Duals dislike eachother more often than expected

[Suz]

Heh, I disagree with all three of you.
They could be very undualized duals, is an appealing way to way it.

I don't think it's about valued vs unvalued functions at all, I think it's about people not getting along. The other person sounds like an INFx, and I don't know enough about Air to say what he is, but it's not about them. I have seen duals act this way before though, especially at first.

And it's easy to be dismissive because of it.

Maybe you're right.

[tiny_dancer]

I think it's possible they're duals. I have an SLI friend who I just can't seem to really break the ice with. I think it's partly because we don't spend any significant time together, and partly because he's the most unexpressive person I've ever met. I get hypersensitive and insecure b/c I wonder if I'm bothering him, because I get zero feedback on whether he likes my presence or not. Someday maybe that'll change, but for now, whatever. With a lot of SLIs, we really click when we work on things together or spend casual time together. But SLIs are so independent, that often takes a long time to happen.

What is that phrase Krig used? I really liked it - even in the bad dual relationships there's an underlying mutual sympathy. Exactly. Even in my so-so, rather distant relationship with that friend, that quality still exists.

[Slacker]

It's possible for duals to not like each other, but if there' a pattern of it, I think someone is mistyped. And also if they don't like each other for complimentary function reasons, I find that odd too. It's a possibility but I think it's more likely they're not duals and someone (the supposed EII maybe) is mistyped.

[Diaphanous]

In my recent experience with a female INFJ I have noticed that there are BIG problems.

First, we both can see the weakspots of each other so easily... and so easily we can discard each other because of these 'defects'. For example she finds it hard to express herself verbally, she won't be direct under no circumstance, she is constantly with her head in the clouds. And she can see my need for help with Fi, which is to her like her easiest thing... and she interprets it in a negative way sometimes, like I interpret her dumbness (for lack of a better word) and total uncapable-of-driving-a-car nature as irritating.

I think sometimes duals are not the best for long term relationships. Someone in a not conflicting Quadra who's the match (infantile for caregiver, victim for agressor) would be perhaps better. Or even some other caregiver/same romance style.

There is no reason that this is not duality or that there is some mistyping going on here. I think people tend to idealize dual relations. Several of the responses here look a lot like, "What? If it's not perfectly comfortable and wonderful in every way then it can't possibly be duality! Duality is always kittens and rainbows! Someone has mistyped someone!" I disagree.

I think Delta STs just tend to hone in on these sorts of things. When an NF does something incorrectly or inefficiently they HAVE to respond, just like we HAVE to respond to rudeness. In my experience, Delta STs can (and will) tell you what you need to work on. They don't always do a good job when it comes to saying things in an inoffensive way, and they often have a hard time understanding and appreciating the fact that their dual NFs are so head-in-the-clouds. It seems like people value the base function more than the suggestive function. This would mean that sometimes we can be frustrated when someone (even our dual) continues to demonstrate their ineptitude with their suggestive function, which is so important (and so easy!) to us. It comes up as a source of conflict. I have seen this in MANY dual relationships: "MY base function is more important!" "No, MINE is! Why can't you be good at my base function?!"

I also think that, as was mentioned, a lack of duality in one's life, especially in the formative years, can make dualization a more arduous process later on. If the majority of your life experiences lead you to conclude that is what life is all about (you're good at it, the world needs more of it, why can't other people do it?) then you're not going to put before it, even if you do value it. LSE would rather be efficient even if it means that someone's feelings might get hurt (even if they are trying their best to be considerate) and EII would rather demonstrate empathy, even if it means that they might not have time to finish their work (even though they will do their best too).

Duals do have piercing insight into one anothers' weaknesses. And although these weaknesses can be very frustrating, I think it is important to focus on how great things actually are in terms of the big picture. You have to step back and say, "Wait--even though it really irritates me when my dual is too sensitive, lets people walk all over them, can't accomplish tasks properly, etc., these things that I don't like are also the reasons why I love them so much. They might be really sensitive sometimes, but they're also very understanding. They might not be very assertive, but they are very kind. They might not be very good at some of the things I'm good at, but that's okay because they're very..." You get the picture.

[golden]

I just spent half an hour talking to a dual--someone I used to know and ran into. And I noticed ... we actually were not agreeing about everything. He had a lot of really fixed ideas that I thought were wrong-ish, and he probably thought something similar. The crucial thing is, though ... it was no big deal. In fact, at certain moments when he was saying something I disagreed with, I found it totally entertaining.

