Namo, and lives with him at Mandos. She weaves the story of the World in her tapestries, which are draped all over the halls of Mandos.

    Vána (hmm maybe Alpha SF or Delta NF)
    Called Queen of Blossoming Flowers and the Ever-young. She is the younger sister of Yavanna and wife of Oromë. "All flowers spring as she passes and open if she glances upon them; and all birds sing at her coming." She dwells in gardens filled with golden flowers and often comes to the forests of Oromë. Tolkien wrote about Vána that she was "the most perfectly 'beautiful' in form and feature (also 'holy' but not august or sublime), representing the natural unmarred perfection of form in living things".[1]

    Nessa (SEE?)
    Entitled the Dancer. She is the wife of Tulkas and is noted for her agility and speed, able to outrun the deer who follow her in the wild, and for her love of dancing on the ever-green lawns of Valinor.

    Others

    Melkor (SLE)
    The Dark Lord. His name means "he who arises in might" and he was the first of the Ainur to be created by Eru. In origin he was the spiritual brother of Manwë, and the most powerful of the Valar, as he possessed all aspects of Eru's thought, whereas all the others possessed only some. He turned to evil, and was taken back to Valinor in chains after the Awakening of the Elves, where he remained on parole for several Ages. But after the poisoning of the Two Trees and the theft of the Silmarils, he fled from Valinor. He was no longer counted among the number of the Valar, and Fëanor called him "Morgoth Bauglir", The Great Enemy, by which name he was known in Middle-earth ever after. He was cast out of Arda at the end of the War of Wrath.
    The end is nigh

  30. #30
    Darn Socks DirectorAbbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    7,123
    Mentioned
    381 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    AA, I hereby bestow your typing ability with my stamp of disapproval.

    LSE
    1-6-2 so/sx
    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  31. #31
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    TIM
    Yet to be determined
    Posts
    4,411
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    tbh I don't actually believe all my typings. In fact, none. They are vague fictional characters, which Im probably projecting on anyways. I just went with stereotypical bs for the most part or wishful thinking.

    While ur at it can you stamp my hand with a perty star?
    The end is nigh

  32. #32
    Darn Socks DirectorAbbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    7,123
    Mentioned
    381 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sorry, I don't have a star. I have an OFFICIAL stamp for my licenses and stamps for friend, foe, and acquaintance.

    *Stamps AA's hand with 'acquaintance'*


    I think Sam is an SEI. I'm gonna say Frodo is an IEI 'cause he's never interrested me, 'though I have no other reason to type him as such 'cause I don't pay mych attention to him. We agree that Gandalf is an LII, Boromir is an SLE, Aragorn is an EIE, and Bilbo is an SEI. How about Gimli, Legolas, and the Alpha hobbits?

    LSE
    1-6-2 so/sx
    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  33. #33
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    TIM
    Yet to be determined
    Posts
    4,411
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    so Frodo is ur dual, because he never interested you...

    wat.
    The end is nigh

  34. #34
    Marie84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    TIM
    EII
    Posts
    2,347
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I just remembered this conversation, haven't been on the computer much last week. Nice to see it was moved, here, I felt bad about helping the thread go off-topic

    Most of the characters in his books are not really conclusively any type, but there is enough to show a level of function strength and preference
    Anyways, my own feelings on the types, at least the ones that can be typed

    Gandalf- LIE
    Frodo- EII (his demeanor, expressions and timidity are identical to my own)
    Bilbo - IEE (the relationship between him and Frodo was rather accurate from a Socionics point of view. He is adventurous and spontaneous, whereas Frodo is more reserved and prefers familiarity)
    Sam- Si, but not really any type in particular
    Pippin- SEI
    Merry- ILE-ish
    Gimli- ESE
    Legolas- SLI-ish
    Aragorn- LSE (more so in the books)
    Arwen- EII (in the films, at least)
    Faramir- EII (not in the second film, which is more ESI-ish)
    Galadriel- ESI
    Éomer- SLE

