Because theres a lot of controversy over the descriptions I've read about socionics, Im asking you guys....
How does Fe polr manifest itself?
How does Fi polr manifest itself?
Because theres a lot of controversy over the descriptions I've read about socionics, Im asking you guys....
How does Fe polr manifest itself?
How does Fi polr manifest itself?
The end is nigh
My opinion:
E*Tps like to engage a group of people into a laughter monologue because they (I) dislike being too close to people. This avoids intimate conversations, which are potentially unpleasant, because we believe people judges us unfairly whereas we don't judge people.as polr makes us believe that people wants to betray us.
as polr makes I*Tps force themselves to be serious and keep quiet. When a group of people laughs and jokes, they isolate from this and show their aloofness. At the same time, if someone talks about a new project, I*Tps reject them because they are very down-to-earth.
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp![]()
DCNH: Dominant![]()
--> perhaps Normalizing
![]()
Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
If you read the ISFp-ENTp duality text in Socioniko.net, it says something like this: "the Searcher is unceremonious, he's out of place. He cannot regulate the distance in communication. He's too credulous about people, too kind to those who envy him"
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp![]()
DCNH: Dominant![]()
--> perhaps Normalizing
![]()
Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp![]()
DCNH: Dominant![]()
--> perhaps Normalizing
![]()
Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
Boy, that doesn't sound like me at all. If I'm with my friends, I love getting them to laugh, and appreciate when they make jokes, including crude humor ... If I don't know the people well, I get downright bored if there's not some lightheartedness and laughter to draw me out of my natural aloofness. And if someone talks about a project, I often eagerly relate by going into Te-spew, offering up semi-related tidbits of data I've absorbed from my lifetime of intellectual dilettante-ism.
There was a thread not too long ago about Fe polr, where tereg posted examples of crowds of people engaging in communal displays, such as clapping or dancing together, and just watching the youtubes made me squirm. That may be along the lines of what you were getting at with the first sentence quoted above?
SLIOriginally Posted by Charles Bukowski
Well, I've an ISTpsubtype who loves to joke when surrounded by old friends, from time to time. On the other hand, INTps never behave that way.
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp![]()
DCNH: Dominant![]()
--> perhaps Normalizing
![]()
Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
emotional retardation
it isn't fun
it makes me weep and kill babies
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
So would that mean you have some kind of mental retardation?
that made no sense, but that's Ti polr for you
So there is hardly any secret, the most typical interpretations of Fe and Fi PoLR are the following...
Fi-PoLR, ignorant to the feelings of others - immoral
Fe-PoLR, ignorant to the mood/atmosphere - boring
however, I've been recently thinking about this, both function are essentially ethical, and essentially "feeling", one is merely one's feelings towards some object and another one's inner feelings, one is a subjective feeling, the other objective. So essentially they are two aspects to a single whole, that whole being feelings or ethics...
So I'd think that the above interpretation is incorrect. Fi/Fe-PoLR are weak in terms of all feelings and ethics, because it is a necessary consequence of their strength in thinking.
The distinction between Fi and Fe being in the super-ego or being part of what is sought by from the dual is merely a dichotomy of preference.
One form of their weakness is seen by them as threatening and psychologically draining/stressful, another form is seen by them as comfortable and psychologically comforting.
The way I've come to interpret these are the following...
Fe-PoLR => Finds feelings out in the atmosphere as uncomfortable, prefers to keep these held inwards, subjective, and personal between people in relationships. Therefore they seem boring possibly, but only in so far as it correlate to their insecurity. Someone way actually find them quite likable/fun to be around after enough energy is invested in a relationship.
Fi-PoLR => Finds their inner held subjective feelings and their feelings of attachment in relationships to be uncomfortable. Therefore they seem immoral, irreverant, and disrespectful. However when in a particular atmosphere they may seem to open up more and express this inner subjectivity and feelings for relationships more.
If you read through these you can see the basic principle is that, both are weak in feelings and ethics however they have a preferred "polarity" if you will on how they receive these ethics and feeling inward. One direction leads to insecurity and the other direction leads to comfort. I think this is the key point. If one is comfortable however, there is little need for guard and their source of insecurity goes away. Duality is like making a positive connection in a circuit.
The energy of a feeler to a thinker can be threatening or comforting depending on what its "polarity" is.
The Fe energy is comforting to a Fi-PoLR but threatening to a Fe-PoLR
and vice versa
However the other observation is between ethical types neither type of feeling energy is threatening to them?
Why is this not so for the thinker?
Quite simply because their is a particular quality to their weakness, one is a sort of infantile need for growth in an area and the other a sort of infantile need for security. I use infantile in a non-socionics sense -- in a sense of lacking development/maturity.
Only through pressure applied to the area of growth (the dual seeking functions) does this add competency in the weak area (feeling in this example) and alleviate insecurities in the other area.
