EII-ILE supervision relations (INFj and ENTp)

[Creepy-male]

Ok, since this is one of the underpinnings of my huge tower of issues with an ILE typing, let's discuss the nature of EII's supervision of ILE.

Fi PoLR in ILEs: not wanting to let ethics (like, the normal ones) get in the way of Ne impulses; or, disregarding "the nice thing to say" in light of just putting your ideas out there.

Supervision forces the ILE to ____? Or rather, the ILE feels boxed in because they have to watch themselves? I'd like to know what should technically be going on in this intertype. Also consider that one of my longest friends is EII, so I *should* hopefully have some idea as to what happens in my head when dealing with them.

[Rocket]

First up if you're an EII (or any other type in fact) it's risky business messing with an ILE .... if you don't believe me just try it and Se what happens !!!

Now from my own experience EII strike most effectively at the PoLR of an ILE when the EII initially presents themselves in a cheerful manner and as "a friend", and then either

[A] "Coldly" withdraws into themselves and expresses distaste as the ILE takes the bait and reciprocates with Fe
or
[B] "Coldly" dismembers the supposed friendship with the ILE in favor of any third party that may make themselves present.

the "pain" the ILE experiences stems from the simplistic and deep seated need ILEs tend to have "to be liked" or "to be thought highly of" [or at the very least not to be the subject of such value judgments] while at the same time ILEs lack the ability to distinguish between what is simply "politeness" in others and what may count as signals indicating the commencement of a genuine friendship.

[1981slater]

Assuming I am an ILE, my EII aunt supervises me by giving me advice I haven't asked for. For instance, she is always saying me things like "in life, there are no real friendships","that woman only wants money","don't trust people", etc.

At the same time, I supervise my LSI father by telling him things about socionics, etc. He refuses to listen to me but he ends up reading the stuff I talk about.

The supervisee acknowledges the supervisor is right, but doesn't want to "surrender".

[Wynch]

Well, I'm not an ILE but I imagine that having an Fi PoLR makes one averse to or uncomfortable with systems that are based on personal sentiments. I don't prefer these sorts of systems either but I feel that I share other similarities with EIIs such as intoversion, a rational temperament and an Se PoLR. I guess that with an ILE such systems feel more like kicks in the gut?

Actually, I have no idea. Sorry.

This actually seems to summarize my feelings rather nicely. I get uncomfortable when discussions involve matters of personal preference or sentiments because I'm not sure how to express my own without making it a logical assessment. I don't get how you can simply assess a relationship as good or bad without a logical justification. It comes out the most when I'm asked to assess personal relationships. Rather than saying why I like someone, I tend to say why I SHOULD like something. Additionally, if I feel adversion to someone or something without a good reason, it makes me upset and confused and I'll sit there assessing the situation until I no longer feel that way.

With EIIs I admire their calmness and their ability to remain openminded when addressing those personal issues. However, it's like dealing with someone who can do something amazing that you can't. When you have to deal with it head on, it's extremely frustrating because the person can't frame things in the way you want them to, but at the same time you secretly wish you could do things more like them.

Here's my justification for all of this, lol:

If you're sitting on a Base function (in this case Ne), that is the function through which you collect information. You are seeking out Base triggers and thereby filtering information this way. The Creative function, second half of your ego, is the vehicle by which you channel all of this information (in this case Ti). If you are in a relationship of supervision, your supervisor is communicating in your language (Your Base Ne, their Creative Ne), but they are addressing issues that you have difficulty filtering (Your PoLR Fi, their Base Fi).

For myself, this results in the feeling that you hear what the other person is saying, but they're talking about things that you don't fully understand.

[CILi]

EII here, with an ILE dad and (for most of my life) best friend.

TBH, I'm not sure I see a whole lot of hardcore supervision going on with either. Something in me gets pretty complacent and compromising (may be a Delta-ish "keep the peace" thing), and instead I look for that oh-so-comfortable -common ground. Long as we're playing there, things are pretty darn smooth, productive, and (occasionally) crazy-fun.

