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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Default Power, violence and socionics

    Current research about bullying points to a few important areas. Most importantly, the typical profile of a bully includes:

    * Strong will.
    * Low anxiety levels.
    * Necessity for domination.
    * Need for social significance.
    * Little empathy toward their victims.
    * Strong sense of hierarchy, combined with aristocratic righteousness.
    * Little emotional control (i.e. quick to anger).
    * Suspicious attitude (i.e. interpreting other's actions as deliberately malicious).

    It is quite interesting to note that the concept of bullying itself is an analogy to the erotic attitude of an "aggressor". By itself, it is not really a malicious act, but the exercise of Se applied to an interpersonal relationship. This means, in a few words, that the bully perceives the situation as a (power) game more than anything else.

    Everyone needs training when it comes about using their unique talents and bullies are not an exception. They are gifted with an acute perception of the relationship between cause and effect, which is the basis for power, and they are inclined to experiment with those around them.

    Their acute sense of social "weight" and pragmatism makes them to choose the weakest possible victim, in order to minimize the danger of retaliation, which gives them an strategical advantage. The bully thus experiments with different strategies of domination. Physical violence is rarely used, as the bully well knows that violence is a public, punishable act. They also know that verbal and emotional violence are rarely punished, so they try subtler methods of domination such as induced social isolation by means of humiliation. This strategy exploits the human tendency to separate people into groups, "us and them". Since the victim belongs to a foreign group, one with undesirable characteristics, people tends to avoid any kind of identification with the victim, as it offers no benefit and a potential risk of rejection. Once the victim is isolated, this is, openly ignored and/or rejected, the risk about abusing the victim is drastically reduced, often approaching zero, thus leaving the door open for any hidden sadistic tendency among the members of the dominating group.

    Here it is interesting to note that such strategies are also used in other events, such as lynching. It is well documented that victims are always in a strategical weak position: they are outnumbered, socially isolated by some reason and when murder occurs, they are unable to defend themselves, i.e. unarmed and/or tied.

    I'll continue later.
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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    It sounds like you are describing an aspect of the Gamma quadra.

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    Bullying? I'd straight ahead go to torture and killing, much more fun and effective.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Some Se types share those traits, although they are not so obvious in gamma Fi dominants IMO, in fact SEEs Fi can be quite charming.
    Last edited by 1981slater; 06-27-2009 at 10:54 AM.
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    Isn't bullying like an ST thing, more extroverted, ESTx? I have a hard time imagining other types more like this. I can see some ENTxs being considerably degrading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Isn't bullying like an ST thing, more extroverted, ESTx? I have a hard time imagining other types more like this. I can see some ENTxs being considerably degrading.
    I don't think delta STs harass people, since bullying is related to Se IMO.

    Unhealthy NTs can surely be a pain in the ass
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    Wrong.

    Bullies actually have high anxiety, because bullies never bother people that are actually self-confident. They go after the weaklings. They won't ever fuck with people that could actually fuck with them back. So they are insecure pussies.

    Little empathy, well yes.

    Bullies don't have a strong sense of hierarchy. They tend to be pretty naive about our external social systems of power and how it's balanced IMO. Bullies inevitably get caught, unlike true sociopaths- because the weaklings eventually latch onto the guardians and protectors of society so the bullies get in trouble. If the bully can keep the person isolated, then yes- they can keep on bullying and using them as a punching bag. But that doesn't happen because most victims wise up and realize they have to do something about the problem, whether it's getting more friends or standing up to the bully themselves.

    Also, violence is socially acceptable in MANY cases. If a truly sympathetic person finally stands up to a bully, then they will be socially rewarded. Because it's like FINALLY you had balls and gave that jerk what he deserved. Go you! There are limits to this of course but eh a lot of what you're saying just isn't true.

    Also society doesn't tolerate bullies OR victims for very long. Only the truly gifted are able to ascend the strong/weak duality. Both are weird, 'socially off-putting' behaviors in society that everybody tries to correct.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Shut up bullets and doves and let the man speak.

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    Mikemex makes some sense to me, Bullets and Doves does not. Where does this leave us?

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    The propensity to bully is not type-related; it's weak character-related. The way a bully bullies another person is probaby type-related, but the act of bullying is not.

