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Thread: Empirical Justification of Intertype Relationship Theory?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by wym123
    Rick picked it apart a bit and you just told him to back off. Looks like someone else here has "definite insecurities about his own reasoning ability."
    You studied Philosophy right? Do you have any comments about his ideas? Please apply the rigorous deductive reasoning that you were supposed to acquire during your study of Philosophy. Please make a comment on the well-definedness of his ideas. Please comment on the consistency of his ideas thoughout the essay.
    What you have to remember about tcaudlllig is that he is Ti.

    1) Ti types often turn their ideas into their identitiy, so when people criticize them, they take it personally and rigidly defend their stance ignoring outside perspective.

    2) Because they are apparently anti-positivists, they don't mind things being idealized, philosophical, or rounding out the edges to fit into any system.
    The second quote he was talking to me, meaning I was not born just yesterday and wym123 is attempting to put people on the spot and to stop people from siding against him [which if that happens, it is his own fault].

    That is besides that fact that wym123 and tcaudlllig both claim they use Ti ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by wym123
    Rick picked it apart a bit and you just told him to back off. Looks like someone else here has "definite insecurities about his own reasoning ability."
    You studied Philosophy right? Do you have any comments about his ideas? Please apply the rigorous deductive reasoning that you were supposed to acquire during your study of Philosophy. Please make a comment on the well-definedness of his ideas. Please comment on the consistency of his ideas thoughout the essay.
    What you have to remember about tcaudlllig is that he is Ti.

    1) Ti types often turn their ideas into their identitiy, so when people criticize them, they take it personally and rigidly defend their stance ignoring outside perspective.

    2) Because they are apparently anti-positivists, they don't mind things being idealized, philosophical, or rounding out the edges to fit into any system.
    The second quote he was talking to me, meaning I was not born just yesterday and wym123 is attempting to put people on the spot and to stop people from siding against him [which if that happens, it is his own fault].

    That is besides that fact that wym123 and tcaudlllig both claim they use Ti ..
    He was attacking both of you at the same time. He claimed tcaudlllig was spewing crap, and that he lacked consistancy of thought.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by wym123
    Rick picked it apart a bit and you just told him to back off. Looks like someone else here has "definite insecurities about his own reasoning ability."
    You studied Philosophy right? Do you have any comments about his ideas? Please apply the rigorous deductive reasoning that you were supposed to acquire during your study of Philosophy. Please make a comment on the well-definedness of his ideas. Please comment on the consistency of his ideas thoughout the essay.
    What you have to remember about tcaudlllig is that he is Ti.

    1) Ti types often turn their ideas into their identitiy, so when people criticize them, they take it personally and rigidly defend their stance ignoring outside perspective.

    2) Because they are apparently anti-positivists, they don't mind things being idealized, philosophical, or rounding out the edges to fit into any system.
    The second quote he was talking to me, meaning I was not born just yesterday and wym123 is attempting to put people on the spot and to stop people from siding against him [which if that happens, it is his own fault].

    That is besides that fact that wym123 and tcaudlllig both claim they use Ti ..
    He was attacking both of you at the same time. He claimed tcaudlllig was spewing crap, and that he lacked consistancy of thought.
    Hmmm, I disagree with tcaudilllig at times, especially about the crosstyping thing. But, the fact that wym123 is being an intellectual pain-in-the-ass seems to make me feel much better about tcaudilllig, so I am not likely to want to deviate from current actions on account of wym123 simply saying "Ohhh my gosh, look at tcaudilllig." That's called scapegoatism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    Hmmm, I disagree with tcaudilllig at times, especially about the crosstyping thing. But, the fact that wym123 is being an intellectual pain-in-the-ass seems to make me feel much better about tcaudilllig, so I am not likely to want to deviate from current actions on account of wym123 simply saying "Ohhh my gosh, look at tcaudilllig." That's called scapegoatism.
    Very interesting phenomenon: an apparently neutral party has constellated my enemy and I into joint opposition against him! (because, rmcnew, he does not perceive we are enemies!)

    wym123 is attempting to turn us against the other side of a schizm in the neutral ranks. Had I not uncovered what I have, I never would have seen it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    Hmmm, I disagree with tcaudilllig at times, especially about the crosstyping thing. But, the fact that wym123 is being an intellectual pain-in-the-ass seems to make me feel much better about tcaudilllig, so I am not likely to want to deviate from current actions on account of wym123 simply saying "Ohhh my gosh, look at tcaudilllig." That's called scapegoatism.
    Very interesting phenomenon: an apparently neutral party has constellated my enemy and I into joint opposition against him! (because, rmcnew, he does not perceive we are enemies!)

