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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    Hi Nicksy!
    Hello there

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Are you still on this?

    /me grabs debrainwashing stick
    I just see your cognition being wired that way. Once. Again. It has no bearing on all the other personality-relevant traits that are more intrinsically embedded into you, which strike the similarity between me, Justin, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    [*]starfall and esper (I imagine very intelligent, all-seeing women who will become oracles when they get old :tongue
    Yes, exactly. I was going to include them, but it felt like pointing out the obvious, or something. But your thought process is my own.

    [*]crazedrat and strrrng (lol... )[/LIST]
    Do tell.


    And pray tell, how are Ashton and I similar? -- aside from the superficially conspicuous combative attitudes towards certain individuals.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  2. #2
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I just see your cognition being wired that way. Once. Again. It has no bearing on all the other personality-relevant traits that are more intrinsically embedded into you, which strike the similarity between me, Justin, etc.
    1. Intelligence fixation
    2. Formal logic training
    3. High intelligence
    4. Large amounts of study and thought in things that I have strong opinions on
    5. Ni subtype
    6. Ex-philosophy major
    7. Tendency to use formal tone in debates

    I'm sure I could think of more. But the first 3 are the important ones, and I think they explain and/or encapsulate your observations better than Socionics .
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    1. Intelligence fixation
    Absolutely irrelevant. No one is complimenting you on logical intelligence -- or lack thereof, monsieur!

    ...what's that? I sense a balloon being inflated -- ah, just Gilly's preliminary tumidity here we go.

    2. Formal logic training
    has no bearing on 'logic', in any practical sense of the word.

    Helium spreading slowly...

    3. High intelligence
    And thus, the balloon has risen, off into the clouds, with you sitting in there, dick in hand.


    (Irrelevant)

    4. Large amounts of study and thought in things that I have strong opinions on
    No bearing on This applies to me, but I'm still agenda.

    5. Ni subtype
    You VI nothing like any Ni subtype.

    6. Ex-philosophy major
    This balloon may pop soon.

    7. Tendency to use formal tone in debates
    Or just a "formal" type of logic in general, where everything is systematized and explained in accordance with the given parameters of a system (i.e. how you always revert back to the paradigm argument against people like Ashton in stickam). Beta NFs aren't exactly concerned with systems as they pertain to the explicitly defined context; that would be TiSi

    I'm sure I could think of more. But the first 3 are the important ones, and I think they explain and/or encapsulate your observations better than Socionics .
    Yeah, except that none of them are reasons behind me thinking you're Ti ego.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Ok, let's hear your reasons.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Ok, let's hear your reasons.
    If you really care, we can pm about it. Although, we've discussed it many times now, so I don't know what you're looking to find out. My initial comment wasn't designed to incite a real argument -- rather, just to make an insouciant observation -- but it seems you're still prone to it. What must that mean?
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    If you really care, we can pm about it. Although, we've discussed it many times now, so I don't know what you're looking to find out. My initial comment wasn't designed to incite a real argument -- rather, just to make an insouciant observation -- but it seems you're still prone to it. What must that mean?
    More than anything that you might be implying :wink:, it's because I care about your opinion. I really don't doubt that I am at least Beta NF, and I am fairly sure that, of the two, EIE fits better overall.

    As for your idea of what an Ni sub VIs like, well, this is half the problem: people who are the same subtype don't always share certain characteristics. Remember, we're talking about 1/32 of the population; you think that big a cross section are all going to have discernible physical similarities that would in some way correlate to type? Your Te is failing you, Nicky

    And by the way, my reference to "intelligence fixation" is less about my actually being intelligent, and more about my self-image of being an intelligent person, the kind of person it has led me to become, the things it has led me to do, what it causes me to emphasize in my self-presentation and personal development, etc.

    @ the paradigm argument: if you understood the theory behind Model A, or my real rationale for what I was saying to Ashton in those debates, you'd see that it has less to do with me being a Ti type and more to do with disclarity resulting from incompatible frames of reference. Expat makes similar arguments with regards to Ashton's approach, so I hardly see how that makes me any more a Ti type than Expat.

    @ DJ: I scored 99th percentile in SAT Math, and have distinguished myself academically in more than one course of study related to abstract reasoning, so I think I deserve at least two more "areas" :wink: Not that you have to agree. But it's true.

    *selfpat*

    Actually I think my interpersonal intelligence would probably rank below both of those on my personal scale, at lease in relation to what I observe in other people.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Which correlates rather well to me being a Ti type and you being an Fe type.

    Wait a second...
    lol, no functional correlation to multiple intelligences.

    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    I'm not disputing you, but SAT/ACT math is incredibly easy and doesn't necessarily imply strong mathematical aptitude.
    Yeah, it is. And many kids score much higher than their natural ability warrants, through formulaic learning, memorization, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    sigh. Gilly, probably most of the people on the forum can say the same. I think a large proportion of the forum is or was "academically smart," doing well on these sorts of tests.
    Yeah. It's not too hard to take natural intelligence and utilize it to easily succeed in the banal academic world.