The only downside (for me, anyway) is when an ILE shows even the slightest bit of . I just lose it. I kick 'em in the teeth. That rare-seen EII fury goes absolutely ape. Most people laugh when I go off (it's just so out of place for me); but in these "supervisory" situations, ILE's bite back. I assume they want coddling or applause or something, but instead give 'em the back-hand.

"You can stop now. That's my role. Thanks for playing. Better luck next time."

I'd say I'm usually a really nice guy. Overly nice. But if anything's gonna make me an ass, it's probably an unusually emo ILE. I can't conceive of 'em like that, don't want to conceive of 'em like that, and do everything in my power to make sure I never again have to see 'em like that. If you can't depend on ILE's for bone-dry, ice-cold wit, the world just ain't right.

[Creepy-male]

Alright, ClLi, what is Fi in ILEs to you? And what's the nature of this EII fury?

[CILi]

Alright, what is Fi in ILEs to you?

To be fair, it's really rare. Almost never pops up.

To me, it's this "awkwardly somber, semi-withdrawn, gazing-into-the distance trance-y state" where they "ramble about 'how they truly, deeply feel' or 'how they intimately (almost spiritually) emo-connected with someone.'"

If not that scenario, it's "a calm, relaxed, faux-passive judgment of how ethically wrong another person (or, more often, 'humanity') really is."

These are things I see in myself pretty often, come to think of it. Must drive ILEs insane.

And what's the nature of this EII fury?

It's cruel. It's wrong. It's shameful.

Sometimes I get all SLE (or what I imagine that'd be) and mock their emotion, succinctly and sarcastically. Other times, I'm just stern and bitterly silent, staring off at my own "in-the-distance" as if I can't, won't, and never did hear a word they're saying.

Kinda hurts to type that, but it's truth.

ILEs is good people, really.

[Creepy-male]

Hmm, I've never been in that situation.

However:

[A] "Coldly" withdraws into themselves and expresses distaste as the ILE takes the bait and reciprocates with Fe

This happened to me some years ago with an EII. We'd be all chummy and awesome, but then, out of nowhere, he'd go all cold and snarky and abusive. Comparing the LSE's response to that sort of thing: "Isn't he always like that?"

But again, 0% identification with anything Vero posted :|

*sigh*

[Nyam]

this is a reflective take from an ILE perspective. Thanks so much for this

[Slacker]

Holy crap I wrote a whole huge thread and it's all gone

Hmm well ok so there is a young ILE in my life, and an older EII. The EII not an emotionally healthy person, and is an adult and the other is a child, so I am guessing this is more extreme than most EII/ILE situations, but I'm wondering if this is familiar in a general sense anyway, other than how extreme it is.

The EII very pushy and manipulative and really just forces and forces issues until the ILE explodes, and then the EII calls the ILE rude and/or ungrateful.

Examples:

EII: How would you like to go a movie with me?
ILE: OK!
EII: What movie do you want to see?
ILE: Movie X
EII: I've been wanting to see Movie Y. Would you like to see MovieY?
ILE: I already saw that movie and I didn't like it.
EII: Well, we could have fun anyway.
ILE: I don't want to see movie Y. But you can go to that movie without me. We don't have to go to a movie.
EII: No, that's OK, we can see Movie X if you want.
(Then on the day of the movie, EII comes to pick up ILE.)
EII: Are you ready to see Movie Y? I'm so excited!
ILE: Huh? I told you I don't want to see that movie. We were going to see Movie X.
EII: I thought we were headed to Movie Y. I haven't even looked up the times for Movie X. But I'm sure you'll have fun at Movie Y.
ILE: I already saw that movie and didn't like it. I don't want to see it again.
Me (after looking up movie times): I see Movie X starts only 10 minutes after Movie Y. You can still see that.
EII: I was really looking forward to seeing Movie Y.
ILE: I am not going to go to the movies with you if you see that movie. I will only go if you see Movie X.
EII: You don't have to be rude. You should be grateful that I'm taking you out to a movie at all.
Me: You and she agreed to see Movie X. What is rude is trying to trick a little kid into going to a movie other than what you agreed to when she was very clear about this the other day. If you don't want to see Movie X, don't take her, and I'll take her.
EII: (sulking) Fine. Let's go see Movie X.
Then I heard from ILE that EII tried AGAIN when they got to the theater. She tried buying tickets to Movie Y, and ILE corrected her, and EII said no that they're going to movie Y, and ILE told her to call me to pick her up, because she is NOT going to that movie, and EII gave in and bought tickets for Movie X. Then she talked to ILE through the whole movie complaining about how bad it was and how much better Movie Y would have been.

