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Thread: can we have one more topic on Fi versus Fe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    In the situation with the student, I would probably say or do something to aleviate the situation, subtly put the class in their place by making them realize how immature they're being. If the student being laughed at wasn't totally mortified I might flash him a grin so he knows I'm on his side and he shouldn't take the situation so seriously. I think standing there with a sad expression does more harm than good. No one feels any better. If he's a total outcast, I might eat lunch with him too if it was practical. I wouldn't bring up what happened. It's irrelevant, and he needs to understand that. I've learned the hard way though that this can TOTALLY backfire and it's often best not to get that involved or show him that much attention.

    I think Fi is a lot more than empathy. Fi is about what people's best interests, not just their emotions. That's rather shallow. Fi is caring about other people's position. Fi also cares about how other people's needs and wants... where they are in the situation and what will become of them... their overall position.

    Anyways... I am quite empathic AND I have Fi. I feel pain when others feel pain, and I am even more aware of other people's best interests, and I think about their positions. Remember what I tell my 6 year old about kids who pick on him? "Honey, tell him it hurts your feelings when he treats you like that and nicely ask him to stop. Remember, when people are mean it's because they're afraid of something. That kid was probably mean to you because he's afraid that people will like you more than him or that you're smarter than he is. If you are mean to him back when he's mean to you, it will only get worse. If you treat him like people like him and he's smart, he may see that there's nothing to be afraid of, and he might stop being mean."
    just to be clear... what I was talking about is actually Fe, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MySaviour
    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Quote Originally Posted by MySaviour
    I hate you for others reasons.. don't worry.
    I know you do and I know why you do and suggest that we extend the ignoring to the forum. I don't mind reading your responses, but things of this nature can really stay between you and me.
    Wisen up.

    But yea, /ignore: on.

    Bye.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Edited for gayness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi_infp
    Unhealthy IxFP's will have trouble with their inferior Te, never finding the perfect love, because it doesn't compare to the ideal in their minds.
    just thought i would highlight this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Ok, let me take a shot at as a function of empathy:

    I feel great empathy for people to the extent that I literally feel their pain. One example: someone in class acts like a total idiot and people laugh- I cannot laugh because I'm embarrassed. I pick up that emotion. This happens regardless of whether or not I like the person. I would feel the same empathy for a killer who is mobbed by the crowd or mistreated. It's not that I try to, it just happens.

    I know there is more to Fi, but I will just throw that out there for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    This is not
    I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    I'll be happy to stand corrected, surely, but let me ask this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicky
    Fi: The second function of the ENFp is Fi, by which subjective feeling substantiates itself through various ethical processes. With this function, it is possible to deconstruct and disassemble various levels of emotions, feelings, and moods in order to gauge a sense of their inner workings or how they habitually function. Probably the most powerful aspect of Fi is the forming of a subjective value system by which one uses to connect to others through a maintained and refined view of moral right, wrong, and good; other important features of this function include the ability to word statements and express emotions in the most concise and ethical manner that could be implemented to appeal to the ethical processes of others. Being an introverted function, Fi has an active ability to self-sustain itself and moves actively between an subjective emotional world located in the future and past in order to sustain itself as an active function.
    How would this be possible without a great deal of empathy? Don't I have to actually experience emotions in others to be able to deconstruct and disassemble them. I do relate to this very much, especially when I observe the interplay of my and and my ethical framework is constructed like this, albeit with a dose of rationality brought about by getting older and less idealistic (and more jaded, but that's not a bad thing). I'll have more, but I would be curious to hear about other Fi - dominant types. It seems odd to try and look at Fi as one singular function I'm thinking right now. My Fi works so closely with my Ne....hm....I don't know. I will join the club of the confused, but I insist on the term Fi-ing for lovey-dovey behavior in the chat! Don' t mess with that!
    What Kim origionally stated could very well be a good example of Fi, and I am not sure why there was some disagreement other than I think that some of you are confusing it with Fe specifically on the account that she said that she feels the suffering of others. The problem with that is that to feel the suffering of others is not specifically and ethically an introverted or extroverted thing, it is a general ethical thing and all ethical type do it essentially. Although, the diffrence between introversion and extroversion in this instance is whether the ethical type is morally accepting the demise of someone who is hurting on account of how the crowd feels about the hurting of an individual or whether it is a deeper personal thing. In other words, the collective ethics of others or personal ethical analysis of a situational context.