    Someone w Se [or any other element] in their ego can use it just as easily for good as for evil.
    Last edited by female; 06-27-2009 at 07:48 PM.

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    ELAINE: Why do they call it a wedgie?
    GEORGE: Because the underwear is pulled up from the back and ... it wedges in..
    JERRY: They also have an atomic wedgie. Now the goal there is to actually get the waistband on top of the head. Very rare.
    ELAINE: Boys are sick.
    JERRY: Well what do girls do ?
    ELAINE: We just tease someone until they develop an eating disorder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Mikemex makes some sense to me, Bullets and Doves does not. Where does this leave us?
    Mikemex is...your dual? and rockets and crows is...mimosa's identical?

    that's socionics!
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  13. #13
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    What exactly in the things Mikemex writes make sense to you? I am not sure I have understood what his point is at all. He isn't exactly crystal clear... I see that he talks about what makes bullies bullies, and I think he's wrong (B&D understands better, imo). Second of all, it seems he accuses Socionics aggressors of being bullies, of lacking empathy and of attacking the "weakest" in society. These are horrifying stereotypes, and I hope I'm wrong in thinking this is what he says. Please clarify if I have misunderstood. If not, please don't support him, as it only shows your lack of understanding of Se.
    On the contrary, as I already said, I think he describes Gamma quite well, more specific, gamma Se quite well.. At least in terms of the gamma SF's. In short, it's displaying the characteristics of Fi understanding inter-personal relationships and maneuvering them from a gamma Se perspective to extracite the person so that they are excluded, have no friends, and therefore easy targets. I suppose this removes threats so that primarily the ENTj can aquire *things* better. This self-serving attitude can even be put under the guise of being moral, such is the nature of gamma Fi with Se when you consider it being in tow with Gamma Fi.

    I suspect mikemex's wrong to give it a whole Se label. But I see it re above, hence why "some" of what he says makes sense to me.

    So that's pretty much what I see. Can't really comment on bullets and doves in so much detail as I think he's taking the matter a bit too personally and talking from a more so uneducated stance, but maybe he does understand things better than what mikemex may be trying to say, but, can't think of how else to phrase it re b&d, sorry.

    But those are my views on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    On the contrary, as I already said, I think he describes Gamma quite well, more specific, gamma Se quite well.. At least in terms of the gamma SF's. In short, it's displaying the characteristics of Fi understanding inter-personal relationships and maneuvering them from a gamma Se perspective to extracite the person so that they are excluded, have no friends, and therefore easy targets. I suppose this removes threats so that primarily the ENTj can aquire *things* better. This self-serving attitude can even be put under the guise of being moral, such is the nature of gamma Fi with Se when you consider it being in tow with Gamma Fi.




    Wow. Okay. Wow...

    Any asshole can exclude someone... anyone can do this. W.T.F. Which gamma SF type pissed in your corn flakes? How is being able to exclude someone a specific personality's trait?

    I think that what songsofsappho said is very good-

    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    The propensity to bully is not type-related; it's weak character-related. The way a bully bullies another person is probaby type-related, but the act of bullying is not.

    Someone w Se [or any other element] in their ego can use it just as easily for good as for evil.
    Anyone can do these assholish things, but it would probably vary depending on type. Anyone can use any function for good or evil.

    I'm still not seeing any proof for this besides "LULZ ITS SE THEY R BULLIES!" and with no reasoning, proof, anything. It's just a malicious opinion.

    It's ironic that the Se valuers are defending this and saying it's bullshit, while the Ne valuers are basically attacking it. You're getting it straight from the source here. We are Se valuers, you aren't. How can your judgment be more accurate?

    God this is such ignorance. This is like racism. Se users are just different, you're attaching something terrible to a process just to be able to point the finger at something.
    SEE-Fi 9w8 sx/sp

  15. #15
    Creepy-

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post




    Wow. Okay. Wow...

    Any asshole can exclude someone... anyone can do this. W.T.F. Which gamma SF type pissed in your corn flakes? How is being able to exclude someone a specific personality's trait?
    I did. Most of his rambling in this thread about gamma Se is directed at me, as bait. It's to be ignored.

