which is the worse : childlike & victim or victim & caring?

[pianosinger]

I was just thinking about something similar yesterday. My husband and I are victim and infantile.

I think it works okay in our situation. I am Role Se and he is Role Si, so we are at least able to partially provide what the other most needs romantically.

That is, I imagine it would be worse if I were married to, say, and ENTj or ENFj, who would have Si as their Vulnerable function. Role Si may not be as easy on my DH as Base Si is for my Dual, but if it were his Vulnerable function, we'd be in a lot more trouble romantically.

And if my husband were married to an INFj or INTj, it would be worse for him, romantically speaking, than if he were married to an ENFp (like me) or an ENTp.

So in the case of Victim/Caregiver, I imagine it would be something similar...

[mu4]

lol, as a side note, he was ILE.

As a side note, she was IEI. But now that I've grown older and know how to act, I don't think I would go for a IEI again.

Enough alcohol/etc can get me pretty aggressive but overall I tend to be overly cautious initially.

[pianosinger]

lol, as a side note, he was ILE.

An example of how it would work out differently with an aggressor:

Aggressor: *stops conversation, smiles & moves in close* I like your lips...
Victim: Thank you... *steps back*
Aggressor: *pulls victim close & starts kissing her*
Victim:

They never ask for approval.


Anyone have an example of how a situation like that would pan out with say, Infantile - Aggressor or Infantile - Caregiver?

idk, but for me and my husband that scene would go something like...

Victim: I like your lips...
Infantile: *chuckles* you're so cute...
Victim: No, I'm serious. They're like strawberries...
Infantile: *rolls eyes internally, smiles and preps for makeout*
Infantile: [periodically between kisses] umm, I think I should take off my glasses...are you comfortable like this?...maybe we should try it this way...hehe, you're scruffy...so, how was your day today?

[crazedrat]

It depends more on the specific types involved than the erotic attitudes.

[redbaron]

It depends more on the specific types involved than the erotic attitudes.

probably right.

With the one exception of my first kiss at the age of 14, I never liked it when a guy would ask permission to kiss me. I feel like that's so lame. The first guy, we were so young and he wanted to be sure of my feelings and it was very sweet.

Someone asking if they can touch me is just... gross. Look, either do it or don't do it. SLEs can tell if you're open to that sort of thing anyway. They notice everything about body language and position and stuff. It kind of makes up for the fact that they might not know exactly how you feel about them. Your feelings tend to project themselves onto the way you carry yourself and come across, and those are the signals SLEs use. Which in any case are probably pretty darned accurate.

Okay so with IEI/ESE, it would go like this:

Caregiver: kisses, then says "How's that?"
Victim: "Um, good..."
Caregiver: "Are you hungry? Do you want more?" (kisses, not food, lol)
Victim: LOL *mood ruined by all these questions!!*

I don't see why conversation is even needed in this situation. And certainly not questions.

[07490]

Lol you keep your mouth shut in those situation, thats how it is for / romance. So more room for the physical!

[redbaron]

Lol you keep your mouth shut in those situation, thats how it is for / romance. So more room for the physical!

good to see you, numbers!

[glam]

haha, this reminds me of what Reinin wrote about Ne-Si valuers (Reasonable/Judicious) vs Se-Ni valuers (Resolute)

The reasonable – the resolute.

The reasonable ones consider the potential opportunities, in their relationships they are giving, they want to please and be interesting (sexually also). The resolute are mostly focused on the immediate experience of a relationship, and the pleasure that he/she is getting. This distinction is true in the intimate sphere also. The two types may also be named the givers and the takers.

It is also possible to say that the attribute divides the types according to their understanding of the integrity of situation. In one case it is the integrity of the external situation (to give pleasure to the partner), in the other case it is the integrity of the internal situation (to get pleasure in the process).

[07490]

good to see you, numbers!

Red-Baron! how nice of you!

[jughead]

I could see that. I think that at the current moment, my "caregiver" ESE is upset with me for not appreciating all these things he does for me, when I don't really want him doing these things at all. I feel like he does them because he wants them done himself. (like the laundry or cleaning up the kitchen) and then expects me to be jumping for joy since he's doing all this work. I'm constantly telling him to relax, stop doing all this stuff but he won't listen. It's getting old.

Fuck yeah.

[Satan]

My experiences:

Infantile: Can I ask you a question?
Victim: Yes?
Infantile: Can I touch you? Just for a while?
Victim: ...........


Needless to say, I much prefer the aggressors approach, by far. Infantile was just frustrating, and weird.

hahaha...

can i ask you a question is such a good way to get someone paranoid...

[Beautiful sky]

lol, as a side note, he was ILE.

An example of how it would work out differently with an aggressor:

Aggressor: *stops conversation, smiles & moves in close* I like your lips...
Victim: Thank you... *steps back*
Aggressor: *pulls victim close & starts kissing her*
Victim:

They never ask for approval.


Anyone have an example of how a situation like that would pan out with say, Infantile - Aggressor or Infantile - Caregiver?

But, LSE don't either.

[jessica129]

Asking anything during sex is just odd. Can I put this there? Well if she's naked, that's usually a good indication she wants you to

[FDG]

lol, as a side note, he was ILE.

An example of how it would work out differently with an aggressor:

Aggressor: *stops conversation, smiles & moves in close* I like your lips...
Victim: Thank you... *steps back*
Aggressor: *pulls victim close & starts kissing her*
Victim:

They never ask for approval.

