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Thread: Prisons don't work to protect us, and they spoil criminals

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    Default Prisons don't work to protect us, and they spoil criminals.

    I'm surprised at the good systems they have in prisons of improving oneself. It seems to have access to these interesting facilities, (where you can truly find yourself in a less judgmental atmosphere) that should be integrated in regular society but somehow they're not. They have a bohemian look to them, and really - guards and people are going to protect you if you're a nice enough guy.

    Listen guys, I'll try not to bring too much of my leftist agenda, but there's a reason why prisons are overfilled with minorities. (Tons of blacks and gays and latinos etc.)

    They are just overcrowded because people too many people in california especially would RATHER be in prison. You can get a job working that is truly institutionalized and protected so you always feel like you're free. In fact, prisons offer ideal love because you can really find out some interesting things about yourself and a subject, because of time and how you're not judged to 'succeed' so much. You can develop an ideal relationship much easier, because of how well they tolerate homosexuality. (There's even 'introductory classes' telling people to just get over their homophobia, it's gonna happen - much like a college course in the real world.) There's no true punishment, only if you're a really complete asshole.

    Prison system it just doesn't work. They're treated like kings. Two wrongs never make a right. I'm all for punishing people that deserve it, but sending them to PRISON is the WORST ABSOLUTE WAY to do it! There's counseling/grief sessions and if you show enough guilt and empathy you can even try to reconnect with the families of the victims you've hurt. It's complete BS! A lot of the wardens are kinda creepy pornaholics themselves that have a secret penchant for bad boys. And a lot of these guys are locked up for stuff they don't even need to be locked up for, and are really sweethearts. I'm serious. I know women who try to date guys in prisons can be pathetic...but oh god you can't really blame them can you?

    You don't lock a man up like he's an animal, you always make him rehabilitate and pay a balance of the destruction he caused to others. You *make* that fucker get a real job in the real world, and support himself- and understand the law better. And if not, if there's no hope in his eyes- which is easy to tell just by looking at him, then you should execute him. It should be that simple. Prison world has developed into its own kind of society, one that is scarily beating the real one we have now.

    These people do not come out of the prison system better when they went into it usually, because prison life is so much easier and appealing to anything they've seen. They can act out brutally, all their graphic porn star fantasies- and be kept safe for it!!! What the fucking hell man, that is a man's dream! I wish people would understand this. In fact these places actually ENCOURAGE crimes.

    Somebody does an err to society, that everybody agrees is wrong- well we just need better systems in place to deal with that, definitely. Who couldn't agree to that?

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    Sure, there's different wards and sections- but you can understand how the game is played all too easily and manipulate the staff there, which is bogus. And there is a LOT of corrupt staff, much more corrupt then a lot of the prisoners there.

    You would be surprised at all the seemingly 'normal' people that commit crimes just to take a break in prison for awhile because people fall so easily for mind games and social manipulation techniques.

    Shiiiiiiiit it should ideally be nothign to be proud of but god fucking damnit, it is rarely the solution to socetial ills!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    Shocking.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Shocking.
    that's funny. i like him.

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    Other than the outdated food and the tents, I didn't see much that bothered me (granted, I only skimmed it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    that's funny. i like him.
    Yeah, I figured you would. I have a problem with people who take pleasure in mistreating others. Inmates should not be fair game for sadistic individuals and apparently it's not deterring crime.

    Arpaio believes that inmates should be treated as harshly as legally possible to emphasize the punishment aspect of their incarceration.

    Arpaio began to serve inmates surplus food including outdated and oxidized green bologna[13] and limited meals to twice daily.

    Smoking and weightlifting equipment were also banned. Entertainment was limited to G-rated movies;

    Tent City: It has become notable particularly because of Phoenix's extreme temperatures. Daytime temperatures inside the tents have been reported as high as 150 degrees in the top bunks.

