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    Default Temperament can be misleading in Socionics

    This post was taken from the end of the post "Similar forum members," in response to a discussion between Nick and Gilly... I added to it a bit here so that it stands by itself.

    ---

    That temperament is as influential as it is in English-speaking Socionics--bc of various factors: MBTI's popularity in English-speaking countries, its emphasis on temperament, and Cartrette's old 16types info page, which emphasized sanguine, choleric, etc--is unfortunate.

    I wasted years mistyping myself in Socionics b/c Ej temperament descriptions portrayed someone I thought of as a bit too stiff, too mobile, too focused, etc, to be me. (e.g. I was comparing myself to a lot of the blabber-mouths I know--obvious Ejs--running around doing 300 things at once, and thinking to myself, "that's not me..." You know, some days I just want to chill in bed... These descriptions make Ejs sound like caffeinated robots... Or like my Te-ESTj Dad.)

    Perhaps the problem is not with temperament itself, but with the current descriptions..? Idk

    Regardless:

    "Temperament" can be influenced by a shitload of non-Socionics factors, e.g. depression, medication, motivation, disabilities, ADD, etc. It's also the probably easiest Socionics-related personality characteristic to fake/consciously control. (my friend goes quiet at parties just to get hos.)

    For this reason, temperament can be an unreliable indicator of Socionics type.

    Subtypes do not explain temperament well either... E.g. one could be relatively quiet and still be a Fe-ENFj, (see: above Non-socionics factors,) or loud and still be a INTj. (I met a very communicative Ti-INTj the other day... He is a famous artist... He has lots of self-confidence and is quite talkative, forceful, etc... Not at all like the INTj stereotype of a somewhat shy, nerdy, math-whiz... Although maybe he is that in his free-time. Who knows?)

    Temperament is still useful in Socionics' typing--albeit only slightly... At this point, way too much emphasis is placed on temperament in our community.

    As regards typing, the functions are where it's at... The functions you notice ppl using... In my experience, you need to see and feel and know the functions for yourself (vs. just reading the descriptions of them) to accurately type people.

    This has become more and more clear to me as I have met and correctly typed more and more ppl of various types/looks/energy levels, etc.

    That's the message.

    ---
    from a post below, clarifying:

    Intovert/Extrovert is misunderstood by many people here--and as Socionics grows, it will continue to be misunderstood by even more people.

    This is because the terms are fairly colloquial, and thus mean different things to different people... (E.g. I can be "introverted." I have been told such and think of myself as such sometimes... I am not, however, a Socionics introvert.)

    Same with Rational/irrational... E.g. I can be irrational. (I'm frequently criticized for being irrational... And Ep temperament descriptions fit my behavior better than Ej temperament descriptions.) I am not, however, a Socionics irrational.

    These terminological pitfalls stand in the way of people typing themselves and others correctly.
    And ppl here often fall in them, conflating them with "temperament." (e.g. DeAnte, Winterpark... and me, for a long, long time.) Thus my call for better descriptions, or at least clarification regarding what temperament really is.
    Last edited by JuJu; 06-06-2009 at 07:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    temperament can be an unreliable indicator of Socionics type.
    Static-Dynamic dichotomy is a reliable indicator of socionics type.
    Rational_Irrational dichotomy is a reliable indicator of socionics type.
    Extrovert_Introvert dichotomy is a reliable indicator of socionics type.

    Temperament is compounded of those 3 dichotomies, therefore I think it's reasonable to think of Temperament as a reliable indicator of socionics type. Maybe we(or just you JuJu, or what) need a better descriptions of Temperaments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuturututu View Post
    Static-Dynamic dichotomy is a reliable indicator of socionics type.
    Rational_Irrational dichotomy is a reliable indicator of socionics type.
    Extrovert_Introvert dichotomy is a reliable indicator of socionics type.
    I disagree with your last two points... And this is an important point:

    Intovert/Extrovert is misunderstood by many people here--and as Socionics grows, it will continue to be misunderstood by even more people.

    This is because the terms are fairly colloquial, and thus mean different things to different people... (E.g. I can be "introverted." I have been told such and think of myself as such sometimes... I am not, however, a Socionics introvert.)

    Same with Rational/irrational... E.g. I can be irrational. (I'm frequently criticized for being irrational... And Ep temperament descriptions fit my behavior better than Ej temperament descriptions.) I am not, however, a Socionics irrational.

    These terminological pitfalls stand in the way of people typing themselves and others correctly.
    And ppl here often fall in them, conflating them with "temperament." (e.g. DeAnte, Winterpark... and me, for a long, long time.) Thus my call for better descriptions, or at least clarification regarding what temperament really is.


    I agree with you, however, about Static and dynamic... Once people learn how to recognize static and dynamic, they are on their way to typing correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    I disagree with your last two points... And this is an important point:

    Intovert/Extrovert is misunderstood by many people here--and as Socionics grows, it will continue to be misunderstood by even more people.

