What exactly are PoLR's? (Random notes)

[Jimbean]

Why do we have PoLRs? What exactly are they? (Random notes)

if you were to break down the functions to their essential nature, would it be that S is the body along with the five senses, F with emotions, N.....(?), and T with thought processes? F is emotion, but that does not necessarily imply that ENFp’s or ISFp’s are more emotional than logical types, it is just that F types are more aware of their emotions and therefore have a stronger ability to value (which is what I think Fi and Fe are: the ability to value, and since individual people are the highest value, these types are good with people).

so is that how a function manifests itself? The ability to think (with all things being equal), is the same for ENTp’s and ENFp’s, it is just that Ti is less conscious for the ENFp and therefore less practiced. It is not necessarily that ESTp’s are born to be better athletes than ENTp’s, ESTp’s are more aware of themselves physically, and thus use their bodies and senses more than ENTp’s do. So is that a PoLR, not being aware of a certain aspect of the self? The stronger, ego functions act as a defense mechanism for the less aware Super ego functions, which manifests itself as a weakness? It’s like the super ego keeps the self from being totally free. What keeps people from using thier Role and PoLR?

[Catholic Schoolboy]

I think you answered your own question.

It’s not that people don’t use them it is simply that they are under developed. If you can find a way to develop a function I think that you can use it fluently.

[Cone]

I don't think one should describe the functions in terms of some cognitive ability, but rather in terms of value systems. PoLRs are weak, because the values they represent are the anti-values to your dominant functions.

[ILENTp]

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[Jimbean]

It is the threat of ridicle that prevents us from using our super ego, and since there is a super ego, there is a super id. Since there are functions that do not adhere to reality (the super ego, which is not totally aware and under used), the person in question does not totally adhere to reality:

The purposes of the functions:

T: to identify reality (why else would you think about something?)

S: to percieve reality (you constantly do this, unless you are asleep, maybe)

F: to make decisions based on reality (motivation, value, comes from emotions)

N: (possibly to percieve the abstract aspects of reality)

It is my guess that if I am an ENTp, then by becoming aware of my own emotions as much as my thoughts, then I would develop some Fi and Fe. I would also as a result gain more control over reality.

Any comments?

[ILENTp]

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[Jimbean]

I don't think one should describe the functions in terms of some cognitive ability, but rather in terms of value systems. PoLRs are weak, because the values they represent are the anti-values to your dominant functions.

I do see it that way, however since there are aspects of a person's thoughts (we identify them as fuctions) that produce a particular result, I cannot seperate the "functions" from ability.

[Jimbean]

Intuition seems like a kind of metaperception. Sensing creates "documents" and intiution sorts them into "folders". Sensation "is" the specific, while intuition "is" the general. Intuitives get in trouble when they start seeing everything as "folders", and vice versa for sensors.

Maybe...
I think Intuition is something a little different, yet has a simple explaination.

[Rocky]

Sensing isn't specifics... judging is specifics... perception is generalizations.

Intuition has to do with perceiving things such as time, the future, and realizing possibilities.

Sensing has to do with perceiving space, pressure, and realizing potentials.


There are some other things you could say, but I think that's a good generalization.

[ILENTp]

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[Angel von Himmel]

Sensing isn't specifics... judging is specifics... perception is generalizations.

Intuition has to do with perceiving things such as time, the future, and realizing possibilities.

Sensing has to do with perceiving space, pressure, and realizing potentials.


There are some other things you could say, but I think that's a good generalization.

I disagree somewhat with the generalizations with the above ... I think that all introverted functions have to do with time and quality of the internal world [subtraction and division], and all extroverted functions have to do with quantity and space of the external world[addition and multiplication]. As single functions and irregardless of introversion and extroversion, sensing has to do with experiences and the concrete world, whereas intuition has to do with the abstract theoretical and spiritual world. Thinking just simply involves the mind and feeling involves feelings. It really is not any more complex than that ...

[Rocky]

But it is more complicated than that... much more. These are merely drastic oversimplifications. I think the problem with what you just said right now is that you fail to define "concrete" and "abstract". These can have varying meanings within themselves. I sort of implied that with what I said, but decided to define using more words. "Abstract", in this sense, is refering to things such as the ones I've mentioned; time, future, possibilites, etc... "Concrete" does in fact have to do with the "concrete world"; space, pressure, and realizing (exploring, figuring out, etc..) the potential. But also keep in mind that blocks itself off of "objects", so be careful.


EDIT: also, there are many different traits and peculiarities wihtin each indivudual function, which we haven't discussed, but are clearly defined in Carl Jung's "Psychological Types". In fact, he wrote pages describing each function without really using the words "concrete" or "abstract".

[Angel von Himmel]

But it is more complicated than that... much more. These are merely drastic oversimplifications. I think the problem with what you just said right now is that you fail to define "concrete" and "abstract". These can have varying meanings within themselves. I sort of implied that with what I said, but decided to define using more words. "Abstract", in this sense, is refering to things such as the ones I've mentioned; time, future, possibilites, etc... "Concrete" does in fact have to do with the "concrete world"; space, pressure, and realizing (exploring, figuring out, etc..) the potential. But also keep in mind that blocks itself off of "objects", so be careful.

I am not sure if I agree that they have varying meanings, but I see what you are saying now. However, I do not think that either one of us are wrong in what has been inferred. It is more like I zoom out and you zoom in. There is nothing wrong with that, but I do not think we are saying diffrently even though we might think we are saying diffrently.

I think the statement above has value in that it fits in as a subclass inside of what I have already mentioned; though, it appears to me that introverted and extroverted characterisitcs were lumped together in the the defintition of "abstract" and "concrete" in that statement. I think it should be clarified that there is a subclassified diffrence even though they appear to be lumped into the same class.

[Creepy-pokeball]

It is the threat of ridicle that prevents us from using our super ego, and since there is a super ego, there is a super id. Since there are functions that do not adhere to reality (the super ego, which is not totally aware and under used), the person in question does not totally adhere to reality:

The purposes of the functions:

T: to identify reality (why else would you think about something?)

S: to percieve reality (you constantly do this, unless you are asleep, maybe)

F: to make decisions based on reality (motivation, value, comes from emotions)

N: (possibly to percieve the abstract aspects of reality)

It is my guess that if I am an ENTp, then by becoming aware of my own emotions as much as my thoughts, then I would develop some Fi and Fe. I would also as a result gain more control over reality.

Any comments?

N represents change of reality.

[Rocky]

does, but I don't think does. is also a "change" in reality in someway, I think manipulating reality is an Introverted trait.

has to do more with chasing after endless (sometimes fruitless) possibilities.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I watch my ENFp friends manipulate reality all the time with Ne. Also, watch how they change the time frame of their language structure so that it is non-linear but fits. But I wasnt exactly referring to that. I was actually talking about the want to change. ENFp's are often into social movements and ENTps are often into technological/infostructural movements which can change society as a whole. I can see similar with Ni dominant but in a different way.

It comes down to: I do not like this reality. I see better (or worse, sometimes) options. It's time to change it.

[Jimbean]

N represents change of reality.

yes! That is a big aspect of it, but I think it is concept formation: taking information from concepts instead of directly from perception is using intuition.

@Rocky: That is what I am talking about when I said perceiving reality, but you are right, I am over generalizing

[Creepy-]

I don't think one should describe the functions in terms of some cognitive ability, but rather in terms of value systems. PoLRs are weak, because the values they represent are the anti-values to your dominant functions.

I like the way you think, although I tend to think of the functions in terms of role and sensitivity.