EII is no longer allowed to take ILE out without me. But there are dozens of similar situations where EII has been ridiculously pushy and rude, but always under this facade of kindness and generosity, and when ILE says she won't be controlled, EII calls her rude and ungrateful. ILE has a very hard time handling it when EII is pretending to be nice. It's like EII sets it up so either she gets what she wants, or ILE looks rude, and then she chastises ILE for being rude.

Is this just this EII, or does this happen (maybe to a lesser extent) with other EIIs?

[FoxOnStilts]

I think this sounds more like someone trying to manipulate a kid than anything else. But I don't know anyone I've typed EII, and I am not sure how that supervision relationship works. I have trouble with supervision in general, actually

[glam]

EII is no longer allowed to take ILE out without me. But there are dozens of similar situations where EII has been ridiculously pushy and rude, but always under this facade of kindness and generosity, and when ILE says she won't be controlled, EII calls her rude and ungrateful. ILE has a very hard time handling it when EII is pretending to be nice. It's like EII sets it up so either she gets what she wants, or ILE looks rude, and then she chastises ILE for being rude.

personally i find this to be consistent with EII-ILE supervision. from what i've seen in a couple of cases, the ILE reacts negatively to what they see as EII's attempts to control them and their behavior. the EII then generally tries to blame any conflict on supposed character flaws of the ILE, making themselves out to be a kind of "martyr" - the "good" one in the situation who is sacrificing themselves, trying to work with the "bad" ILE.

[Esaman]

No, not all EII are incredibly pushy and rude...
I think all EII would guilt trip a child in their care if he actually did something questionable, and that wouldn't do ILE much good.

[fen]

I can't imagine that being applicable across the board. :|
I don't think this is just about the "supervision" dynamic. I dunno. Rar.
I dunno, I can admit I've done stuff kinda like that before, but I think most people can. But...the extent of that pushiness was kinda...I dunno. Too much, for sure. Could be Se-polr related? I've read Se-polr as being uncertain to how much pressure to exert in a situation, which can lead to too much or too little expression of wants or something. But..I DUNNO. Rar.

[Beautiful sky]

I can't imagine that being applicable across the board. :|
I don't think this is just about the "supervision" dynamic. I dunno. Rar.
I dunno, I can admit I've done stuff kinda like that before, but I think most people can. But...the extent of that pushiness was kinda...I dunno. Too much, for sure. Could be Se-polr related? I've read Se-polr as being uncertain to how much pressure to exert in a situation, which can lead to too much or too little expression of wants or something. But..I DUNNO. Rar.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's premeditated; it happens in response to too much exertion on that function. Like trying to push Se in and having there be a wall that's blocking it; the kid isn't doing Se by saying "I would like to she this movie." That's not Se. I'm having an Se PoLR reaction right now, a reaction which is over reaction at someone bypassing my conception of INFj or my conception of what INFj are like by suggesting something untrue, that somehow Se means tricking kids to see what you want to see instead of what you want them...

You see the intensity of how I react to this post? This is Se PoLR overreaction. It's rushing to stop a fire before there's a blaze. Trying to mobilize for action in a situation that is less than expected or ideal and doing it poorly because I can't justly remove my attention from the topic, because it's against my Fi, morality.

Since I can't adequately influence the right amount by stopping my overreaction, and using it with twists and turns, as an Se ego type would with various forms of argumentation, persuasion, and semantics, I am left with very little "protective" defenses, causing me to do nothing except to scream and shout my message to try to get it across, which is actually trying to reason with someone logically.