    This is because the terms are fairly colloquial, and thus mean different things to different people... (E.g. I can be "introverted." I have been told such and think of myself as such sometimes... I am not, however, a Socionics introvert.)
    So you say that you disagree with my point that "Extrovert-Introvert dichotomy is a reliable indicator of socionics type". Do bear in mind that the thing which i denoted as an Extrovert-Introvert dichotomy is not necessarily the same thing as colloquial-extrovert-introvert-dychotomy. Same goes for the Irrational-Rational dichotomy.

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    I get what you mean, yes.

    The problem is, I believe, for many people, (not you, but many here,) the colloquial = the Socionics... And thus there's lots of confusion as to temperament.

    I'm trying to draw the distinction for people between the colloquial and the Socionics with this post.

    (I'm hoping to help them realize that maybe they're thinking about temperament in a way that's more aligned with the colloquial than the theory.)

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    One must also consider that the functions resolve to dichotomy in a way that socionics type is also defined by dichotomy. I'm Ti ego. Ti is comprised as introversion and thinking into one part, and theory should somehow distinguish between introversion and extroversion, for what would be the difference between introverted and extroverted logic, and when you extract the term of introversion from Ti over to Si, why is there commonality? If no commonality exists, then there is really no base for introversion in socionics. Not necessarily can introversion be described. What certainty does description have in terms of introversion, and can certainty be substituted in terms of static?

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    Dichotomies overall are dangerous, in my opinion, especially the ones that carry over from MBTI. It works for the MBTI system (besides easing typing) because there's a spectrum between, say, Extroversion and Introversion, so you can be any shade of that and fit into a type still. That doesn't translate into socionics because the spectrum doesn't exist in the dichotomies that we use, they are found more in the types themselves. Dichotomies, temperaments, clubs, etc, are used only because they are short-cuts to typing, but they easily can lead people astray and muddy typings. I have to agree with using only functions to type, seeing what is used, valued, etc. There's no other reason to type other ways since this promotes actually understanding the functions and they are what make up types. All of these other superficial details can be a result of other factors that are unique to an individual's life, and have little to do with their actual type.

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    Maybe for some, but not for me.

    Also JuJu maybe Ej doesn't sit well for you because you're an Ne ENFp?

    Also I feel kinda strawmanned in this because I don't even do temperament by introversion and extraversion and in fact none of us evil scheming "Xians" do.

    We go by static and dynamic and rational and irrational

    Ep's are static irrational
    Ip's are dynamic irrational
    Ij's are static rational
    Ej's are Dynamic rational

    then on top of that you have the sub-temperament, which is based on the subtype's mode.

    So as a Ti ENTp I am a Static irrational (Ep) with a Static field oriented subtype (Ji Ep)

    All 8 sub temperaments have their own quirks and behaviors, which as you spend time VIing and non-VI typing you pick up on.

    When describing field and object orients, I prefer Augusta's "introtim" and "extrotim" to remove myself from the folkish and colloquial connotations of "Introversion" and "extraversion"

    So yeah this is a bit of a strawman, seeing as we don't even use introversion and extraversion for temperaments, so if you were pointing this towards us you are wrong in doing so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    Temperament is still useful in Socionics' typing--albeit only slightly... At this point, way too much emphasis is placed on temperament in our community.
    A lot of people here tend to decry the use of temperments without first taking into consideration their role in Socionics and how they affect intertype relations. I think treating temperments as malleable is a guaranteed means of butchering intertype relations.

    For one, how can you disregard energy levels and behavioral patterns as insignificant to compatibility?

    Sometimes people can turn me off solely because of their energy levels and their way of doing things. Like how someone I find really intelligent, funny, and to overall be a pretty cool person can become hard to be around because of the way in which they express their internal traits.

    There won't be anything awkward about it. There won't be tension or annoyance, there's just an overall physical feeling that this person can't “keep up” with my particular pace.
    And that's all it feels like really—a difference in pace:
    noun
    1 he stepped back a pace STEP, stride.
    2 a slow, steady pace GAIT, stride, walk, march.
    3 he drove home at a furious pace SPEED, rate, velocity; informal clip, lick.


    Sometimes friction is obvious and other times it may be more subtle (due to environmental/cultural factors). But if you think that there is no significance between being IJ vs. EP, or IP vs. EJ, etc. then you really have zero awareness of physical compatibility between people.
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    In fairness to JuJu, his VI'ing appears to be quite accurate.

    Seems he was right about polikujm, deante, maybe Bardia, Sirena. There may be more that I haven't noticed, or I haven't watched the forum to spot them all, but off the top of my head I can't think of any he's got wrong. Perhaps others are more informed.

    Of course it can be difficult to take VI at face value, with no evidence that other people can understand for themselves, but at the same time, i've seen a lot of people being so convinced of their types through functional analysis, only to change it at a later date.

    I'm sure the forum is big enough to encompass all methods, or at least VI and model A.

    Seeing something that works is intriguing.

    For my part, I use anything that works for the situation, VI, temperaments, functions, the main and even reinin dichotomies, and imo when one is diagnosing something (type as in this instance), all the diagnostic tools should be considered, and on a forum, various specialists should or would hopefully be available for whatever method(s).
    Last edited by Cyclops; 06-07-2009 at 07:51 AM.

