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    Default The Beatles

    Socionics case study: The Beatles

    I came across an old thread on the Beatles' types, (three years old or thereabouts.) Obviously, that thread was started long before anyone here knew much about Socionics, so the guesses were a bit off, i.e. someone said they were all Alpha. I thought about this b.s. this morning, as I have the week off from school.

    In terms of Socionics, the Beatles worked well together because both Lennon's and Harrison's beta writings were balanced by McCartney's alpha writings. Beatles albums were rarely, if ever, 'too heavy' (the critique frequently levied against both Lennon's and Harrison's solo albums) or 'too light' (the general critique of McCartney's solo albums.)

    More specifically, for every biting, dissonant "Happiness is a Warm Gun," or experimental "A Day In The Life," (both Lennon songs,) McCartney would counter with upbeat songs like "Your Mother Should Know," "Two of Us," or ballads like "I Will" and "The Long and Winding Road."

    Sometimes different quadra voices could be heard in the same Beatles' song, e.g. "I've Got a Feeling," (a typically upbeat McCartney rock n' roll song until Lennon starts singing about having a hard year and wet dreams,) or even the 90s Beatles' song, "Free as a Bird." In other cases, McCartney would write the melody to a Lennon lyric, to make the song more commercially appealing, e.g. "Nowhere Man." Likewise, Lennon would sometimes add lyrics to McCartney songs to give them more bite, e.g. "Getting Better." ("I have to admit/ It's getting better/Better all the time." - McCartney. "It couldn't get much worse." -Lennon.)

    Even the Beatles' albums can be characterized by Socionics quadra, with Sgt. Pepper dominated by alpha themes and songs, (e.g. "A little help from my friends;" "Lovely Rita," down to the album concept and cover art.) The White Album is filled with beta songs and themes, ("Revolution 9; Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except for Me and My Monkey," down to the album cover and concept.)

    John Lennon = ENFj ... His wife, Yoko Ono, is ISTj. Lennon's closest friend in the Beatles was Harrison, another beta NF... Critical of McCartney for years after The Beatles' break-up, (see: "How Do You Sleep?" from Imagine.) That said, Lennon seemed to envy McCartney's post-Beatles commercial success, e.g. reportedly waking Yoko up during the night and asking, "why do they always cover Paul's songs and not mine?" Also saying that "no one has caused [him] more pain in life" than McCartney. To those familiar with Socionics, the case for Lennon as ENFj becomes fairly obvious during interviews, especially post-Beatles, (see interview with Dick Cavett on YouTube.)

    George Harrison = INFp ... Wife Olivia is ESTp. Solo material emphasized religion, Eastern wisdom, and mysticism. Caustic, ironic sense of humor, (see interview with Dick Cavett on YouTube.) Frequently criticized and made fun of McCartney following the Beatles' break-up, and openly resented him before it, (see: Let it Be film.) Looked to Lennon as a mentor. "The quiet Beatle," with the 'I'm looking through you' Ni look you see on people like Nick (strrrng.)

    Paul McCartney = ISFp ... McCartney's long-time wife, Linda, was ENTp. Both were large proponents of vegetarianism and animal rights. As they matured, McCartney and Lennon (and Harrison, for that matter,) did not did not see eye-to-eye beyond music, (or even re: music,) i.e. different philosophies, exemplified by McCartney's reveling in the pastoral and domestic (see Ram, McCartney solo albums) vs. John's politicizing and avant-garde interests (see Plastic Ono Band and Sometime In New York City solo albums.) Defiantly released popular songs about nothing for years following the Beatles break-up, e.g. "Silly Long Songs."

    Ringo Starr = ENTp ... Wife Barbara Bach (former Bond Girl, I'm pretty sure,) is ISFp. Did not write his own songs, for the most part, (except "Octopus' Garden" and "Don't Pass Me By," and maybe a couple others,) although his personality comes through in interviews. Good friends with McCartney, i.e. in the Beatles, would often vacation with McCartney, while Lennon would often vacation with Harrison.

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    I've heard that they were actually into socionics and self-typed as all Gamma.