I'd find it interesting to note the differences of say an ILE interacting with an ESI versus an ILE interacting with an SEI and ESI.
I'd guess that in the first case their would be superficial interest with both members guards up.
However in the other case the SEI would act as a sort of intermediary or conduit. Being able to digest what the ESI is saying into a less threatening way, strengthening the bond between the ILE and SEI. However when the ILE responds, this would create tension in the ESI but the SEI would be able to digest its impact through its base functions and relate this to the ESI, although not directly in terms of a dual seeking function, but rather in terms of how the NeTi of the ILE has some impact related to Sensation and Feeling in a way that makes sense to the ESI but may not alleviate their insecurity -- just neutralize any sense of threat. The reverse would be true for the opposite flow, the SEI alleviates the ILE's insecurity as the ESI speaks. A complete loop....
ILE/LIE interacting with SEI/ESI would work better, but their would be a particular flow of information.... The conflictors would choose to communicate through another person rather than directly, as this would cause increased stress.
At any small rate this is a short tangent from the base idea of this topic, which is, simply stated.....
Fe and Fi PoLR do not represent simplistic ideas such as immorality or boringness
Neither do Fe or Fi egos represent simplistic ideas such as being pious/moral or being fun/enthused
Ultimately Fe/Fi represent two "orientations" of feeling, much like north/south or up/down, expect in this case these orientations are subjective/objective.
The Fe/Fi PoLR therefore represent an orientation of vulnerability concerning their weakness
Whereas Fe/Fi DS represents an orientation of comfort concerning their weakness
Both elements, the DS and PoLR work together cohesively as a system of weak function with the goal of alleviating anxiety/insecurity by seeking comfort in a preferred orientation.
Thoughts?
Is this Demonstrative?
I'll say your presentation is accurate. Though I wonder were people's ideas ofand
PoLR really limited to:
and not:Fi-PoLR, ignorant to the feelings of others - immoral
Fe-PoLR, ignorant to the mood/atmosphere - boring
?The Fe/Fi PoLR therefore represent an orientation of vulnerability concerning their weakness
Not to criticize but I thought it was already well-known. Perhaps it was just me(I am NT after all), or is there a higher point I'm not noticing?
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
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Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor
It is, but a lot of people love to make themselves feel better by claiming "everyone [insert idiotic idea about socionics that no one takes seriously here], but it's really [something really obvious]", never realizing they only make themselves look ignorant in the process.
Yes you've somehow managed to unveil my secret motivation, please don't tell anyone!
Besides I'd say the real idiots are the ones who take those idiotic ideas that people say in jest as real food for thought, so really this does serve a purpose to a degree, because it helps distinguish those idiots from the ones who are conscious of the fact their fallacious ideas are being said in jest.
Also I do not care about making myself look ignorant, I only care about whether I am ignorant or not, after all no one likes someone who is pretentious about their intellect, well maybe some people do, but usually its a clusterfuck of a bunch of phonies attempting to one up each other by sounding more and more intellectual without their being anything really accomplished except satisfying each others egos -- which is fine if that's you thing.
Last edited by male; 03-27-2011 at 07:43 PM.
I would say no, I think you are over focusing perhaps on those two sentences, all the parts in between are really what are valuable in my mind.
What I think most people think of as PoLR is more like a "bad function" like it was a hand or something they had a birth defect and doesn't function as well.
What most people I think lack, is this concept of connecting what the PoLR means in relation to the other functions.
Also people are very keen on pre-digested versions of what a "bad function" means... like I said most people find Fe-PoLR to sound a bit abstract, so they prefer something more concrete like "a boring personality".
I think this is ultimately flawed, I think its better to view the PoLR as being justxaposed against the dual seeking functions, the PoLR as an aspect of the "weak functions".
In other words.... Your "weakness" as consisting of super-ego and dual seeking functions.
Most people overfocus on the PoLR aspect of "weakness" and fail to remember that the dual seeking functions are weak also.
Really thats sort of what I'm trying to get at, and correct me if I'm wrong but I usually don't hear this discussed.
I think alsoIs deceptively simple, however really the key word here is "orientation of vulnerability". At first this sentence sounds like I'm saying "A PoLR is a weakness" with fancy language, but I'm really not -- its connected with this idea of orientation.Originally Posted by sentence
Imagine a sheet of paper with a front and back side.... two orientations to its area
Imagine this sheet of paper representing "feeling"
One orientation would be Fi --> Subjective Feeling
One orientation would be Fe --> Objective Feeling
The relation between these orientations is that one is welcomed and the other is unwelcome and insecure. Although they both are feeling, its as though ones weakness has a "control structure" -- shutting out undesirable forms of that weakness and taking in desirable forms, much like a lock with tumblers.
