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    IMO Minde and Calenwen are right here most of the others are wrong. I think most of you are misinterpreting the reasons ISFjs and INFJs have for their actions.

    ISFjs are holistic perceivers. They see the whole person mirrored from single actions. It's not that they think about someone and judge them, it's that they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is what makes them rethink things if you openly confront them, which is something that they do.

    Example: An ISFj nurse I had not really ever talked to comes to me in the cafeteria and just flat out shouts: "Take your hat off!". I immediately take it off and apologize. Suddenly she's the warmest person ever and for the rest of the day she helps me beyond her well beyond her job description.

    I think you people are mistaking "being absolutely negative and confrontational towards a person" with "judging".

    A much larger problem is introduced if the ISFj is very high Se subtype and actually has quite low capacity for Fi-related forgiving.

    One thing that ISFjs do is that they remember an event which triggered their impulse of confrontation, but if they didn't react, but they can't quite forgive and forget either, they end up dwelling with it, haunted by the memory, repetitively dwelling in negative thoughts and memories about a person. When meeting someone, the person may feel that they have been prejudged. But that word prejudged has nothing to do with socionic judging and nothing to do with Fi. It's the absence of that releasing Fi, the inability of the ISFj to make a genuine judging decision to be friendly towards someone that creates the situation of sincere intense dislike.

    Furthermore, for most ISFjs it's standard operating procedure to be negative towards people. So another thing I've seen is that an ISFj may meet someone and be happy, but be so unused to actually liking someone that they go over the meeting in their head until they remember some little detail that they can dislike and through concentrating on that they restore the original state of confrontation. Again, that's not something personal, that's not Fi but absence of it. The Fi works to build bridges DESPITE all the bad memories.

    To reiterate: ISFj- Se = the mental perceptive snapshot of a situation, concentrating on the problems more often than not
    ISFj-Fi = ability to forgive, if not forget

    From my experience, if the ISFj is given an opportunity to know the reason for an action in such a way that they can relate the single slighting event to a larger positive context, they become quite delightful people in most situations.

    That is how it seems to me. If someone who is actually ISFj or ISTj or INFj wants to correct me, I'd be happy to read whatever you choose to comment on. I'm probably wrong about some things regarding this.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    cut
    That's how I see the situation, too. It's better to concentrate on Se, Fi, Ne; rather than the difference between Ni quadra and Si quadra. An INFj can be understood as a transitioned ISFj, an ISFj that has already forgiven "everything". (well, it'd be better to just say, concrete Fi, rather than INFj in general). When you've forgiven everything, you can concentrate better on what is usually included under the "reasonable" or "judicious" label. (it's clear why, at the peak of resolute, there does not seem to be the time or necessity to pay attention to forgivness).

    In a way:

    However, "good Fi" I guess you could call it, can also be concerned about making the reality right. They care about the people involved and want good to come of what is.
    In a way, this is an ISFj becoming an INFj. (well, this is the problem of not being able to use labels such as IJ-Fi, that would be more appropriate in this situation)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    IMO Minde and Calenwen are right here most of the others are wrong. I think most of you are misinterpreting the reasons ISFjs and INFJs have for their actions.

    ISFjs are holistic perceivers. They see the whole person mirrored from single actions. It's not that they think about someone and judge them, it's that they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is what makes them rethink things if you openly confront them, which is something that they do.

    Example: An ISFj nurse I had not really ever talked to comes to me in the cafeteria and just flat out shouts: "Take your hat off!". I immediately take it off and apologize. Suddenly she's the warmest person ever and for the rest of the day she helps me beyond her well beyond her job description.

    I think you people are mistaking "being absolutely negative and confrontational towards a person" with "judging".

    A much larger problem is introduced if the ISFj is very high Se subtype and actually has quite low capacity for Fi-related forgiving.

