LOL. I can only speculate that this typing was based on seeing dee as "alien," in which case it makes perfect sense for him to be in everyone's opposing quadra.Originally Posted by Expat
LOL. I can only speculate that this typing was based on seeing dee as "alien," in which case it makes perfect sense for him to be in everyone's opposing quadra.
EII; E6(w5)
i am flakey
I actually agree with Keirsey INFJ.
Additionally, it makes sense being a Nine.
I am clearly an EII like dee.
Nope.Apart from purely political ones, no
Numbers listed my name as someone who types Liveandletlive as an ESFj. I felt I needed to explain myself because of it. I do not have substantial evidence, which is something I readily admitted. This typing is based off my own interpretation of what I've seen of her and inter-type relationships (Which is the best way to type people, right?).
Then Gilly comes in, attempting to make a witty retort off my comment, so he can garner some sort of win and make his dick feel a bit bigger. He's the one with political motivations as he is absolutely fascinated with Ashy-boy and can't seem to stop thinking of him.
So, really this whole spat was unnecessary and meaningless.
@Expat: People have used the word "intent" and I was referring to that, not because I believe it.
Why would I not care about inter-type relationships? Where have I ever said this? I've said "Its a bad idea to type people primarily by the inter-type relationships". So your comment is a misrepresentation of me and I also know its a misrepresentation of the "model x" crowd. So thats a disagreement in typing methodology, not basic socionics premises. Funny thing is, thats actually what most of these disagreements are about, although there are also differing opinions on elements and behaviors.
I certainly care about what the authors wrote because I'm not an idiot. I just have no loyalty to them and I perceive that some of my "opponents" do.
The end is nigh
You being automaton in the Socionix-hive-mind, is also political.
I felt I needed to explain myself because of it.That means absolutely nothing, it's just a random statement devoid of any proof. Especially since you don't understand even the basics of information elements.
1) Wrong, it's not the best way to type someone.inter-type relationships (Which is the best way to type people, right?).
2) It escapes me, how based on intertype relations she would even be alpha, as she dislikes many of them, and isn't really close with any of them. Can you give names of whom this is based on. Most of her RL friends seem to be betas and deltas, here on board she gets best along with gammas, betas and deltas. Of people here on board, she's closest to me and Implied (who socionix-people don't even type as alpha), and one more of her favourite posters is Expat (neither do they type Expat as alpha). So even by socionix-typings alpha inter-type relations, don't seem that strong.
Last edited by Warlord; 05-14-2009 at 02:36 PM.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
Fwiw, I don't see Archon's actions as being "political" really (not in intent). His actions could serve others' politics, but I don't think that he has a political agenda.
Well I'm not, and thats totally an assumption you're placing on me. You have no clue of my motives and the fact that you feel the need to discredit me based on them illustrates your intellectual lethargy.
Yup, which is exactly what I said you fucking tool.
1) YEP, CUZ I WAS BEING SARCASTIC, REFERENCING ANOTHER THREAD IN WHICH PEOPLE DID IN FACT SAY IT WAS THE BEST WAY TO TYPE PEOPLE.
Didn't see yah stick your little hand up then now did we?
2) From what I know about her, she got along with people who self typed in those quadras (Implied is likely gamma, Expat is Te ESTj).
I do not place much at all in online inter-type relations, however.
Okay, I'm done with this thread. good luck.
The end is nigh
As I have said before. We've yet to witness anything to the contrary. If that's the case, prove it.
If I'm so unaware of your motivations, how come you constantly react accordingly to what I expect them to be.
Yet, you still type someone on that basis.Yup, which is exactly what I said you fucking tool.
No shit? Why are you even replying to me sarcastically, when it was other people, in another thread who said it. A thread where I was critical of that. You're just utter failure at being witty.1) YEP, CUZ I WAS BEING SARCASTIC, REFERENCING ANOTHER THREAD IN WHICH PEOPLE DID IN FACT SAY IT WAS THE BEST WAY TO TYPE PEOPLE.
If Implied is gamma and Expat is delta, according to you, how would that make Liveandletlive alpha? Wouldn't she more likely be gamma or delta then?2) From what I know about her, she got along with people who self typed in those quadras (Implied is likely gamma, Expat is Te ESTj).
Yet, you still are typing her based on that.I do not place much at all in online inter-type relations, however.