    I think that what songsofsappho said is very good-
    Thanks

    As for the rest of your post: +100000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    On the contrary, as I already said, I think he describes Gamma quite well, more specific, gamma Se quite well.. At least in terms of the gamma SF's. In short, it's displaying the characteristics of Fi understanding inter-personal relationships and maneuvering them from a gamma Se perspective to extracite the person so that they are excluded, have no friends, and therefore easy targets. I suppose this removes threats so that primarily the ENTj can aquire *things* better. This self-serving attitude can even be put under the guise of being moral, such is the nature of gamma Fi with Se when you consider it being in tow with Gamma Fi.

    I suspect mikemex's wrong to give it a whole Se label. But I see it re above, hence why "some" of what he says makes sense to me.

    So that's pretty much what I see. Can't really comment on bullets and doves in so much detail as I think he's taking the matter a bit too personally and talking from a more so uneducated stance, but maybe he does understand things better than what mikemex may be trying to say, but, can't think of how else to phrase it re b&d, sorry.

    But those are my views on it.
    Mmmm...have you ever met an ISFj? They're quite shy and anxious, especially when they don't know you that well. I'd say I'm much more likely to be a bully than any ISFj, they're more likely to be overanxious about stepping on other people's toes.

    Anyway, as far as my experience goes, ESTx types tend to be the majority of bullies. There's no easy functional reason that explains why it has to be so, except the combination of extraversion, negativism, and ST. Which is not enough to settle such a delicate matter.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  17. #17
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    I grow tired of superficially politically correct people like Blackcat who can't see the practical way in which socionics works, nor give any credence to the socionics logics behind this reasoning. Except instead to reduce it to meaning that a gamma has "pissed in my corn flakes"

    Perhaps you should consider that this behaviour does not make someone an asshole, instead it is you who's presuming this behaviour makes someone an asshole, in turn, turning it into a slanging match before any discussion can even take place.

    Meh, I take a break from this place for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I grow tired of superficially politically correct people like Blackcat who can't see the practical way in which socionics works, nor give any credence to the socionics logics behind this reasoning. Except instead to reduce it to meaning that a gamma has "pissed in my corn flakes"
    The socionics logics behind this is bullshit. This isn't even logic. It's twisting and turning a theory in the wrong way, getting something pretty much false out of it. That isn't practical. How am I superficially politically correct? I know as a fact that not all Se users are bullies, that Se doesn't relate to bullying, and I also know that it doesn't relate to socionics. I just have common sense.

    Perhaps you should consider that this behaviour does not make someone an asshole, instead it is you who's presuming this behaviour makes someone an asshole, in turn, turning it into a slanging match before any discussion can even take place.
    Off topic. The point is to get the message. Excluding someone? Making them appear weak? Verbally abusing them? How is this NOT assholish behavior? Plus that point is off topic and irrelevant... and I don't even understand what is getting accomplished by doing this or pointing out the word usage.

    Stop trolling.

    This is one of the issues I have with typology in general, people take it too far and associate people's character traits with personality traits.

    Again there is no proof... and there never will be. Since this is unrelated to typology.
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  19. #19
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    Before I sign off, it's not directed at you. What is it with you ethical types? Get over yourself!

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    Good God. Just because you say it's nonesense does not make it's nonesense. Explain Fi and Gamma Se, and if you do it correctly, you'll reach the same conclusion as me.

    To support this, Expat, who is a gamma, has said that Gamma is the only quadra which experiences personal revenge as a motive. You should consider how this agrees with Gamma and bullying, and also how it fits into Gamma functions.

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    i've seen non gammas portray behaviours like these.

    in my opinion, gammas are not bullies, because i'm gamma, and we get along.

    i think it's just quadra perceptions of other quadras. in my experience, alphas are the worst bullies, ESE & ILE. though i will NOT conclude nor categorize alphas as bullies. that's really retarded.

    o. and i don't relate to mikemex's post at all, though i can see the reason why other quadras may view gammas as bullies.
    however, his post makes some sense. that bullying is an unhealthy manifestation of Se, which does not only have to come from gammas or people with strong Se, but could also come from types with weak Se.

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Current research about bullying points to a few important areas. Most importantly, the typical profile of a bully includes:

    * Strong will.
    * Low anxiety levels.
    * Necessity for domination.
    * Need for social significance.
    * Little empathy toward their victims.
    * Strong sense of hierarchy, combined with aristocratic righteousness.
    * Little emotional control (i.e. quick to anger).
    * Suspicious attitude (i.e. interpreting other's actions as deliberately malicious).