    One thing that ISFjs do is that they remember an event which triggered their impulse of confrontation, but if they didn't react, but they can't quite forgive and forget either, they end up dwelling with it, haunted by the memory, repetitively dwelling in negative thoughts and memories about a person. When meeting someone, the person may feel that they have been prejudged. But that word prejudged has nothing to do with socionic judging and nothing to do with Fi. It's the absence of that releasing Fi, the inability of the ISFj to make a genuine judging decision to be friendly towards someone that creates the situation of sincere intense dislike.

    Furthermore, for most ISFjs it's standard operating procedure to be negative towards people. So another thing I've seen is that an ISFj may meet someone and be happy, but be so unused to actually liking someone that they go over the meeting in their head until they remember some little detail that they can dislike and through concentrating on that they restore the original state of confrontation. Again, that's not something personal, that's not Fi but absence of it. The Fi works to build bridges DESPITE all the bad memories.

    To reiterate: ISFj- Se = the mental perceptive snapshot of a situation, concentrating on the problems more often than not
    ISFj-Fi = ability to forgive, if not forget

    From my experience, if the ISFj is given an opportunity to know the reason for an action in such a way that they can relate the single slighting event to a larger positive context, they become quite delightful people in most situations.

    That is how it seems to me. If someone who is actually ISFj or ISTj or INFj wants to correct me, I'd be happy to read whatever you choose to comment on. I'm probably wrong about some things regarding this.
    You are speaking here mostly of the ISFj spectrum. But what effect does Ne have?

    A word associated with Ne is "possibilities", which is what I was thinking would make INFjs more "open" and "forgiving" - less tied to what actually happened and more accepting of differences. Perhaps. Or more open to different realities (though that sounds convoluted to me )... Maybe a better way to put it would be more allowing of different states. (No, that still doesn't sound right...)

    Fi is judging. So why couldn't it judge someone as "bad" just as well as judging them as "good" and deserving of forgiveness?
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    I will add that something about Tom's "snapshots" resonates with me.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    I wrote a response in another forum, here's the main point:

    At 16types, there seems to be a false attribution to holding a grudge with Fi. In my experience, I find it more common in the Beta and Gamma quadras. If I recall correctly, members of Gamma have mentioned that the idea of justice holds incredible importance to them personally. And if we look at periods that were markedly 'Beta', their inspiration to revolution and rebellion, I think, can easily be tied to justice but is somewhat molded into a 'greater' cause, that is, part of the whole package. I think a strong sense of justice is correlated to holding grudges. That is not to say that Alpha and Delta have a weak sense of justice but are more willing to bend the 'rules' and be lenient thus seen as more 'forgiving'.

    Of course, as Minde mentioned:

    "In fact, I would think that they could be quite good at knowing how and being able to shift the reality to help alleviate the consequences, or at least make them turn out better, especially for people they care about."

    This would be done, I imagine, when the guilty has proven hirself improved.

    Basically, I agree with everyone who understands that Fi is not related to holding a grudge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    You are speaking here mostly of the ISFj spectrum. But what effect does Ne have?

    A word associated with Ne is "possibilities", which is what I was thinking would make INFjs more "open" and "forgiving" - less tied to what actually happened and more accepting of differences. Perhaps. Or more open to different realities (though that sounds convoluted to me )... Maybe a better way to put it would be more allowing of different states. (No, that still doesn't sound right...)

    Fi is judging. So why couldn't it judge someone as "bad" just as well as judging them as "good" and deserving of forgiveness?
    I hope my interjection is welcomed.

    I think that Fi, despite judging something about a person as 'good' or 'bad', will create a relationship regardless. For me at least, everybody has both but if the good is more prevalent, the relationship is positive; if the bad heavily outweighs the good, the relationship is negative.

    Where I think Ne and Se comes to place in all of this is for an INFj, the good is weighed by the potential (this person wants to be good, not as bad as they seem, they didn't mean it, etc) while for an ISFj, the good is weighed by what has been observed and experienced (the person did this). In this perspective, one can see how INFj-Fi 'turns' ISFj-Fi and vice versa!