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    Or another way to look at it, Fe will try to get others to feel a certain way in a situational context and Fi will usually attempt to assert itself above others in a specific situational context before considering what is collectivelly felt about a situation..

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    Or another way to look at it, Fe will try to get others to feel a certain way in a situational context and Fi will usually attempt to assert itself above others in a specific situational context before considering what is collectivelly felt about a situation..
    YAY!!! It makes so much sense! Fi wants to hold everyone else to it's morals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    Or another way to look at it, Fe will try to get others to feel a certain way in a situational context and Fi will usually attempt to assert itself above others in a specific situational context before considering what is collectivelly felt about a situation..
    YAY!!! It makes so much sense! Fi wants to hold everyone else to it's morals.
    Exactly!!!!

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    Funny how it's always the same people having issues with others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Funny how it's always the same people having issues with others.
    Who having issues with who?

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    Edited for gayness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    Thanks for citing this info! I read so much but never keep track of any of it and so can never go back and reference anything of what I say. =( Thank ya for the references!

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent


    As Secondary
    They may be misperceived for the quasi-identical types (Humanist and Conservator with the dominant introverted ethic) for their strive for good relations with other people, very mild and comfortable manner of communication. However, there is a difference: both Lyricist and Mediator are emotionally active and even often try to awake emotions in other people. By contrast, Humanist and Conservator rather strive to suppress excessive emotions, to release other people from redundant, unnecessary emotions.
    The part I bolded is EXACTLY how I make the distinctions between Fe and Fi. INFj/ENFp's BOTH constantly give this kind of advice: "You look depressed, you should really get out of your rut. Negative emotions aren't good for you. They will lead you deeper into your depression." What the hell???? I was just in one of my MOOOOODS! Suddenly, I'm depressed??? HuH? I go in and out of moods and am prone to dramatics and maybe with their Fi they see something I don't, but for the most part, I'm just being a "normal" NiFe. *shrugs* Yes, there is a personal best I can aspire to, but that doesn't mean eradicating my Fe mood-iness. Arg, having an INFj mom and an ENFp sister...I'm traumatized.



    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    ]From Rick's Site
    internal activity of objects: internal processes, mood, emotional activity and arousability, emotional content



    Contents
    Love, hate, sympathy, antipathy, feeling of ethicality or non-ethicality of relations, human qualities, desire etc.

    Manifestation
    Dividing people into "ours" and "theirs"; improving relations with "ours"; revealing people's qualities; looking for permanent and stable relations; relations are like a game where "ours" understand rules without explaining, while "theirs" will play badly even being given a detailed explanation.
    Another great explanation/observation. Fi is CAUTIOUS. Fi is keeping an eye out for trespassers. The evil doers.
    That is a pretty good example of how Fi dissects, analyzes, and makes distinctions between moral right and wrong.

