View Poll Results: In a debate, my main objective is...

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  • ... to win at all costs [I’m an Alpha]

    2 11.11%
  • ... to arrive at a high truth [I’m an Alpha]

    9 50.00%
  • ... to learn something from my challenger [I’m an Alpha]

    3 16.67%
  • ... something else [please explain]. [I’m an Alpha]

    4 22.22%
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Thread: Alphas: What is your goal in an argument?

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  1. #1
    Creepy-

    Default Alphas: What is your goal in an argument?

    Please, only Alphas respond to this poll [there is a similar poll in each quadra’s section]


    In a debate, my main objective is...
    ... to win at all costs [I’m an Alpha]
    ... to arrive at a high truth [I’m an Alpha]
    ... to learn something from my challenger [I’m an Alpha]
    ... something else [please explain]. [I’m an Alpha]


    ETA: The word "debate" [and "argument," for that matter] is not intended to connote a fight. For the purpose of this discussion, I intended "debate" to mean a discussion in which disagreement is expressed.
    Last edited by female; 01-26-2009 at 02:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Creepy-male

    Default

    Learn something gnu. People who argue to win don't belong in real arguments.

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    I don't argue unless I know I am 100% right, in which case I argue to win.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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  4. #4
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Well, I argue to discover the flaws in reasoning of the opposition.

    high truth ftw.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

  5. #5
    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola aka Bee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    Well, I argue to discover the flaws in reasoning of the opposition.

    high truth ftw.
    Agreed from that persepective, but I voted 'to learn'.... it's almost the same for me.

    A high truth is something learned, discovered from the argument, from the differences between you and the other/s.

    I know it might be a little cliche to my HA, but hey, I'm keen to understand. In this case, I'm keen to understand the differences in opinion between myself and the person I am arguing with so that I can begin to see things from their unique viewpoint, and figure out where their conclusions have come from. If I have enough of this knowledge, I can pre-empt their next move before they make it in terms of Fe and create a more comfortable environment/avoid another conflict (if it rose from a misunderstanding). I actually really REALLY enjoy arguing, but please note the difference between an argument and a negative/threatening conflict (which I cannot stand and will traumatise me).

    I find it specially difficult when arguing with gammas for this reason, as they seem to be unable to differentiate between the two...or should I say.... neither side (alpha and gamma) can differentiate between whether the other is arguing or attacking and hence become defensive-aggressive.
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



  6. #6
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bee View Post
    Agreed from that persepective, but I voted 'to learn'.... it's almost the same for me.

    A high truth is something learned, discovered from the argument, from the differences between you and the other/s.

    I know it might be a little cliche to my HA, but hey, I'm keen to understand. In this case, I'm keen to understand the differences in opinion between myself and the person I am arguing with so that I can begin to see things from their unique viewpoint, and figure out where their conclusions have come from. If I have enough of this knowledge, I can pre-empt their next move before they make it in terms of Fe and create a more comfortable environment/avoid another conflict (if it rose from a misunderstanding). I actually really REALLY enjoy arguing, but please note the difference between an argument and a negative/threatening conflict (which I cannot stand and will traumatise me).

    I find it specially difficult when arguing with gammas for this reason, as they seem to be unable to differentiate between the two...or should I say.... neither side (alpha and gamma) can differentiate between whether the other is arguing or attacking and hence become defensive-aggressive.
    This sounds very idealistic bee, but it is quite hard to keep that chill attitude when you are arguing in real life, especially when you are making someone defend a deep-set belief, like the assassination of JFK.
    D-SEI 9w1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean View Post
    I don't argue unless I know I am 100% right, in which case I argue to win.
    I identify with this.
    I don't argue just to argue and I usually can't stand the people that do this.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean View Post
    I don't argue unless I know I am 100% right, in which case I argue to win.
    look at that. a beta posting in an alpha-only poll. heehee
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  9. #9
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    It's pretty interesting that so far Alpha is the only quadra where people have selected the first option, "to win at all costs." And two people, at that. Hmm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    Learn something gnu. People who argue to win don't belong in real arguments.
    Why not? Because they're being unnecessarily combative, because they're not adhering to respectful debate, something else...?

    -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean View Post
    I don't argue unless I know I am 100% right, in which case I argue to win.
    &
    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    I identify with this.
    I don't argue just to argue and I usually can't stand the people that do this.
    &
    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Sometimes I want to win at all costs, more often I want to arrive at a high truth. Often I just want to air my ideas, but those "arguments" don't last long, so I don't know whether they count. I can also go pretty long reiterating a technicality until someone gets it... I have no idea what to classify that as.

    OK, after reading the other posts... like Jimbean, if I am certain that I am right, I will argue to win (this definitely counts). If I do not know what the truth is, but know some criteria for it, I will argue in search of some higher truth (which can involve countering the other person's points, but no me vs. you situation). If I don't even have that much, I'll just air my ideas (which really doesn't count).

    So I could answer like Jimbean... but the search for knowledge is a gray area, which may or may not count as argument.
    So you start out thinking you’re right before you’ll even enter into an argument... but what if, during the course of a debate, you become convinced that the other person is right? Would you continue to argue your original case and avoid admitting “defeat,” or would you give in?
    Last edited by female; 01-26-2009 at 02:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    It's pretty interesting that so far Alpha is the only quadra where people have selected the first option, "to win at all costs." And two people, at that. Hmm....


