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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Default Fi and Fe PoLRs

    Because theres a lot of controversy over the descriptions I've read about socionics, Im asking you guys....

    How does Fe polr manifest itself?

    How does Fi polr manifest itself?
    The end is nigh

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    My opinion:

    E*Tps like to engage a group of people into a laughter monologue because they (I) dislike being too close to people. This avoids intimate conversations, which are potentially unpleasant, because we believe people judges us unfairly whereas we don't judge people. as polr makes us believe that people wants to betray us.

    as polr makes I*Tps force themselves to be serious and keep quiet. When a group of people laughs and jokes, they isolate from this and show their aloofness. At the same time, if someone talks about a new project, I*Tps reject them because they are very down-to-earth.
    ILE "Searcher"
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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    If you read the ISFp-ENTp duality text in Socioniko.net, it says something like this: "the Searcher is unceremonious, he's out of place. He cannot regulate the distance in communication. He's too credulous about people, too kind to those who envy him"
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    My opinion:

    E*Tps like to engage a group of people into a laughter monologue because they (I) dislike being too close to people. This avoids intimate conversations, which are potentially unpleasant, because we believe people judges us unfairly whereas we don't judge people. as polr makes us believe that people wants to betray us.
    really? awww, that makes me kinda sad. like I wanna show them that it's okay, that they won't be judged and that it's okay to be close to someone.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, narrow minded people quickly judges others. And they are usually wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    really? awww, that makes me kinda sad. like I wanna show them that it's okay, that they won't be judged and that it's okay to be close to someone.
    That's what they pay you for!
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Twist-Tie Spider iAnnAu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    as polr makes I*Tps force themselves to be serious and keep quiet. When a group of people laughs and jokes, they isolate from this and show their aloofness. At the same time, if someone talks about a new project, I*Tps reject them because they are very down-to-earth.
    Boy, that doesn't sound like me at all. If I'm with my friends, I love getting them to laugh, and appreciate when they make jokes, including crude humor ... If I don't know the people well, I get downright bored if there's not some lightheartedness and laughter to draw me out of my natural aloofness. And if someone talks about a project, I often eagerly relate by going into Te-spew, offering up semi-related tidbits of data I've absorbed from my lifetime of intellectual dilettante-ism.

    There was a thread not too long ago about Fe polr, where tereg posted examples of crowds of people engaging in communal displays, such as clapping or dancing together, and just watching the youtubes made me squirm. That may be along the lines of what you were getting at with the first sentence quoted above?
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bukowski
    We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.
    SLI

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iAnnAu View Post
    Boy, that doesn't sound like me at all. If I'm with my friends, I love getting them to laugh, and appreciate when they make jokes, including crude humor ... If I don't know the people well, I get downright bored if there's not some lightheartedness and laughter to draw me out of my natural aloofness. And if someone talks about a project, I often eagerly relate by going into Te-spew, offering up semi-related tidbits of data I've absorbed from my lifetime of intellectual dilettante-ism.

    There was a thread not too long ago about Fe polr, where tereg posted examples of crowds of people engaging in communal displays, such as clapping or dancing together, and just watching the youtubes made me squirm. That may be along the lines of what you were getting at with the first sentence quoted above?

    What is your type?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    What is your type?
    ISTp. Some say Si subtype. Some say 5 enneagram.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bukowski
    We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.
    SLI

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Well, I've an ISTp subtype who loves to joke when surrounded by old friends, from time to time. On the other hand, INTps never behave that way.
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    emotional retardation


    it isn't fun


    it makes me weep and kill babies
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    So would that mean you have some kind of mental retardation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    So would that mean you have some kind of mental retardation?
    if i had Fi or Fe polr....sure
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    that made no sense, but that's Ti polr for you

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    that made no sense, but that's Ti polr for you
    It made perfect sense, and I'm heavily offended by it.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

  15. #15
    Creepy-male

    Default Fe and Fi PoLR

    So there is hardly any secret, the most typical interpretations of Fe and Fi PoLR are the following...

    Fi-PoLR, ignorant to the feelings of others - immoral

    Fe-PoLR, ignorant to the mood/atmosphere - boring

    however, I've been recently thinking about this, both function are essentially ethical, and essentially "feeling", one is merely one's feelings towards some object and another one's inner feelings, one is a subjective feeling, the other objective. So essentially they are two aspects to a single whole, that whole being feelings or ethics...

    So I'd think that the above interpretation is incorrect. Fi/Fe-PoLR are weak in terms of all feelings and ethics, because it is a necessary consequence of their strength in thinking.

    The distinction between Fi and Fe being in the super-ego or being part of what is sought by from the dual is merely a dichotomy of preference.

    One form of their weakness is seen by them as threatening and psychologically draining/stressful, another form is seen by them as comfortable and psychologically comforting.

    The way I've come to interpret these are the following...

    Fe-PoLR => Finds feelings out in the atmosphere as uncomfortable, prefers to keep these held inwards, subjective, and personal between people in relationships. Therefore they seem boring possibly, but only in so far as it correlate to their insecurity. Someone way actually find them quite likable/fun to be around after enough energy is invested in a relationship.

    Fi-PoLR => Finds their inner held subjective feelings and their feelings of attachment in relationships to be uncomfortable. Therefore they seem immoral, irreverant, and disrespectful. However when in a particular atmosphere they may seem to open up more and express this inner subjectivity and feelings for relationships more.

    If you read through these you can see the basic principle is that, both are weak in feelings and ethics however they have a preferred "polarity" if you will on how they receive these ethics and feeling inward. One direction leads to insecurity and the other direction leads to comfort. I think this is the key point. If one is comfortable however, there is little need for guard and their source of insecurity goes away. Duality is like making a positive connection in a circuit.

    The energy of a feeler to a thinker can be threatening or comforting depending on what its "polarity" is.

    The Fe energy is comforting to a Fi-PoLR but threatening to a Fe-PoLR
    and vice versa

    However the other observation is between ethical types neither type of feeling energy is threatening to them?

    Why is this not so for the thinker?

    Quite simply because their is a particular quality to their weakness, one is a sort of infantile need for growth in an area and the other a sort of infantile need for security. I use infantile in a non-socionics sense -- in a sense of lacking development/maturity.

    Only through pressure applied to the area of growth (the dual seeking functions) does this add competency in the weak area (feeling in this example) and alleviate insecurities in the other area.

    I'd find it interesting to note the differences of say an ILE interacting with an ESI versus an ILE interacting with an SEI and ESI.

    I'd guess that in the first case their would be superficial interest with both members guards up.

    However in the other case the SEI would act as a sort of intermediary or conduit. Being able to digest what the ESI is saying into a less threatening way, strengthening the bond between the ILE and SEI. However when the ILE responds, this would create tension in the ESI but the SEI would be able to digest its impact through its base functions and relate this to the ESI, although not directly in terms of a dual seeking function, but rather in terms of how the NeTi of the ILE has some impact related to Sensation and Feeling in a way that makes sense to the ESI but may not alleviate their insecurity -- just neutralize any sense of threat. The reverse would be true for the opposite flow, the SEI alleviates the ILE's insecurity as the ESI speaks. A complete loop....

    ILE/LIE interacting with SEI/ESI would work better, but their would be a particular flow of information.... The conflictors would choose to communicate through another person rather than directly, as this would cause increased stress.

    At any small rate this is a short tangent from the base idea of this topic, which is, simply stated.....

    Fe and Fi PoLR do not represent simplistic ideas such as immorality or boringness

    Neither do Fe or Fi egos represent simplistic ideas such as being pious/moral or being fun/enthused

    Ultimately Fe/Fi represent two "orientations" of feeling, much like north/south or up/down, expect in this case these orientations are subjective/objective.

    The Fe/Fi PoLR therefore represent an orientation of vulnerability concerning their weakness

    Whereas Fe/Fi DS represents an orientation of comfort concerning their weakness

    Both elements, the DS and PoLR work together cohesively as a system of weak function with the goal of alleviating anxiety/insecurity by seeking comfort in a preferred orientation.

    Thoughts?

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    Is this Demonstrative ?

    I'll say your presentation is accurate. Though I wonder were people's ideas of and PoLR really limited to:
    Fi-PoLR, ignorant to the feelings of others - immoral

    Fe-PoLR, ignorant to the mood/atmosphere - boring
    and not:
    The Fe/Fi PoLR therefore represent an orientation of vulnerability concerning their weakness
    ?

    Not to criticize but I thought it was already well-known. Perhaps it was just me(I am NT after all), or is there a higher point I'm not noticing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Not to criticize but I thought it was already well-known. Perhaps it was just me(I am NT after all), or is there a higher point I'm not noticing?
    It is, but a lot of people love to make themselves feel better by claiming "everyone [insert idiotic idea about socionics that no one takes seriously here], but it's really [something really obvious]", never realizing they only make themselves look ignorant in the process.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    It is, but a lot of people love to make themselves feel better by claiming "everyone [insert idiotic idea about socionics that no one takes seriously here], but it's really [something really obvious]", never realizing they only make themselves look ignorant in the process.
    Yes you've somehow managed to unveil my secret motivation, please don't tell anyone!

    Besides I'd say the real idiots are the ones who take those idiotic ideas that people say in jest as real food for thought, so really this does serve a purpose to a degree, because it helps distinguish those idiots from the ones who are conscious of the fact their fallacious ideas are being said in jest.

    Also I do not care about making myself look ignorant, I only care about whether I am ignorant or not, after all no one likes someone who is pretentious about their intellect, well maybe some people do, but usually its a clusterfuck of a bunch of phonies attempting to one up each other by sounding more and more intellectual without their being anything really accomplished except satisfying each others egos -- which is fine if that's you thing.
    Last edited by male; 03-27-2011 at 07:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    Not to criticize but I thought it was already well-known. Perhaps it was just me(I am NT after all), or is there a higher point I'm not noticing?
    I would say no, I think you are over focusing perhaps on those two sentences, all the parts in between are really what are valuable in my mind.

    What I think most people think of as PoLR is more like a "bad function" like it was a hand or something they had a birth defect and doesn't function as well.

    What most people I think lack, is this concept of connecting what the PoLR means in relation to the other functions.

    Also people are very keen on pre-digested versions of what a "bad function" means... like I said most people find Fe-PoLR to sound a bit abstract, so they prefer something more concrete like "a boring personality".

    I think this is ultimately flawed, I think its better to view the PoLR as being justxaposed against the dual seeking functions, the PoLR as an aspect of the "weak functions".

    In other words.... Your "weakness" as consisting of super-ego and dual seeking functions.

    Most people overfocus on the PoLR aspect of "weakness" and fail to remember that the dual seeking functions are weak also.

    Really thats sort of what I'm trying to get at, and correct me if I'm wrong but I usually don't hear this discussed.

    I think also
    Quote Originally Posted by sentence
    The Fe/Fi PoLR therefore represent an orientation of vulnerability concerning their weakness
    Is deceptively simple, however really the key word here is "orientation of vulnerability". At first this sentence sounds like I'm saying "A PoLR is a weakness" with fancy language, but I'm really not -- its connected with this idea of orientation.

    Imagine a sheet of paper with a front and back side.... two orientations to its area
    Imagine this sheet of paper representing "feeling"
    One orientation would be Fi --> Subjective Feeling
    One orientation would be Fe --> Objective Feeling

    The relation between these orientations is that one is welcomed and the other is unwelcome and insecure. Although they both are feeling, its as though ones weakness has a "control structure" -- shutting out undesirable forms of that weakness and taking in desirable forms, much like a lock with tumblers.

    I think that is the key.... "orientation of vulnerability" is what I'm getting at... it doesn't mean you simply suck at this function... but its the aspect of your weakness that you block out because it contains your insecurities while the opposite orientation is one you don't block out. It's not merely a weakness but also a preferential orientation... i.e. the "valued and unvalued" aspect of the PoLR.... the aspect most people neglect.

    Some people are dangerously close to considering valued/weak functions, i.e. the dual functions as almost strengths in themselves... for example many people assume if they are beta they are awesome/like Ni,Fe,Se,Ti ... when in reality half of those are weaknesses... they also forgot their unvalued/strong functions. There is an overemphasis on quadra functions and non-quadra functions I see a lot.

    People are acustomed thinking of the PoLR that the people from other quadras hit and what people form their own quadra doesn't hit.

    I could be wrong but I've seen this a lot, and I could provide at least a few skeptics of "concrete" evidence in terms of quotes to bring a certain level of specifivity to my argument.

    Also I'm not attempting to come up with some "groundbreaking" idea -- maybe this is, maybe it isn't, but at least its a discussion and if you already agree then at least we are soldifying our understand as a community or at least having an interesting conversation (if its boring don't waste your time reading it). Second I'm not attempting to target individuals as being incorrect in their understanding -- I'm more concerned with developing a concept than with judging the correctness of other peoples ideas.

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    I don't see Polr's as weakness as much as I see them as necessities to functioning of the Ego functions.

    For example an SLI has Fe-Polr because Fe disturbs his calm and quiet Si, so it's obvious that he doesn't like Fe and cannot handle it very well.

    The SLE wants to be independent and free, strong, this is due to his Se as leading function, so he HAS to be indifferent to feelings of others and insensitive in many instances, otherwise that would threaten his base function and his personality would collapse.

    Same goes for every type. The Polr is a consequence of the leading function.

    Interesting to notice that the Polr is always the very opposite of the creative function, as in Te/Fe, Fe/Te, Ni/Si, always the element in the Jungian dichotomies that the person does not prefer, in the very same intro or extroverted direction as the creative function. So if you would use your Polr well, you would exterminate your Ego functions and collapse.

  21. #21
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    So if you would use your Polr well, you would exterminate your Ego functions and collapse.
    Well I don't find that the true, I'm more inclined to think of it in terms of focus and energy

    If Si really required a lack of Fe to function then what is the deal with SiFe's existing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Air View Post
    Same goes for every type. The Polr is a consequence of the leading function.
    Yeah they're the same thing, asuming you meant Creative.
    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsghost View Post
    A person tries to use their creative function in situations where the polr is more suitable. That's what creates the polr. That's where the backlash onto the polr comes from - using the creative function.
    As far as I know, the two conflicting types of information are two contradictory views, both suitable for the same thing. So what do you mean by "more suitable"? Situations like when you have to eat human flesh, feeling bad about it if you have weak Logic (or maybe Sensing too)? I think this is imposed by the society, the mentality, so basically you deal with conflicting information imposed by people - including yourself - not by the actual situation.

    Here, assuming that extreme scenario is Fi VS Ti, what's more appropriate:
    - Ti because it's consistent with surviving? - basically the fact that the flesh is human means nothing, it's technically just meat;
    - or Fi because it's consistent with our mentality? - it's not just meat, it's human flesh, you can't eat it just like that.
    Shock intuition, diamond logic.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    However in the other case the SEI would act as a sort of intermediary or conduit. Being able to digest what the ESI is saying into a less threatening way, strengthening the bond between the ILE and SEI.

    ESI:ugghugghharbluorganicmblpieafdifjeughughfranca isaughgoodaasurghurghvegetarianuhgawrawr
    ILE to SEI :wat.
    SEI: oh my little hupsybunny!she said she's going to make a pie a la fécale for us! it is a french recipe that uses the feces of exclusively organically nourished cattle.it's a vegetarian recipe! this way you can take in every valuable nutritient that you can find in meat without actually eating meat!
    ILE:i love you.

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    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    ESI = ESE
    SEI = SEE
    ILE = ILI

    /mylife

    It's accurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    ESI = ESE
    SEI = SEE
    ILE = ILI

    /mylife

    It's accurate.
    Ok, I see now. But, how would you explain what goes on with SLI, who get enflamed at some people and start cursing them?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    ESI = ESE
    SEI = SEE
    ILE = ILI

    /mylife

    It's accurate.
    then i guess shitpie=applepie

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    however, I've been recently thinking about this, both function are essentially ethical, and essentially "feeling", one is merely one's feelings towards some object and another one's inner feelings, one is a subjective feeling, the other objective. So essentially they are two aspects to a single whole, that whole being feelings or ethics...

    ...

    Ultimately Fe/Fi represent two "orientations" of feeling, much like north/south or up/down, expect in this case these orientations are subjective/objective.
    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Imagine this sheet of paper representing "feeling"
    One orientation would be Fi --> Subjective Feeling
    One orientation would be Fe --> Objective Feeling
    Wrong, though if you think you're onto something, can you explain the difference? What is this "objective feeling"? What makes Fi subjective, unlike Fe? Where does it refer to the subject when Fe does not? What in the type traits, behavior, descriptions - anything that relates to sociotype personality - makes you conclude this, considering that in Socionics theory it is no such thing?

    In what you wrote I saw Fe being totally subjective, which I actually agree with limiting ourselves to these cases, however you contradict it with calling it "objective". Both moral/immoral and interesting/boring are subjective, as they necessarily involve a subject to exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt View Post
    Wrong, though if you think you're onto something, can you explain the difference? What is this "objective feeling"? What makes Fi subjective, unlike Fe? Where does it refer to the subject when Fe does not? What in the type traits, behavior, descriptions - anything that relates to sociotype personality - makes you conclude this, considering that in Socionics theory it is no such thing?

    In what you wrote I saw Fe being totally subjective, which I actually agree with limiting ourselves to these cases, however you contradict it with calling it "objective". Both moral/immoral and interesting/boring are subjective, as they necessarily involve a subject to exist.
    I didn't pull the subjective/objective thing out of my ass, its referenced in Jung's psychological types, as he explains the nature of introversion/extroversion and the extroverted and introverted forms of functions.

    That I didn't just invent because I felt like it, although Jung did, so I guess you could criticize that.... if you really wanted to

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    I didn't pull the subjective/objective thing out of my ass, its referenced in Jung's psychological types, as he explains the nature of introversion/extroversion and the extroverted and introverted forms of functions.

    That I didn't just invent because I felt like it, although Jung did, so I guess you could criticize that.... if you really wanted to
    He's just going to quote some early socionics text (which had been refuted by mainstream since) which claims Jung was wrong.

    Run while you still can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    He's just going to quote some early socionics text (which had been refuted by mainstream since) which claims Jung was wrong.

    Run while you still can.
    Lol I don't really care, he can argue with a dead man (Jung) all day...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vois View Post
    You have to take into consideration that although there may be an even distribution of sociotypes around the WORLD, that doesn't necessarily mean that there are an even distribution of sociotypes on this FORUM.
    I understand that the forum isn't going to be reflective, but what she has said elsewhere has been applied to the whole world as well (even recently: "It is I who is the rare type. He'll have to search the whole world for another EII), so I wanted to address it here.

    I don't doubt that some EIIs here aren't EIIs though.. and not Se PoLR. It's possible that they are Se role, and IEE (I'm kind of curious if subtypes could affect this too). Or some other type. But just because some EIIs seemed less "Se PoLR" to Maritsa than she is means nothing. I don't even know if she is EII herself, but she has used her own behavior (which is on the extreme end) as a litmus test for everyone else. That needs to be corrected. Typology isn't about behavior... especially one person's.

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