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    flesh?
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    wow, what a cool link!
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    Quote Originally Posted by maizemedley
    The part I bolded is EXACTLY how I make the distinctions between Fe and Fi. INFj/ENFp's BOTH constantly give this kind of advice: "You look depressed, you should really get out of your rut. Negative emotions aren't good for you. They will lead you deeper into your depression." What the hell???? I was just in one of my MOOOOODS! Suddenly, I'm depressed??? HuH? I go in and out of moods and am prone to dramatics and maybe with their Fi they see something I don't, but for the most part, I'm just being a "normal" NiFe. *shrugs* Yes, there is a personal best I can aspire to, but that doesn't mean eradicating my Fe mood-iness. Arg, having an INFj mom and an ENFp sister...I'm traumatized.
    I am afraid this might not be that simple. I have often noticed this irrational moodiness in myself as well, and felt confused when others pay attention to it: -I look sad? I guess so. I am rather inclined to believe in Hugo's new theory, you do not control you base function:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Let me take the example of an INTj. I believe the functions are as follow:

    Subconscious functions from strongest to weakest (left to right):

    > > >


    Conscious functions from strongest to weakest (left to right):

    > > >


    I believe for all j types, all rational function are subconscious, and irrational functions are conscious.

    What do you think of this theory? Does it hold truth for you as it does for me from my personal experience?

    I do believe my base function is subconsious, because I use it without realising it. However the creative function is consciously working.
    http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...?p=53233#53233

    Generally it does seem to me that INFPs want to attract attention to themselves (Se as dualseeking, whereas INFJs do not, Se as PoLR.) INFJs cannot controll their feelings, in a sense our internal emotions controll us, whereas INFPs carefully control their (external) emotions:

    They enjoy baiting others in a playful manner in order to create an easy and tension-free atmosphere. At home INFps can be very frivolous and capricious, showing great stubbornness in getting what they want, sometimes creating dramas and scenes. These emotional outbursts are usually short and disappear without consequences. Generally they have very flexible emotions which they control consciously.

    Similarly if you look at the behavior of the duals of the types. ESTPs do both according to the theory and my experiences pay more attention to the emotions of their "colocutor".

    When in conversation, ESTps always show self-restraint and tact. They generally interact in an open and friendly manner, always showing positive emotions. They do not like to openly express their opinions. During interaction ESTps always try to show that they are paying full attention and that they understand their interlocutor very well. One of the ways they do this is by asking many questions concerning personal problems or opinions. They do this with masterful tact and delicacy, therefore gaining other peoples trust very quickly

    Strangely enough I have often found even wonderfully polite and friendly ESTp attempts at "gaining my trust" rather too intrusive of my privacy.

    And yet, to some extent I can recognize your examples of INFJ/ENFP behavior, since we can be so strongly influenced by our internal feelings, it is necessary to try to somehow keep them in check - and thus we may give advice that is of no use to those who can control their feelings as they desire.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    I would like to mention a few things.

    Can anybody explain what does it mean ISFJ - holden caulfield?

    To XOX:
    May be you are a different type since you have a lot of and you said you judge?
    I wonder what type is Maizemedley?
    I would agree with what Rmcnew said. We can consider and as a dimension, where is deep waters and is a waterfall.
    .......... Waterfall or deep waters can be different depending on the person(healthy/ill, intellegent/retarded, etc...) That is why I do not agree with some of Hugo/socionics.org discriptions (like -is cheerful and is excellent this and excellent that...///~~~!!!) Both functions are ethical and can feel pain and etc.. but it is all relative to other factors (e.g quadras).
    I agree with Transigent that it is hard to pick just one function. It is all associative like colors, different functions give different shades to each other and that is why feelings and reactions to any particular situations can be different. It does not mean that id do not appreciate the descriptions on the whole (some more than others). You can call it being cautious in understanding if you wish. But I am not very cautious in what I am saying or doing -I am direct and that is why (like somebody (forgive me my poor memory for names ) already mentioned) not eccepted in some circles because I am driven by my own value system. As regards to share people for my and not mine - it is not as simple as it sounds and I would not say that about . I know who is capable to understand me and who not but it is a principle of quadras; people tend to get closer with those who understands them. If you talk about healthy than he will never exclude anybody and will try to teach all unless people will exclude themselves -free choice!