I've said it before (except I think I put it better, lol) and will keep saying it--what Socionics calls the better interrelations are not just some cakewalk. There will always be problems and issues, and in a good relationship, you can overcome them more easily than in a shitty one.

And going back to the point of the OP, ime, I have always liked my duals right away. But I do agree with the idea that duals might overlook each other. The two I know best, I noticed them because they were sitting right next to me again and again, one in a classroom, the other in a coffee shop. I actually spotted them instantly but didn't find it so easy to break the ice. The only pretext I could really think of was, "Er, I think I like this person, so I'm just gonna start talking."

[thePirate]

Honestly, most of you people are dumb as bricks when it comes to what duality actually is about. I don't know if it's because you are immersed in mental masturbation over this theory, or because you people rarely socialize, or if its just plain idiocy.

Socionics does not say that every person who is your dual is going to be great to you, nor does it tell you that the asshole/junkie in front of you is going to be the best option for marriage. Intertype relations are measurements of comfortableness and conversational ease. Taken in a theoretical context, you have relations which are devoid of the personal aspect - Socionics says, all things being equal, taking two people that are practically the same other than their socionics types, your dual will be the best option for you. Does that not mean that their will be shitty duals? No, in fact I think that in some cases it would be a good idea to avoid your dual - if they are hostile they have easy access to your weak points - and duals CAN hurt you, if you don't think that's true, you are an idiot. This whole bit about not minding their weaknesses applies if they are more or less healthy people - I know 2 people of one type who are drastically different. One's PoLR aggravates the shit out of me, the other I barely even notice. They have the same PoLR, but one is a much more developed individual which makes a huge difference. Use your brains, it's not the theory, it's you and the people you are meeting.

[thePirate]

If people were perfectly comfortable all the time, I suspect it wouldn't be a very good relationship. I dunno how someone could grow and evolve under such circumstances—that seems neither ideal nor realistic.

Depends on what you mean by grow, duality grows you in the sense that the comfortableness allows you to become more comfortable being yourself - using your ego functions, and basically aiding in developing a strong sense of self esteem - along with other stuff like a sense of camaraderie and appreciation that contribute to psychological health. For me, beta ST's are usually empowering in some way. It has a way of focusing you on your strengths, and if your not too prideful, allowing the partner to take care of the stuff you may be insecure about/are weak at.

[golden]

Honestly, most of you people are dumb as bricks when it comes to what duality actually is about. I don't know if it's because you are immersed in mental masturbation over this theory, or because you people rarely socialize, or if its just plain idiocy.

Socionics does not say that every person who is your dual is going to be great to you, nor does it tell you that the asshole/junkie in front of you is going to be the best option for marriage. Intertype relations are measurements of comfortableness and conversational ease. Taken in a theoretical context, you have relations which are devoid of the personal aspect - Socionics says, all things being equal, taking two people that are practically the same other than their socionics types, your dual will be the best option for you. Does that not mean that their will be shitty duals? No, in fact I think that in some cases it would be a good idea to avoid your dual - if they are hostile they have easy access to your weak points - and duals CAN hurt you, if you don't think that's true, you are an idiot. This whole bit about not minding their weaknesses applies if they are more or less healthy people - I know 2 people of one type who are drastically different. One's PoLR aggravates the shit out of me, the other I barely even notice. They have the same PoLR, but one is a much more developed individual which makes a huge difference. Use your brains, it's not the theory, it's you and the people you are meeting.

Yeah. You put it in a bitchy way, lol, but I like this. For example, I talked to that guy, we're about the same age ... am I going to dump my boyfriend over him or something? Just because he's a dual doesn't even mean I would want to date him if I weren't already involved with someone else. It basically means I just had a good conversation for 1/2 hour and felt better afterward.

[717495]

Mooooooo, I'm a cow.

[discojoe]

I just spent half an hour talking to a dual--someone I used to know and ran into. And I noticed ... we actually were not agreeing about everything. He had a lot of really fixed ideas that I thought were wrong-ish, and he probably thought something similar. The crucial thing is, though ... it was no big deal. In fact, at certain moments when he was saying something I disagreed with, I found it totally entertaining.

I've noticed, from my superior Ti sub perspective, that subtype compatibility is really important in dual interaction.

Ni EIE: Interesting, but they get all standoffish and think they need to put me in my place just because I am a genius. They also tend to be pretentious and all mystical and shit, believing in spiritual energy and anal quasars. A rare example of a healthy one is Golden, even though she's PA. Ti makes them poop fairies or something, like I'm tearing down their world. If I act Se and punch them in the face, they laugh. How can I love such a woman?