    Quote Originally Posted by Tom
    Originally Posted by JRiddy
    Blah, blah, blah..."Trust me, I'm a doctor."
    Quoted for people's innate trust for physicians with degrees.
    But how does that matter in this situation? Not everyone knows Smilingeyes is a physician, or even has a degree nor does he calls attention to the fact. Totally uncalled for.
    Ceci n'est pas une eii.




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    Quote Originally Posted by tuturututu View Post
    Why is she suddenly the warmest person ever I do not know.
    Because he gave her what she wanted; he responded rightly to the way she thought things should be. My guess is she got warm fuzzies inside. I know for myself, anyway, that when I get warm fuzzies because of someone I'm more likely than not going to do some version of smothering them with affection - which often can take the form of helpful loyalty (or loyal helpfulness).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    I hope my interjection is welcomed.
    I welcome any opinions or ideas or interjections related to the topic at hand.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    But how does that matter in this situation? Not everyone knows Smilingeyes is a physician, or even has a degree nor does he calls attention to the fact. Totally uncalled for.
    Yes. Precisely.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    I think that Fi, despite judging something about a person as 'good' or 'bad', will create a relationship regardless. For me at least, everybody has both but if the good is more prevalent, the relationship is positive; if the bad heavily outweighs the good, the relationship is negative.
    That makes decent sense.

    Where I think Ne and Se comes to place in all of this is for an INFj, the good is weighed by the potential (this person wants to be good, not as bad as they seem, they didn't mean it, etc) while for an ISFj, the good is weighed by what has been observed and experienced (the person did this). In this perspective, one can see how INFj-Fi 'turns' ISFj-Fi and vice versa!
    This is exactly right. INFjs will always see more latent potential in people, which can possibly be brought out in a new context. Whereas ISFjs are much more definite in their assessments of people; maybe less broad in their appraisals, but what they do conclude is always very reliable information.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    You are speaking here mostly of the ISFj spectrum. But what effect does Ne have?

    A word associated with Ne is "possibilities", which is what I was thinking would make INFjs more "open" and "forgiving" - less tied to what actually happened and more accepting of differences. Perhaps. Or more open to different realities (though that sounds convoluted to me )... Maybe a better way to put it would be more allowing of different states. (No, that still doesn't sound right...)

    Fi is judging. So why couldn't it judge someone as "bad" just as well as judging them as "good" and deserving of forgiveness?
    Ne and Se are both ways to perceive problems. The difference theoretically is that Se is short-term, immediate concrete issues that one can face immediately. It tends to result in confrontations. Ne results in more vague, more abstract, but more final approximations. Ne observes issues that one can't confront.

    Anyway, Fi is judging of relationships, and how to create them and maintain them. It is not judging of qualities. Se and Ne perceive qualities and may result in long-term negative perceptions of people. Ne perceptions are, if anything a whole lot more final, as unto judgments (though having nothing to do with socionics judging.)

    I don't know of a person with high Fi who had any interest in creating a BAD relationship with anyone. As long as IxFj concentrates on their Fi they seem interested in keeping up and finding ways to advance a relationship, despite issues.

    For example, in this thread jriddy did something that was perceived by Minde as not good but she found a way to approach jriddy and attempt to find a constructive solution. If jriddy continues to demonstrate qualities and actions that Minde finds requiring correction, it will become more difficult to maintain such a relationship and if Minde's attempts continue to result in nothing good, Ne will start to suggest that there may be something deeply wrong with jriddy and it's just not a good idea to have any kind of a relationship with him at all, a sort of final silent giving up. (Though sometimes this giving up is not quite so silent, sometimes it's a vocal cry of desperation, and even then it may not be quite so final, if the state of Fi is restored.)

    Anyway, the judging of objects is Te and Fe. It tends to be ENFjs who are most known for their fiery rhetoric against individuals or groups that they find to be completely evil and worthy of their ire. While I don't think an INFj or ISFj is necessarily incapable of doing the same thing, I don't see how they would have any use for Fe given their lifestyles.