    The last, I would agree with the Hugo theory but not without a second thought. What is it cocsious and subconcsious exactly? If you have got the knowledge of socionincs or insight: how much the info is conscious?
    Yes, I might aware when I show my good bad emotions or when I speak sinserely and open my heart -yes I do but when we discuss the info/subject I naturally talk out my opinion -without realising that my opinion is not a simple reports of facts but comes from the way I feel . I am not aware of it and focuse on the subject but the ESTP picks up on internal feelings and start to criticise me simply becuase the internal feelings are not allowed and perceived by ESTP as me being critical. Like shut up, nobody ask your opinion, it is not your business...etc. If you know ESTP's PolRL (weakest function) is . So i can not really open my mouth without thinking how on earth I have to formulate my thought? She actually agreed that it is my big disadvantage (opening my hear and saying how I feel!) and she is going to help me with that during supervisions. Is it a good enough example to support hugo's theory? Is ESTP constantly conshciously aware of her weak and that's why protecting it? Does she really knows what hurts her? She said to me what bothers her: why do put so many things in the pot instead of being simple and constructive.She even said: how do you formulate your research question?(her second function is ). She wants a structured unemotional report!
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    Default Re: Hello

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    She actually agreed that it is my big disadvantage (opening my hear and saying how I feel!)
    What? Disadvantage? Tell the ESTp to shut up.
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    Thanks to FDG for emotionall support. If you know isfj type you would not expect them to get in a row with authorities but stay cool and show your emotional strength and stability, consistency of your belief system can silently drive the opposition mad.
    I still cannot understand what is holden caulfield -is it just a name of a person on socionincs.org or it is a new nickname for the type? I am a hard/slow headed and need more detailed explanation, sorry for inconvenience. I would say Conservator is OK but Moralist is even better. I am going to describe names of types using associative socionics later.
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    Default sick ISFJ?

    I personaly do not see a connection but I can assume that people of the same type can differ a lot because personality is not just the type and good and bad characters can be an any country, culture, type and etc.
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    I've always thought of Holden as an IxTP. He's always complaining about how people don't understand him, how most people appear fake, and wondering why he can't express himself to others.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


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    i think CS's external emotion comment is of value. ixfps usually change people's emotions to the advantage of all whereas ixfjs seem to feel like they're are violating the sovreignty of the other person's affective state so to speak. with exfxs the lines are more fuzzy (in terms of describing the difference)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    i think CS's external emotion comment is of value. ixfps usually change people's emotions to the advantage of all whereas ixfjs seem to feel like they're are violating the sovreignty of the other person's affective state so to speak.
    And, I think Pedro-the-lions comment is of value. We do look for the time when it's appropriate to try and influence people's emotions so that the WHOLE feels gooood. Whereas, yup it's so true, the INFj (I don't know about ISFj) feels like influencing another's emotional state is intruding. However, the IxFJ's do give you advice on how to cope with the internal feelings that they see emanating from you. They don't use external emotions to influence your emotional state like the IXFp's would, but they do use reason to influence your emotional state. I see a difference there...

    with exfxs the lines are more fuzzy (in terms of describing the difference)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    ...what about as appearing cold and ENFps always said to be warm and enthusiastic and caring?
    I've thought about Fi and Fe, and I think I know what people might mean by "cold". Fi doesn't express emotions, at least not directly. It expresses them via actions. I'd say that we rarely express our love or hatred in words; and if we do, we often seem to do it in a way that's funny or OTT (perhaps because that makes it less "serious", and therefore easier).

    ENFPs are bubbly and warm and expressive and all that, but we're not actually expressing any of our emotions, are we? We're expressing our mood, our sense of possibilities, our excitement, yes... but "love/hate"? Not really. Even if we hate someone, we'll try to restrain that hatred rather than expressing it fully. The reasons are the ones Lenore Thompson described in that text which implied quoted.