[Pa3s]

I don't think this is just about the "supervision" dynamic. I dunno. Rar.
I dunno, I can admit I've done stuff kinda like that before, but I think most people can. But...the extent of that pushiness was kinda...I dunno. Too much, for sure. Could be Se-polr related? I've read Se-polr as being uncertain to how much pressure to exert in a situation, which can lead to too much or too little expression of wants or something. But..I DUNNO. Rar.

Do you actually talk like that sometimes?

[fen]

Do you actually talk like that sometimes?

"I don't know" is probably the phrase I say most. As far as "rar"....it's something I type out online, but in actuality it's more of just a feeling of not being able to explain something well, and I get uncertain and frustrated. I don't say "rar" in real life, but I do say "rah" in those situations. Why?

[Pa3s]

Why?

I dunno, just curious.

[fen]

Maybe if he bought you a phone, he wanted you to like that phone over another one you had in mind. I dunno...just a thought I had; maybe he was afraid you wouldn't appreciate it because you were more partial to another phone, and tried to explain to you why it is good, and then when you seemed disinterested still, made an appealing offer to somehow make it more likable...? I DONT KNOW, haha. Just rambling; this probably doesn't apply right cause I don't know the context well.

/end deviation from thread.

[cherrysidecar]

My mother and grandmother both do this to me, though less extreme, and they are neither EII nor my supervisors. They're some kind of extraverted ego with Fi, I think. Also an ESI friend who I made the mistake of living with for a while would do this too. So the common denominator seems to be Fi? Immature Fi, to be specific.

[Beautiful sky]

My mother and grandmother both do this to me, though less extreme, and they are neither EII nor my supervisors. They're some kind of extraverted ego with Fi, I think. Also an ESI friend who I made the mistake of living with for a while would do this too. So the common denominator seems to be Fi? Immature Fi, to be specific.

Thank you.

[Beautiful sky]

Slacker, this is really weird. First of all, an EII tries very hard to keep her obligations and accommodate kids, especially; second it's not supervision to tell someone you should be grateful of them just because they do things with you that they want to do. It's called being selfish, and completely type unrelated.

Are you sure that this isn't an SEE talking; I would never try to impose my will on a little kid. This sounds way too much Se..."hey, let's do this because I am going to say let's do this so you can buy into doing this."

The extent of EII control over people is "you're this." and response with "no." and then "oh well, that didn't work." But to actually get a kid, an innocent kid to do something they don't want to do and try to pass it off as doing something for them, is just outrageously inconsiderate.

We're humanists and we care about kids too; this means "hey, if I can afford it, I'll want to please the people I love."

[Slacker]

Slacker, this is really weird. First of all, an EII tries very hard to keep her obligations and accommodate kids, especially; second it's not supervision to tell someone you should be grateful of them just because they do things with you that they want to do. It's called being selfish, and completely type unrelated.

Are you sure that this isn't an SEE talking; I would never try to impose my will on a little kid. This sounds way too much Se..."hey, let's do this because I am going to say let's do this so you can buy into doing this."

The extent of EII control over people is "you're this." and response with "no." and then "oh well, that didn't work." But to actually get a kid, an innocent kid to do something they don't want to do and try to pass it off as doing something for them, is just outrageously inconsiderate.

We're humanists and we care about kids too; this means "hey, if I can afford it, I'll want to please the people I love."

Oh no, this person is not an Se ego type. Not all EIIs are going to be nice to kids. There is variety among all types. She has outside issues that affect they way she is as well. This would absolutely be an extreme situation and not just supervision. I'm just wondering if supervision plays into it at all.

Also, Se ego types are much better at knowing how to get what they want. She has this passive-aggressive weird way of pushing pushing pushing TRYING to get what she wants and trying so poorly that she upsets people. She is completely unable to be upfront and say what she wants. It's always under this veneer of sweetness, but it's just a veneer. Every time someone is unpleasant, they are not showing ego block Se, but this is another thing that explains to me how you could possibly type such a huge percentage of the population SEE.

[Nowisthetime]

I'm just wondering if supervision plays into it at all.