    Why not? Because they're being unnecessarily combative, because they're not adhering to respectful debate, something else...?

    -


    &

    So you start out thinking you’re right before you’ll even enter into an argument... but what if, during the course of a debate, you become convinced that the other person is right? Would you continue to argue your original case and avoid admitting “defeat,” or would you give in?
    Rationals never give in
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    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

  11. #11
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    Why not? Because they're being unnecessarily combative, because they're not adhering to respectful debate, something else...?
    Welp, in my experience, as soon as you get an atmosphere of competition, people start either: clamming up and not contributing; or begin to butt horns and make lots of noise without actually going anywhere useful "because I can't back down now, or I'll have lost!"

    I think it's more useful to have conversations where two or more peeps can just transmits their ideas and input and see what congeals, transmutes, explodes, or conquers the human race. My is proudly subordinate in this matter.

    EDIT

    But this is for a discussion.

    In an argument where I'm trying to prove a point, goes Super Sayan 4 and tries to win at all costs. Even if I lose my points, I usually read up on it ASAP and see if I can get a new counter. In such a way, I've had extended discargumessions that last for 3 or so days at a time.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post

    So you start out thinking you’re right before you’ll even enter into an argument... but what if, during the course of a debate, you become convinced that the other person is right? Would you continue to argue your original case and avoid admitting “defeat,” or would you give in?
    I don't like to argue, therefore do my best not to. If I happen to be in an argument with anyone, it's because of a difference of opinion where I think my own opinion is the correct one. If it comes to my attention that I'm actually in the wrong, I'll be the first to admit it and the argument is over.

  13. #13
    Angel of Lightning Brilliand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    So you start out thinking you’re right before you’ll even enter into an argument... but what if, during the course of a debate, you become convinced that the other person is right? Would you continue to argue your original case and avoid admitting “defeat,” or would you give in?
    I will avoid admitting defeat, if possible. Normally this means picking absurd definitions for words; when the strange definitions come to light, we can laugh about it and no one can say I was really wrong.

    EDIT: I suppose that's trying to get out of it - if I find that I am wrong after all, I will try to make it seem like we were arguing over nothing.
    Last edited by Brilliand; 01-26-2009 at 07:53 PM.



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  14. #14
    Creepy-bg

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    goal? why would my life need a goal? that's stupid.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    goal? why would my life need a goal? that's stupid.
    not the goal of your life, the goal of the argument.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    not the goal of your life, the goal of the argument.
    oh lol... I dont argue. if you dont agree with me than whatever.

  17. #17
    redbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    oh lol... I dont argue. if you dont agree with me than whatever.
    spoken like a true 9.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  18. #18
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sappho
    Can you expound on “flaws of reasoning”? Do you mean that you’re trying to see how the other person’s points do or do not fit a consistent system, and if there’s a flaw, you use it as a counterargument? What if the other person points out flaws in your reasoning – how do you react?
    Well, I think you pretty much said it. There is a system of logic that is easily quantifiable by the majority of cases. For example, it would be(imo) fair to say that children love their mothers, even though I can assure you that one would be able to find a case where a kid's mother beat the shit out of them, and therefore there might not be much love there. Because the (hopefully) majority of mothers do well enough that their children love them, I take the above fact as truth.

    Anyway, if a person's points do not accord with what I see as a point in the major system of things, what I would call my mental framework, I would disagree, but I'm not one to raise hell because someone might be off a bit. Now, when someone sits around making presumptuous statements, then I collect my arguments and engage, basing off the proofs that leads to my interpretation of that point that they have missed.

    If someone points out a flaw in my reasoning, there would no need to necessarily back off, because I'm on the logical tree of nodes, seen here.


    As you can see, to get to 9, you need to have 4, 2, and 1. I would consider 1 to be a basis of my mental framework, whatever you want 1 to be. If I argue the validity of let's say, 9 and I am having trouble rationalizing it, then I simply start arguing 4, and up and up until you reach your root node, which is 1 in this diagram. It is a fail-safe protocol, because it is assumed that 1 is someone that cannot be doubted. Then me and the arguer come back and find a common denominator to agree on, both learning more.

    This might not be a useful question, but how important to you is it that the truth fit a logical, consistent system? And when you say “truth,” do you mean a universal truth, or can it be whatever works in a specific situation [even if it is different for other situations]?
    Truth should be able to fit a logical system, then using the information you have, you can extrapolate connections through your ordered knowledge.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    spoken like a true 9.
    I'm just as God made me

  20. #20
    Angel of Lightning Brilliand's Avatar
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    Sometimes I want to win at all costs, more often I want to arrive at a high truth. Often I just want to air my ideas, but those "arguments" don't last long, so I don't know whether they count. I can also go pretty long reiterating a technicality until someone gets it... I have no idea what to classify that as.

    OK, after reading the other posts... like Jimbean, if I am certain that I am right, I will argue to win (this definitely counts). If I do not know what the truth is, but know some criteria for it, I will argue in search of some higher truth (which can involve countering the other person's points, but no me vs. you situation). If I don't even have that much, I'll just air my ideas (which really doesn't count).

    So I could answer like Jimbean... but the search for knowledge is a gray area, which may or may not count as argument.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

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  21. #21
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    I argue to clear misconceptions whether they be mine or my opponents and to test my logic and knowledge.
    The end is nigh

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