    Also, it causes ME no problem to JUDGE jriddy with Te, DESPITE that I PERCEIVED that what he said was kind of funny.

    In relation to that I'd like to note that the person known on this forum for bannings is ExTj. I OTOH didn't even put jriddy on ignore though it might be that I should have.

    Again, quite willing to take criticism.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Ne and Se are both ways to perceive problems. The difference theoretically is that Se is short-term, immediate concrete issues that one can face immediately. It tends to result in confrontations. Ne results in more vague, more abstract, but more final approximations. Ne observes issues that one can't confront.
    Why more final?

    (Thank you for answering my questions, by the way.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    For example, in this thread jriddy did something that was perceived by Minde as not good but she found a way to approach jriddy and attempt to find a constructive solution. If jriddy continues to demonstrate qualities and actions that Minde finds requiring correction, it will become more difficult to maintain such a relationship and if Minde's attempts continue to result in nothing good, Ne will start to suggest that there may be something deeply wrong with jriddy and it's just not a good idea to have any kind of a relationship with him at all, a sort of final silent giving up. (Though sometimes this giving up is not quite so silent, sometimes it's a vocal cry of desperation, and even then it may not be quite so final, if the state of Fi is restored.)
    That is basically correct in terms of the process. (A not-directly-related side note stemming from a separate conversation: BTW, Tom, this here is a good example of tying the theory closely to practice. This is the kind of thing I look for when someone is explaining something theoretical to me - an example of how it would actually work. That way it can be cross-checked with reality.)

    And, for the record, what I ended up saying was a bit more toned down (and hopefully diplomatic) than my initial reaction, which was basically -->

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Also, it causes ME no problem to JUDGE jriddy with Te, DESPITE that I PERCEIVED that what he said was kind of funny.
    To be honest, I was mainly upset for your sake, though I actually would like to keep things relatively on-topic. If you don't mind it, however, then I will try not to do so either, not on a personal level, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Again, quite willing to take criticism.
    That makes me quite happy.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    IMO Minde and Calenwen are right here most of the others are wrong. I think most of you are misinterpreting the reasons ISFjs and INFJs have for their actions.

    ISFjs are holistic perceivers. They see the whole person mirrored from single actions. It's not that they think about someone and judge them, it's that they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is what makes them rethink things if you openly confront them, which is something that they do.

    Example: An ISFj nurse I had not really ever talked to comes to me in the cafeteria and just flat out shouts: "Take your hat off!". I immediately take it off and apologize. Suddenly she's the warmest person ever and for the rest of the day she helps me beyond her well beyond her job description.

    I think you people are mistaking "being absolutely negative and confrontational towards a person" with "judging".

    A much larger problem is introduced if the ISFj is very high Se subtype and actually has quite low capacity for Fi-related forgiving.

    One thing that ISFjs do is that they remember an event which triggered their impulse of confrontation, but if they didn't react, but they can't quite forgive and forget either, they end up dwelling with it, haunted by the memory, repetitively dwelling in negative thoughts and memories about a person. When meeting someone, the person may feel that they have been prejudged. But that word prejudged has nothing to do with socionic judging and nothing to do with Fi. It's the absence of that releasing Fi, the inability of the ISFj to make a genuine judging decision to be friendly towards someone that creates the situation of sincere intense dislike.

    Furthermore, for most ISFjs it's standard operating procedure to be negative towards people. So another thing I've seen is that an ISFj may meet someone and be happy, but be so unused to actually liking someone that they go over the meeting in their head until they remember some little detail that they can dislike and through concentrating on that they restore the original state of confrontation. Again, that's not something personal, that's not Fi but absence of it. The Fi works to build bridges DESPITE all the bad memories.