I don't think it was a good example of supervision, but I think supervision could play into it, yes. The supervisor feels confident using his base function and notices that the supervisee pays attention to whatever he does. That can lead to risk taking and wanting to manipulate. Feeling of superiority.

[Beautiful sky]

Oh no, this person is not an Se ego type. Not all EIIs are going to be nice to kids. There is variety among all types. She has outside issues that affect they way she is as well. This would absolutely be an extreme situation and not just supervision. I'm just wondering if supervision plays into it at all.

Also, Se ego types are much better at knowing how to get what they want. She has this passive-aggressive weird way of pushing pushing pushing TRYING to get what she wants and trying so poorly that she upsets people. She is completely unable to be upfront and say what she wants. It's always under this veneer of sweetness, but it's just a veneer. Every time someone is unpleasant, they are not showing ego block Se, but this is another thing that explains to me how you could possibly type such a huge percentage of the population SEE.

Well, I'm around plenty of Se and Fe egos and I've seen Se ego types push push people into trying to get them to do what they want and not be successful, not having success has to do with how firm you are in terms of standing up against that type's Se, not about having Se PoLR. You'll often see that when the Se ego is not getting their way, they will laugh at the situation, and try to make it seem as though it were a joke that they didn't get their way, after all.

Anyway Se PoLR responds from outside pressure; this kid isn't pressuring her to have her way. She is simply requesting to see one movie; this other person, who you claim to be EII, is finding ways to push her will on to her and the kid is remaining firm.

I don't see myself doing this.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Polr hits seem more subtle than this, this sounds like intentionally fucking with a kid just because a kid is more naive and helpless. The type thing could be exacerbating the problem though.

I think socionics has to do with the way we communicate, what we hear from others when they communicate with us, and how well we can understand them on an intellectual level. So I think being obvious assholeish has nothing to do with type, just that person being a cunt.

I don't sense 100% evil from the eii, even though yes, that is annoying. I sense more intense condescension with a 'neener neener neener, I'm doing this to you because you're young' sing songy nanny voice.

[Esaman]

I don't sense 100% evil from the eii, even though yes, that is annoying. I sense more intense condescension with a 'neener neener neener, I'm doing this to you because you're young' sing songy nanny voice.

I can see that too, but the problem is that Fi PoLR child will most definately experience it as 100% evil abuse.

[ashlesha]

I can see that too, but the problem is that Fi PoLR child will most definately experience it as 100% evil abuse.

100% evil abuse?

do you ever watch the news or anything?

[Esaman]

Common, it is one short sentence. How did you manage to miss me talking about subjective experience of the child. Also, "100% evil abuse" does mean "worst possible abuse", just that the abuse is experienced as evil in nature.

[Ver]

I hate this situation, I just hate this kind of behaviour. She's inconsistent and doesn't keep her word. She's trying to exert her will on someone who trusted her and depended on her. She's trying to limit her freedom. I hate it hate it hate it. I'm so happy I'm not a kid anymore.

[Ver]

But there are dozens of similar situations where EII has been ridiculously pushy and rude, but always under this facade of kindness and generosity, and when ILE says she won't be controlled, EII calls her rude and ungrateful. ILE has a very hard time handling it when EII is pretending to be nice. It's like EII sets it up so either she gets what she wants, or ILE looks rude, and then she chastises ILE for being rude.

Hm, I feel in a very similar way around SeFi. OMG I hate it so much when somebody is pretending to me nice, I firstly believe them, and then I see that all they want to do is just to make me do sth so that they are happy.And I feel helpless. I don't know I hate it when someone limits me or somebody else in this way, not taking care of what other person wants and this dishonesty... This is my POLR whatever it is.
They could've decided to see one movie and then another one. You should never ever take advantage of somebody being weaker especially when it's a child you're supposed to take care of.

[Pookie]

Smart Kid

[FoxOnStilts]

I don't like being told how I feel, and that's something Fi-egos love to do.

[Radio]

I don't like being told how I feel, and that's something Fi-egos love to do.

Reminds me of this Family Guy episode.