Thank you for your emotional input, have a nice day.Okay, I'm done with this thread. good luck.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
ahahaha warlord you are MADE of win dude
lol that I am "obsessed with ashton." the only reason he occupies ANY space in my mind is that every post I see with your name attached to it is like a Freudian interpetation of a wet dream about him.
Then you most likely have not been reading my posts. You continue to attribute qualities to someone based on their association with another person.
Will you seriously grow the fuck up? You don't know me. You don't know my intents and you really shouldn't care.
Your actions are obviously not based on intellectual interest. If you were intellectually motivated you wouldn't be telling some other guy on the internet that the material he comes up with is connected to an infatuation with another person.
People who are mature don't play that game.
And ah... "emotional arguments?" funny seeing as I'm being overtly clear and logical whilst Gilly is being obviously emotional, so Warlord it just displays your bias.
grow
up.
The end is nigh
Oh, so you're not done with this thread? Yea, you're not motivated by emotion AT ALL; its clearly more likely that you have some PRACTICAL reason for defending yourself obstinately from jeering and valid criticism.
yeah good job, dude. You drew me back into the thread.
You're a winner.
First of all, I didn't WANT to defend myself in this thread. I SPECIFICALLY made it clear that I DO NOT have any substantial reasons to type her ESFj. I SAID it was subjective.
Do I not have this right? To once in awhile just fucking go with my guts? Huh?
YOU had to turn it into another "lets give Ashton attention" thread when he has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
god freakin damnit man.
The end is nigh
Sweet, I like winning.
Seriously, if you would exercise your own rights instead of subitting your intellectual free will to Ashton, Id be glad to let you roam free. But freedom has a cost: responsibility. If you cant be responsible for cultivating a realistic understanding of the theory you want to discuss, then I'm going to take away your freedom to discuss.
Danielle isn't ESE. That's a ridiculous type for her.
She clearly doesn't even give a shit. She's off partying somewhere like any SEE would be.
Ok. What you actually said, in the "Should Alpha have two subforums" thread, was this:
So, while you may not have said that you "don't care" about intertype relationships "at all", I think that any fair reading of what you said above implies that you regard them as of secondary and even trivial importance.
And it's definitely not about a "disagreement in typing methodology" as I will demonstrate.
You may "care" about what they wrote but you certainly haven't understood what they wrote. Your arguments are a succession of strawmen.
As your "loyalty" remark is nothing but that - a strawman. My, or Gilly's, concern has nothing - nothing at all - to do with "loyalty", but with clarity.
To use an example: I spent some time reading about Marxism. I think it's a lot of nonsense, and I certainly have no "loyalty" to Karl Marx or to what he wrote. But in spite of all that, in a discussion I will object to people referring to Pol Pot's ideas as "Marxism", because they were not Marxism.
So, we object to you using the terms invented by those authors to refer to your own personal, confused, Jung-influenced typology because it confuses things. Call it anything else, at the same time that you say that we are idiots and classical socionics is crap, and there will be no objections.
As to whether you actually understand what it's about, let me demonstrate something.
You type yourself as ENTp and me as ESTj, isn't that so? Ok then, that means that according to your typings, that makes me your benefactor.
The way it works is this: the ENTp's dual-seeking function - Si - is the ESTj's creative function. So, the ESTj's second function is precisely that what the ENTp craves from his dual. On the other hand, the ESTj's dual-seeking functionis the ENTp's PoLR.
So - and that is how benefit works - the ESTj has what the ENTp craves the most, and the ENTp does not have what the ESTj craves the most. That leads to a very asymmetrical relationship.
Would you mind describing where in me you see the Si which is what you most crave in others? You're at a disadvantage in relation to the socionix crowd because they see Si as something they dislike. But you see me as ESTj and Si is your dual-seeking.
So, again, where is the Si in me as something you need/admire in others, and you yourself value so much?
(On the other hand, I see you as my supervisee, IEI, and I have no problem seeing where you lack, devalue
).
If you think that your self-typing as ENTp and of me as ESTj are not based on that or do not need that, that's my whole point - then you're not talking of socionics.
Last edited by Expat; 05-15-2009 at 04:18 PM. Reason: typos again
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
But this obviously cannot apply to myself with Ashton, huh? The point is that you can't prove I have any other interest than clarity, and the reason I brought up Gilly's supposed loyalty to you is just that. Its meaningless and the same goes for his/your argument with Ashton.