    To reiterate: ISFj- Se = the mental perceptive snapshot of a situation, concentrating on the problems more often than not
    ISFj-Fi = ability to forgive, if not forget

    From my experience, if the ISFj is given an opportunity to know the reason for an action in such a way that they can relate the single slighting event to a larger positive context, they become quite delightful people in most situations.

    That is how it seems to me. If someone who is actually ISFj or ISTj or INFj wants to correct me, I'd be happy to read whatever you choose to comment on. I'm probably wrong about some things regarding this.
    Blah, blah, blah..."Trust me, I'm a doctor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Blah, blah, blah..."Trust me, I'm a doctor."
    Be constructive - as I know you can be - or please don't post in my thread. Thanks.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Blah, blah, blah..."Trust me, I'm a doctor."
    Quoted for people's innate trust for physicians with degrees.
    Wond'ring aloud, How we feel today. Last night sipped the sunset, My hand in her hair. We are our own saviours, As we start both our hearts, Beating life Into each other. ~Ian Anderson

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    How can they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is their judging function(which judges is something good or bad). Fi is the one who tells them that it's worthless. Se just tells them what's happening infront of them with no judgement involved. Nor is it good nor bad, it just happens.
    The qualities of objects are always extrovert functions. Fi can't judge whether something is good or bad. Se can. Ne can. Fe can. Te can. Fi can judge what kind of a relationship one has with a subject and how to mold it.


    Of course, as it is the Fi what makes them to judge you bad(or good) in the first place.
    See above.

    So basically, she comes to you in the cafeteria, admeasures you using mainly her Se, perceives that your hat is on your head which is bad in her Fi-system-of-value-judgements, then she blurts on you to take your hat off. (Why she blurts on you immediately I do not know, maybe being tactical has something to do with it). So now your hat is taken, she scans you again and sees your head being naked. And now everything is OK because that's good in her Fi-system-of-value-judgements. Why is she suddenly the warmest person ever I do not know. Maybe being tactical has something to do with it.
    It seems to me that you are advocating that the person has a deep-seated valuesystem against hats in cafeterias. I am arguing that she just had a knee-jerk reaction towards something that she disliked. I think my choice is more likely. Anyway, I don't think that the kind of structure that you are advocating is completely impossible, I just think it is quite a bit rarer than the knee-jerk reaction. And anyway, the kind of thing you're suggesting takes a significant amount of time to happen. She would've had to spend a while really thinking about how to correct her relationship with people with hats and decided that the best choice is to attack them on the spot. Admittedly, possible, but I don't think that's likely.

    OK, but bear in mind that Fi isn't just forgiving, cupcakes and naptimes. It can have it's ugly face also(which rarely, if almost never, appears ugly to the person who is using it).
    It has far more consistent weak and not so nice effects than the one you're stressing here. But I think those qualities are beyond the scope of this conversation.

    ......


    Pretty much agreeing with Cyclops on most things. There is something that I'd like to point out about his message but can't due to prior obligations towards an involved person.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Be constructive - as I know you can be - or please don't post in my thread. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Quoted for people's innate trust for physicians with degrees.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    But how does that matter in this situation? Not everyone knows Smilingeyes is a physician, or even has a degree nor does he calls attention to the fact. Totally uncalled for.
    *Experimental data received*

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Ne and Se are both ways to perceive problems. The difference theoretically is that Se is short-term, immediate concrete issues that one can face immediately. It tends to result in confrontations. Ne results in more vague, more abstract, but more final approximations. Ne observes issues that one can't confront.
    Hmm...this seems like an interesting way to describe Ne and Se, albeit from a very Te perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagrant Pterodactyl
    Anyway, Fi is judging of relationships, and how to create them and maintain them. It is not judging of qualities. Se and Ne perceive qualities and may result in long-term negative perceptions of people. Ne perceptions are, if anything a whole lot more final, as unto judgments (though having nothing to do with socionics judging.)