    It is quite interesting to note that the concept of bullying itself is an analogy to the erotic attitude of an "aggressor". By itself, it is not really a malicious act, but the exercise of Se applied to an interpersonal relationship. This means, in a few words, that the bully perceives the situation as a (power) game more than anything else.

    Everyone needs training when it comes about using their unique talents and bullies are not an exception. They are gifted with an acute perception of the relationship between cause and effect, which is the basis for power, and they are inclined to experiment with those around them.

    Their acute sense of social "weight" and pragmatism makes them to choose the weakest possible victim, in order to minimize the danger of retaliation, which gives them an strategical advantage. The bully thus experiments with different strategies of domination. Physical violence is rarely used, as the bully well knows that violence is a public, punishable act. They also know that verbal and emotional violence are rarely punished, so they try subtler methods of domination such as induced social isolation by means of humiliation. This strategy exploits the human tendency to separate people into groups, "us and them". Since the victim belongs to a foreign group, one with undesirable characteristics, people tends to avoid any kind of identification with the victim, as it offers no benefit and a potential risk of rejection. Once the victim is isolated, this is, openly ignored and/or rejected, the risk about abusing the victim is drastically reduced, often approaching zero, thus leaving the door open for any hidden sadistic tendency among the members of the dominating group.

    Here it is interesting to note that such strategies are also used in other events, such as lynching. It is well documented that victims are always in a strategical weak position: they are outnumbered, socially isolated by some reason and when murder occurs, they are unable to defend themselves, i.e. unarmed and/or tied.

    I'll continue later.
    There are all types on the lowest level are those that are basically thugs, on the next rung are those that use psychological manipulation and are usually leaders of thugs -- they don't get into direct trouble because they know how to bully by manipulation, on the highest rung are psychopaths that are really just solo operators but will give the illusion of practically anything in order to gain dominance... they practice an even more powerful form of psychological manipulation.

    Basically the thugs use direct force to bully people, the "bosses" use control of some physical need to manipulate others, the psychopath uses control of some non-physical psychological need to manipulate others.

    For example
    Thug: Give me your money or I will shoot you with this gun
    (Brute Force Approach)
    Boss: You seem to be in need of this money, do something for me and you can have it, cross me and I'll make sure you won't find work in this town.
    (Controls a resource to gain dominance)

    The psychopath would forgo worrying about money, a material and instead just manipulate the person based on their psychology to gain dominance over them.
    (Manipulates your desires as the "resource" to gain dominance)

    ---------------------------------------------
    in high school terms, its different if your from a middle-upper class suburbian neighborhood or the ghetto

    if your from the ghetto its all based on gangs...
    if your from a well to do neighborhood -- the "jocks" are the thugs and the popular douche bags are the "bosses", the psychopaths are the school shooters... yea!
    in the work world this trickles down somehow... the thugs are likely to be the physically abusive husband/police officer/sports player.... the bosses the manipulative narracisstic politician/businessman/etc.... the psychopaths the people who commit crazy illegal things and then everyone is all like "They were a well respectable member of the community".
    Last edited by male; 10-12-2009 at 01:07 AM.

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    B&D pretty much got it right. I don't feel the need to bully anyone... at all. Seems like a waste of time to me, and it's totally immoral. It really serves no purpose but to harm. And as Mimosa said above Se egos aren't bullies... God that's just adding to the retarded stereotyping that happens here constantly (like saying all LIIs are physically weak, lmao). How is bullying directly related to Se? The people that are agreeing it is aren't even giving any reasons.

    Where did you get the information for your OP? That doesn't seem like the typical profile of a bully at all. B&D got that part correct.

    Relating bullying to an Se ego is just silly. It seems to be more of a character trait than anything, a weak character's trait. A lot of the bullies that were in my school had bad home lives or bad social lives, or were just really really insecure. They had to make themselves appear stronger for some reason, they had to make others feel terrible. I don't know how this relates to Se.

    I was bullied all through school. These weren't all Se egos, there were people of all types that did it.

    This is like... a false correlation. And a highly offensive one at that.
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    I didn't make this stuff up; I've simply observed it over time and reading about the topic confirms my observations:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.focusas.com/Bullying.html
    Who bullies?

