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Thread: Obama, the Democrats and the Left

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    Default Obama, the Democrats and the Left

    I see all kinds of complaints coming from the Left all over the world: they complain about a candidate (now a president) who pretends to be a Socialist but is not. Who pretends to be a representative of the Left while he's, at the same time, dealing with the forces of the Right.

    Why?

    Well, in my opinion, it is wrong to call Obama a Socialist and a member of the Left in the first place. The reason? Because Socialism (as we know it) and the concept of "Left" are mostly Alpha in nature. You can see the typical representatives of that current being Alpha, say, Voltaire, but up to modern examples like Bill Clinton and Al Gore.

    However, Obama is Delta. And Deltas tend to float somewhere between the formal definitions of the political wings. Some Deltas are known for their Right wing affinity (usually STs) while others have more affinity for the Left (usually NFs).

    So, is it a bit too constraining to have a two sided game when there are actually four forces playing? What kind of politics do really Deltas promote?
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    He's Delta? I thought everyone agreed that he was ENFj.

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    IEE. I don't think he values Fe at all.
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    Braintypes has him as ENTP.

    Topaz
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    He is an ENFj.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
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    2)
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    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    I don't see ENFj or ENTp at all. I think he's most likely INFp and if not that, then ENFp. Definitely an NFP.

    He also makes a lot of the same expressions as my Ni subtype INFp male friend. And people say they resemble each other (even though he doesn't physically look like him).

    Then again, my very first impression of him was that he reminded me of an ENFp male ex (Ne subtype)

    His speeches are full of the idealist phrases, but he doesn't act at all like an ENFj. There is no jumpy emotion, or intense energy. He is very steady, calm -- like an (N subtype) ENFp or INFp.

    I have wondered what type Michelle Obama is. My guess was ESTj. She's very straightforward and social too.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    I'm apparently full of bullshit today, but my perceptions:

    Alpha: Liberal
    Beta: Libertarian
    Gamma: Conservative
    Delta: Diplomatic. All of the above, none of the above. And everything inbetween. I agree, I think Delta politics are hard to figure out. I think this ironically somehow makes them understand society/cultures the best, so they make the best egalitarian leaders. You can't really type Delta politics, so that's why I think they work the best overall.

    I'm pretty much very comfortable with any Delta being in high office. As long as I don't have to work directly for them lol. In fact, I'd probably be much more suspicious if somebody in my own quadra was in political power. But they wouldn't anyway, as our views are kind of the absence of needing government to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I'm apparently full of bullshit today, but my perceptions:

    Alpha: Liberal
    Beta: Libertarian
    Gamma: Conservative
    Delta: Diplomatic. All of the above, none of the above. And everything inbetween. I agree, I think Delta politics are hard to figure out. I think this ironically somehow makes them understand society/cultures the best, so they make the best egalitarian leaders. You can't really type Delta politics, so that's why I think they work the best overall.

    I'm pretty much very comfortable with any Delta being in high office. As long as I don't have to work directly for them lol. In fact, I'd probably be much more suspicious if somebody in my own quadra was in political power. But they wouldn't anyway, as our views are kind of the absence of needing government to me.
    Typing goverments by quadra can be a vague business full of errors. Look at an office for instance on the small scale, and the difference of an ESTj being the manager in comparison to an ISTp. Look at the difference in Obama and Hilter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I'm apparently full of bullshit today, but my perceptions:

    Beta: Libertarian

    In fact, I'd probably be much more suspicious if somebody in my own quadra was in political power. But they wouldn't anyway, as our views are kind of the absence of needing government to me.
    I guess there may be no 'objective' answers or opinions on the matter, but I'm not really seeing this at all.

    I don't think libertarianism is inherently closest to beta nor that betas are more likely to be attracted to libertarian philosophy. Most betas I've known have had little, if any, issue with the size and scope of government or the power of politicians to influence their lives. In fact, most, if not all, of them generally have faith in the ability of government to benefit well-being of the populace, so long as it's done under an ideology they agree with and think is best.

    While betas might experience problems with hierarchy on a small scale where someone else is likely to make arbitrary rules that directly (and needlessly) govern the betas' personal lives (such as hierarchies at home and work), I tend to think that on a larger social scale, betas are likely to be the one's doing the bulk of the 'social organizing' and promoting themselves as worthy 'leaders.'

    As for Obama, the man reeks of beta NF to me. His hopelessly idealistic language of "We will change this country, we will change the world" and that his election meant that "Americans sent a message that we have never been just a collection of individuals" (emphasizing the collective as being of greater importance than the individual) have not changed my opinion.