    I don't know of a person with high Fi who had any interest in creating a BAD relationship with anyone. As long as IxFj concentrates on their Fi they seem interested in keeping up and finding ways to advance a relationship, despite issues.
    I'm not sure about Ne perceptions being all that "final." If anything, I would think that would have to do more with temperament than Ne vs. Se. In fact, being an Fe-seeking Ne type I feel makes me inclined to see Ne data as the "access points" for inner change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Why does your avatar guy look so sad?
    For example, in this thread jriddy did something that was perceived by Minde as not good but she found a way to approach jriddy and attempt to find a constructive solution. If jriddy continues to demonstrate qualities and actions that Minde finds requiring correction, it will become more difficult to maintain such a relationship and if Minde's attempts continue to result in nothing good, Ne will start to suggest that there may be something deeply wrong with jriddy and it's just not a good idea to have any kind of a relationship with him at all, a sort of final silent giving up. (Though sometimes this giving up is not quite so silent, sometimes it's a vocal cry of desperation, and even then it may not be quite so final, if the state of Fi is restored.)
    Is it Ne that would suggest that? Because most Alpha Ne types probably would not regard my levity as indicative of a deficiency of character or anything like that. In fact, not taking things too seriously tends to endear me to other alphas more often than not it would seem. Contrastingly, I have found that my natural personality really bothers most Fi-IxFjs. ISFjs seem to mostly avoid me, and I them. Fi-INFjs, on the other hand, try to "correct" me, which I find to be highly moralizing and presumptuous even when I try to understand that they have the best of intentions. At my last place of work, my Fi-INFj boss used to harp on me about "dependability and hard work" in a tone that I found to be quite condescending and for reasons that made no sense to me. It's not that I think that he was holding a grudge so much as he was unable to trust me as he was expecting my more ostensible behavior (Te) to bely inner qualities (Ne) that allowed him to trust me (Fi).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Feel-good
    Anyway, the judging of objects is Te and Fe. It tends to be ENFjs who are most known for their fiery rhetoric against individuals or groups that they find to be completely evil and worthy of their ire. While I don't think an INFj or ISFj is necessarily incapable of doing the same thing, I don't see how they would have any use for Fe given their lifestyles.

    Also, it causes ME no problem to JUDGE jriddy with Te, DESPITE that I PERCEIVED that what he said was kind of funny.
    Judge away. I can take it. Who knows, I might find it to be quite a turn on. I do hope you understand that I mean no personal offense. Frankly, I can't trust people who can't take a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sausage Biscuits
    In relation to that I'd like to note that the person known on this forum for bannings is ExTj. I OTOH didn't even put jriddy on ignore though it might be that I should have.

    Again, quite willing to take criticism.
    Thanks for not putting me on ignore. I like to get all productive about 2-3 times per moon cycle.

    Hugs and Kisses,

    Riddy

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

  15. #15
    Smilingeyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy
    Hmm...this seems like an interesting way to describe Ne and Se, albeit from a very Te perspective.

    I'm not sure about Ne perceptions being all that "final." If anything, I would think that would have to do more with temperament than Ne vs. Se. In fact, being an Fe-seeking Ne type I feel makes me inclined to see Ne data as the "access points" for inner change.
    My description of Ne and Se was correct to my knowledge only in so far as it relates to the IJ temperament. For ENTps I would rather call Ne ephemeral, flighty and glorious and Se as brutal, intense and impactful... amongst other things.

    Is it Ne that would suggest that? Because most Alpha Ne types probably would not regard my levity as indicative of a deficiency of character or anything like that. In fact, not taking things too seriously tends to endear me to other alphas more often than not it would seem. Contrastingly, I have found that my natural personality really bothers most Fi-IxFjs. ISFjs seem to mostly avoid me, and I them. Fi-INFjs, on the other hand, try to "correct" me, which I find to be highly moralizing and presumptuous even when I try to understand that they have the best of intentions. At my last place of work, my Fi-INFj boss used to harp on me about "dependability and hard work" in a tone that I found to be quite condescending and for reasons that made no sense to me. It's not that I think that he was holding a grudge so much as he was unable to trust me as he was expecting my more ostensible behavior (Te) to bely inner qualities (Ne) that allowed him to trust me (Fi).
    I agree with all of this. My prior comment causes no paradox with this. Both are true as far as I know.

    Judge away. I can take it. Who knows, I might find it to be quite a turn on. I do hope you understand that I mean no personal offense. Frankly, I can't trust people who can't take a joke.
    Were I to meet you face to face, I'd take a joke quite easily. I'd probably like you a lot more in person. I've worked for two ENTp bosses and enjoyed both of them. Anyway, thanks, I really appreciate what you did here. I feel like I owe you one ( a small one, but nevertheless).

    Thanks for not putting me on ignore. I like to get all productive about 2-3 times per moon cycle.

    Hugs and Kisses,

    Riddy
    ...

    LOL@Vagrant Pterodactyl

    It's a shingouz. Look it up, you'll find something good.

    @Why does your avatar guy look so sad?

    To cancel out my shiny happy people name.

    @Dr Feel-good

    I thought you would've chosen Strangelove.

    @Sausage Biscuits

    WTF? Anyway, thanks and have a good one.

    Sausage Biscuits
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

  16. #16
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    An ESI just spent 20+ minutes talking to me about something that is still bothering him.

    Basically, he feels like it is to the point where "there's nothing more he can do", and "It's basically up to the other person".

    I think to some extent, but dominants are that way, when they get into grudge mode or potential grudge mode, they sort of sit back and wait for the other person to make their move - to put more information into things. They see the other person as responsible for creating new interactions, generating more data for them to interpret.

    Back to him, though, he basically has described a few key events that are very significant to him. Particularly, in this case, there is one incident that changed the tide on how he thought about someone. Since that time, he's felt adversely about the person. He hasn't totally cut the person off yet, but, he's at the point where he firmly feels like it is up to the other person to apologize or otherwise.

    He also has said things like "well, if they ever need anything from me down the road, forget them". Etc.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    Where I think Ne and Se comes to place in all of this is for an INFj, the good is weighed by the potential (this person wants to be good, not as bad as they seem, they didn't mean it, etc) while for an ISFj, the good is weighed by what has been observed and experienced (the person did this). In this perspective, one can see how INFj-Fi 'turns' ISFj-Fi and vice versa!
    I like this. Well said.
    Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves.
    John Muir

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuturututu View Post
    How can they perceive someone to be wholly worthless with Se. Fi is their judging function(which judges is something good or bad). Fi is the one who tells them that it's worthless. Se just tells them what's happening infront of them with no judgement involved. Nor is it good nor bad, it just happens.
    I don't think that just because Fi is a "judging" function, that it is the one which makes the determinations of good/bad, worth, etc. Because you have too look at its operational nature; not its title. Fi (like Ti) is about invariant relations between objects; it is implicit and more immutable than not (as it establishes internal 'cores' of sorts). I would actually expect Se to be more prone to assessing someone's worth (similar with Ne), because it is a function that deals with forms, content, and properties of discrete entities. (unlike Ne), the way it registers data (not assesses), is by gauging immediately observable qualities about the thing at hand; like holding a ball in your hand and judging its latent 'physical' attributes. This type of understanding is very concrete, with a preference for past experience, rather than potential for different contexts. Where Fi comes in, is in determining the subject's internal connection with the given person/object. "This is who they are, this is who I am, and they combine like this" -- an internal state is reached, thus you know what the 'nature' of that relation is. So, Ne and Se are about the properties, while Ti and Fi will assess the relationships.

    Of course, as it is the Fi what makes them to judge you bad(or good) in the first place.
    Not really. Anyone can judge good or bad; that is too general an idea to be attributed solely to one function. The functional preferences will simply color one's determination of these qualities.
    Last edited by strrrng; 01-21-2009 at 03:50 PM.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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