An INTj profile
Do INTjs find this profile accurate: http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html
I am actually interested in hearing what isn't accurate about the profile when it comes to describing you. It would make things easy to read if each specific item could be placed in list form.
I don't find anything in that profile to be inaccurate.
INTj Mathematician -- "What, me worry?"
"As intelligence increases, happiness goes down. See, I made a graph. I make a lot of graphs." -- Lisa Simpson
i don't find it to be inaccurate either. it does seem more formulaic to me now which is part of the problem I have with mb in general. I think you are approaching the whole subject incorrectly however :/ what are you trying to accomplish?
Some INTjs in this forum have said that they find MBTI INTJ profiles to be more accurate than MBTI INTP profiles. I am curious why that would be the case because there appears to be no way to explain that. Well, the first step to figuring out an explanation is that I need to first find out whether that statement is even true.
Hmm. Your statement that MBTI is formulaic is very interesting. Precisely what do you mean though?Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
I read the whole text and searched for things I don't agree with. But at the same time I came across so many truly accurate things, I just had to add a few in the post. (You don't have to read them)
Don't agree:
"but to have a point of view of his own rarely seems relevant!"
I usually have a point of view. Sometimes a rather strong one. My opinions can be changed and influenced with non-contoversial reasoning. Also, my point of view can often have two sides. (I might understand both parties).
"the argument may even be made that "points of view" and "opinions" are irrelevant since only objective truth counts. "
Objective truth usually doesn't exist. Everybody's right in their own way.
" In this sense, INTPs preference for intuitive perception (rather than action) with respect to people results in them resembling a chameleon. The INTP can fit into many different modes of behaviour, even contradictory ones, in order to get into the mindset of the other person."
I do have different modes, but not to that extent. The main thing is not to leave a wrong impression.
"INTPs typically have an acute awareness of the passage of past times. Sequences of past events can assume a remarkable solidity in their thinking, while most INTPs have very good memories."
My memory is extremely conditional and therefore very bad. I never remember things that don't fit into any systems. I never remember an indifferent answer to a question I have asked, I never remember numbers (often not even my own age), never words in foreign languages (10 years of studying Russian doesn't even help me understand basic conversation).
"Hence, INTPs are often drawn to dissonance"
I hate the sound where the pianist seems to have fallen asleep on the piano chords. Absolutely hate it.
"The INTP despises the attempt by the filmmaker to influence his emotions and is more likely to sneer than cry."
I really like cry-sceens, but only when I watch these movies alone. This way I can let out some negative energy and cry as much as I like. I am less likely to cry about real-life things. (very effective method)
Freaky! So accurate!
"He must become the composer, the solo performer, the genius scientist who makes the unique discovery."
"If you see someone smirking and laughing at some private thought, without any obvious reason, he's probably an INTP."Happens more often than you'd think. I never tell my jokes to half-strangers. They'd look at me funny.
"Corners of rooms, table tops and cupboards may become cluttered with objects, but while they don't move they remain effectively invisible and are unimportant."
"When he visits a place, whether new or already known, his Si function gives an overriding concern for the atmosphere or mood of the place."
As a summary, I found it to be very accurate and I think that the false things can easily be explained with the fact that I am INTj in MBTI system. :wink:...smirk... And also with the fact that I am IXTj in socionics.
Kristiina (in case the log-in was unsuccessful)
EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
E3 (probably 3w4)
Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!
Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/
Blah, I think this profile is too specific to draw any overarching generalizations about what overall is in the profile that fails to describe other INTjs. I am going to try something else.
I am going to do a comparison between the INTJ and the INTP using information from http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ_car.html and http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP_car.html. I would love to hear which set of characteristics INTjs associate themselves more.
Disclaimer: This is my interpretation and by no means do I consider myself to be authoritative. If anyone thinks I have made a mistake, I'd love to hear it. Please be blunt and cruel because only then is the point clear.