    Is this the part where I brag sigh

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    More than anything that you might be implying :wink:, it's because I care about your opinion. I really don't doubt that I am at least Beta NF, and I am fairly sure that, of the two, EIE fits better overall.
    Yeah, but I guess it just comes down to the fact that we still harbor different conceptions about how the types work. You seem to attribute a lot of your behavioral stuff to the quadra values, which I see as being more correlated with your enneagram type and general life experience. EJ temperament makes no sense whatsoever to me, based on your energy levels and demeanor; IP is only more plausible because it's irrational. But whatever.

    As for your idea of what an Ni sub VIs like, well, this is half the problem: people who are the same subtype don't always share certain characteristics. Remember, we're talking about 1/32 of the population; you think that big a cross section are all going to have discernible physical similarities that would in some way correlate to type? Your Te is failing you, Nicky
    Well, I was thinking about the look in the eyes, cause that's pretty much consistent. I don't want to get into some subjective stream of associations, but comparing you to other Ni-ENFjs, it doesn't seem to fit. Not to mention the more internally controlled demeanor they exhibit, which you clearly don't.

    And by the way, my reference to "intelligence fixation" is less about my actually being intelligent, and more about my self-image of being an intelligent person, the kind of person it has led me to become, the things it has led me to do, what it causes me to emphasize in my self-presentation and personal development, etc.
    I knew what you meant, cause I related to it And I have wondered how much relation that kind of thing has to Ti agenda types, but that seems miniscule overall. Again, this way of going about such a fixation is much more easily chalked up to being a 3/4 variant, possibly with so in the stacking.

    @ the paradigm argument: if you understood the theory behind Model A, or my real rationale for what I was saying to Ashton in those debates, you'd see that it has less to do with me being a Ti type and more to do with disclarity resulting from incompatible frames of reference. Expat makes similar arguments with regards to Ashton's approach, so I hardly see how that makes me any more a Ti type than Expat.
    I understand the theory, and also that Ashton likes to debate in an often circuitous manner, consistently referencing the same "self-explanatory" things, whilst remaining obstinate to others' opinions. But, I was referring more to the way you were explaining the concept (last time I was in stickam): it literally seemed like you were outlining the explicit context of a structure, not simply explaining its predications or whatever. Like, "these are the rules and how the variables manifest, so how can you make this correlation?"

    Actually I think my interpersonal intelligence would probably rank below both of those on my personal scale, at lease in relation to what I observe in other people.
    Same.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  8. #8
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    who else has noticed that the people who never shut up about Ashton are the ones accusing others of having fixations on him and "his" theories?
    Last edited by bg; 06-07-2009 at 02:36 PM.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I don't know about the interpersonal aspect for me (seems right for Gilly, mostly), but I agree on the linguistic aspect. There's a definitive difference between being able to read people well, and being able to apply that knowledge effectively in interaction. This discrepancy is mainly what causes my doubts about my ability in this area.
    Which correlates rather well to me being a Ti type and you being an Fe type.

    Wait a second...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  10. #10
    Enlightened Hedonist
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    erm? I know that Archon sees himself as fighting a crusade for Model X and sees himself as some sort of martyr for the cause. It may hurt him to have his bubble punctured and to untie him from the stake he has tied himself to, but he is currently free to post here...and there is even now a dedicated subforum for fringe Socionics views now.

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    I have an idea:

    why don't ppl who subscribe to some other form of Socionics post on a forum about that, or in the alternative typologies section here??

    my only problem w Steve etc (I can't include Nick in this) is you can't argue/discuss Model A Socionics w em, (what this forum's about,) bc they're arguing from a different theoretical framework... the arguments never get anywhere... and usually end up degenerating quickly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    I have an idea:

    why don't ppl who subscribe to some other form of Socionics post on a forum about that, or in the alternative typologies section here??

    my only problem w Steve etc (I can't include Nick in this) is you can't argue/discuss Model A Socionics w em, (what this forum's about,) bc they're arguing from a different theoretical framework... the arguments never get anywhere... and usually end up degenerating quickly...
    Because the basic concepts of socionics (functions, information elements, duality, intertype relations,etc) (as developed by Aushra) DO touch on something extremely legitimate, however I and some others think that the particular model developed from it, and how the functional manifestations are characterized does not do reality justice. We have moved in a direction that, in our view, carries with it a more pervasive consistency.

    You can discuss Model A socionics with me - Model A itself isn't terrible, it's more the characterization of the functions by people who use it that I find off the mark.

    My main point of departure from Model A is the idea of subtypes, and I believe that non-quadra functions are not valued and not used. Also, the functions in the super-id bloc are instead strong and valued and not weak the way Model A portrays it - the only difference between the "strength" of the superid functions vs the strength of the ego functions is that the ego functions are "honed, precise, and focused" while the super-id functions are looser, more raw, and, in the case of the agenda, generalized.

    I view duality as the dual's ego functions "reign in" and "focus" the other dual's superid, and NOT that the dual provides some functional awareness that is lacking in the other dual (as in ISFps somehow providing comfort and making ENTps take care of their health)

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