    It's interesting to compare my secondary Fi with the secondary Fe of ISFPs. I mean, us ENFPs are the outgoing, bubbly, "dramatic" ones, right? And ISFPs are quiet and restrained, aren't they? But in my experience, ISFPS are expressive in ways I'm not. For example, they can cry before others. It's no big deal for them, it seems. The thing was sad: therefore they cried. End of story. Similarly, they seem to be able to just put their arm around someone and say they like him. From what I know of ENFPs, I'd say we're less likely to be that straight-forward about it. If we tell someone we like him, we won't really tell him we like him... we might say it indirectly, like "hey, this was fun, let's do this more often." Or we might do it in a way that's purposely OTT and funny. Fe people seem to feel really at home with emotions. INFPs seem to almost enjoy and celebrate their moodswings. ENFPs merely endure theirs.

    As for empathy vs sympathy... interesting idea. Sounds plausible. In my own experience, people with Fe as 2nd function have a certain flair for social interactions which I totally lack. Like, they seem to know who likes/dislikes whom, etc. As if they "sense" the interactions or emotions themselves. What I'm good at is putting myself into someone else's shoes, trying to see things from their perspective. If I'm able to do that, then I'm able to sympathize with someone. If not, then not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Thanks to FDG for emotionall support. If you know isfj type you would not expect them to get in a row with authorities but stay cool and show your emotional strength and stability, consistency of your belief system can silently drive the opposition mad.
    I don't know honestly what's the best tactict with ESTps. I know for sure that with an ENTj the only thing to do is to be direct, open and straighforward about the feelings; but probably an ESTp would go into full mode and have a really really bad reaction. So go on with the passive-aggression.
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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

  36. #76
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Here's my take on the matter:

    : open conduit, free exchange of emotions and ethics evaluated in terms of comparison with own emotions and ethics, in touch with the emotional network of the world, open to ethical opinions

    : selective conduit, evaluates emotions and morality according to its own subjective ethical values, forcing opinions, assumption of values, application of personal ethics in the real world

    The way I see it, all the functions are the same:

    Extroverted functions: Hold everything in balance. Try to compare X of others with own X to see which X is the most objectively true.

    Introverted Functions: Try to tip the balance. Compare own X to others' X to see if others' X is "right."

    Intuition: abstract systems, world with fuzzy boundaries
    Sensing: concrete systems, straight, clear-cut boundaries
    Feeling: emotions and ethics
    Thinking: logic, causation
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  37. #77
    Olga's Avatar
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    Default My perception

    Positivism-negativism is not a dimension of socionics yet.
    There is a description of negative and positive qaulities of types but we should not generalise it and perceive type as more negative or more positive. Any type can be sick or healthy and this dimension is interesting in a way that at some point we shall be able to define and say: I am a healthy ISFJ or on the opposite.

    However, we could consider such dimension as selflessness and selfishness or optimism and pessimism. I would expect some tipes to be more selfless (givers) or selfish (takers). Optimism-pessimism could be related to temperaments (e.g.melancholic or sangvinic).

    I would expect those with strong to be more givers than those with strong . It will probably also depend on association with other functions and dimensions - it will be different in quantity and quality. Why I think this way?

    - are more preocupied with their emotions while with their feelings. Strong is a mirror, a surface of a quiet deep water -it absorbs like a sponge the info and take it deep (that is why it should be deep waters not shallow!). I have read about ISFJ (socionincs.org, physical descriptions by Gulenko) that they stare at people- they are concentrated and frozen while they absorb. Then they feel either euphoric, happy or disgusted -and this is how they develop their value system. Their role is to teach/share the morals/experiences and the action/example is a better tool than words.

    -has always a loud background noise of their emotions and that is why they are busy to express themselves rather than to take in.
    they need a relief from thier overflooded feelings. They are probably more harder/louder in expressing their anger and is softer and rather avoid negative situation than express the resistance outwards. It takes extra breath...sigh.

    Every type has got a different tool and can not be eaqually strong in and at the same time... or can be.... but have a preference to deal with situation in accordance with his base function. Anything else?
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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