(...)
Brian: Yeah, so there's this seminar in New Haven on creating your own web based internet series. Sounds like it could be right up my alley!
Lois: Is this one of those classes where you make the checks directly to the teacher's name?
Brian: *dead pan* Feel good about that? Feel good about what you just said?

Here: http://www.4shared.com/video/MsFsbyj0/818.html it's right at the beginning.

[717495]

I don't like being told how I feel, and that's something Fi-egos love to do.

What?

Anyway, no this EII in your example sounds like an inconsiderate liar or is somehow not grasping the picture. I personally see the ILE-EII relation a bit differently and from my subtypes' point of view have had mostly decent positive relations and lots of interesting speculative chatter. The ILE of course sees their supervisor as odd and detrimental to their world view (aka. not the most "interesting" or "well-suited" person ever), as we can be quite intensive and obstinate about our own feelings and individuality, and they can see that as a coarse and blind attitude towards the realistic social world and don't want to be around that type of person. Sometimes with a more Fe subtype ILE they can come across as invasive to our personal life choices and don't give individuality enough credit.

This negative depiction is also a bit biased toward my 4 nature. As far as major problems the EII has, is usually with our supervisor not supervisee ofc. I often see my ILE friends as being pretty inspirational and a breath of fresh air. The problem that arises with Ti is trying to get information out of them; they can be quite selective about their own intensive focus, which might be fine for an Fe ego who is interested in gaining a knowledge of quality-based ideas, but serves no specific means among specific questioning and categorization of terminology. So the ILE is left saying about Te "what is the real point? (of a stand-alone fact or comparative clarification, if it serves no ideational purposes)."

[Slacker]

You think you're around tons of Se ego types because you mistype people like crazy and your most common mistyping seems to be SEE.

And for the millionth time, not all EIIs will be exactly like you, even if you are EII. People are complicated. Two EIIs will have some things in common, and some things that are different.

[Absurd]

Looks like there's a lot of SEEs supervising Maritsa. Maritsa, you sure you're not your own supervisor? You self-type EII as well.

[Eliza Thomason]

I don't think its because the EII is an EII here, I think its because this EII is a Narcissist, and the interaction you give is exactly what a Narcissist does. I know because my ESE ex was a Narcissist, and this is exactly what he does. I have seen him do the very same thing where he will make a deal with someone and then show up pretending the deal went his way, and he is so confident and sure in his act that it leaves others questioning their sanity/memory. (After many years with my ex I was unsure of my sanity and memory).

But this poor child needs protection because having a Narcissist who is an adult AND is your Socionics Supervisor is about the worst possible case scenario ever. Read what it says on this site about Supervision. Psychologically dangerous! Can make the child physically and mentally sick! The child needs protection.

That the OP sees what is going on and sticks up for the child, pointing out reality, is priceless in this child's life. OP is an extremely important presence in the child's life, a witness to reality (and sanity).

[FoxOnStilts]

I don't think its because the EII is an EII here, I think its because this EII is a Narcissist, and the interaction you give is exactly what a Narcissist does.

It's a bit of a stretch to type someone based on one exchange, considering its one topic/conversation and you're not a professional (I'm assuming, as no professional psychologist would diagnose based off of this. You sound more like someone who minored or took a few psychology classes and think you know whats wrong with everyone around you.)

It sounds like someone is underestimating the mental capabilities of a child and trying to take advantage of that. Just because she does that with kids doesn't mean that she does it with adults. You often hear of people whose kids say something like, "Ew I hate broccoli" and the parents responding with "No, you love it" and the kids being all, "oh that's right, I do."

But depending on the age of the kid that won't work. Some people seem to forget that kids aren't idiots. That kinds stuff doesn't work on my boyfriends 6 year old at least. >> She calls you out on that shit.

[Beautiful sky]

Supervision isn't sitting on someone's throat and waiting for them to make a mistake so you can call them out on it, or is it? If you look at the my "dear SEE" thread, you may see how my "supervisor" Dolphin, calls my attention to addressing my response/post a certain way. This is how supervision is like. It's not purposefully trying to be mean to another individual but in a way asking them to be like you or speak your language.