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    I'm not sure what to make of functions. Allow me to explain: yes they are important, but to use as a typing method on the forum? It seems to me that there are so many disagreements on what functions really are, and how they apply to the types that it can lead to more confusion than not using them, perhaps unfortunately.

    I suppose it comes down to what works for the individual in their own lives. Unless all forum members have to adhere to the same school (maybe like socionics workshop), there will always be disagreements. (Of course attaching to the same school doesn't make something right, it just means censored forms of disagreements).

    Octopuslove, it may be worth noting, that a possible solution, which is used by most Russian socionics sites, is to use primarily dichotomies for typing purposes.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky
    Where is that one ultimate picture that all other pictures can be compared to?
    Eh, i'm not saying this to support VI or otherwise, but you can easily replace the word picture with the word function in your question.

    One could maybe even substitue "functions" with VI and picture in your whole post.

    I guess when it comes down to it, I don't care how smart something looks, just as long as it works.

    Maybe the point of discussing socionics is to provide one with a mental work out! But like the last part of your post, discussing anything related socionics has also fallen prey to pissing contests.

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    I would say that ANY one aspect can be misleading if you focus too much on it. You have to look at and weigh every aspect of type carefully, and then decide on a best fit based on the correlation between all the aspects. Also, you have to be open to revising your type as you learn new things about yourself, or find that old self-images were inaccurate.

    Temperament is one thing that can be used to type, but it should never be used to rule out a type. It should simply be one factor among many.

    Does that make sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I would say that ANY one aspect can be misleading if you focus too much on it. You have to look at and weigh every aspect of type carefully, and then decide on a best fit based on the correlation between all the aspects. Also, you have to be open to revising your type as you learn new things about yourself, or find that old self-images were inaccurate.

    Temperament is one thing that can be used to type, but it should never be used to rule out a type. It should simply be one factor among many.

    Does that make sense?
    Yes exacty my thoughts on the matter too! It's simply good practice. People should also do this in regards to more important things than Socionics too!

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    LOL how fitting is it that the first tag for this thread is 'douchebag'

    Reading his posts, I don't even have the strength to bother with him - you have real stamina glamourama (hey that sorta rhymes) to deal with this brick wall. Yikes.

    Some people are worth it, others are not. I think Juju fits into the latter category. Let him continue living on in his delusional world and leave him be.

    He reminds me EXTREMELY of mikemex - another complete nutjob. Self-typed IEE as well. If anything, all I have to say is that I have never quite felt like Juju's EIE typing was correct and thought his IEE one was perfectly fine.


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    eh JuJu and mikemex compete in two different fields...I don't think JuJu is as bad as mikemex (me neither, fwiw!). I think EIE could easily work for JuJu...as for mikemex...I simply could not type him based on his behaviour. He certainly has a certain way of behaving, but I am really not all that willing to try and attribute that behaviour to a particular type.

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    Honestly, I do like how Juju is confident with his skills, regardless if they're wrong or not (hypothetically speaking because I wouldn't know). At least he's trying to really understand something, to the point where he is confident enough in his thought process to actually make some kind of an improvement here... And in the case he is wrong, I believe that he'll probably research some more until he understands it better.

    If Juju is able to accurately type more than half of the people in a group of photos using VI, then to me that would indicate at least some validity in his methods. I think that this matter would be put to rest with a VI challenge of many photos of known types, and having Juju type them. The "Great VI Challenge" .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    LOL how fitting is it that the first tag for this thread is 'douchebag'

    Reading his posts, I don't even have the strength to bother with him - you have real stamina glamourama (hey that sorta rhymes) to deal with this brick wall. Yikes.

    Some people are worth it, others are not. I think Juju fits into the latter category. Let him continue living on in his delusional world and leave him be.

    He reminds me EXTREMELY of mikemex - another complete nutjob. Self-typed IEE as well. If anything, all I have to say is that I have never quite felt like Juju's EIE typing was correct and thought his IEE one was perfectly fine.
    Some things are not type-related though. Juju doesn't seem ENFp to me. He has a lot of Ni. I don't agree w/ most of anything he says either, so I'm not sure if it's his type or just the positions he's taking. I could see mikemex as more ENFp, whether or not I agreed w/ what he said, I could probably see where he was coming from much more than Juju.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    LOL how fitting is it that the first tag for this thread is 'douchebag'

    Reading his posts, I don't even have the strength to bother with him - you have real stamina glamourama (hey that sorta rhymes) to deal with this brick wall. Yikes.

    Some people are worth it, others are not. I think Juju fits into the latter category. Let him continue living on in his delusional world and leave him be.

    He reminds me EXTREMELY of mikemex - another complete nutjob. Self-typed IEE as well. If anything, all I have to say is that I have never quite felt like Juju's EIE typing was correct and thought his IEE one was perfectly fine.
    go fuck yourself.

    You've been posting here for years and you don't understand Socionics at all... In other words, I believe you when you say you "don't have the stamina" for things like reading... It's pretty clear.

    P.S. the reason you think half of the ppl in beta aren't beta is bc you are gamma... "delusions" indeed...

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