    Interesting discussion on the Valar here, I can't see Manwe as an LSE, he's compassionate to the point of naivety and doesn't understand evil, LSE's are far more practical and suspicious about peoples intentions. Ulmo could be LSE-ish
    And Varda is too vengeful for EII, ESI possibly.
    In a Beta thread I posted Nienna as IEI, which is most likely
    Melkor as SLE is possible

    oh wow I'm such a nerd :frown:
    EII INFj
    Forum status: retired

  35. #35
    Darn Socks DirectorAbbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    7,123
    Mentioned
    381 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie84 View Post
    Gandalf- LIE
    Frodo- EII (his demeanor, expressions and timidity are identical to my own)
    Bilbo - IEE (the relationship between him and Frodo was rather accurate from a Socionics point of view. He is adventurous and spontaneous, whereas Frodo is more reserved and prefers familiarity)
    Sam- Si, but not really any type in particular
    Pippin- SEI
    Merry- ILE-ish
    Gimli- ESE
    Legolas- SLI-ish
    Aragorn- LSE (more so in the books)
    Arwen- EII (in the films, at least)
    Faramir- EII (not in the second film, which is more ESI-ish)
    Galadriel- ESI
    Éomer- SLE
    I could understand Gandalf as LIE, Frodo as EII, Bilbo as IEE, Pippin as SEI-Fe, Merry as ILE, Legolas as SLI, Aragorn as LSE, Faramir as EII, and Galadriel as ESI.

    Everyone agrees that Sam is a caregiver. We just have trouble pinpointing his type.
    Gimli could be an ESE, I suppose. I don't know many male ESEs to compare him with.
    I like the Aragorn in the books. I think he's an LSE and the actor is an EIE.
    Arwen is boring.
    I've always liked Faramir.
    If Eomer is an SLE, he'd probably be a Ti subtype, and Boromir would be an Se subtype.

    LSE
    1-6-2 so/sx
    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  36. #36
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    TIM
    Yet to be determined
    Posts
    4,411
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Viggo Mortensen is Ne INTj.




    hello niffweed!
    The end is nigh

  37. #37
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,418
    Mentioned
    34 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    What type was Gandalf?
    The most common typings are ILI and LII.

    I would go for LII.

  38. #38
    Darn Socks DirectorAbbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    7,123
    Mentioned
    381 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    The most common typings are ILI and LII.

    I would go for LII.
    So would I. LII seems the most likely. I don't see him as ILI. I can see him as LIE.

    LSE
    1-6-2 so/sx
    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  39. #39
    Kardashev Scale Blade Runner 2017 2049 Bunny Giordano Bruno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Macroverse MtBattle ScholarsGarden RealMadridLive SuperNexus InfinitiesUltimate AllSpectraEverywhere
    TIM
    WiredforBattleShingo
    Posts
    3,261
    Mentioned
    73 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Tolkien is very good for igniting a sense of awe or blessed dive into the heavenly whisper of the country rainbow, like a land of fun in the sun awaits your arrival for blowing out the birthday candles and opening the window to bright parties and celebration, kind of like how all of the characters (especially in the books) like singing and eating at buffet gatherings.

    Middle Earth seems about human liberty, human compassion, human endurance, and this fable of spirit has an archetype, Gandalf, where the story comes to life, and wisdom from the most eternal dragon-fire graces the wing's fringes.

    I think Gandalf was an INTJ. He was orderly, enforcing, mystical, giving people their free will and independence, had a deep understanding of human nature, and I even talked to Gandalf before, I man named Zang. Here's the axioms that I wrote from talking to him 8 years ago in 2013:


