as we have all accepted, it is evident that jung is ILI.
as we have all accepted, it is evident that jung is ILI.
No, he was overgeneralizing what someone on the board might have said, and using it as a strawman of some common misconception.Originally Posted by Logos
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
You are welcome to play petty semantics, but it was still all done rather tongue-in-cheek and does little to change the overall meaning or intent as well as glam mostly completely missing his point.
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
or possibly socionics is not something that interests many gamma's and hence the uneven distribution?
Or maybe ashton and gang are all beta's as you are implying Glam.
Hey, but he's your dual. You should know right?
oh and Hitta's dual too.
and mine.
The end is nigh
okay.
Mirror?
ya know what, nvm. Im just bored and stirring up shit.
But the pretentiousness in this forum is reaching a critical high as of late, so I'm not all to blame.
The end is nigh
sorry im infantile
The end is nigh
so it seems that all of us have come to the mind that jung was ILI.
all right then; it's settled, as there's no disagreement over jung as ILI.
Did she have morphological proof? If so, there's absolutely nothing you can do. Morphological proof is just undeniable.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
What? weren't you dead already?
I must have killed the real gamma then.
Um, how the hell did I contradict your point? The “there ISN'T anything special about gamma” bit is something I just said:
So how exactly would you like me to “get over” myself? There's absolutely nothing “elite” about being Gamma. Why do you believe that Ashton's type distribution (or lack thereof) implies elitism? There's a difference between few and select—a position of minority vs. exclusivity. Just because there aren't quite as many Gammas active on a Socionics forum as, say, Alphas or Betas, does not imply that they are any more “special” than others.
And honestly, why does anyone even care? It's ridiculous; socially-driven typological economics for fuck's sake. The fact that all of you are getting your panties in a twist over it is pathetic—especially aixelsyd, you seriously need to calm down already. Yes, I realize you're joking. But is it necessary to go on and on (and on…) over it? Knock off the dramatics. Passive-aggression loses its charm when it's so blatant and slapstick. Yay, let's continue to har-har and knee-slap for another ten pages while we're at it too, eh?
And the irony of the complaining is depressing. I'm off.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
I'm referring to the “Gammas” who are going into hysterics over something this petty. Yeah, I'm sure if you type L-O-L overcompensatingly enough everyone will get the message that you find this ridiculous. Great. Anyway, it's not a big deal, glam. I don't care one way or another if you want to drag it like a dead hooker from page 3 inside jokes to the Quotes of Fame thread to hover around and L-O-L there as well. I mean, go for it. I'm just here to say that you can stop winking already, because you've all made it quite (painfully) clear that you “get” it.
/end “For the love of god.”
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
it does get annoying when someone confronts you about your 'fake gammaness'.
I bet it happens a lot for you.
.
You honestly have no idea what you're talking about. You think I “lap up his meaningless drivel.” Lovely. But why is that, exactly? Were you around every instance I've ever spoken to Ashton? Do you know anything about what I accept or don't accept? Would you like to tell me why I'm so keen on following my fucking Emperor, Diana? I posted on 16types for roughly a year before I had even heard of Ashton. And honestly, his “idiocy” is more insightful and true to reality than I've seen anyone else produce. Go ahead and tell me that I have no strength of mind, but I doubt that you actually believe that anyway.
And it's funny, because I feel like I'm getting hit with a montage of all the instances where I've read yours posts. You know, the ones where you're responding to someone accusing you of “kissing Expat's ass” or whatever. You said something along the lines of a “No, I was the only one to argue with him about some things.” (Paraphrased, because I don't want to search for it right now.) Anyway, I'm glad to know that you're totally okay with doing the same thing that other people did to you, but to me. It really pisses me off when someone says comments like that. I know you don't kiss anyone's ass, and I'd especially never claim to know if I didn't. I hate when people tell me what is happening when they really have no idea. Don't call me Ashton's follower if you don't really know what it's like with us. I'm not obligated to write anyone a fucking description, but I'll tell you this: If you think that I'm some sort of sycophant, then you're disgustingly mistaken. If Ashton's wrong about something, then I'm probably the first to say so. I'm the only one who'll directly tell him he's being an asshole, or to confront him when I disagree with something. I don't accept anything that I can't see as being true. Don't tell me otherwise.