    Not only does that sound strange, but the self-typing as gamma is kinda ridiculous. I think overall they are Alpha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Not only does that sound strange, but the self-typing as gamma is kinda ridiculous. I think overall they are Alpha.
    Like I said in that massive missive, it depends on which album you're talking about... Overall, I agree with you though--the popular image of the Beatles that survives is of the Sgt. Pepper era, which is decidedly Alpha.

    Perhaps largely b/c Paul McCartney, in all his Alpha-ness, was their most potent and prolific songwriter at the height of their popularity. (Lennon had his moments, for sure, but his influence loomed largest during their early years, e.g. "Help!" and during the white album.)

    There is not a single one of the Beatles, you are right, who is Gamma. (Or Delta for that matter.)

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    How lucky for all 4 of them to have married their Duals. Sweet.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    How lucky for all 4 of them to have married their Duals. Sweet.
    Wp gave me a link which i find very interesting. in there it saids there is a study conducted that about 30% of the people have a dual as their marriage partner which i thought was hard to believe at first, but based on my account of experiences I think that percentage may be legit I have passed by alot of duality partner.

    Here is the link.

    Experiencing Dual Relations
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Also, I'd expect people who marry their duals to be more successful... all that psychic backup has to count for something.

    Of course, marriage isn't the only thing you can do with your dual that will help (e.g. a long-term business partnership).



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Also, I'd expect people who marry their duals to be more successful... all that psychic backup has to count for something.

    Of course, marriage isn't the only thing you can do with your dual that will help (e.g. a long-term business partnership).
    Yes, that makes sense.
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    where did you read the Beatles knew about socionics??? Yeah having all dual spouses is bound to be good for the stability of the band if thats true. I recently read that there sucess comes from their 10,000 hours plus of practice and performing together before they got big. The 10,000 hours of practice is the figure given for people to become masters at any skill.

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    Default The Beatles?

    Don't know if there is a general consensus on this, but I searched the forum to no avail.

    Anyone else think EIE for Lennon?
    What about IEI for McCartney? I actually know little about the man, but some VI and seeing the interaction b/w him and Lennon makes me wonder. His songwriting might vouch for the idea as well. Seems to lack the obscurity that I'd expect, however, being that what they were doing is considered to have been very redefining in its time, it's hard to say. He seems to center around a lot of romanticism conceptually though, and I could very easily see the more tame sort of IEI songwriter there.

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    Beta NF makes sense for Lennon
    McCartney I see as Alpha, maybe ESE?
    I don't know enough about the other two.
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    Sorry, I actually meant IEE for Lennon. I used to post way back before ya'll started using the socionics acronyms.
    Does this greatly conflict with you?
    Beta NF seems to be a worthy consideration for most musicians in these types of positions. I read part of a biography and it was definately steering me in a VERY IEE direction, though.

    And I could see McCartney I could definately see as Alpha as well, though I'd be more inclined to put him as SEI.

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    ENTp makes more sense for lennon. ESFp for mccartney, maybe INTj for harrison and alpha SF for ringo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    ENTp makes more sense for lennon. ESFp for mccartney, maybe INTj for harrison and alpha SF for ringo.
    Or maybe I'm just getting a VERY Ne vibe, fair enough. Why do you say ENTP makes more sense?

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    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 12:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism View Post
    I don't like the Beatles, so obviously they are not Gamma.
    a) how does one not like the Beatles?

    b) most of their music is pretty Alpha, with some Beta mixed in
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    Yeah even my ISFj friend likes The Beatles. Granted we don't like everything about them but they wrote some nice songs. Some of their stuff is way too annoyingly simple though. They come up with a good segment but then ruin the rest of the song. Doesn't every band do that though? I personally like their music a lot.

    Lennon: Ti-ENTp
    McCartney: Fe-ISFp
    Harrison: Ne-INTj
    Starr: ??-????

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    Here's an unrelated song for example that has a pretty decent catchiness, but then they just totally ruin it at 1:23. Though its definitely better than that new remix version.



    The Beatles does it somewhat differently. Their setup is pretty nice in this example, but then when the main melody comes around it's just becomes totally annoying and repetitive quickly. There's no development there or after.



    If you can look beyond the bad, these are examples of still pretty good songs. Though "every breath you take" is much better in my opinion.