INTJ - Defining characteristics in Green
-Able to absorb extremely complex theoretical and complex material
-Driven to create order and structure from theoretical abstractions
-Supreme strategists
-See the global, "big picture"
-Love difficult theoretical challenges
-Bored when dealing with mundane routine
-Value knowledge and efficiency
-Have no patience with inefficiency and confusion
-Calm, collected and analytical
-Extremely logical and rational
-Natural leaders, but will follow those they can fully support
INTP - Defining characteristics in Green
-Love theory and abstract ideas
-Truth Seekers - they want to understand things by analyzing underlying principles and structures
-Value knowledge and competence above all else
-Have no desire to lead or follow
-Dislike mundane detail
-Not particularly interested in the practical application of their work
I believe the items in Black belong more or less to both INTJ and INTP and perhaps the author overlooked those characteristics and left them out in the sets. I also think "Not particularly interested in the practical application of their work" is an overstatement. INTP can be very interested but it is simply not the first thing that comes to their mind (they are unconsciously drawn to understanding first).
Same - INTJ in Blue, INTP in Red
-Original and independent / Independent and original, possibly eccentric
-Value their own opinions over others; -Strong insights and intuitions, which they trust implicitly / Trust their own insights and opinions above others
-Future-oriented / Future-oriented
-Creative, ingenious, innovative, and resourceful / Usually brilliant and ingenius; Creative and insightful
-Original and independent / Independent and original, possibly eccentric
-Have very high standards for performance, which they apply to themselves most strongly / Have very high standards for performance, which they apply to themselves
-Work best alone, and prefer to work alone / Work best alone, and value autonomy
-Reserved and detached from others /
Live primarily inside their own minds, and may appear to be detached and uninvolved with other people
Comments:
In my opinion, INTJs, when faced with a "puzzle," are naturally attuned to coming up with possibilities (Introverted Intuition) and applying them to solve the puzzle (Extraverted Thinking). This type of mental process implies that INTJs are naturally inclined to "external" puzzles such as actual problems in real life. INTPs on the other hand, when faced with a "puzzle," are naturally attuned to figuring out the puzzle, demystifying its features, logically analyzing it (Introverted Thinking), with the help of some very creative pattern-matching brainstorming (Extraverted Intuition) in an effort to generalize and understand (nothing gives more of a feeling of understanding than the formulation of a one-theory-fit-those-data-and-only-those-data generalization). This type of mental process implies that INTPs are naturally inclinded to internal or purely theoretical puzzles such as, "Why isn't there a correspondence between INTj and MBTI INTP when theoretically there should be? How do you explain this? (fully even considering the possiblity that maybe theoretically there shouldn't be and there is a mistake)." I once thought that the MBTI INTJ profile fit me more than INTP one because at that point in my life, I was constantly faced with situations that required me to come up with creative resolutions; I was doing INTJ things and maybe that's why people here find the INTJ profiles fit more. Real-life, in general, simply demands more Extraverted Thinking than Introverted Thinking and tends to bring out the INTJ qualities in INTPs. What this means is that that INTPs are fully capable of doing an INTJs thing and INTJs are probably just as capable of doing INTP things, the brains of both types possess the same brainstorming (Intuition) and logical reasoning (Thinking) wiring. My understanding is that INTj are just the same as INTP in my description and if you are an INTj you should be an INTP. I really want to hear how other INTjs feel about all this? Refutations with sufficient grounding are always welcomed.
It's interesting that when I reflect at what I have been doing in this post, I see myself coming up with one theory after another, after another (I don't know if anyone really recognizes). These are all theories... they are unverified and have no merit outside of intellectual contemplation.
Oh, when I say theory, I do not mean scientific theory but maybe scientific hypothesis (as a student of science, I find myself compelled to make that distinction).
briefly, in your mind, what is the difference between the two types? Or, what difference would you like to prove, etc?
if you're just doing personal recon, that's fine, but... I'm not really sure what you're angle on things is.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I took a list of characteristics from that site and laid them out. I hope INTj can pick out whether they find themselves associated with the INTJ set of characteristics or INTP set of characters.