A huh. There isn't even any discussion going on there. It's relatively dead now. What nodding heads do you see, Diana? There's just people posting out of habit or boredom—and it's generally not even Socionics-related. For Christ's sake, everyone seems to want a figurehead for the groupthink they're so desperately trying to disassociate from. Socionix isn't it. Ashton isn't an emperor. He doesn't have followers. And btw, who the hell are you referring to when you say “all you”? I'm not asking you to provide citations for your bullshit, but be direct or don't speak at all.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
Diana, stop it! You have an Se PoLR and will have to huddle in a corner if you continue this. I worry about you fragile delta NF you.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
.
all right; let it be told that all parties agree that jung was ILI.
I will say this.
As an ex-fake gamma myself, Ashton and others with similar ideas or frameworks or whatever make the most sense to me. I try to not take Ashton's word as law by always starting with someone's self-typing and then watching their behavior to see if they match up. So far I've come to similar conclusions as him, and this is not due to blind following and more with him just really having a good grip on socionics. He just does.
I mean, with the exception of Steve, many of those who are commonly labeled as "ashtonian" (whether they consider themselves so or not) were kind a fucking dicks to me lol. Strrrng and Allie hounded me across the forums. If my motives were purely social why would I have chosen "model x" stuff over the stuff used by people not on my case? The truth is that they have good arguments and their interpretation seems both more professional and fair. Brilliand has somewhat influenced me also.
tbh i dont give a shit about gamma. I will type people as I see them.
The end is nigh
cool; it seems that everyone thinks jung is ILI.
.
so it's been settled that jung was ILI and no other type.
Freud, that coked-up bastard!
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
.
Wow. Spot on. Nice not to be the only one who sees this.
+1
I would add that I don't think she's incapable of coming up with conclusions, but I don't think she cares to or is even interested in doing so. She's not really an intellectual. For her I don't think it's about finding the truth or correct way, but instead riding whatever wave of what is convenient socially.
It was strange. She went from writing posts like this, with this tone, a year or so ago:
..to rather suddenly "sobering up" and suddenly claiming to be well versed in socionics. How it can happen so quickly is beyond me. And you're right, Allie never seems to actually give an explanation for where she stands, because I don't think she actually "stands" anywhere, in terms of actual truth.
Well.. sometimes when you're new you can get everything backwards and switched like that. You may see shadow elements of yourself in the type you're identifying with ...
From what Allie actually said, it seems like she's talking more about ENTjs without realizing it. Like with there being "One right answer" .. That is Te and Ni. It's her shadow side which she's seeing, and wrongly labeling as "ENTp".
Also: socionics exists independently of Ashton and anyone else who observes it.. There is no reason we should be thinking of socionics in terms of "Ashtons opinion" or "The16types opinion" or "Expat and his cronies opinions". Instead just think about socionics itself, and talk about socionics itself; and if you can't do that, then what kind of backing does your point have anyway? Enough of this. I don't want to hear anyone else say something about socionics ~without actually saying anything about socionics~. All it shows me is that you don't understand the details of what you're talking about.
Last edited by crazedrat; 04-02-2009 at 03:19 AM.
I sort of agree with Steve and Diana. I never understood Allie's inconsistent behavior and flare-ups or the motives behind her actions. What she says/does seems very often alien and unaccountably inimical to me. I don't think she's a bad person though, just someone I have trouble comprehending most of the time.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
The good thing is ultimately you don't need an explanation of other peoples behavior because they don't owe you anything, so you can continue on with your life.. Good to have a life.
just received this in private message:
Well said crazedrat, shadow side you say? Yeah, good explanation. and since Allie is an ISFj we know she did infact mistake herself for her conflictor. So we know that there definitely is some explanation for such a mistyping. But since she was new to socionics, and didn't even really know what her conflictor was.. how to define ENTp, how to think about ENTp.. I wonder if we can even really say she mistook herself for her conflictor at all? Wait a minute... was that your point all along, crazedrat? Hahaha you beat me to it.
Hey crazedrat, I really like how you actually use words to illustrate what you're talking about instead of using blanket statements like "Ashtonian socionics". That would seem like a cop out which might excuse you of ever having to go into detail and make a specific point! But since you don't do that, I can actually read what your point is without having to be able to read your mind, too! After all, what do we all think "Ashtonian socionics" even means? I'm not even sure we all agree! LoL!