Fe EIE: Giggly and retarded, just the way I like my women. When I say "WHAT THE HELL" at a guy on a bicycle, they think it's hilarious. They listen to me talk about myself for ten hours and finger themselves even if we're at applebees. I get along better with these, but I can never trust EIEs because they by nature are rude and inconsiderate. Unlike myself who is thoughtful and caring even though I despise people in general.

An interesting thing I'd like to note is that activity relations can bear many dual-like similarities when subtypes are compatible. To me, Fe IEIs are like quieter, cuter versions of Fe EIEs. Their Ni doesn't slingshot acorns at your face when you're reading your morning drudge report. Instead, it is kept inside, like a fantasy, and their Fe pops out in cute little spurts worthy of the merriest adulation. The only downside is that there is no downside, so I have to venture outdoors to prey on people intellectually.

On a side note, fuck you.

[717495]

Fe EIE: Giggly and retarded, just the way I like my women.

Yes Fe subtypes are higher-grade, captian obvious. Ni/Si subtypes are just horrible.

[discojoe]

Yes Fe subtypes are higher-grade, captian obvious. Ni/Si subtypes are just horrible.

They are, but at a distance they are tolerable and--depending on the distance--maybe even fun. For example, George and I are good friends, and he's an Ni EIE who's almost completely dissociated from reality. How does this work, you ask? Simple: I live in Florida and he lives in Boston.

[Suz]

My understanding of duality is that there is going to be friction initially. And by initially i mean like the first decade. When I look at SLEs and project how we'd get along if we had to live in close quarters together I can't imagine us not fighting ever and just perfectly understanding each other. That's just not happening. We view the world from two opposite sides and so there is bound to be conflict in mutual decision making.

10 years??? This scenario does not sound like duality at all to me. If it takes 10 years for things to smooth out, likely the people involved are just learning how to adjust to a respective type that is NOT complementary, and that's why they are fighting less over time. Living closely with a dual, there should be minimal fighting and good understanding of each other pretty much right away. At a distance is another story.

[FDG]

Yeah, more like 10 days. Although IME it takes less than that.

[discojoe]

You can't complement perfection.

[Sumer1an]

Ni EIE: Interesting, but they get all standoffish and think they need to put me in my place just because I am a genius. They also tend to be pretentious and all mystical and shit, believing in spiritual energy and anal quasars. A rare example of a healthy one is Golden, even though she's PA. Ti makes them poop fairies or something, like I'm tearing down their world. If I act Se and punch them in the face, they laugh. How can I love such a woman?

haha i have noticed this about Ni-EIEs. They are terrible people and I hate them. When they are Ni subtype they are supervisors to me x10. I cant spend more than five minutes around them before they try and take shots at my intelligence because they think im showing off. I feel like they try to supervise anyone of any type. At least the ones I have met have been like this. I have met two different Fe- EIEs who didnt supervise me at all (I assume they just kept all of their critical thoughts in their head) and were surprisingly pretty cool.

[discojoe]

haha i have noticed this about Ni-EIEs. They are terrible people and I hate them. When they are Ni subtype they are supervisors to me x10. I cant spend more than five minutes around them before they try and take shots at my intelligence because they think im showing off. I feel like they try to supervise anyone of any type. At least the ones I have met have been like this. I have met two different Fe- EIEs who didnt supervise me at all (I assume they just kept all of their critical thoughts in their head) and were surprisingly pretty cool.

The Fe subs are ironically less apt to supervise Fe-related offenses, because they are more tolerant and concerned with getting along.

And yeah, the Ni subs try to supervise anyone who puts on a display of intelligence. I just say "So? Fuck off, I'll say what I want. You're just jealous." Pretend you're me and see if that helps.

[yellow82]

Wow Chip, just wow. . . I seriously doubt your type because the way you're talking about what you did in your relationships irks the inner most parts of my being. If my bf didn't trust me enough to be taken home by some other guy because I needed a ride home I would dump him too.

If there is no trust, there is no relationship. It'd be best if you'd learn to trust the ESE's you're with. I can promise you, every ESE I have ever known was completely and entirely faithful to their boyfriend, no matter how sketchy things may have appeared at the time. . .

ESE's are faithful by nature. If they're in a relationship, they're in a relationship. The only exception to the rule is when you hear them say that cheating is normal, and that it shouldn't matter. . . then, they're probably cheating on you because they consider it an ok/normal thing to do. . .

Honestly though, you've probably gotten the "I'm not into you" just by the way you appear to distrust everyone around you. . . trust is SO important. If you don't trust the person that you have a crush/are in love with do them a favor and move on. Until you can trust them, the relationship isn't worth it.