    During the summer of 2003, when outside temperatures exceeded 110 °F (43 °C), which is higher than average, Arpaio said to complaining inmates, "It's 120 degrees in Iraq and the soldiers are living in tents and they didn't commit any crimes, so shut your mouths."

    In 2005, nearly 700 maximum-security prisoners were marched the four blocks from Towers Jail to the newly opened Lower Buckeye Jail, wearing only their underwear and flip-flops to prevent the concealment of weapons. Prisoners were strip-searched when they left Towers Jail and again when they reached their destination.[29]

    Starting in July 2000, the Maricopa County Sheriff's website hosted Jail Cam, a 24-hour Internet webcast of images from cameras in the Madison Street Jail, a facility which processed and housed only pretrial detainees.

    Arpaio has instructed his sheriff's deputies and members of his civilian posse to arrest illegal immigrants. Arpaio told the Washington Times, "My message is clear: If you come here and I catch you, you're going straight to jail. [...] I'm not going to turn these people over to federal authorities so they can have a free ride back to Mexico. I'll give them a free ride to my jail."

    The family members of inmates who have died in jail custody have filed lawsuits against the sheriff’s office. The lawsuits have cost Maricopa County more than $43 million in settlement claims during Arpaio's tenure.

    From 2004 through November 2007, Arpaio was the target of 2,150 lawsuits in U.S. District Court and hundreds more in Maricopa County courts[45]; 50 times as many prison-conditions lawsuits as the New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston jail systems combined.

    In her book on prison policy The Use of Force by Detention Officers, Arizona State University criminal justice professor Marie L. Griffin reported on a 1998 study commissioned by Arpaio to examine recidivism rates based on conditions of confinement. Comparing recidivism rates under Arpaio to those under his predecessor, the study found "there was no significant difference in recidivism observed between those offenders released in 1989-1990 and those released in 1994-1995."

    Crenshaw's family filed a lawsuit against Arpaio and his office, which resulted in an award of $2 million dollars.[56] As in the Scott Norberg case, it was alleged that Arpaio's office destroyed evidence in the case. In the Crenshaw case, the attorney who represented the case before a jury alleged digital video evidence was destroyed.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    Jesus this guy is nuts.

    I guess I'll refrain from commiting anything whenever I'm in Arizona.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZTCrawcrustle View Post
    Jesus this guy is nuts.

    I guess I'll refrain from commiting anything whenever I'm in Arizona.
    Careful, he might hide those drugs in your car just to put those pink handcuffs on you and watch you run rounds around the tent in pink underwear in 105 degrees before the chain gang sets out for some good old labor. Lovely, isn't it?

    It's totally ludicrous.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Careful, he might hide those drugs in your car just to put those pink handcuffs on you and watch you run rounds around the tent in pink underwear in 105 degrees before the chain gang sets out for some good old labor. Lovely, isn't it?

    It's totally ludicrous.
    lmao...I missed that part
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    I've seen a documentary on this guy (yeah, his fame stretches all the way to the Netherlands). He's nuts and obviously a very unhealthy person and this is his main issue:

    Punitiveness: The belief that people should be harshly punished for making mistakes. Involves the tendency to be angry, intolerant, punitive, and impatient with those people (including oneself) who do not meet one's expectations or standards. Usually includes difficulty forgiving mistakes in oneself or others, because of a reluctance to consider extenuating circumstances, allow for human imperfection, or empathize with feelings.

    (source: www.schematherapy.com)

    This is, btw, the underlying premesis of penal systems in large parts of the world: that people learn from punishment. Which is completely wrong when applied to people who populate prisons, because such people are either insensitive to punishment (e.g. because of hormone levels), or they have become insensitive to punishment because that is how they grew up and they have learned to 'see' it as an integral part of life.