    Some Beatles songs I like off the top of my head are Here Comes the Sun, Michelle, and In My life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I don't like the Beatles, so obviously they are not Gamma.
    This is not a sound argument, but one based on an emotional like and dislike as opposed to reason and evidence. Winston Churchill can hate ****** and Stalin, but that does not make the three any less Beta.
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    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 12:18 AM.

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    you can go to where your heart is Galen's Avatar
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    I want to say Ringo Starr is EXFj.

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    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 12:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctures View Post
    I want to say Ringo Starr is EXFj.
    He seems too subdued to me to be Fe leading...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I'm not sure. They just never did it for me. And probably because an association between Beatles music and the unholy visage of shirtless hitta on Stickam/tinychat is forever scarred into my brain.
    Haha! I'm glad I've never had to lay eyes upon such horrors.

    Seriously though, I'm usually skeptical of people who say they don't like the Beatles because their music is so diverse. It usually means the person has had a limited exposure to only one type on Beatles song (usually the "I wanna hold your hand" type). The best excuse I've gotten was the fidelity, and that guy even admitted to liking higher quality Beatles covers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Paul McCartney seems a definite Fe-ISFp to me.
    George Harrison I recall thinking of as likely Ne-INTj.
    John Lennon I wondered Ti-ENTp before though I'm not at all convinced of this. He's someone I still need to look into further.
    Ringo Starr I have no idea.
    I find it hard to see Lennon as anything other than a beta NF. His songs and lyrics are just so dreamy and melancholy, and his post-Beatles music is ridiculously idealistic. Plus, his relationship with Paul seems a little too complex and fraught with difficulties and criticisms to be duality.
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    you can go to where your heart is Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    He seems too subdued to me to be Fe leading...
    That's actually a trait that I find in a lot of EXFj men. Being Fe leading doesn't mean being off-the-walls spastic crazy. I'm open to other suggestions for Starr though.


    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    I find it hard to see Lennon as anything other than a beta NF. His songs and lyrics are just so dreamy and melancholy, and his post-Beatles music is ridiculously idealistic.
    And ENTps can't be idealistic or dreamy or melancholy? You should have a chat with our friend archonalarion haha

    Quote Originally Posted by stanprollyright View Post
    Plus, his relationship with Paul seems a little too complex and fraught with difficulties and criticisms to be duality.
    Duality doesn't mean both parties will get along perfectly in all situations.

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    Beatles has to be Delta
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Beatles has to be Delta
    Why do they have to be Delta?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Why do they have to be Delta?
    Talented and hard working

    Lot's of Love, maybe also ideal love.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    No offense, but stop defending typings solely by equalizing others' input. It's a waste of time and becomes annoying on here. Obviously something like dreamy lyrics favors INFp or ENFj over others, though if there's any twist on that comment or anything you'd like to say about Lennon that defends the typing ENTp, go right ahead. I just think ENTp fits well, I'm not here to play around though.

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    All I did was state my opinion.

    I think most were SLI types.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Not talking to you, sugar diamond.

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    Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 12:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Talented and hard working

    Lot's of Love, maybe also ideal love.
    Gotcha. So no reason at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Gotcha. So no reason at all.
    I'll give an update when I watch a few interviews.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Logos is at the edge of his seat, eagerly waiting for your return.

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    Lennon is ILE-Ti
    Paul is SEI-xx
    Harrison is LII-Ne
    Ringo is Alpha SF

    They're all alpha.

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    Lennon - ILE E6
    McCartney - SEI E3
    Harrison - LII E9
    Starr - SEI E9

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    Seems like a lot of effort to type 4 people

    I don't have any qualms with The McCartney being SEE - clear as day

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    @mu4 persuaded me that Paul is probably SEE, @Radio probably inadvertently made me think George was EII (I think I thought IEI for ages). I keep thinking John was IEI but ILE may well be correct. Ringo as SEI, sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    @mu4 persuaded me that Paul is probably SEE, @Radio probably inadvertently made me think George was EII (I think I thought IEI for ages). I keep thinking John was IEI but ILE LIE may well be correct. Ringo as SEI, sure.
    Paul SEE, George EII, John LIE, and Ringo SEI


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    Just to throw my vote in there:

    McCartney- SEI.

    Harrison- LII

    Lennon- ILE

    Ringo Starr- SEI

    McCartney and Lennon are the most clear in my opinion.

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