The true origions of the socionic model of the psyche

[Angel von Himmel]

Believe it or not the "socionic model of the psyche" was not something origionally derived by Augustinavichiute. She actually borrowed the idea from a social model devised by Plato 1000s of years ago, combined them with Jung's collective unconscious, functions, and system of typology , and gave them Freudian style names [Ego, Id, Super-Id, Super-Ego].

Plato had done some classifications of the behaviours of people and came up with four classes by which he called "types of souls" (The word 'psyche' actually came from the greek word psuche, which means soul). They are Tyrranical, Tynocratic (or sometimes referred to as Theocratic), Oligarchic, and Democratic. Each one of these types represented a diffrent way that a person would respond and react to society, as follows:

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Tyrranical: People who are tyrranical are prone to falling into old heroic stereotypes, knowing they are able to get what they want and need with little effort. Represents confidence as a positive, arrogance as a negitive. Augustinavichiute called the Tyrranical type the "EGO."

Tynocratic: People who have a need for approval and appeal to authority; lives in a rhelm of superiourity and inferiourity complexes. Augustinavichiute called the Tynocratic type the "Super-EGO."

Oligarchic: People who desire with little to no thought to the consequences of their own actions, greedy, demanding, and disrespectful. Augustinavichiute called the Oligarchic type the "Id."

Democratic: Not to be confused with modern definitions, people who are of this type are wishy-washy ... first knowing what they want, then changing their minds. One day they might want riches, they next day would condemn the wealthy. Another day friendly, unfriendly the next. These types are dynamic and unpredictable, following whatever is suggested from their surroundings and having no solid foundation whatsoever. Augustinavichiute called the Democratic type the "Super-Id."

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So, I suppose if you want to believe that anything is ever new and origional, think again! All concepts come from somewhere, and in this case the socionic model is actual a remix of old Platonian thought and theory mixed with some modern concepts derived from Jung and Freud.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[UDP]

Makes sense. (I guess I was right when I had the "tyrant" definition in the sig.)


Plato was an interesthing character - I always like his idea of "The Sage"...

[UDP]

So, I suppose if you want to believe that anything is ever new and origional, think again! All concepts come from somewhere, and in this case the socionic model is actual a remix of old Platonian thought and theory mixed with some modern concepts derived from Jung and Freud.

Kind of interesting, in terms of the "With Respect" thread, no?

[Angel von Himmel]

So, I suppose if you want to believe that anything is ever new and origional, think again! All concepts come from somewhere, and in this case the socionic model is actual a remix of old Platonian thought and theory mixed with some modern concepts derived from Jung and Freud.

Kind of interesting, in terms of the "With Respect" thread, no?

Yup, that was the point!

[UDP]

...... I don't know if you understand what I meant.


What do you mean "that was the point?"

[Creepy-]

Are these perchance related to the humors?

[Expat]

Could this be right?

Tyrannical: ESTp, ESTj, ENTj

Tynocratic: INTj, ISFj, ISTj, ESFj, ENFj, INFj

Oligarchic: ESFp

Democratic: ISFp, INFp, ENFp, INTp, ENTp, ISTp

[Creepy-]

Maybe ESTp should be in Oligarchic.

[Expat]

Yes I wasn't sure about that. Perhaps there are more complete descriptions of Plato's types.

[Creepy-]

Anyway, I don't think it's meant to be about temperament

[tcaudilllg]

So, I suppose if you want to believe that anything is ever new and origional, think again! All concepts come from somewhere, and in this case the socionic model is actual a remix of old Platonian thought and theory mixed with some modern concepts derived from Jung and Freud.

Thanks for the info.

Sorry to be a Mirror , but I just can't help but feel compelled to add some new insights I've been having over the past few days.

We know that judges think in forms, perceivers in symbols. What do geniuses think in? Archetypes. The molds from which symbols are forged and given identity and form. The primal processes and systems that are completely systematic and applicable to many generalizations.

I think it rather premature to suggest that Plato's influence had substantial bearing on the formation of Socionics. There have been many "typological" classifications of people before... in fact, in my experience everyone has had one. It's not difficult to group people with similar traits into the same category. (not for a judge, at least)

[Angel von Himmel]

Could this be right?

Tyrannical: ESTp, ESTj, ENTj

Tynocratic: INTj, ISFj, ISTj, ESFj, ENFj, INFj

Oligarchic: ESFp

Democratic: ISFp, INFp, ENFp, INTp, ENTp, ISTp

I am currently looking for a source that says this, but I remember reading about the history of socionics somwhere [it might have been a russian site] and I remember it said that Augustinavichute
had heavily researched the theories of Plato, Aristotle, and other Greek classic in order to help form her theories.

Taking that aspect and also from my own research into platonian behavioral models, I have absolutly no doubt in my mind that the Quadras [Alpha,Beta,Gamma,Delta] and also the "socionic model of the psyche" and/or "Model-A" as was deloped along with Medvedev and Leshkevichius is really nearly the same as the platonion behaviour model I have listed above.

So, I guess the old saying "nothing new under the sun" does have some meaning here.

[Expat]

rmcnew,

Do you mean you think that those four types of souls would correspond to the four quadra in socionics? I don't see how that could work at least with base on the descriptions.

[Angel von Himmel]

rmcnew,

Do you mean you think that those four types of souls would correspond to the four quadra in socionics? I don't see how that could work at least with base on the descriptions.

Maybe not exactly, but I know how logical ENTps can be and it would just seem very characterisitic of Augustinavichiute to have a specific type of consistency - 4 blocks in a model, 4 extroverted functions, 4 introverted functions, 4 quadras, etc. I have no doubt in my mind that this was an influential variable in that ...

[Angel von Himmel]

I found a link that describes it in other terms, based on Plato's republic ...

http://www.d.umn.edu/~aroos/republicweb.htm

In a defective *timocratic society, on the other hand, the courageous soldiers have usurped for themselves the privilege of making decisions that properly belongs only to its better-educated rulers. A timocratic person is therefore someone who is more concerned with belligerently defending personal honor than with wisely choosing what is truly best.

In an oligarchic government, both classes of guardian have been pressed into the service of a ruling group comprising a few powerful and wealthy citizens. By analogy, an oligarchic personality is someone whose every thought and action is devoted to the self-indulgent goal of amassing greater wealth.

Even more disastrously, a democratic government holds out the promise of equality for all of its citizens but delivers only the anarchy of an unruly mob, each of whose members is interested only in the pursuit of private interests. The parallel case of a democratic person is someone who is utterly controlled by desires, acknowledging no bounds of taste or virtue in the perpetual effort to achieve the momentary satisfaction that pleasure provides.

Finally, the tyrranic society is one in which a single individual has gained control over the mob, restoring order io place of anarchy, but serving only personal welfare instead of the interests of the whole city. A tyrranic person, then, must be one whose entire life is focussed upon the satisfaction of a single desire at the expense of everything else that truly matters. Governments and people of this last variety are most perfectly unjust, even though they may appear to be well-organized and effective.

*may also be spelled tynocratic

[Creepy-bg]

There are other historic models of humanity which reflect the same concepts. From the bits of research of I've done on this I get the impression that nearly all ancient human cultures developed something along these same lines...

Japanese blood types - O,A,B,AB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_b...of_personality

North, South, East, West (representing the four "tribes" of mankind from many Native American mythos, each tribe reflects quadra values)

Queen, King, Knight, Page - Wands, Cups, Swords, Pentacles (the Tarot "royal" cards, 16 cards (types) in groups of 4)

Fire, Water, Earth, Air (elemental signs of the zodiac)

Another apearance of the concept from the bible is in the four (or is it five?) races of mankind God created after Adam and Eve were cast out... the description of each can be seen to represent quadra attributes.


These are just off the top of my head, there are others I've found. Of course there are discrepencies between the different systems but at their core they all seem to reflect the same basic concepts. Plato's model is merely one the Western forms of a conceptual model that seems to be as old as humanity itself. Which makes sense seeing how psychology requires nothing more than people to observe, which is the one resouce we have had since we decided to stop spending all our time swinging around up in the trees.

[XoX]

Which makes sense seeing how psychology requires nothing more than people to observe, which is the one resouce we have had since we decided to stop spending all our time swinging around up in the trees.

Those were the days...what is it...like 10 years now? Maybe that's just me.

Anyways interesting how "quadras" are represented everywhere. It doesn't really prove anything (other than people are good at copying from each other). But still it gives more hope that socionics is into something. So many people in so different times can't be wrong can they? can they? (yes they can but I'm trying to be positive here , they can also be right)

[flower]

rmcnew:

Just a small point, I understand what you mean about Augustinavichiute simply borrowing a social model devised by Plato and adapting it, but surely every new idea/theory is an adoption, extention, addition to, variation of..... something that already exists.

eg, einstein produced relativity, but this was simply a piece of genius thinking that combined maxwell's equations and already established mathematics, he didnt really come up with anything completely 'new'.

Maxwell used calculus, that was invented by newton, to devise these equations of electricity and magnetism, so again he didnt do anything completely 'new', he just applied already established mathematics in a way not done before.

Newton used the number system, operators like + and - etc to develop calculus, so he didnt come up with anything completely new either.

etc etc, the details of the above are not important, just the idea.

Surely all advances in any field of knowledge are incremental, and use at least some already known ideas/theories and experiments, the actual new input in a 'new' theory is usualy quite small. The line between copying someone else and making an advancement is thin.

My point is that although Augustinavichiute didnt completely invent socionics in its entirety, no-one in any field ever does this, and so she should be given due credit for her work, as it advanced a model of the psych considerably.