    My personal opinion is that we should stop 'punishing' criminals, because it hardly works. If I had my way, criminals would be put in 'prison' as a measure to protect society, but at the same time given the opportunity to rid themselves of their personality pathologies (if that is the root of their problems), and should not be released until that has been accomplished (so if someone doesn't want to change, they're basically in prison for life, but not with the goal of punishment but to protect society against them).
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I've seen a documentary on this guy (yeah, his fame stretches all the way to the Netherlands). He's nuts and obviously a very unhealthy person and this is his main issue:
    Unhealthy? I like him. I just think he's seen some bad things, been through a lot, etc., and thus has a much lower threshold for 'bullshit'. I guess it doesn't help that he's Ti-ISTj

    Punitiveness: The belief that people should be harshly punished for making mistakes. Involves the tendency to be angry, intolerant, punitive, and impatient with those people (including oneself) who do not meet one's expectations or standards. Usually includes difficulty forgiving mistakes in oneself or others, because of a reluctance to consider extenuating circumstances, allow for human imperfection, or empathize with feelings.
    Funny you think this is a problem. I'm not saying it isn't, when taken to certain levels, but I think it's valid to some degree. I mean, this attitude essentially describes me to a tee, in regards to people and exercise. Am I callous? Yes. But does my attitude get things done? Yes. (note that 'getting things done' doesn't imply growth for everyone; weeding out the weak is part of the process. Efficiency is key.)

    (source: www.schematherapy.com)

    This is, btw, the underlying premesis of penal systems in large parts of the world: that people learn from punishment. Which is completely wrong when applied to people who populate prisons, because such people are either insensitive to punishment (e.g. because of hormone levels), or they have become insensitive to punishment because that is how they grew up and they have learned to 'see' it as an integral part of life.
    Are you sure every criminal is like that? What about bankers who commit fraud, investors who commit embezzlement, etc.? Do you think they're desensitized to punishment? How about the 18-year-old kid who accidentally killed someone while driving drunk, and now has to serve as fresh meat for bubba? I think people learn from punishment to a degree, but past a certain threshold they simply tune it out, accept it as normal, and ultimately forget about the reason why they're being punished. But, I don't see any reason why a good ass-beating ever hurt anyone—especially if it was the consequence of them harming a person. Their mind registers: if I harm this person I will be harmed. Not exactly ideal, since we want people to refrain from assault out of genuine concern, but it is efficient. That being said, I agree with you on a general level, as most real criminals could care less about any "punishment" some pussy guard tries to dish out to them.

    My personal opinion is that we should stop 'punishing' criminals, because it hardly works. If I had my way, criminals would be put in 'prison' as a measure to protect society, but at the same time given the opportunity to rid themselves of their personality pathologies (if that is the root of their problems), and should not be released until that has been accomplished (so if someone doesn't want to change, they're basically in prison for life, but not with the goal of punishment but to protect society against them).
    This makes sense, and I think it is feasible with most cases. If jails facilitated this kind of attitude towards diligent growth and real penitence, with competent staff that actually knew how to read people, we could have some good results. Educational programs, fostering self-awareness, building camaraderie, etc. could all have potential benefits. But there are no guarantees, and a lot of criminals just do not give a fuck. Not to mention the 10-20% population of psychopaths, who essentially cannot ever change, by the sole face that they are devoid of conscience. And a lot of criminals, including this special lot, are smart enough to recognize a loophole when they see one, and act a certain way to benefit; then when they get out they go back to their same behaviors. Is it really worth it to expend the amount of time, energy and money necessary to implement these idealistic aspirations? Can we be reasonably certain that it will have a decent effect? I guess it could be worth a try. But heh, if I know the motherfucker who killed my mom is getting catered to and taught advanced linguistics, I'm not exactly gonna be thrilled. We can't contrive people and society into some proactive playground; sometimes people just need to burn in hell.
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    "It's 120 degrees in Iraq and the soldiers are living in tents and they didn't commit any crimes, so shut your mouths."

    prisowned

    The fact of the matter is, some people are damaged and hopeless, and they just have to be kept out of the public, because they are GOING to hurt people. Does Charles Manson deserve a shot at rehabilitation? HELL no. And there are plenty out there who are as bad or worse. It's total bullshit to pretend like we can just stick people in group therapy and pretend that they will all turn out ok. And, you know, maybe punishment isn't going to "rehabilitate" them, but for one it's what most of them deserve, and for two, it might just make them think twice before holding up a 7 Eleven next time.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Are you sure every criminal is like that? What about bankers who commit fraud, investors who commit embezzlement, etc.?
    Good that you mention this, because these people are indeed flat-out criminals, only the legal system in countries such as the Netherlands and the USA are such that there are serious laws against such forms of crime.

    I remember i particular Cor van der Hoeven, CEO of Ahold, who cried 'crocodile tears' in court, because he felt he was punished enough by the verdict of society at large (which is a typical response of an exposed narcissist). To my amazement the judges accepted this reasoning and he got away with two years probation. If I had my way and appropriate laws on my side, I would have sent him in compulsory therapy the be cured from his narcissistic pathologies, and not be released until he's accomplished that.But we will never have such laws, because a significant part of the 'powers that be' (politicians, business leaders) would be guilty as charged.

    The question is: how is that possible? It's possible because the 'ruling classes' in the western world is made up from the same kind of people that populates the political spectrum and the legal system. To put in in socionic terms: mostly Gammas (note that I'm not saying that all Gammas are like this, only those that are hungry for power and material assets).
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Punitiveness: The belief that people should be harshly punished for making mistakes. Involves the tendency to be angry, intolerant, punitive, and impatient with those people (including oneself) who do not meet one's expectations or standards. Usually includes difficulty forgiving mistakes in oneself or others, because of a reluctance to consider extenuating circumstances, allow for human imperfection, or empathize with feelings.

    (source: www.schematherapy.com)
    So you really think we should waste the time and money to put everyone who walks up to an ATM with someone else's credit card and takes their money through an exhaustive therapeutic process? And you really think that someone who takes another person's life knowingly deserves another shot at the real world after a couple rounds of group hugs, given what they are capable of, without seeing some SERIOUS consequences for their actions? We don't have the resources, and it's just a bad idea, plain and simple.

    Realize that you're quoting from a site that talks about therapy for individuals. Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of treating each and every prisoner like a unique snowflake and helping them to coax out their daddy issues or rape history. If the money was there to get everybody a therapist every time they pull a gun on someone, how many people would commit crimes without fear of punishment in order to get a free consult? The idea is preposterous. Society doesn't have the resources to fix everyone, so we just have to find a way to deal with them.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    So you really think we should waste the time and money to put everyone who walks up to an ATM with someone else's credit card and takes their money through an exhaustive therapeutic process?
    No. an inmates needs to decide for himself if he wants to work on it. If that is the case, than in my country such help is available. But is is impportant that they themselves take the first steps. I think such a system is ony humane. Wasn't it you who said that these problems are the result from social dynamics? If you look at most inmates, only a very few of them are evil by nature, but most of them suffer from personality pathologies. I feel such people deserve a seccond change by allowing them the opportunity of reparenting. Many however, will keep seeing themselves as victims, and not choose that option. In which case they will not change their ways either, and we keep them behind lock and key. The essence is, that imho, this is more humane towards the inmates, but also better for society. That ATM skimmer you are talking about, is now given, what, 4 months to two years in prison? When they get out, they typically go wrong again, because prison was only about 'punishment', not about setting someone straight.

    ETA: as far as the costs are concerned, it is possible that the system I propose is not affordable (both financially and practically). But that doesn't make penal system the right system. It does not accomplish what it says it tries to accomplish. Criminal often leave it more criminal than they came in.
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I'm surprised at the good systems they have in prisons of improving oneself. It seems to have access to these interesting facilities, (where you can truly find yourself in a less judgmental atmosphere) that should be integrated in regular society but somehow they're not.
    When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. (Meaning you don't need some special external facilities or systems to find spiritual awareness and inner peace.)

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