Then perhaps they can reflect on the paragraph I wrote and whether they truly believe that's how their mind is inclined to operate.
I just want a very good explanation as to why INTj have said that they identify more with INTJ descriptions and INTj's participation on this might give me the data to come up with one.
Don't all Introverts do that? I do.If you see someone smirking and laughing at some private thought, without any obvious reason, he's probably an INTP
My guess is because they are so similar.
I mean, the INTP one that you listed sounds pretty good for me, too
But if you want to get really nit-picky about it, go ahead.
If you want to say that all INTPs are INTjs, then that is really up to you. I don't see a direct correlation in that way, though, but this isn't my area of expertise. I think what you said about different parts of your life bringing out different aspects of your personality --- that's very true, and very much important.
Perhaps other "INTjs" are the same as you, in that at different times in their lives, different aspects of each (INTP / INTJ) profile fit thembetter. BUt I think it would be rather foolish to try to have a deinitel prototype for each type, because I don't think many would exactly fit into any one catagory.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
overly simplistic. don't get me wrong though, i have the same problems with socionics but to lesser extent. i don't think it has anything to do with theory though but rather with the mindset of the adherents of mb. for example personality typing for job interviews and such can be misused (and IS misused) quite frequently.
The profiles are indeed similiar overall but each type contains very defining characteristics. First example, INTPs prefer to come up with explanatory frameworks whereas INTJs prefer to come up with ways to use those explanatory frameworks.
How so? I somehow get the feeling that you are not being reflective enough about your actual predilections for your appoaches in dealing with "puzzles" or for the "puzzles" that naturally interests you.
Theoretically it should be the case. If empircal data in practices show that it is not the case, then there must be something wrong with the data or with the theory.
To admit that that's true is to concede that you are really an INTP but are forced to assume another type just to live through life. To be clear as to what I am mean, here is an example. I have mentioned that I lack motivation in doing things. However, I somehow never lack motivation in thinking and analyzing and it is almost impossible to shut my analytical mind off. However, in dealing with the real world, I suppose I have learned how to direct my analytical attitude towards the real world and solving "puzzles" pertinent to the real world. On the other hand, INTJs probably find pure intellectual comtemplation to be a waste of time and only use their intellectual abilities in solving real world "puzzles." The real world usually doesn't miss pure Introverted Thinking so INTJ may never even do the INTP thing but they are still probably capable at it. Perhaps the only time they will use Introverted Thinking is if they are forced to take a Philosophy class in college to fulfill the "core" requirements.
Actually, if INTjs here said that INTP as well as INTJ profiles fit them and that different aspects of their lives bring out different profiles, then I am content with the explanation. I know that I tend to be an INTJ when I am working at my job (I work as a computer programmer for some of my professors in college, creating original solutions to augment their own work), but everywhere else I am an INTP. However, I really haven't heard anyone say that. Most INTj here have implied that INTP profiles do not really fit them, not that they are sometimes INTP, sometimes INTJ.
- don't you mean, that you somehow get the feeling that I am not being reflective enough... etc - for you. I think you are assuming that everyone is as passionate about this as you are, and, if they are not, then they can't be *insert type here*
How so? I somehow get the feeling that you are not being reflective enough about your actual predilections for your appoaches in dealing with "puzzles" or for the "puzzles" that naturally interests you.
I was under the impression that there are several flaws with the theory, especially in regards to MBTI / Socionics conversion. Explain what you mean, though, because I don't want to imply unduely that you are attempting to prove something that is already a known.UDP wrote:
If you want to say that all INTPs are INTjs, then that is really up to you. I don't see a direct correlation in that way, though, but this isn't my area of expertise.
Theoretically it should be the case. If empircal data in practices show that it is not the case, then there must be something wrong with the data or with the theory.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Re: A INTj profile.