[squark]

Dealing with people, we learn to adapt, we learn the actions and responses that will get us what we want from others. They become scripts that we follow without thinking. And we hide our true thoughts and intentions behind these scripts. One thing duality can do is help us unlearn these scripts and act in an authentic way. That's assuming the dual you're dealing with is reasonably sane, balanced and authentic too. A clueless jackass isn't going to be much help, and will probably just hurt you.

But, when you're both okay, then the more "you" that you each are, the better you are for each other. Even then, it's not always easy. True personal growth never is easy, whether by yourself, or through dealing with other people (of all different socionic types, not just duals.) The people who have meant the most to me in my life have all challenged me in some way, engaging me on a real level, knowing me in some way. The easy or superficial relationships have come and gone without me hardly remembering them because we didn't really know each other.

To want perfect ease and no friction is imo to want stagnation. You will not agree in every way with ANY person that you really know, and if you're never able to disagree and conflict with someone, you don't really know them. How honest you can be with a person, especially in showing them things they don't want to see tells you more about your relationship with them than any light airy "ease" you may have.

If you're afraid to be upset with somone, or afraid to have them upset at you, then there's not as much there as you might like to believe. There was this one guy I was with for awhile, who everytime I got even a little upset about something he freaked out, and went to great lengths to try to make it up to me. Most people would assume, "Oh he REALLY liked you!" but that's not it. On the surface it seems that's true, but a lack of faith in the ability of a relationship to survive some conflict and friction without having to go to huge efforts to smooth it out, means that it's not an actual relationship at all. You neither know or trust the other person, regardless of what reasons you may come up with to justify your actions or fear.

[UDP]

10 years??? This scenario does not sound like duality at all to me. If it takes 10 years for things to smooth out, likely the people involved are just learning how to adjust to a respective type that is NOT complementary, and that's why they are fighting less over time. Living closely with a dual, there should be minimal fighting and good understanding of each other pretty much right away. At a distance is another story.

If you are two generally sane and healthy people with personal values that otherwise are functionally coexistable, sure.

[Variant]

Agreed. Dual pairs form naturally. People naturally seek something to balance their innate world view. That's why so many of my ILI friends make a big to do about doing home ec stuff, little practical things they made, making the mundane seem...almost interesting. I think it's cute...

But yeah, dual pairs just happen...no wonder dual pairs are all over fiction since forever. I go to group meetings and see them gravitate (and no, they don't always love each other...some complain about the other but they end up sticking around despite that, for some reason). It's not always like that and I know I don't hang with every dual I see, but seeing things in terms of compatible opposites does not automatically mean vast differences to be overcome. It's so natural and organic that I would sometimes call it easy to overlook its significance when it's actually happening...similar to when many basic natural wonders happen. It's beautiful and so simple and natural but few take time to study it and be like 'hey, this is pretty amazing.' Kinda like how earth scientists nerdgasm over what most of us think is boring petty shit...because we don't study it and get it like they do.

But I would say the most similar people in terms of type relations are identicals and duals or else identicals, mirrors, then duals, but I say identicals and duals are the most fundamentally similar and identical differences stand out more than differences between duals...duals are only obviously different in how they appear, but in interaction, these differences are the most easily overlooked and overcome versus with identicals who are so similar in how they appear that I know I end up noticing the differences more than the similarities, usually. I think this has to do with the competitive element in identity which is almost impossible to ignore.

Duals, after all, are like the part of you that you know is there but others don't know and don't see because it's the part of you you are not confident on expressing but they are and that is reason for them to confidently express that and it works the other way around since you do same for them. One of the reasons a lot of amusement is characterized...they say things, confidently, that you feel deep down inside but you don't say it as naturally, as bluntly, or as eloquently as they do but you get moments where they say something or you say something and one starts grinning, nodding, and laughing and it catches with the other...that resonance...that you don't get as much with identity because such relations are redundant and natural traits are not as encouraged because of the competition element so one or both play some unnatural role so as to not get in the way...which also contributes to the identical avoiding each other aspect since it's natural to get in the way by producing too much of the same thing...or if they don't avoid it gets over the top which can be fun but isn't conducive to a relaxed, balanced state.

Mannn that was said wonderfully, I loved it. You should be put in a book lol.

[Pookie]

you are my new role-model. The Fe-EIE tirade was not only spot-on, it... touched me. Its crazy how they'll just finger themselves in applebees all the time. Figuratively speaking.

[Pookie]

If my bf didn't trust me enough to be taken home by some other guy because I needed a ride home I would dump him too.

