Interesting topic. It was a toss-up between honesty and relation, but then I realised that honesty has less to do with loyalty in my eyes than does relation, so I chose the latter.
Interesting topic. It was a toss-up between honesty and relation, but then I realised that honesty has less to do with loyalty in my eyes than does relation, so I chose the latter.
I think Circumstantial is a good fit for me. I definitely incorporate my relation to the people involved into the equation but a relation doesn't have the ultimate say. To me, pure honesty or secrecy would mean we are virtually not friends because I can't be friends with someone I can't trust at all not to share what I say; on the other hand, someone who can never be honest with me isn't really appealing in a friendship either.
“No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov
http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0
Relation is the one that is the most distasteful to me. For Tereg's reasons. Circumstance/secrecy/honesty depending on the context .. which probably means circumstance then.If someone specifically asked me to keep a secret .. then I'd usually honour that above everything. Unless I felt that it was harmful for me to keep the secret.. Then, ideally I'd tell the person that I was going to tell someone before I do, to give them a chance to tell people themselves.
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
If someone told me something in confidence, I'm not likely to let it out. But there are some things that I get torn about, and some things that I may do depending on what's going on in the situation.
First, I suck at lying, and I suck at being able to directly say "No, I won't tell you", but I'm fairly decent at hem-hawing. So if asked a direct question about something told me in confidence, then I'm stuck between not being able to so "I can't tell you" and not being able to redirect them elsewhere. So I'll tend to answer the question as honestly as I can…without actually answering it to the fullest. (I don't follow "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" policy. I'm not opposed to altering the words some nor leaving things out. Some might call it 'little white lies', but it's not a case of "yes I like your outfit" when the reality is that I don't…it's more like "the colors suit your eyes" when I think that the colors do suit the eyes…but that the cut is horrible but the person really likes it and doesn't want to hear anything bad about the outfit.)
If someone tells me something in confidence, and that can effect their own livelihood and/or life, or the livelihood and/or life of someone else, then I might make an attempt to point someone else who can do something into looking in that direction. Such as if I were to find out in secrecy that a fellow employee is about to be fired if they don't stop doing a certain action. I might attempt to broach the subject of that action to the person and see if I can get them to recognize that it might cause them trouble down the road. Or if a friend of my daughter's tells my daughter about how depressed she is and how she wants to kill herself, etc. And my daughter, freaked out, comes to me but swears me to secrecy. Then I might still go to the parent or a school counselor and mention that they might want to check into the emotional well being of the child. If they ask for more details, I'll pretty much just say that I've recently heard some things that I can't really verify, but that they concerned me enough to make this call. And if they further push for more info, the best I can say is that that's about all I can tell them, that if it somehow leaked that I'd told them even this much then I won't have access to further info as it comes in.
I think that the kind or depth of the relationship has quite a bit to do with just what kind of "secret" is being told. If someone tells me they have a crush on person X. And I happen to be talking to person X, then, depending on the conversation of the moment, I might say that I have a friend or know a person who has a crush on them. I won't say who, though, only that it was told to me in confidence. (and then smile as they try to play 20 questions)
The vast majority of the time, however, the 'secrets' told me are pretty much important only to the one telling me. Noone else has any reason to suspect that I might know anything at all about it. Noone has any reason to ask me directly about it. And there's no reason for me to ever feel the need to hint to anyone else about it. And I know that if I were to ever run off and blab even part of it to someone else, then I'd lose this person's trust, and thus wouldn't be allowed in the circle of "knowing". And, well, I've said it many times before, I'm nosey. I like being 'in the know'. I'll protect that as best as I can.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
If this is Te HA, then it would explain my ESFp friend's nosiness to an extent. I tend to feel hesitant at his "gotta know" attitude at first but I always end up telling him everything, lol. Haven't had any trust issues with him so far and his loyalty is what holds the bond between us. (besides other things of course.)Originally Posted by anndelise
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Honestly, i can't say for sure whether it's part of the Te HA or not.