    Students who engage in bullying behaviors seem to have need to feel powerful and in control. They appear to derive satisfaction from inflicting injury and suffering on others, seem to have little empathy for their victims, and often defend their actions by saying that their victims provoked them in some way.

    Bullies often come from homes in which physical punishment is used, where striking out physically is a way to handle problems, and where parental involvement and warmth are frequently lacking.

    Students who regularly display bullying behaviors are generally defiant or oppositional toward adults, antisocial, and apt to break school rules.

    Bullies appear to have little anxiety and to possess strong self-esteem. There is little evidence to support the contention that bullies victimize others because they feel bad about themselves.

    Chronic bullies seem to continue their behaviors into adulthood, negatively influencing their ability to develop and maintain positive relationships, and can experience legal or criminal troubles as adults.
    Perhaps I understand bullies better than you do. My article is not finished by the way; my idea is to show how the same behavior shows itself at different scales of the society: from bullying at the school to the strategies used by predator politicians at global scale.

    Also, I do not think the correlation is necessarily wrong. I don't imply aggressors are bullies; I'm simply saying that the act of bullying is an unhealthy manifestation of Se. And I'm not talking about simply being against someone, which I believe all conflictors would eventually do, but the organized, premeditated act of altering the victim's chances to retaliate by means of social isolation and/or emotional stress. Winning a strategical position at someone's expense; remember that bullies, in the end, have very little concern about their victims. They don't hate them, they simply use them.

    Here is where I don't agree with you either: bullies are not unsocial, or lacking social skills. On the contrary, bullies are very well capable of putting themselves in a privileged social position, by means of gaining prestige. And whether you accept it or not, people often supports such behavior. If they didn't, how could it happen on plain sight?

    I recommend you reading "The Story of the Bad Boy Who Didn't Come to Grief", by Mark Twain. The Story of the Bad Boy by Mark Twain
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    Yeah I basically agree with Bullets. I haven't had much experience, but it wouldnt seem like a type related thing.

    I don't understand why this stereotype exists because it doesn't really correlate into the system.

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    Perhaps I understand bullies better than you do.
    Perhaps you don't.

    I was only able to raise social ranks when I stopped being a bully or a victim and I instead spiritually transcended those dualities. And the reason why politicians are able to be socially dominant is not because of bullying, but actually the opposite - they've learned to be very empathetic to others in Skull and Bones rituals of degradation. People just avoid pampered, spoiled rich kids that grew up in politically-minded families or they think of them as 'silly'. They don't necessarily follow them.

    Also, I do not think the correlation is necessarily wrong. I don't imply aggressors are bullies; I'm simply saying that the act of bullying is an unhealthy manifestation of Se.
    Please stop it. Mikemex. Stop it. You have no idea what you're talking about. Just knock it off, please. For your own sake. You sound ridiculous.

    Here is where I don't agree with you either: bullies are not unsocial, or lacking social skills. On the contrary, bullies are very well capable of putting themselves in a privileged social position, by means of gaining prestige. And whether you accept it or not, people often supports such behavior. If they didn't, how could it happen on plain sight?
    Bullying is tolerated in pieces of shit organizations, but that's because nobody really knows what they're doing anyway, and so people are easily fooled. But in most places that actually are productive, bullying people is socially suicidal behavior.

    I recommend you reading "The Story of the Bad Boy Who Didn't Come to Grief", by Mark Twain. The Story of the Bad Boy by Mark Twain
    Your perspective that that story somehow defends what you are saying is pretty interesting to say the least, Mikemex.

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    Bullies appear to have little anxiety and to possess strong self-esteem. There is little evidence to support the contention that bullies victimize others because they feel bad about themselves.
    They don't feel BAD about themselves. They feel INSECURE with themselves. They are naive and don't really understand psychology or spiritual growth well at all. Because instead of facing what THEY'RE actually afraid of, they just make themselves the personified fear for everybody else. They play the role as a kind of Ghost or Psychological First Evil that can get victims to indirectly ascend, but don't do any work themselves soooo they are kinda just a nag. If they really were confident and brave with themselves, they'd face things that they actually were afraid of. Without fear, there could be no courage. Bullies just lack a fucking spine.

    And don't say 'they're afraid of nothing!' or anything stupid like that.

    Playful teasing is different than bullying though. Are you sure you're not talking about playfully teasing people?

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