No true scotsman fallacy?
From Wikisocion:
Fundamental categories of socionic theory:
Information metabolism is the process of perceiving, processing, and producing information performed by the human psyche.
An information element is a category of information that composes the information metabolism and possesses certain structural qualities: static/dynamic, body/field, and external/internal.
A function is a module of thought that takes in, processes, and produces information of a information aspect in a certain way.
A type describes which functions correspond to which element within a person's psyche.
Axioms of socionics:
People can be categorized with the four Jungian dichotomies: rational / irrational, extroverted / introverted, logic / ethics, intuitive / sensing.
The resulting types formed by the four Jungian dichotomies are discrete.
IM type does not change over a person's life (challenged by some socionists)
Interpersonal relations between people are determined, to some degree, by the socionic types of the parties.
So far I follow everyone of those axioms, so tell me why I fall outside of socionics, please.
As to whether you actually understand what it's about, let me demonstrate something.
You type yourself as ENTp and me as ESTj, isn't that so? Ok then, that means that according to your typings, that makes me your benefactor.
The way it works is this: the ENTp's dual-seeking function - Si - is the ESTj's creative function. So, the ESTj's second function is precisely that what the ENTp craves from his dual. On the other hand, the ESTj's dual-seeking function
So - and that is how benefit works - the ESTj has what the ENTp craves the most, and the ENTp does not have what the ESTj craves the most. That leads to a very asymmetrical relationship.
Would you mind describing where in me you see the Si which is what you most crave in others? You're at a disadvantage in relation to the socionix crowd because they see Si as something they dislike. But you see me as ESTj and Si is your dual-seeking.
So, again, where is the Si in me as something you need/admire in others, and you yourself value so much?
(On the other hand, I see you as my supervisee, IEI, and I have no problem seeing where you lack
If you think that your self-typing as ENTp and of me as ESTj are not based on that or do not need that, that's my whole point - then you're not talking of socionics.
This is one of my first conversations with you, Expat. I could not say how I personally benefit from your Si.
I have not seen any Ni out of you. Of course our descriptions of Ni differ so radically that it would be fruitless for me to begin describing how you're Ni polr. You will just go, "That is not Ni, therefore you're wrong." so why go through the trouble?
But how about this, why dont' you tell ME why I'm an IEI. Where's my Ni? How has my Ni personally affected you? Where's your Ni?
And oh no, I certainly believe in inter-type relationships, so dont try to pin that on me.
And I don't feel supervised at all btw. I feel that this specific discussion is fruitless because you have a totally different interpretation of the elements. You've likely heard the "socionix" crowd's IM descriptions, you still have not changed your mind, why should I waste my energy here?
*edit: Seems like everyone is your supervisee, Expat. Maybe we are just all IEI's and your superior ENTj-ness will lead us to a new day of glory and gifts.
Last edited by ArchonAlarion; 05-15-2009 at 07:08 PM.
Expat is a far end Te subtype of ENTj who accepts a variety of Ni observations into consciousness then arranges them in a Te fashion to form a coherent (Se) situation. What you 'aren't observing' is Ni producing. The label (Ni) creative doesn't describe these sorts of subtypes, because it seems to imply (Ni) producing; where what we really have is (Ni) primary/accepting. As you look further into subtypes, all you find is functions being further differentiated from these sorts of definitions.. "Creative", "Hidden Agenda", etc.; and even the dichotomies are elaborated on. With each new dichotomy, the old dichotomies have to be redefined. You could say he is ENTj-ESTj.. I wouldn't go that far, I'd just say ENTj-Ej. If you read his post up there, you will see that the things he chooses to discuss are all isolated bits of information which imply a course of conclusions.. that is the observed (Ni) information; and he takes all these bits and arranges them using Te so they fit together .. and form a (Se) situation.
Just reread the post and look at what is there
So jake, you agree that the definitions that you use are different from the ones used by myself, Expat, and most of the people on this board? If that is the case then I cannot possibly see what your objection is; if you use different premises, obviously their is going to be confusion when you post because we just arent talking about the same thing. Its like two people wearing different color sunglasses arguing over what color the clouds are. I just want you to take off your Ashtonian glasses and put on some Augusinian ones, at least when you post on this forum in the sections labeled "socionics."
Reply With Quote