I think that is the key.... "orientation of vulnerability" is what I'm getting at... it doesn't mean you simply suck at this function... but its the aspect of your weakness that you block out because it contains your insecurities while the opposite orientation is one you don't block out. It's not merely a weakness but also a preferential orientation... i.e. the "valued and unvalued" aspect of the PoLR.... the aspect most people neglect.
Some people are dangerously close to considering valued/weak functions, i.e. the dual functions as almost strengths in themselves... for example many people assume if they are beta they are awesome/like Ni,Fe,Se,Ti ... when in reality half of those are weaknesses... they also forgot their unvalued/strong functions. There is an overemphasis on quadra functions and non-quadra functions I see a lot.
People are acustomed thinking of the PoLR that the people from other quadras hit and what people form their own quadra doesn't hit.
I could be wrong but I've seen this a lot, and I could provide at least a few skeptics of "concrete" evidence in terms of quotes to bring a certain level of specifivity to my argument.
Also I'm not attempting to come up with some "groundbreaking" idea -- maybe this is, maybe it isn't, but at least its a discussion and if you already agree then at least we are soldifying our understand as a community or at least having an interesting conversation (if its boring don't waste your time reading it). Second I'm not attempting to target individuals as being incorrect in their understanding -- I'm more concerned with developing a concept than with judging the correctness of other peoples ideas.
I don't see Polr's as weakness as much as I see them as necessities to functioning of the Ego functions.
For example an SLI has Fe-Polr because Fe disturbs his calm and quiet Si, so it's obvious that he doesn't like Fe and cannot handle it very well.
The SLE wants to be independent and free, strong, this is due to his Se as leading function, so he HAS to be indifferent to feelings of others and insensitive in many instances, otherwise that would threaten his base function and his personality would collapse.
Same goes for every type. The Polr is a consequence of the leading function.
Interesting to notice that the Polr is always the very opposite of the creative function, as in Te/Fe, Fe/Te, Ni/Si, always the element in the Jungian dichotomies that the person does not prefer, in the very same intro or extroverted direction as the creative function. So if you would use your Polr well, you would exterminate your Ego functions and collapse.
Yeah they're the same thing, asuming you meant Creative.
As far as I know, the two conflicting types of information are two contradictory views, both suitable for the same thing. So what do you mean by "more suitable"? Situations like when you have to eat human flesh, feeling bad about it if you have weak Logic (or maybe Sensing too)? I think this is imposed by the society, the mentality, so basically you deal with conflicting information imposed by people - including yourself - not by the actual situation.
Here, assuming that extreme scenario is Fi VS Ti, what's more appropriate:
- Ti because it's consistent with surviving? - basically the fact that the flesh is human means nothing, it's technically just meat;
- or Fi because it's consistent with our mentality? - it's not just meat, it's human flesh, you can't eat it just like that.
ESI:ugghugghharbluorganicmblpieafdifjeughughfranca isaughgoodaasurghurghvegetarianuhgawrawr
ILE to SEI :wat.
SEI: oh my little hupsybunny!she said she's going to make a pie a la fécale for us! it is a french recipe that uses the feces of exclusively organically nourished cattle.it's a vegetarian recipe! this way you can take in every valuable nutritient that you can find in meat without actually eating meat!
ILE:i love you.
ESI = ESE
SEI = SEE
ILE = ILI
/mylife
It's accurate.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
Socionics Tests Database
Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Wrong, though if you think you're onto something, can you explain the difference? What is this "objective feeling"? What makes Fi subjective, unlike Fe? Where does it refer to the subject when Fe does not? What in the type traits, behavior, descriptions - anything that relates to sociotype personality - makes you conclude this, considering that in Socionics theory it is no such thing?
In what you wrote I saw Fe being totally subjective, which I actually agree with limiting ourselves to these cases, however you contradict it with calling it "objective". Both moral/immoral and interesting/boring are subjective, as they necessarily involve a subject to exist.
I didn't pull the subjective/objective thing out of my ass, its referenced in Jung's psychological types, as he explains the nature of introversion/extroversion and the extroverted and introverted forms of functions.
That I didn't just invent because I felt like it, although Jung did, so I guess you could criticize that.... if you really wanted to
I understand that the forum isn't going to be reflective, but what she has said elsewhere has been applied to the whole world as well (even recently: "It is I who is the rare type. He'll have to search the whole world for another EII), so I wanted to address it here.
I don't doubt that some EIIs here aren't EIIs though.. and not Se PoLR. It's possible that they are Se role, and IEE (I'm kind of curious if subtypes could affect this too). Or some other type. But just because some EIIs seemed less "Se PoLR" to Maritsa than she is means nothing. I don't even know if she is EII herself, but she has used her own behavior (which is on the extreme end) as a litmus test for everyone else. That needs to be corrected. Typology isn't about behavior... especially one person's.