What I DO know is that it's such a big part of my life and my relationships with others.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
I dunno. I don't generally talk to my husband about stuff that people tell me unless he's also friends with them and I know it would be okay with the person who told me. Even though it's probably fine (since he's my husband), I still feel like the information was shared between me and the friend ONLY. And I don't expect that my husband will tell me things that his close friends have shared with him in confidence. I think being able to keep someone's confidence is important. But I would break that confidence if I thought someone's life were in danger or something. It's hard to know exactly where that breaking point would be since I've never been in that position.
IEI-Fe 4w3
I like circumstantial because it means I can do whatever I want. I use my words to have impact. I can soften the truth, I can sharpen it like a knife, or I can not reveal anything at all. I try not to lie though. I either tell the truth, or play dumb, or find some other way to not say anything.
The saddest ESFj
...
This is a quality I've always picked up on in people. I don't know why, but it's something I tend to look for even if I don't necessarily realize I'm looking for it.
In a relationship between two people loyal to each other, which do you value more:
- Loyalty to being honest
- Loyalty to keeping a secret
- Loyalty to a person above all
- Loyalty to whatever is “Right”
Because of the buzzword-esque nature of words like honesty, secrecy, etc. and all of the moral associations they trigger, people find it difficult to acknowledge that these things can sometimes be mutually exclusive.
Example: You confide in a friend something that you expect them to never share with anyone. However, this friend has a significant other that expects complete honesty between them; i.e., withholding information is considered lying. So if your secret—meant only for your friend to know—involves their s/o, do they tell them? Which loyalty is most important, the unconditional honesty between the couple, or the sworn secrecy between friends?
I've noticed that people have general tendencies to value one loyalty over another:
- HONESTY Someone may have an “I'm not going to lie to you, this is what they said to me…” attitude—where you can trust that they're telling you the truth, and although you appreciate being able to know the truth from them, you can't help but wonder what truths of yours they're willing to tell others.
PRO: They don't withhold information from you.
CON: They don't always keep your secrets.- SECRECY Someone else may be totally loyal and would never, ever expose something private between the two of you, but if they know something about you that someone else confided in them, you're not ever going to find out about it. So in this example, you can't help but wonder what they're withholding from you.
PRO: They'll always keep your secrets.
CON: They may withhold information from you.- RELATION Someone can be both honest to you and conscious of your secrets, but only based on your relational status/ranking in their relational hierarchy. Using the example of the s/o and the friend, this type of person gives one but not both of those people the honesty andsecrecy, depending on who is most valued; e.g., “blood is thicker than water”—where loyalty is based on the type of relationship between those involved, rather than any moral standard of honesty or trust.
PRO: If you're in, you're in—and you can trust them completely.
CON: If you're not, you're not—and you really can't trust them at all.- CIRCUMSTANCE Someone can take a detached, context-based role or involvement in it. This is someone who makes a decision based on what is actually happening around them, the circumstances involved. This person decides who “needs” to know something and who doesn't; e.g., withholding information if it will affect things negatively or being “too honest” to provoke a reaction out of those involved—where they see themself as able to influence dynamics and feel responsible to regulate the spread of information between parties to achieve a “best fit” outcome.
PRO: They'll do what they feel is right regardless of any hierarchy/status of relations or moral protocol.
CON: You may not trust their conception of Right and Wrong, and so it feels like they're making decisions that they're not justified to make.
I realize this isn't black and white, but people do have tendencies. I'm asking which—it may be more than one—forms of loyalty you tend to value more.
-----------------------
Loyalty to Whatever is "Right"
Loyalty to Honesty, but not about minor issues --- that doesn't mean repeatedly telling someone they have a fat ass only to be truthful.
Loyalty to Person -- within limits. provided that they don't kill anyone or treat me in an opposing way.
Last edited by Amber; 04-25-2015 at 12:12 AM.
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