Last edited by crazedrat; 04-02-2009 at 03:42 AM.
so it's all agreed upon that jung was unambiguously ILI.
What's really dumb about your argument: that it is simply too unlikely a person can confuse themselves as their conflictor, is that if allie is an ENTp then right now she is confusing herself for her conflictor: ISFj. so LoL @ you, dumbass
Ya, either way you're wrong. Unless she's actually some third type which hasn't yet been mentioned.. Which would make this discussion even more ridiculous
Okay, so now you need to explain what 'third type' Allie is and why you think this. The argument will be retarded, because she is an ISFj. But you must feel the need to make it, so go ahead.
We're also neglecting the fact that despite you thinking Allie is a third type 'in between' ENTp and ISFj, this doesn't change that Allie has typed herself as two seperate conflicting types in and of themselves; and that this tears apart your pointless argument that it is "highly unlikely a person will type themselves as their conflictor ~due to the drastic difference in functions between conflictors~" ... The difference in functions remains regardless of whatever type she is. That is why I called you a dumbass, and why you definitely are a dumbass. Because that argument you made proves nothing about her real type, AND it is proven 100 percent wrong by what we know happened.
Last edited by crazedrat; 04-02-2009 at 05:32 AM.
Yeah, I know. LoL. But your original argument is that ~the functions themselves, of conflict types, are too far apart for the types to be confused~. It doesn't matter what type you are, you're still !Wayyy too off! in guessing conflict pairs, ACCORDING TO YOU; almost to the point where it is ~impossible to guess conflict pairs~. That is exactly what you said up there, in response to me saying Allie just observed her shadow in ENTp (where she was actually seeing ENTj). Which is why:
1: Your argument doesn't have any meaning for what Allies real type is
2: It is in direct conflict with what actually happened
Her being a third type is an entirely different discussion. I think that whole notion neglects two things, too:
1: any real world experience with allie, relying instead on some sort of crappy statistical variance argument in order to justify typing her
2: such a lame statistical analysis only moderately works under the assumption that both guesses were made while understanding socionics thoroughly, which I think really WASN'T the case with her first guess of ENTp
Tell me what is different between guessing a conflict type and guessing a conflict pair. There is no important difference, but you seem to think there is. So can you describe the difference?
It's not the only justification? It's terrible justification ..
Let's consider the possibility that she might be an INFj. There's the Fi dominance there, which by its forcefulness could be mistaken for being blocked with Se; and there's thecreative and role, which by their association (with the
being stronger) they raise the typing of ENTp. Thus both ISFj and ENTp are somewhat justifiable typings for a single person.
I'm not saying that Allie is INFj; actually I don't have an opinion on the matter, except that I would rather think of her as ENTp than ISFj (due to fun times when she first joined the forum).
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
nvm
Last edited by inumbra; 04-03-2009 at 12:50 AM.
all right; so it's established that jung was ILI.
It's funny - initially Allie and Diana were saying the same thing - that there is nothing special or "elite" about gamma. Then it became personal somehow...
Honestly Diana, if someone mistyped me I wouldn't think too fondly of them either.
I get frustrated a lot because of how often Ashton is brought up on this forum. I don't see the point. Sure, he has a different take on socionics than a lot of other people and there are a few that agree with him. Can we accept this and move on?
I did want to point out that I self-typed as ESI before I had ever spoken to Ashton. He did contact me to discuss this, and I listened objectively to what he had to say while retaining my prior knowledge of socionics (which, granted, was limited) and seeing how it fit into the framework of my experiences with it so far. I'm not offended by what you said, but I do wish that you hadn't generalized that statement, because it is not true. Ashton I talk maybe once a month now, and rarely about Socionics.
Also can everyone just shut up about Allie's type? The majority of us (myself included) knew little about socionics when we joined this forum and as a result self-typed incorrectly. I think it's rude to presume to know more about a person than they do themselves. I understand that everyone will have their own opinions, but I don't see the point in rehashing topics that really should be mute.
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
John Muir
it seems as though we've made progress in determining that jung was unequivocally ILI.
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