    wym123 is attempting to turn us against the other side of a schizm in the neutral ranks. Had I not uncovered what I have, I never would have seen it.
    That, and I know that pointing fingers as an attempt to distract attention away from oneself does not absolve people of their own personal problems, and I am far from intending to blame a party that has nothing to do with the actions of another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    First of all I don't care for mathematics in as much as I can throw it. Mathematics does little more than abstractly model an intuitive perception.
    Absolutely false. It is the other way around. Mathematics is the language though which you explain your intution. with extreme precision. There is no ambiguity in Mathematics.

    Consider this example:
    Intuition: An encryption is perfectly secure if there is no way for an attacker to figure out anything about the plain text given the cipher text.

    Mathematics: Let M be the set of plain texts, K be the set of keys, C be the set of cipher texts. Let a probability distribution be induced on M, and C. An encryption, Enc is perfectly secure if for all m in M, Pr[Enc_k(m) = c] = Pr[m].

    Precise English formalism: given an encryption scheme, and a key space, plain text space, and cipher text space associated with the scheme, where probability distributions are defined for the plain text space and cipher text space, the probability, given a cipher text, the probability of choosing the correct message is no different from not knowing the cipher text in the first place.

    clearly, the "intuition" way of expressing is inherently unclear. How do you define "figure out anything" for example?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    You know that. For another thing I have an issue with the reliance on archaic, very vague symbols for independent systems within these models. (what else to expect from an institution dominated by NTPs? (although I'm sure even some of them concurr with my arguement)) Not only, but it's getting worse! An implied convention that makes a mathematical expression shorter, but even more obscure, is considered a triumph! Have you seen Wikipedia!?
    Archaic?? Mathematical notation is a relatively recent invention. Newton did not have mathematical notation to use at all.

    Also, do you know why it is used? Because mathematics is very precise and the very same ideas are used over and over to express things. However, it takes too damn long to write out everything in English. For example, compare the precise English formalism with the mathematical notation in my previous example. And also, who wants to write "for all" everytime, when they can just use the upside-down A. Also which one is longer?


    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Yet I've seen computer programs--and if you look for them on the internet you will find them--that model the Maxwell equations and Einstein's field equations with multiplication, division, and control structures! What possible logical argument can be made for preserving the archaic, woefully convoluted (and getting more so every day...!) symbolic simplification system over the much more readable and learnable code of C or BASIC? Tell me one physical system that has been successfully simulated that hasn't been written in C--just one! If I want to model a mathematical equation, I'll do it in programming and put it to immediate use. (or at least pseudocode)
    Hahaha, do you know that those physical simulations are imprecise? They using floating point arithematic to approximate the answers. Also, what does mathematical modeling have anything to do with mathematicals. Mathematicians almost never model any physical phenomenon. That sounds more like the job of Engineers.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Now how can you possibly justify a system that still forces people to use "greek" in professional environments when there are much better alternatives very well known and immediately available? The only plausible reason I can see for it is to preserve an aura of mysticism and superiority in "experts", and to make powerful information architectures difficult to interpret.
    Perhaps, alternatives AREN'T better. If you have trouble understanding mathematics in notational form, you should just give up because mathematics itself is much much harder than that.

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    Hmmm, I disagree with tcaudilllig at times, especially about the crosstyping thing. But, the fact that wym123 is being an intellectual pain-in-the-ass seems to make me feel much better about tcaudilllig, so I am not likely to want to deviate from current actions on account of wym123 simply saying "Ohhh my gosh, look at tcaudilllig." That's called scapegoatism.
    I am not going to force you to examine his work. But if your Philosophy studies is of any good, then you know what my point is. If you don't want to openly express this point of view, that's fine. I am content to know that my point is already proven from your extreme bias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    That, and I know that pointing fingers as an attempt to distract attention away from oneself does not absolve people of their own personal problems, and I am far from intending to blame a party that has nothing to do with the actions of another.
    Would you like to clarify what those "personal problems" are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wym123
    Hmmm, I disagree with tcaudilllig at times, especially about the crosstyping thing. But, the fact that wym123 is being an intellectual pain-in-the-ass seems to make me feel much better about tcaudilllig, so I am not likely to want to deviate from current actions on account of wym123 simply saying "Ohhh my gosh, look at tcaudilllig." That's called scapegoatism.
    I am not going to force you to examine his work. But if your Philosophy studies is of any good, then you know what my point is. If you don't want to openly express this point of view, that's fine. I am content to know that my point is already proven from your extreme bias.
    Lack of inaction proves a point that has been lost in translation ... there's a new one ...

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    I'll get back to you on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    I'll get back to you on this.
    I also want to say that if you think wikipedia is full of Mathematical notation, Yea right! Try reading a real mathematical textbook aimed for graduate math students. Try this site too though it is nothing like a real text.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    The only plausible reason I can see for it is to preserve an aura of mysticism and superiority in "experts", and to make powerful information architectures difficult to interpret.
    I should have mentioned that your reason doesn't even sense, if you take into consideration the fact that rigorous Mathematics, where you see all this notation, is not really aimed for the layperson at all. What difference does it make not knowing the notation, if you can't understand the concepts behind the proofs for something like, in branch of Topology, whether the fundamental group really satisfies the group axioms. There is perhaps more mysticism in the concept of a Fundamental Group than in the notation used to write the fundamental group in shorthand (which happens to be the symbol for pi).

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    I'm no math major, but I have a math question.

    How does infinity, in the math sense, translate/transition into infinity, in the real world/reality sense?

    That is a rather vauge question, but, perhaps you can understand what I mean.



    (I got the idea from a philosophy class, and seeing this:

    Mathematics: Let M be the set of plain texts, K be the set of keys, C be the set of cipher texts. Let a probability distribution be induced on M, and C. An encryption, Enc is perfectly secure if for all m in M, Pr[Enc_k(m) = c] = Pr[m].

    Precise English formalism: given an encryption scheme, and a key space, plain text space, and cipher text space associated with the scheme, where probability distributions are defined for the plain text space and cipher text space, the probability, given a cipher text, the probability of choosing the correct message is no different from not knowing the cipher text in the first place.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    I'm no math major, but I have a math question.

    How does infinity, in the math sense, translate/transition into infinity, in the real world/reality sense?

    That is a rather vauge question, but, perhaps you can understand what I mean.
    Infinity is used in mathematics to denote the idea of going beyond boundaries. In order words, it is used when no value can represent the concept in mind because every value is smaller (or larger if we are dealing with negative infinity). For example, we can say that the infinite sum of the expression x (summation of x from 1 to infinity), means we are taking the sum from one to beyond any value that can be conceived. Obviously this does not translate well at all into the real world because nothing is infinite. The reason for this is that math is not defined according to reality but on some virtual "intellectual" space and in this space, the idea of infinite can be precisely defined and hence, exists.

    I should mention that the concept of infinite is actually even more refined, leading to another usage. In set theory, the cardinality (size) of a set can be finite, countable or uncountable. Finite of course means that a value can be placed on the size. Countable means, it is infinite (no value can be placed on the size) but in such a way that it is enumerable. In other words, there is a way to sysmatically way to assign each element of the set a number from 0 to infinity. In fancy mathematical language, there exists a bijection between the set of whole numbers, N, and the set. Uncountable means, it is infinite in an inenumerable way. The real numbers is an example of such a set because, there is no way to systematically enumerate all the reals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wym123
    ....math is not defined according to reality but on some virtual "intellectual" space and in this space, the idea of infinite can be precisely defined and hence, exists.
    Correct, although in depth psychology--and in socionics--this virtual intellectual space is called the unconscious.

    Many problems in mathematics may have solutions that will never be found. This is because the unconscious may hide information from consciousness that clearly deliniates a point, because perceiving that point may be contrary to existence. (for example, reaching lightspeed c) Mathematicians need to be aware of this. Rather than trying to prove something that seems impossible, perhaps it would be better to disprove it. I am sure that mathematicians do that, but consider this: if someone you distrusted published a proof you disagreed with, how likely would you be to disagree? And even if you agreed, would you enjoy agreeing with it, and wouldn't you eagerly accept the first opportunity to attempt contradicting it?

    About your example:

    Mathematics: Let M be the set of plain texts, K be the set of keys, C be the set of cipher texts. Let a probability distribution be induced on M, and C. An encryption, Enc is perfectly secure if for all m in M, Pr[Enc_k(m) = c] = Pr[m].

    Precise English formalism: given an encryption scheme, and a key space, plain text space, and cipher text space associated with the scheme, where probability distributions are defined for the plain text space and cipher text space, the probability, given a cipher text, the probability of choosing the correct message is no different from not knowing the cipher text in the first place.
    Now formally we can ascribe elements of the psyche to your formula. Let the plain texts be knowledge, let the keys be the concrete art revelations required for new understanding, and let the ciphers be the elements of reality whose relations to each other are not previously understood.

    How to put this into a computational formula?

    In Javascript (my preferred language whenever possible),

    Code:
    ExpectedText = "[whatever]";
    Key = 0;
    
    while (!(Key)) {
      TextIndex++;
      ChipherIndex++;
      CipherFunction = new Function (Cipher[CipherIndex]);
      CipheredText = CipherFunction(Plaintext[TestIndex]);
    
      Success = MatchElements(CipheredText, ExpectedText);
      // Clear enough what it means. Returns the frequency of ExpectedText in CipheredText.
        if (Success > CertitudeThreshold) {
          Key = 1;
          }
        }
      }
    Is that what you were looking for? That's the limit to which the problem can be solved. One must know what to expect from the correct cipher before it can be judged as such.

    That is the fundamental logic underlying your idea, however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Quote Originally Posted by wym123
    ....math is not defined according to reality but on some virtual "intellectual" space and in this space, the idea of infinite can be precisely defined and hence, exists.
    Correct, although in depth psychology--and in socionics--this virtual intellectual space is called the unconscious.

    Many problems in mathematics may have solutions that will never be found. This is because the unconscious may hide information from consciousness that clearly deliniates a point, because perceiving that point may be contrary to existence. (for example, reaching lightspeed c) Mathematicians need to be aware of this. Rather than trying to prove something that seems impossible, perhaps it would be better to disprove it. I am sure that mathematicians do that, but consider this: if someone you distrusted published a proof you disagreed with, how likely would you be to disagree? And even if you agreed, would you enjoy agreeing with it, and wouldn't you eagerly accept the first opportunity to attempt contradicting it?

    About your example:

    Mathematics: Let M be the set of plain texts, K be the set of keys, C be the set of cipher texts. Let a probability distribution be induced on M, and C. An encryption, Enc is perfectly secure if for all m in M, Pr[Enc_k(m) = c] = Pr[m].

    Precise English formalism: given an encryption scheme, and a key space, plain text space, and cipher text space associated with the scheme, where probability distributions are defined for the plain text space and cipher text space, the probability, given a cipher text, the probability of choosing the correct message is no different from not knowing the cipher text in the first place.
    Now formally we can ascribe elements of the psyche to your formula. Let the plain texts be knowledge, let the keys be the concrete art revelations required for new understanding, and let the ciphers be the elements of reality whose relations to each other are not previously understood.

    How to put this into a computational formula?

    In Javascript (my preferred language whenever possible),

    Code:
    ExpectedText = "[whatever]";
    Key = 0;
    
    while (!(Key)) {
      TextIndex++;
      ChipherIndex++;
      CipherFunction = new Function (Cipher[CipherIndex]);
      CipheredText = CipherFunction(Plaintext[TestIndex]);
    
      Success = MatchElements(CipheredText, ExpectedText);
      // Clear enough what it means. Returns the frequency of ExpectedText in CipheredText.
        if (Success > CertitudeThreshold) {
          Key = 1;
          }
        }
      }
    Is that what you were looking for? That's the limit to which the problem can be solved. One must know what to expect from the correct cipher before it can be judged as such.

    That is the fundamental logic underlying your idea, however.
    Are you a 15 year old or something, who does not know anything and is trying to act like a know it all?? Did you drop out of high school and college or something??

    Your response, your ideas, everything, are so idiotic that I don't know where to begin.

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    I will begin here:

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Many problems in mathematics may have solutions that will never be found. This is because the unconscious may hide information from consciousness that clearly deliniates a point, because perceiving that point may be contrary to existence.

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    Well you come across as very egotistical. Indeed, you seem to have a penchant for holding the line of "your group", a gestahlt trait. See "My Conclusions about Crosstypes" for a full explanation of the gestahlt trait, although to summarize it means you have undifferentiated E and I, and are prone to observe the external (objective) effects of internal (subjective) motivations.

    I'll go further and observe you are very intelligent. Your P and J are probably undifferentiated/crossed as well.

    xNTx, the Commander:
    The Commander lives for battle with his opposites. He is adept at penetrating their strategies and laying skillful tactical ambushes. He inspires in his men great courage and enthusiasm, owing to his identification with their collective identity.

    To put in bluntly you are an Einstein, but without the inner sense of self: you look to others to make you who you are.

    Alternatively you could be an xNTP or and XNTJ, but I'm not seeing either of those.

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    Default You know what

    I found it all wery interesting and entaertaining if you consider the fact that I do not possess strong .

    Wym123 said:

    Obviously this does not translate well at all into the real world because nothing is infinite.

    Can God be infinite? If there is an idea of infinity that means infinity exists, like imagination or thought or space, somthing and nothing. nothing is infinite and something is finite.

    I like the colourful langauge of rmcnew, he makes me laugh quite often recently:

    But, the fact that wym123 is being an intellectual pain-in-the-ass seems to make me feel much better about tcaudilllig, so I am not likely to want to deviate from current actions on account of wym123 simply saying "Ohhh my gosh, look at tcaudilllig." That's called scapegoatism.

    I would say rmcnew here uses emotions + sensorics= colour. It is also judging in my view. But I do not insist - let it be my subjective opinion.

    I would like to know what type is Wym123, if it is not a secret? It must be strong logic (?) and intuition and rather perception than rationality? I guess one of the the two: ENTP, INTP. I don't mind to mistake I just want to know!!!!!

    Somehow I am not suprised about the position of rmcnew, I can understand where it comes from, I have been there. I think all the positions are true but from different perspectives. And that is why it is not worth arguing really. I see it as everyone protects his strongest qualities and all types have got something very special and beautiful about them.

    If we shall leave rmcnew alone because his type is not defined yet, then I would say that INTJ is a practician. He does not produce and does not need to go deep into theory, he can take any existant abstract theory/idea and take it apart and play with it until he does something different out of it, so abstract theory should not really bother them and thus qualifications do not mean a lot. It is like a gift which you perfet with practice. May be not all INTJs are that clever but some can be very intellegent ind respectful in htier professional field without degrees and qualifications.

    As for me, I am studying all my life and never feel as overly intellegent.
    I always thought that qualifiactions can make you very clever but I see that people can be clever but not wise and on the opposite. On the whole I admire intellectuals and love qualifications (my third/role function is ) but it is wisdom that you keeps happy and not the amount of qualifications. Wisdom or high level of moral reasoning does not necessarily suggest good education, although such association has been found by psychological research. I think we are all not idiots here if we find this forum interesting and entertaining.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Many problems in mathematics may have solutions that will never be found. This is because the unconscious may hide information from consciousness that clearly deliniates a point, because perceiving that point may be contrary to existence. (for example, reaching lightspeed c) .
    I opened this thread at the last page, and started at the bottom, so I really have no idea what it's all about. I also have no idea what you're trying to say. But the mention of lightspeed made me think of an article I read the other day which I thought was interesting:

    http://www.livescience.com/technolog...fastlight.html

    Okay, pardon my interuption, have fun.
    Ignore this last page. It's been waaaaaaaaay off course. Try the first page and work down from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Many problems in mathematics may have solutions that will never be found. This is because the unconscious may hide information from consciousness that clearly deliniates a point, because perceiving that point may be contrary to existence.
    Now that I am done with my last midterm, I am going to have some fun. tcaudilllg, are you telling me that the next time you fail to answer a question on your calculus final, it is because figuring out the answer will disavow your existence hence your brain prevents you from realizing the answer for your own protection?
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    (for example, reaching lightspeed c) Mathematicians need to be aware of this. Rather than trying to prove something that seems impossible, perhaps it would be better to disprove it. I am sure that mathematicians do that, but consider this: if someone you distrusted published a proof you disagreed with, how likely would you be to disagree? And even if you agreed, would you enjoy agreeing with it, and wouldn't you eagerly accept the first opportunity to attempt contradicting it?
    Being unable to reach lightspeed c is not proven using Mathematics. It has nothing to do with mathematics. Actually, there is really no "proof" that it is impossible to reach c. All we have experimental evidence on small stuff where as you approach c, your mass significantly increases. Who knows, may there is something about the universe that we don't know. Maybe there is some hidden rule that says that if your mass is over the mass of a small galaxy, it is effortless to approach the speed of light and exceed it. Though this scenario is highly unlikely and would refute much of known physics if detected, it is not impossible and we cannot rule it out completely. This is the different between plain old inductive reasoning and real proofs (deductive reasoning).

    As for your second part, you should really go into academia. Your idea of risking your professionalism over some childish rivalry is very cute. Though, I will admit that given such a person, I would be very motivated to find flaws in the proof of such a person. However, if I am unable to find anyway, I will not think much of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    In Javascript (my preferred language whenever possible),

    Code:
    ExpectedText = "[whatever]";
    Key = 0;
    
    while (!(Key)) {
      TextIndex++;
      ChipherIndex++;
      CipherFunction = new Function (Cipher[CipherIndex]);
      CipheredText = CipherFunction(Plaintext[TestIndex]);
    
      Success = MatchElements(CipheredText, ExpectedText);
      // Clear enough what it means. Returns the frequency of ExpectedText in CipheredText.
        if (Success > CertitudeThreshold) {
          Key = 1;
          }
        }
      }
    Is that what you were looking for? That's the limit to which the problem can be solved. One must know what to expect from the correct cipher before it can be judged as such.

    That is the fundamental logic underlying your idea, however.
    That was a statement about the universe. Specifically it is a definition of perfect security for an encryption scheme. What you have done is akin to writing a program for the definition of the color "red" as it appears on a ball. Very intelligent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Can God be infinite? If there is an idea of infinity that means infinity exists, like imagination or thought or space, somthing and nothing. nothing is infinite and something is finite.
    The idea that God can be liken to infinity is not entirely illogical since both ideas are similar in spirit. However, the definition of infinity in Mathematics is very precise and God is not part of the definition at all. Thus, the concept of infinity being considered equivalent to God, it is no longer a mathematical concept and the definition of infinity that I gave is purely mathematical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    I would like to know what type is Wym123, if it is not a secret? It must be strong logic (?) and intuition and rather perception than rationality? I guess one of the the two: ENTP, INTP. I don't mind to mistake I just want to know!!!!!
    I think I am an INTj because I can definitely see my strong Introverted Thinking dominating me.

    I absolutely cannot stand idiocy, which is refusing to be logical about a matter. It is very different from not being knowledgeable, which I don't really mind, and I can quite friendly when I notice it, as long as that person doesn't act like an idiot (as I defined it). If I realize that I am incorrect, I would very gladly retract my statement and if I said something offensive, I will gladly apology if I deem it fitting. I also keep my ideas very precise and know when I do not know something because my ideas become "fuzzy" and it gives me a very strange feeling of "I am not sure." I am quite surprised that other INTjs, especially tcaudilllg are not like that, and that makes me doubt my type or their type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Somehow I am not suprised about the position of rmcnew, I can understand where it comes from, I have been there. I think all the positions are true but from different perspectives. And that is why it is not worth arguing really. I see it as everyone protects his strongest qualities and all types have got something very special and beautiful about them.
    People can definitely hold certain opinions about things but I do not believe that all opinions/positions are equally correct though I cannot provide a deductive proof of this. One of the ways I justify this point of view is: let's assume that everyone is equally knowledgeable about everything. Wouldn't it be logical that everyone would come to the same conclusions about everything and that there were no disagreements? Hence for every problem/question there is usually only one conclusions that everyone would agree on and differences in opinions is the result of differences in knowledge, and hence differences in assumption. However, it is clear that not all knowledge is require to come to a conclusion because the scope of the problem in question could be very limited. Hence, there is usually (but not always) a small subset of knowledge that is relevant and the one who is holding the most assumptions that are in agreement with this set of knowledge is probably drawing the best conclusions. Hence, certain positions are better than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    If we shall leave rmcnew alone because his type is not defined yet, then I would say that INTJ is a practician. He does not produce and does not need to go deep into theory, he can take any existant abstract theory/idea and take it apart and play with it until he does something different out of it, so abstract theory should not really bother them and thus qualifications do not mean a lot. It is like a gift which you perfet with practice. May be not all INTJs are that clever but some can be very intellegent ind respectful in htier professional field without degrees and qualifications.
    I am very curious about how INTjs are. Though they say that INTj like to analyze, I think what they mean is, INTjs like to understand things and formulate conclusions that will bring about a new understanding. I don't think they do not like to play with frameworks and take them part and use them in weird and nonsensical ways. They do like to formulate frameworks and try to explain almost everything that puzzles them (this is something I can't stop doing). What this means is everything that they formulate must be justified and there is nothing INTjs hate more than false knowledge and illogical reasoning. They do not like to come up with crazy ideas that are, well, crazy ideas that are completely irrelevant and stupid (what-if scenarios are not stupid and illogical (they are "what-if" after all) and INTjs like to think about these things). There must be some justification and sometimes this justification can be purely theoretical, but it must be there. I am basing a lot of this stuff according to how I am and if I am not an INTj or not representative of one, then perhaps what I am saying here is incorrect.

    This is one of the reasons why I do not think that tcaudilllg is an INTj but honestly, I do not know enough about Socionics to really make a conclusive statement (here is where the fuzzy feeling stops me from saying wrong things). INTjs definitely like to explain things but I really don't think they like to bridge two ideas together when they cannot be bridge. There is nothing about Special Relativity that can be related to the human mind at all. Trying to bridge them is the same as trying to bridge the the theory of evolution with the explanation why lightbulbs give off light. It just doesn't make any sense. Maybe he is an INTj but he just lacks knowledge. Then again, the way in which he responds to refutation isn't very INTj since he responses can be very "illogical." Then again, maybe INTjs are really like that. I just know that I would gladly accept my defeat, and maybe save some face by explaining my reasoning process, which I deemed it to be logical at the time.

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    I am very curious about how INTjs are.
    Me too.

    I think I am an INTj because I can definitely see my strong Introverted Thinking dominating me.
    I have thought exactly that about myself for years, too, but I might have been mistaken.

    This is my first post on this forum, but I have participated in really interesting debates about this and related problems recently at www.socionics.com.

    About your identity, wym123, I can say that your type is very likely one of two alternatives. Either your type is ENTj, or it is the same as my type. Which type I am in the Socionics model is still not clear, but I'm 100 percent sure that I am an INTP in the MBTI model, and that I am a Five in the Enneagram model.

    One reason for me to be so sure about you being one of two types is that it is so easy for me to understand and sympathize with your perspective. I have just read through all the pages of this subject, and I agree with almost everything you have said so far. A fair summary of the debate up to this point is that you are right and those who disagree with you are wrong. I think it is as simple as that.

    Sergei Ganin at www.socinics.com believes that he is an INTj. Let's assume he really is one. In that case most of the empirical evidence at this stage indicates that he and I are not the same type. So, if SG is an INTj, I am most likely an INTp, and since you, wym123, argue much more like me or like an ENTj, you wouldn't be an INTj either. If one of us is an INTj, I don't think that SG is an INTj.

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    Default INTP?

    I would be not surprised if you both would be INTP. You both logical and you both like to debate, you both have critical minds and continue to argue not due to -winning at all costs but rather because you see in everyting some sort of imperfection, could be due to intuition - feeling the weakest link in theory/statement. And you would like things to be clear and exact. How comfortable you feel with Gamma quadra?
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    How comfortable you feel with Gamma quadra?
    From what I've read and understood so far about the quadras, I think I could belong to the Gamma quadra. But how can one be sure of that? Is there some kind of quadra test? The one thing I can relate most to is the critizing others (Alfa) findings. I think that I'm better at finding flaws and imperfection than coming up with new ideas and solutions.

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    Default Re: INTP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    I would be not surprised if you both would be INTP. You both logical and you both like to debate, you both have critical minds and continue to argue not due to -winning at all costs but rather because you see in everyting some sort of imperfection, could be due to intuition - feeling the weakest link in theory/statement. And you would like things to be clear and exact. How comfortable you feel with Gamma quadra?
    MBTI INTP is not the same as Socionics INTp; it is much closer to INTj.

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    "The one thing I can relate most to is the critizing others (Alfa) findings. I think that I'm better at finding flaws and imperfection than coming up with new ideas and solutions."

    So am I, but despite this, I am not Gamma.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Default Re: INTP?

    Quote Originally Posted by wym123
    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    I would be not surprised if you both would be INTP. You both logical and you both like to debate, you both have critical minds and continue to argue not due to -winning at all costs but rather because you see in everyting some sort of imperfection, could be due to intuition - feeling the weakest link in theory/statement. And you would like things to be clear and exact. How comfortable you feel with Gamma quadra?
    MBTI INTP is not the same as Socionics INTp; it is much closer to INTj.
    No it's not. Both INTPs and INTJs in socionics are MBTI INTPs; there are no INTJs in MBTI really (very rare).
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    "...there are no INTJs in MBTI really (very rare)."

    Not really.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    I don't think I've ever heard of a guy say he was an MBTI INTJ but is now a socionics INTP. A lot of people say that they thought they were INTP in MBTI but now switched to socionics INTJ, however.

    EDIT: And half of the people on INTPcentral say that they are INTJs (socionics).
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    That doesn't mean there aren't many MBTI INTJs.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    No it's not. Both INTPs and INTJs in socionics are MBTI INTPs; there are no INTJs in MBTI really (very rare).
    I have looked through a few profiles and I really don't find too many similarities between Socionics INTp and MBTI INTP other than the fact that they both think a lot. Perhaps you can enlighen me of the similarities. On the other hand, there is almost exact correspondence between INTP and INTj.

    I am not claiming that INTp is close to INTJ. It is possible that INTp is just a weird type and that no MBTI type really corresponds to it in any significant way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    EDIT: And half of the people on INTPcentral say that they are INTJs (socionics).
    I visited the INTPCentral forum the other day and the comments they made about Socionics really demonstrate how little they know about it (Bashing Socionics for its illogical structure is pretty common there). I wouldn't really trust what they claim to be in terms of Socionics especially given that it is very easy to think that INTP is the same as INTp because the acronyms are very similar (the same if you misspell INTp). However, I do honestly feel that a majority of them are INTP thoughts.

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    @wym: ask Cone or Sycophant, for example. They are INTPs in both.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    @wym: ask Cone or Sycophant, for example. They are INTPs in both.
    Hmm.

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    There's quite a number of people on here who claim to be INTjs but, I myself, believe to be INTps. I think the general perception of the J/P dichotomy as organized/disorganized contributes quite a bit to such distortions in self-typing.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Default Article

    I think I am going to start to write an article about dynamics in the psyche as I see it. My vision of interactionof of function within the type is not that difficult to grasp although it may be not as clear and not detailed at the moment. Would love to hear your critics then.

    As regards to INTJs and INTPs - I think they may be really very similar in EGO block both have intuition and both have logic. The difference is only in approach. INTJ has a irrrational approach in analysing things within himself and within intself things) and not interested to persue the role of a critic for others, does he care what others think? - not really, too absorbed in his rational thinking process creating something new (e.g. HUGO) and INTP has a rational approach to build some form of a solid and practical understanding - creative function but he does it through irrational base function of intuition which is tuned into the direction the thought may develop. Idf you take into account the third function of INTP which is which serves - it becomes an animal sense of thought protection or magic orientaion in the world thought development in time . I am not sure if you understand what
    I mean. this difference makes INTP more sensitive to the thought direction of others and make him to persue the critics.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default Re: Article

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    The difference is only in approach. INTJ has a irrrational approach in analysing things within himself and within intself things) and not interested to persue the role of a critic for others, does he care what others think? - not really, too absorbed in his rational thinking process creating something new (e.g. HUGO).
    I seriously believe that those that are uninterested in how others think are not very smart and holding such a policy is illogical. Thus, I highly doubt that INTjs are actually like that but I am not sure (it might be unrelated to type). I know that I myself love reading how others, especially experts, see certain issues and I do try to learn from them. I do not automatically agree with everything people say; every idea I acquire (learn) gets filtered by my own brain with my own logic and knowledge, which I constantly question and evaluate through self-reflection. Maybe this really comes from my education and upbringing, where I have learned that what little I know and can come up with myself is diminutive compared to amount of knowledge that actually exists, therefore this is unrelated to type. This is also why I think there is nothing wrong with appealing to authority when one is not an authority on a matter.

  38. #198
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    Default Re: Article

    Quote Originally Posted by wym123
    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    The difference is only in approach. INTJ has a irrrational approach in analysing things within himself and within intself things) and not interested to persue the role of a critic for others, does he care what others think? - not really, too absorbed in his rational thinking process creating something new (e.g. HUGO).
    I seriously believe that those that are uninterested in how others think are not very smart and holding such a policy is illogical. Thus, I highly doubt that INTjs are actually like that but I am not sure (it might be unrelated to type). I know that I myself love reading how others, especially experts, see certain issues and I do try to learn from them. I do not automatically agree with everything people say; everything that I hear gets filtered through my own brain with my own logic and knowledge, which I constantly question and evaluate through self-reflection. Maybe this really comes from my education and upbringing, where I have learned that with little I know and can come up with myself is diminutive compared to amount of knowledge that actually exist, therefore this is unrelated to type. This is also why I think there is nothing wrong with appealing to authority when one is not an authority on a matter.
    I think it is unrelated to type, probably more to intelligence, curiousity or open-mindedness. None of them are particularly strongly associated with type (though maybe the object of curiosity and areas of open/closed mindedness might be related to type).

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    So am I, but despite this, I am not Gamma.
    How do you know that, MysticSonic?

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    A lot of people say that they thought they were INTP in MBTI but now switched to socionics INTJ, however.
    That's what I have done. I know that I was an INTP in MBTI, and I know that I still am. But now I think I've switched from believing that I was an INTj in Socionics to believing that I'm an INTp.

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