I just skimmed the profile. It seems pretty generic to me. Many of the sentences would fit any NT personality.... but then again, I didn't read in-depth... I just finished a few beers too.
On second thought, ignore everythign I have said.
INTj
"... the present is too much for the senses, too crowding, too confusing, too present to imagine" - RF
Re: A INTj profile.
I just skimmed the profile. It seems pretty generic to me. Many of the sentences would fit any NT personality.... but then again, I didn't read in-depth... I just finished a few beers too.
On second thought, ignore everythign I have said.Most of these profiles are very generic. About half the sentences you can ask, "what do you mean?".
what is a puzzle exactly? I have more questions than I'd care to write here. For one, I won't even finish solving a puzzle with too many "possibilities". Then there will be a wide range of correct solutions, depending which possibilities you treated as facts. Then none of the solutions is really correct. Like solving x+y=100, while you don't know either x or y.
EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
E3 (probably 3w4)
Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/
Re: A INTj profile.
I am defining a "puzzle" as basically something that provokes the use of your logical mental functions. A problem in your life or work that you must deal with is a "puzzle." A question or a dilemma that is bothering you is a "puzzle." My understanding is INTjs are drawn to "internal" puzzles whereas INTps are drawn to "external" puzzles. However, I believe both types are capable of both types of puzzles although, INTjs are probably better at "internal" puzzles whereas INTps are better at "external" puzzles. Oh, you can describe a puzzle has being "internal" or "external" by the type of thinking that you need. Introverted Thinking for "internal" ones and Extraverted Thinking or "external" ones.
As for the second part of the post, I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you can clarify.
I've been meaning to ask you this for a while:
if INTP= INTj
does this mean that
INTJ= INTp?
or how do you work that out?
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Theoretically, it should be the case. The functions of an INTJ are the same as that of an INTp.
Of course, the whole point of this thread is to discuss whether that is actually true.
so basically, you want a direct, certain transition from MBTI to Socionics
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Err... no. I don't want anything. I really have no preferences as to whether such a translation exists or not. What I am doing is seeking an answer to a question. The question is, given that theoretically, there is a way to correlate the types, hence produce a translation, is there actually a translation in reality? If there isn't one, why isn't there one? I think you should really read the entire thread because it appears you have totally misunderstood.
I just wanted a clear response. thank you.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
If your intent is to see whether or not there is a correlation between mb and socionics then why not start a thread that asks people (not just intxs) what they think they are in each?
I would recommend going to intuitivecentral.com because I had this discussion there long ago. Somewhere lying about there is table that correlates mb with socionics on that site. Basically they gave socionists mb descriptions and asked them what they thought that would be in socionics. Limited to be sure but perhaps it will help in a minute manner.
I see what you are doing and it makes sense to me. Getting feedback first from the actual individuals where there is an actual question on type. I have read the INTj vs MB's INTP description. I'm curious too what exactly it is that INTjs find similar about the INTP and INTJ descriptions and what they find differs in comparison to their socionics description.
I know an INTp and someone I 'think' is a female INTj. Well she has told me she is and she has a psychology degree but I still have my doubts. I can't help but wonder if she just wants to be an NT. She suffers from severe depression so its really hard to tell either way. I found she jumped to weird assumptions about things like she would see me talking and laughing with someone at a party and assume we were the closest friends. When, in reality I didn't even like the person but its a party and being snotty would only serve to ruin both our times.
Hmm...I am going to do a post about her and maybe you guys can help give me some feed back to type her....
Polly
ENTP
Actually, I was slightly imprecise on my last post about my intent. I am not interesting in examining all types so it is debatable whether I am even considering a translation. I am only interested in INTjs. Specifically, many INTjs in this forums believe that they are INTJ and I am just confused why that would be the case. Of course it would help if I can also get data for INTps in that if INTps find themselves associating more with INTJ profiles, then it is more likely that there is correlation between INTj and INTP.
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