If there is no trust, there is no relationship. It'd be best if you'd learn to trust the ESE's you're with. I can promise you, every ESE I have ever known was completely and entirely faithful to their boyfriend, no matter how sketchy things may have appeared at the time. . .

ESE's are faithful by nature.

REALLY? by nature? I've known many ESE women who absolutely were not faithful. So incredibly unfaithful that it seemed perposterous. I think you're delusional if you think ESE women are any more faithful than the other types. And by the way, getting taken home by some other guy(probably because you're drunk) is absolutely a reason for a dude to flip. Guys take advantage of girls all the time, and afterwards the girls are the victims. Can you really not see why a guy would not want you to go home with another guy?

[chip]

My problem is not mistrust but choosing who to trust. In truth I heard one side of the story from my friends who I consider trustworthy but I realise I have never heard her side of the story. Given the chance she can clear her name but that means I have misplaced my trust.
Aside from that the pair of us have both moved on. She is in a new relationship with a korean man so they can communicate clearly and I am in a new relationship with a korean women who can speak good english and my korean is coming along. Having an open and honest relationship is our daily practise. We have agreed to keep no secrets from each other which means there is no suspecion or fear. However we do keep secrets together from our friends regarding our sex lives. We make sure not to limit one another and instead rely on trust to guide our moral behaviour instead of obligation. I think the most important ingredient to our relationship is the realisation that both of us always have a choice to be or not to be with each other. Basically we are together one day because that one day we choose to be together and not because we said the day before lets be together tomorrow. Its a relationship based on choice and not committment.

[NinjaTim]

Yeah dual relations can be quite bad depending on the values and morals of the individuals. My mum and dad for example (IEE and SLI respectively) pretty much hate each other, dad sorta simmers inside and tries not to show it, mum just goes apeshit whenever the mood takes her. Same thing between mum and my SLI brother.
Though maybe this is not the best example as I am sure she has underlying issues (there were quite often knife fights and beatings when my older sister (ILE) and I (IEE) used to live at home) Uncle and his girlfriend don't get along with her (ILE, SEI) either so yeah.

Also, I am certain she is IEE, from observing her behaviours myself, and also all of the aforementioned saying to me at one time or another QUOTE "You 2 are like EXACTLY the same...except you're not insane..."

[blackburry]

Though maybe this is not the best example as I am sure she has underlying issues (there were quite often knife fights and beatings when my older sister (ILE) and I (IEE) used to live at home) Uncle and his girlfriend don't get along with her (ILE, SEI) either so yeah.

.... "You 2 are like EXACTLY the same...except you're not insane..."

knife fights? jeez dude, maybe she is insane...

[Beautiful sky]

I also think that, as was mentioned, a lack of duality in one's life, especially in the formative years, can make dualization a more arduous process later on. If the majority of your life experiences lead you to conclude that is what life is all about (you're good at it, the world needs more of it, why can't other people do it?) then you're not going to put before it, even if you do value it. LSE would rather be efficient even if it means that someone's feelings might get hurt (even if they are trying their best to be considerate) and EII would rather demonstrate empathy, even if it means that they might not have time to finish their work (even though they will do their best too).

I agree with your post whole heartedly.

[mimisor]

Heh, duality talk over and over again... We all aspire to it. In truth it is not so easy, duality is not something that is given to us, but it is a process and also is necesarry 2 people to work on it. I am very dissapointed of my "duality" attempts. But i realize now it is a work of 2 people. I am an withdrawn, quiet person and he told me he does not agree with me the way i am, he is loud, reckless, has many friends and acquiantances, i don't know quite frankly how in the world is this ever going to work.

[Amber]

I'm sure that if they were to make statistics about such phenomena to enrich their Socionics research, they'd discover this is true. Theoretical duals dislike each other more often than not.

Personally I have to like the creature in question first (through real qualities or life experiences)... for any "feeling of duality" to be even considered, detected, or permitted. IEs alone = zero.

[mu4]

4d functions are expressed boldly in duality there is always a 4d to 1d interaction between demonstrative and Polr, misunderstandings can easily occur but can be resolved thru ego function use.

[bolong]

Is discojoe really banned?? He's too hilarious.

[Olimpia]

I think it simply comes down to the fact that from afar, your dual could very well be your Conflictor.

For example, that's why SEE people can say "they hate nerds", mainly because they don't get along well with Alpha NTs who are also "nerdy" in a way.

Once duals establish closer contact and "dualize", given they have complementary world views etc., there should be no grave problem between them.