    I also agree with hellothere that just because Obama is not foaming at the mouth and is able to maintain posture and 'calmness' doesn't mean he isn't beta or EIE.
    Last edited by duality is cringe; 11-09-2008 at 10:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I see all kinds of complaints coming from the Left all over the world: they complain about a candidate (now a president) who pretends to be a Socialist but is not. Who pretends to be a representative of the Left while he's, at the same time, dealing with the forces of the Right.

    Why?

    Well, in my opinion, it is wrong to call Obama a Socialist and a member of the Left in the first place. The reason? Because Socialism (as we know it) and the concept of "Left" are mostly Alpha in nature. You can see the typical representatives of that current being Alpha, say, Voltaire, but up to modern examples like Bill Clinton and Al Gore.

    However, Obama is Delta. And Deltas tend to float somewhere between the formal definitions of the political wings. Some Deltas are known for their Right wing affinity (usually STs) while others have more affinity for the Left (usually NFs).

    So, is it a bit too constraining to have a two sided game when there are actually four forces playing? What kind of politics do really Deltas promote?
    I find this whole approach to be horrendously off base. Quadra values and political values certainly have relationships, but not at such a simplistic level. I'm decidedly Alpha and I am anything but a socialist. Any type can hold any variety of political positions. The type is much more likely to tell you how they come to their conclusions and how they behave politically than it is to tell you what someone believes.

    Deltas, like members of every quadra, promote a variety of different political views. The thing that makes the views Delta is much more subtle than whether they tend to be liberal or conservative, even if those designations had more well-defined meanings.

    JRiddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    I find this whole approach to be horrendously off base. Quadra values and political values certainly have relationships, but not at such a simplistic level. I'm decidedly Alpha and I am anything but a socialist. Any type can hold any variety of political positions. The type is much more likely to tell you how they come to their conclusions and how they behave politically than it is to tell you what someone believes.

    Deltas, like members of every quadra, promote a variety of different political views. The thing that makes the views Delta is much more subtle than whether they tend to be liberal or conservative, even if those designations had more well-defined meanings.
    Yeah, because socionics itself is not limited to quadras, but temperaments, clubs, etc. However, I'm choosing to restrict my observation to quadra values only.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Yeah, because socionics itself is not limited to quadras, but temperaments, clubs, etc. However, I'm choosing to restrict my observation to quadra values only.
    Socionics doesn't explain everything about someone's behavior or opinions. There are just too many variables for a (fairly simple) reductionistic model to take into account. This is not saying that Socionics is bad, but merely that there limits to what I can and can't speak on.

    Additionally, there are many ways in which I could argue that Socionics itself would lean against socialism being an Alpha-oriented view. The most important of these is that Alphas are democratic. Whatever theoretical explanation you might give for this, it is an observable trait of Alphas and Gammas that they tend to dislike the power structures that come with most forms of social government. Now, if you suggest that some of the social ideas of leftism and socialism are rooted in alpha, that may be more or less true. Egalitarianism and such ideas seem pretty matter-of-course to me, in that I think that way without thinking about it. However, the leftism that we see in the US today has support and opposition from members of all quadras, for a variety of reasons. To say that someone cannot really be socialist without being Alpha would be a narrow characterization that reifies socionic models to a much more quantifiable level than experience leads me to believe is practicable.

    I think the better question to ask would be to look at what members of certain quadras believe, and attempt to find out why they ascribe to that ideology, and how they go about supporting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    There are just too many variables for a (fairly simple) reductionistic model to take into account.
    Well, the notions of "Left" and "Right" are also very vague. I don't really see the fault about comparing two systems with about the same level of vagueness.

    I support your proposal about describing natural political tendencies for each type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Well, the notions of "Left" and "Right" are also very vague. I don't really see the fault about comparing two systems with about the same level of vagueness.

    I support your proposal about describing natural political tendencies for each type.
    Good point. Even two dimensional models, that compare preference for levels government involvement in the economy and society fall short of categorizing beliefs very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Well, the notions of "Left" and "Right" are also very vague. I don't really see the fault about comparing two systems with about the same level of vagueness.

    I support your proposal about describing natural political tendencies for each type.
    I don't know if I agree with this, as stated.
    Politically, Left is liberal/progressive, and Right is conservative. They're meant to be polar opposites.
    The way politics plays out in the US makes the Democrats and the Republicans often pander to the middle of the spectrum because most individuals aren't extremists. This makes the parties seem practically interchangeable to me.
    However, the ideology of the left is a far cry from the ideology of the right. While I do agree that it's a limited way to categorize beliefs, until we change the system it's what we got to work with.
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