    1. We need to see things by asking questions. – This helps us to achieve an understanding.
    2. We are not in Heaven. – We have to work our way towards Heaven.
    3. Our honor must be at the divine level for us to be in Heaven. – Otherwise it would be destroyed by our corruption.
    4. We each have a life force. – Our energy incarnates into physical forms from the timeless world.
    5. Life is an everlasting progression. – Life progresses by triumphing over challenges (hell).
    6. This world is hell. – Hell teaches us lessons throughout many lifetimes.
    7. The material world exists at a low frequency (in reference to higher frequency realms). – We can rise to higher frequency realms as we gain more experience across the spectrum.
    8. We are spiritually evolving. – Our planet is presently at the edge of a spiritual shift, which will develop us for space exploration.
    9. I am that I am. – This character is the personal God of love.
    10. Love is the one force. – Everything is part of love, which makes things possible.
    11. How should we pray to God? – With the force and feeling of our true character.
    12. What can God give us? – The complete potential for an endless future.
    13. What should we ask for when we pray to God? – To expand our awareness and vision of things (like seeing dreams or revealing secrets).
    14. Belief is at the center of our being. – This force (love) can give us anything and point the way to everything.
    15. The power of belief can “create entities”. – Opinions spring from a growing pool and can form any substance, making all things (even mental constructs) in some sense a reality.
    16. Reality is countered by destructive forces. – They seek to bring things into the void.
    17. Existence began with a witness. – The witness made everything possible with the “word” (logos [reason]; the “codes” of creation).
    18. The first thing created was love (no thing). – From this came the limitless and the witness (the force of love), which gave shape to everything out of the formless void.
    19. Reason is driven by love (the good). – This shows us beauty, which is relative to how we see it.
    20. Creation has 3 points. – They are existence, structure, and direction.
    21. Space (structure) and time (direction) make up 5 dimensions. – This is because existence itself is a dimension.
    22. The higher dimensions of creation (above the basic 5) are metaphysical. – We are stuck in the effects and cannot (at the physical level of existence) see the cause of it all.
    23. Knowledge gives us greater freedom. – It is the driving force that empowers mental constructs, which gives birth to life and love.
    24. Intention is the fruit of life. – It is what we want and the cause that creates it.
    25. Perfection can be found by following God. – God is the transcendent cause of creation, the designer of this “existential game” that can maximize our attributes and “level us up”.
    26. The logos are the language of reality. – They are the digital characters of the matrix.
    27. We are all avatars of God. – We should let him guide our actions without resistance.
    28. We will triumph with God on our side. – He can create possibilities for anything.
    29. The system of reality is dynamic. – Everything is always growing from the immaterialness of nothing to become the synthesized complex of everything.
    30. Mind controls the movement of life. – It is the action that feeds all reactions.
    31. The divine mind (God) is connected to everyone. – We are each multifaceted prisms that reflect the light of God, eternally expressing himself through our own true characters.
    32. The pure forms of ideas constitute what is real. – They are the dreamed up images created by the divine mind.
    33. We cannot yet bear the sublime truth. – It would be unjust to reveal before our corrupted beings.
    34. Knowledge liberates our will. – We need an objective point, an external standard to give the will its freedom.
    35. Asking the “why” of the “will” connects it to knowledge. – It is our grasp of what we want.
    36. What should we do if we are everything? – We start by gazing upon the world; we make new laws and different manifest copies of ourselves to actualize the chronicles of history.
    37. Entities can help to realize the will of God. – We must take action for our will to be done.
    38. Many possible world models could have existed. – This world always existed, and it is continually moving through different dimensions.
    39. There is a war being waged within the divine order. – It has brought chaos to the timeless harmony of Heaven.
    40. We need a focus on hope. – We must know why we want things to be and have an outline with the steps of action to realize the plan.
    41. We should ask what is right before commanding. – As the moral arbiters of things, we need to see the good and decide accordingly.
    42. Things change when thought of differently. – The right clarity of thought expands reality.
    43. The divine can be seen in the mundane. – It can connect us to real esoteric truth.
    44. Asking for the why can give us the power to do anything. – It gives us the directional will to create what could be, to focus and unleash our energies charged from within.
    45. Why something will be is immaterial. – The something (an immanent creation) starts within the same plane as the immaterial (the sea of chaos), tamed and shaped by free will.
    46. Society must be broken and revolutionized. – The system could be destroyed and redesigned from within.
    47. We need a blueprint to start society anew. – It should be a dynamic and large scale model, where every part of the societal machine interconnects together in perfect unison.
    48. Power must justify itself. – People in power must serve the subjects.
    49. An entity must be able to mentally construct creations to be alive. – This is power of will.
    50. We need a bridge to get where we want to go. – Looking up is easier than flying.
    https://sabrinacasey.webstarts.com/9systemswishes
    https://sabrinacasey.webstarts.com/evolvedraichu
    Pokemon is somewhere fun over the Rainbow emblazoned by the Power of 4ever. The clouds soar and the island escalates a Lugia petal dance tempest blizzarding shiny Ash. Evanescence sparkles glistening auroras of mirth and high frequency channels embarking with the winds of new beginnings. This magical adventure turns on at the dawn of time in 2000. Ceremony and enchantment dazzle the world with colors galore. Mania and extravagance shape shift and transform into the greatest show on earth, the evolution of Pokemon
    Something has arrived. That threatens to throw everything terribly out of balance. When it comes, will you accept your destiny? And when it’s your chance to be a hero, will you rise to the challenge? This year, discover how 1 person can make all the difference! Pokemon the Movie 2000 The Power of 1

  40. #40
    Adam Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Midwest, USA
    TIM
    ENTJ-1Te 8w7 sx/so
    Posts
    15,880
    Mentioned
    1505 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think that Tolkien was SEI.

    He hated machines, and it is clear that the most elevated people in Middle Earth were the very Alpha elves.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •