I'm curious. What's your experience?
IEI-ESE Supervision relations (ESFj & INFp)
I'm curious. What's your experience?
Last edited by Cuddly McFluffles; 11-04-2010 at 01:33 AM.
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
My guess is that INFps see ESFjs as insecure people-pleasers, and in such a way as to spend too much energy on efforts that will be largely pointless.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
I've noticed I get along better with ESE-Fe subtypes than with the Si subtype, which makes sense. Still, I find it kind of awkward being alone with an ESE, just have different interests/values, get along a lot better in a group environment
INFp-Ni
I'm IEI married to ESE (for 14 years). So, I mean, yeah he's a somewhat insecure people pleaser and yes he does expend a lot of energy on lots of stuff that's pointless. I try to redirect his energies. But there are plenty of good things too. He supports me unquestionably in whatever I want to pursue. He's extremely responsible, fun, sociable (which is good for me, since I'm such an introvert. but I've gotten better over the years, probably due to his influence), we have a lot of laughs together, his creativeis nice (for instance, he'll remind me that the kids probably need snow pants since the snow is 8 inches, lol) and he'll offer to cook on the weekends (which I love). He enjoys having fun with the family and spending time outdoors in nature which is something we both like. He really needs help with organization and details though. So that is one major weakness of our relationship. He needs to be organized and I don't really care about it and neither one of us is good at it. He's never ever awkward with Fe. He's super welcoming to people, ready to make friends with anyone, I like his easy hospitality. I could go on but I'll stop.
Feel free to shoot me any pointed questions you may have. lol Oh, and yeah I think he's Fe subtype.
IEI-Fe 4w3
yes i think i have seen this relation irl as well as INFp ISFp couples.i would also appreciate comments as well.
One that I know is reaaally annoying. The rest I just feel bad 'cause I feel they'll cry if I don't take the food they keep offering me, or sit down in the seat they got up from for me. But it's kinda cute.
INFp
IEI-Fe 4w3
Well....my mother is ESFj, and I'm trying to pinpoint my type. It's kind of hard, but it'd take a rather long explanation, and I'd rather do that in my type thread. Anyway, she and I don't always get along. She dislikes my lack of motivation/assertiveness (I'm lazy and timid), and I think she's overreacting, and I dislike when she berates me. She is also unwilling to take blame or think logically sometimes, which aggravates the heck out of me. And I can't stand her explosions. Anwyay...... *laughs* You get the point. I'm tired of dealing with her explosions; and I'm tired of having to hear her vent when I certainly cannot lash out at her (the one time I did over the phone, she broke down and said she didn't need that, so she was going to get off the phone); and I'm tired of feeling disapproved of. Even when she praises me for doing something that I don't normally do, it feels like she's telling me I've finally done something right. And I'm tired of feeling like I have to pacify her.I'm IEI married to ESE (for 14 years). So, I mean, yeah he's a somewhat insecure people pleaser and yes he does expend a lot of energy on lots of stuff that's pointless. I try to redirect his energies. But there are plenty of good things too. He supports me unquestionably in whatever I want to pursue. He's extremely responsible, fun, sociable (which is good for me, since I'm such an introvert. but I've gotten better over the years, probably due to his influence), we have a lot of laughs together, his creative
On another note, she teases me a lot; she does it because without fail, she gets a reaction. It's involuntary for me. She can be overbearing in a sense, when she jokes around. Too emotionally strong. I try to get her to dial it down a notch or three. I've often been known to tell her to behave. She's better at the practical, but I'm the "straight man" of the two, making sarcastic comments and the like when she's being overly happy. I actually developed sarcasm to keep up with her; she's naturally very spontaneous and witty. Now, I tease my little sister constantly (I reassure her that I love her, to make sure she knows; I'd feel bad if she thought otherwise), so I can be pretty bad, too. I can also be energetic and happy, just not nearly as much as she is. She expects visual/oral responses to things, and she doesn't always get the latter from me. In fact, there are times when she's berating me (which hurts) where I will simply act like I don't give a crap about what she's saying or how she's saying it. I've been known to use nonchalance merely because I believe it will get to her.
Does this sound INFp/ESFj in the least?
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
haha yeah. My ESE is overly emotional also and I've developed a straight-man sort of response to him at times when I feel like he's too much. I've even had to ask him to stop talking on occasion (I've never known a man who talks as much as he does). I think he sees me as lazy and leaving jobs that I don't feel like doing, for him to do. But the fact is, if I don't do something right away it's either because I don't think it needs to be done or I'm saving my energy and I'll do it later. He says that what I'm really doing is leaving it because I know he'll do it. And I say "I don't care if you do it or not, I never asked you to do it so don't do it." and his response is "You don't understand me! I have to do it!" to which my response is "okay, do it then. but don't expect me to become you." LOL It's a Catch-22.
IEI-Fe 4w3
IEI-ESE Supervision relations (ESFj & INFp)
Can anyone give me some examples of this supervision? What kind of things would an ESE do that the IEI would feel the need to correct?
Also, for anyone who is sure of their type what type of feeling do you get from both your supervisor/supervisee? Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.
From my supervisor I get a really clear feeling. It's one of the most noticable relationship:
My supervisor looks awesome, they seem strong and able to help me. I look up to them. Yet at the same time, I can teach them things, since my strongest function is their second strongest. This makes me feel useful to them. Also because we share that function, our communication is perfect. I clearly feel the 'lower' one in the relationship. Often I try to be funny around them, maybe to impress or something I don't know.
As a last note, don't get involved with your supervisor romantically. They seem the partner of your dreams, but you'll always be their slave.
Thanks this is very helpful.Would you say that even though you look up to them overall you are still uncomfortable in their presence? What about the feeling from your supervisee?
Thanks again for the response it was exactly what I was looking for.
In their presence I soon feel protected by a friend. We are clearly friends and on good terms, and the protections comes from their first function, which is my weakest. (It is however a false protection when examined closer, but it doesn't feel false)
So overall I'm comfortable, since it's my personal bodyguard, and not my enemy. It would probably be different if it was someone that I didn't like, but that's unusual with supervisors...
My feelings from my supervisee aren't that strong to be of any help. Although I had a funny experience that is noteworthy. When I initiate talking or explaining something to my supervisee she had this concentrated look on their face. As if she needed to concentrate, to keep up with me. It's especially visible when you initiate telling a story or sharing an experience, it's not visible when responding to a question of their side. It also happened with a male colleague once. Probably it happened more often, but I'm not always analyzing people, so...
I don't look up to my supervisor (SEE), not at first anyway, and it's been the source of much conflict. However, eventually I come to admire and value their input. I'm not sure who gets to the point of respect first, them or me. I definitely need time away from them though.
As for the ESE-IEI interaction, I've observed it although obviously not experienced it. My brother is ESE, and we are quite close. His experiences seem similar to what Jarno describes. He looks to IEIs as mentors, definitely. He has an almost instant respect for them. Some of them have been mutual friends between us.
My IEI uncle and my brother had a mentor-like relationship for years when my brother was a teenager. One thing I noticed is that my uncle would get frustrated with how hard it was for my brother to just do "the right thing" even when he would agree on what it was. "The right thing" always being to follow the best route and fulfill potential, rather than sitting around wondering. IEIs can focus their Fe-passions much better than ESEs. The thing my brother admires about them is their ability to really get involved in something and see it through while remaining calm (from his perspective).
EII
4w5, sp/sx
From my experience, I like her a lot (because she is my wise elder with a lot of Ni aspects to show me), but I don't know how to show her that I like her. (My PoLR is her base.) Our one on one conversations are extremely insightful, when she explains stuff (my base, her creative) She sometimes tries to correct her "base function" language, especially if I ask for clarification. Once I start to act accordingly with my other friends, she sees that there is some obvious weakness being shown and comments critically yet positively to all of us, which is a different feeling than how I am treated one on one, when we can get deeper. Types don't really like the dominant "opposite temperament" use of their creative, so your supervisor will often be disappointed with your use of it. There is EJ - IP tension, especially rational-irrational, and most EJs I loathe. Pick a time to talk when this person compensates with your temperament. I would chose night time, because EJs are more relaxed. Often I respond incorrectly to her, for instance not being in touch like how I was a few days ago. I takes a while to get warmed up. Anyway its nothing romantic if thats what you think. I don't think I could stand to be in a relationship with a supervisor.
what type is your supervisor?
I'm pretty sure Redbaron (IEI) is married to an ESE.
The saddest ESFj
...
EIE.
Suggestions for interacting with supervisor (ESE and IEI)
I work with several IEIs on a somewhat consistent basis. The more I interact with them, the more terrified of them I become. Currently, I suspect one is mad at me and I cannot figure out what I have done wrong. I have said hello to him several times and he ignores me now.
Ni is a difficult function for me, and I am trying to best understand it, and use it with them, but I often feel completely speechless as soon as IEIs come around. I feel embarrassed when I see them and now have gone to lengths to actually avoid talking to them.Can't ESEs and IEIs get along? We both have Ti and Fe! Does supervision have to be so painful? Any suggestions when interacting with IEIs?
Interestingly, I enjoy SLIs a great deal. I find the SLIs I know to be respectful, polite and intelligent. Although I noticed only SLI E3s will try to initiate a conversation or friendship. In regards to supervision, I find myself supervising SLE the most. Their lack of Fi in conversation is bothersome.
IEI's. Can't live with 'em, can't kill 'em.I work with several IEIs on a somewhat consistent basis. The more I interact with them, the more terrified of them I become. Currently, I suspect one is mad at me and I cannot figure out what I have done wrong. I have said hello to him several times and he ignores me now.
Ni is a difficult function for me, and I am trying to best understand it, and use it with them, but I often feel completely speechless as soon as IEIs come around. I feel embarrassed when I see them and now have gone to lengths to actually avoid talking to them.
Interestingly, I enjoy SLIs a great deal. I find the SLIs I know to be respectful, polite and intelligent. Although I noticed only SLI E3s will try to initiate a conversation or friendship. In regards to supervision, I find myself supervising SLE the most. Their lack of Fi in conversation is bothersome.
I actually like IEI's, but supervision can be tough, and in their case, I'm supposedly their supervisor. My SLI father is my supervisor, and in the past, I had a hard time being in the same room as him. We argued a lot. Now, we simply expect nothing from each other and avoid discussing anything but the weather.
You might find IEI-Fe's easier to get along with, because they will be more like your Mirror. In the meantime, your best strategy for dealing with an IEI-Ni might be to simply minimize contact. Politely, of course. It helps to remember that the feelings involved in supervision are not a rational assessment of the other person's worth, and IEI's are often very nice people. As are ESE's.
It's interesting that you mention that. A childhood friend who lives quite a distance is an IEI- Fe. We see each other every few years for dinner, and I feel understood when I am with her in an unspoken way. I think there is an ever so slightly reduced effect of supervision with the Fe subtype, but it is still there. However, I noticed if she ever asks me to fly to meet her, I find myself unable to say no, and wanting to make her happy.
My LIE brother can sometimes hit my Polr- Ni, but I enjoy his company. Most recently I was complaining to him about a bad choice I made and he said: "How could you not foresee this happening? What did you think was going to happen?"
I think you should be direct about how they make you feel. Use your Se, it will work. I don't think any IEI will ignore the fact that they make you feel that bad if they actually realize it.
There was an ESE in my school. I used to smile or laugh at everything she would say. Not to be mean or anything like that, but really because I took everything she said as a joke. One day, as I was doing it, she told me that she felt like I considered her to be an idiot and that it made her feel really bad about herself whenever she was around me. I realized what I was doing, explained to her that I didn't think she was an idiot at all, and then stopped behaving like one. I started taking her more seriously and I have now come to appreciate the "Fe aura" that she brings wherever she goes.
During fights with ESEs, they often cry and say that I think I'm better than other people but that I am not. I will then try to explain that I don't feel like I'm better than anybody. I know that I am! (j/k on that last part lol)
This is EXACTLY how I feel about LIEs sometimes. Arrogant heartless dbags. But ESEs feel that way about us... which is a bit funny to me since most people view me as the opposite I think, but I have been told by a lot of eses that I'm basically too intimidating and domineering and str8 man ish. It's funny how differently people can see us.
That seems rather odd to me. Usually it is the Supervisee who becomes upset out of the blue due to something their Supervisor did or say, because of the PoLR hit.
My mother is ESE-Si, and she is usually the one who is suddenly kind of mad with me at times.
When I am around her, I usually focus on positive Fe. I'll laugh, ask her how her day has been, and generally try to be positive.
Whenever I attempt to talk about possible future outcomes and the like, she kind of shuts down, so I avoid doing that.
But I cannot "control" my Ni entirely, so there are my moments of physical inactivity where I am simply sitting somewhere for longer periods of time, reading something, being lost in my thoughts, or writing something online. This is actually something that bothers her, she will look disdainfully at me at first. When I don't change my position, she'll start complaining I am not doing anything and/or being lazy. I'll smile or ignore her. Then, she gets more angry. Eventually I laugh it off and/or change the room.
Anyhow, what exactly makes you uncomfortable around those people you work with? What about their behaviour or actions "terrifies" you?
I am wondering whether the issues here are actually about Supervision, and instead something related to dynamics outside of Typology.
ESE are different. ESE-Fe Sx is the best, ESE-Fe So is cool, ESE-Si Sp is hard to deal with and always late. From IEI-Fe SpSx (I believe).
This problem remind me of ESE-Fe So whom I had hard time to agree how to put focus to derive to same goal. This person had their own idea how things would run and in the end I left the thing, but I do respect the person.
IEI and ESE- Share your thoughts
Hello IEIs,
I realize I am your supervisee (being an ESE). The dynamic is so awkward!
Could you share what you really think of ESEs? I feel so incompetent around IEIs.
Are ESEs easy for you to read? Do we seem inept in some fashion?
Supervision relations are tough...
Thank you
The ESE people I have known, I've liked well enough. They aren't really scary to me (some types are!) I admire their driven, positive attitudes in some cases and in other cases their style. It depends on the exact ESE :-) I never saw myself supervising any ESEs, if anything they correct me
Supervisors usually really like their supervisees, but it's the supervisees that feel uncomfortable or don't really like their supervisors. If ESEs feel uncomfortable around me, then I feel like I should not be around them too much.
I don't have too much experience with ESEs, but they seem really great to me.
Well to be honest there were ESEs I disliked, because they seemed very slow and shallow, and there were some I kind of liked (depends on the individual), because they were kind and inclusive towards me. I can relate to the topic of seeing something missing within them as their supervisor. Might also be related to ESEs being a very common type for women where I am from, so they often were the "typical" girl to me, who are into fashion, reality tv, make up and gossip (just to be clear, I looove gossip, make up and fashion myself, we acually got some common ground).
My mother is ESE (Fe-subtype) and I love her to bits (she's got the biggest heart and is very tolerant and giving towards me), but at the same time we can have these bitch fights when I get bored of what she talks about and kind of want to show her interesting and "eye opening" things about politics or economy. She feels like I "force" these topics on her. And yes I kind of get the urge to "enlighten" her about some deeper things (excuse me if that sounds arrogant, just as described in the supervision description I actually mean very well). She also feels that I criticise her a lot and even other people noticed that I apparetly do this. And I always feel sorry, when I make her sad because of this. No matter if we fight though, we always make up, because we know we love each other a lot. I have another friend of her subtype and I think that she is a very good person, I get a similar urge with her, but I do hold back when it comes to talking to her about these things. I really like her good-natured heart. She reminds me a lot of my mother.
Another ESE-Si I knew and whom I never liked (though I guess it was more because of individual reasons.. many people didn't like her), was mentally veeeeery slow, couldn't handle my bluntness, and we occsionally got into really loud fights, haha. Sometimes I tried to really hold back on being 'mean' towards her (though she thought almost everything I did was mean and I gotta admit I often was in a way, but even when I tried to protect her once she didn't take it well). I almost never listened to her (oh supervision, haha). At the same time I could feel a certain kind of admiration from her, she really liked the things I did and said, and I could kind of watch her trying to imitate what I do in a way (starting to do photography just as me, getting close to my friends, starting to talk about topics such as politics etc... even my SLE friend noticed) I guess I dislike ESFj-Si more. They seem kind of prude and boring to me (not trying to bash but I usually felt very rejected by some of them, because I was too weird for them).
At school there was another Si-subtype (who was very prude too), who was extremely hard-working and good at school and who was so good at maths. I really respected her for that and even came to her when I didn't understand something. It almost seemed as if I was the "annoying" one in this case, haha. Her HA Ne really shone through, because she kind of tried to project this perfect image, like her whole life was running smoothly and nothing ever baffled her. Everything was 'perfect'. This drove quite a few people crazy, even people from her own quadra.
I guess I can also get the part of supervision where I can see the social value of them a lot. They usually are very popular and gentle towards people and very giving. They are good friends.
I guess when it comes to supervision, it's really about understanding that there are people who just live a different life than you do and trying to accept them as they are.
I would probably never have a long-term romantic relationship with one though. Too much closeness isn't good for both partys, and I do not want the ESE to feel bad about themselves because of me. Trying to keep things light and having fun with them on a superficial level.
P.S.: And I second the statement by summerprincess that ESEs are not scary to me at all and I kind of feel safe in their company, especially when it comes to partys and so on they really feel like safe company.
I also would like to 'destroy' supervision, because I believe I only met my own supervisor once or twice. I actually never approached them and barely talked to them (I even have a conflictor friend, whom I feel safe around in comparison). They made me very angry or made me feel like I had to keep a very safe distance to them. For me it was more a feeling of dislike and that I instinctively shouldn't get too close (I think I probably would admire ENTjs for their efficiency and their ability to get shit done, I also want to get there somehow (am working on it with the knowledge of socionics).. maybe just like ESFjs partially feel about me).
Last edited by dot; 02-18-2017 at 11:07 AM.
I'm very experienced with ESEs, and supervision seems to hold true for the most part. I generally like them and we can usually get along fairly well (from a distance at least), but something about them always feels "wrong" to me. it's like they're always flirting with interpersonal superfluity, and I feel compelled to place limitations on them.
4w3-5w6-8w7
I think the IEI will admire your use of Se, how you are active in the world and how you view it and your energy. Yet ESE will seem to be a bit dumb with time, they are acting out first and think later. Some are brilliant but to really appreciate it you gota to be maybe LII. All those judgement on ethic are outstanding but if you do not value Fe you do not value ESE. Some IEI will not value ESE since they do not have high dimension intuition, being into quantum physics and all that. You probably find a few IEI who admire ESE for the being they are. In the end supervision is a struggle for the supervisee.
It sucks that your Ni will end up hurting ESEs somehow. It's too bad that you can't use Ni to hurt bad people (well except for maybe ESTjs lol). You end up hurting the ones you don't want to hurt the most.
Such is life.
.
Last edited by dot; 09-20-2017 at 09:20 PM.
I have looked upon relations of supervision and benefit both as relations with doubt that tends to have a one-way aspect to them. The supervisors and benefactors see themselves as being able to correct or advise if they themselves have confidence in what they provide (which is not always the case) but the supervisees and benefiters don't normally see it that way unless they're perhaps insecure or feel incompetent and will take almost any advice. The difficulty with these relationships is that goals, priorities and methodologies have little common ground so there is plenty of leeway for criticism and or self-doubt. When both parties are confident and on course, these relationships can be downright nasty......
a.k.a. I/O
IEI/ESE - Supervisor/Supervisee as friendship
I want to give a personal account of Supervisor/Supervisee relationship that was a deep friendship. I'd love to hear if any of you have had a long relationship based on this intertype. Feel free to also ask questions
One of the greatest benefits of learning socionics it that it allows you to analyze and give clarity to your past relationships. Most of us have had long relationships that are no more.
Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards. - Kierkegaard
I (IEI) met him(ESE) when we were both 12 and our relationship ended at 26. We attended school together from the 7th grade all the way up to our senior year in college. We hung out consistently over the period. Always had classes together - hung out most weekends whether together or with a group. I have many beautiful memories of our relationship - we had many "first" experiences together that you do as you grow up. Our relationship was filled with laughter, honesty, and loyalty.
He had a true devotion to me - cared for me - had loyalty that I never questioned.
I initially started the relationship because he was popular and I had just moved to this new school. I viewed Joe as capable, smart and overall a good guy. One thing I never quite understood was why he was so popular. Overall I felt he was unremarkable but I liked who he was.
At times he would use threat of physical force to make me do something that he wanted throughout the relationship. This started very early in our relationship. About a year after we started hanging out - he physically attacked me - I don't remember why - but I probably said something that ticked him off. I didn't understand why he did but a few days later he apologized to me along with his parents(who I also formed a close relationship with throughout our friendship) and we moved on. At the height of our relationship - even though he had many other friends - he and his Family made it clear how valuable and special they felt our relationship was to him and them. I hung with his parents more then mine over that period at times.
As time went on and we hit the midpoint of our relationship, he then began to always point out whenever I did anything stupid, made a mistake, or would constantly express how I didn't know anything about anything. I got the sense he needed to feel like he was smarter and in a position of power. Not wanting to loose a friend - I submitted to him on this...when he tried control my behavior, I would give in. He would always call me stupid when he could. I didn't care as I always knew I was more intelligent and let him have it and assumed the "dumb" role.
I began to submit because it was clear he wanted to be the "smarter/powerful" one in the relationship. I accepted this and actually increased my stupidity around him because it would make him laugh. What he liked about me was my unpredictability, how I always could make him laugh, and the sense of loyalty to him. I held the "Power" in the relationship for the first half - and he displayed none of this behavior.
I was attracted to his warm friendly demeanor, popularity(he increased my my social hierarchy), and his ability to know when I was in a bad mood and how to make it better.
He made it known that he was more physically capable and that any time he could beat the hell out of me. At times when he wasn't happy with what I was doing or going to do he would initiate with threat of physical force. He also at times would do it when I said something he didn't agree with. Getting close to my face, threatening posture, dead seriousness in his eyes. Although I wasn't afraid of him, when he would threaten violence, I would back off from whatever it was as I knew fighting him would end the relationship.
On the last day of our relationship, I was particularly upset at his verbal abuse that day, and while we we were out with mutual friends I decided to lay in to him. I did it front of a few other people because just before I said it I knew it would be the end. I had wanted to say these things for years. It doesn't matter what I said - but it was truth, honesty about all his flaws, I hit him right where I knew he would MOST HURT. He didn't react and asked me to take a drive to talk. We got in the car and got out in a field.
Before I knew it, he had knocked me out and beat the hell out of me.
I didn't press charges - I knew it was time to move on.
He seems LSE and one with personal issues. Report him because a bully will do it to someone else and that next person may not survive......
a.k.a. I/O
This has nothing to do with socionics. That person seems dangerous and highly problematic. Report him and stay away.
This is a very sad story. I'm glad to hear that this Relationship is over.
Maybe next time you can try put an end to such relationships as soon as they become abusive. Never just "move on" from somebody putting their hands on you.
@Pydex
That's interesting. Are you sure in ESE for him? I think he could be SEE too. I've interacted with both types for long periods of time. The one who tends to use physical aggression more often is SEE.
ESE use aggression when they loose their temper or as in creating some drama, but usually are not physically aggressive (though, male kids can be usually aggressive, especially any S). About feeling smarter than others, I think both do it (ESE and SEE), but SEE could be kinda aggressive about this while ESE is more about pushing verbally onto ppl and try to convince others that their pov is correct because they know what they are talking more than you (sometimes they are right sometimes they are not). Whatever his type is, thanks for sharing.
On a side note, I've had observed the IEI/ESE relationship in person between two family members, the IEI is always arguing the ESE pov and the ESE just ends up rolling eyes and changing topic to avoid further discussion. They seem to have a common ground when they are criticizing someone else. lol
When the ESE criticize or attempts to talk about the habits of IEI (usually about health), the IEI gets furious, arguing in loud voice and slamming doors. The ESE usually take care of ppl doing the food and similar, but the IEI always have a complain about ESEs lack of attention to fulfill IEI wishes.
Last edited by Hope; 11-30-2019 at 03:32 PM.
Pydex, your story doesn’t sound so much like a Supervisory relationship so much as an abusive one.
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