I do this too, but never at the very start of a relationship. I need to be sure that they like it (which, ironically, somehow fits with victim, since I'm giving the other party priority in preferences towards the physical realm).

[redbaron]

In the beginning I'm always unsure about how I particularly feel about a person, until they do something that makes me conform my thoughts... it's weird. After I feel confident in the way I personally feel about someone (and the way they feel about me) I become very openly affectionate.

same.

[Blaze]

who wants to talk anyway. bring the beef. now.

[redbaron]

who wants to talk anyway. bring the beef. now.

LOL

[blackburry]

My experiences:

Infantile: Can I ask you a question?
Victim: Yes?
Infantile: Can I touch you? Just for a while?
Victim: ...........


Needless to say, I much prefer the aggressors approach, by far. Infantile was just frustrating, and weird.

lol...uhh, that kind of interaction has always made me cringe.

[stray]

lol...uhh, that kind of interaction has always made me cringe.

Heh. It makes me cringe as well (infantile here btw). There's little give and take with victims though, so they make me cringe sometimes too. Kind of a stalemate there. They expect me to break my own.. say, misgivings about aggression, yet rarely do it themselves either. It's kind of hypocritical in a way.. to value aggression, but to be too much of a wuss to embody a little of it on their own.

That said, I'd like to block it out of my mind that this stuff is socionics/type related. Can't there be some halfway point for each person? People on these extreme ends have always seemed kind of immature, in my experience.

[redbaron]

Heh. It makes me cringe as well (infantile here btw). There's little give and take with victims though, so they make me cringe sometimes too. Kind of a stalemate there. They expect me to break my own.. say, misgivings about aggression, yet rarely do it themselves either. It's kind of hypocritical in a way.. to value aggression, but to be too much of a wuss to embody a little of it on their own.

yes. I've felt guilty about it before too, with the caregiver. Cause I'm AWARE that I'm being that way but it's just... the way I am. With Se egos it's nice cause you can be yourself and it's appreciated! PLUS sometimes it rubs off & you can stop being such a wuss and take turns being aggressive. But I could never be aggressive with the ESE, for instance. I'm not sure why but it's impossible. (reasons are probably partly not type related)

[stray]

yes. I've felt guilty about it before too, with the caregiver. Cause I'm AWARE that I'm being that way but it's just... the way I am. With Se egos it's nice cause you can be yourself and it's appreciated! PLUS sometimes it rubs off & you can stop being such a wuss and take turns being aggressive. But I could never be aggressive with the ESE, for instance. I'm not sure why but it's impossible. (reasons are probably partly not type related)

Well, I can understand that. Some people throw you off a bit.

Generally speaking, and not to be too sexist or anything, but I wonder if there's just more pressure, as a guy, to get out of my comfort zone more (in terms of aggression). It's not my preference, but if I play that Joe Esposito song from Karate Kid in my head, anything is possible (Told ya I was infantile. ).

[Korpsy Knievel]

Would you rather a guy asked permission to touch you or say "Thanks!" after sex?

[Ashtonette]

Would you rather a guy asked permission to touch you or say "Thanks!" after sex?

Either of these would make an excellent joke.

If it's for realz? The asking-permission thing guarantees the sex will be bad, so there will be no sex. The saying-thanks-after thing means that I've already had sex; if it was good, I don't much give a shit what the guy says. If it was bad and he says "Thanks," I'll probably scream at him.

[redbaron]

"Ashtonette" LOL

[mu4]

Meged/Ovcharov

The logical subtype tries to project the impression of a serious person. Can be sharp and, from time to time, even inconsiderate. They are self-assured and speak quickly, usually with a categorical tone. Are unduly categorical in their judgments and tend to impose their opinion on others. Sometimes appears energetic and self-confident; are impatient and cannot always wait for a speaker to finish before interrupting. Often take great new interests and try to find these a practical embodiment; will actively and vigorously defend their interests but after they flare up and offend someone they will consciously make note and try to correct their position. Very ambitious and prone to take offense to mere trifles, however, after a while will again return to an affable and benevolent state. Behaviors are unpredictable and full of contrast. Appear tenacious, gait and gestures seem confident but are poorly coordinated. Pose without restraint, capable of quickly closing a distance, may embrace or kiss the interlocutor.

Sexual behavior

Are somewhat distrustful of feelings, they will only show their own slowly and with time. When they are confident in love are initiative taking, affectionate, and take care to satisfy their partner; always improving sexual techniques. They need a decisive, emotional and sexual partner, capable of quickly convincing them of their feelings and providing reciprocity. It is necessary to make use of constant emotional stimuli: joke, coquetry, jealousy.

This is the part that most victims have a hard time doing, I have found EIE can fool me here, but eventually I feel EIE are either disingenuous or smothering, and I get pissed. It works with aggressors I think because for them it eggs them on.

I can be more like this when intoxicated, but usually making relationship and emotional decisions while intoxicated is very bad.

[redbaron]

usually making relationship and emotional decisions while intoxicated is very bad.

lol, you think?

[mu4]

lol, you think?

That's just how we roll!

[silke]

Heh. It makes me cringe as well (infantile here btw). There's little give and take with victims though, so they make me cringe sometimes too. Kind of a stalemate there. They expect me to break my own.. say, misgivings about aggression, yet rarely do it themselves either. It's kind of hypocritical in a way.. to value aggression, but to be too much of a wuss to embody a little of it on their own.

That said, I'd like to block it out of my mind that this stuff is socionics/type related. Can't there be some halfway point for each person? People on these extreme ends have always seemed kind of immature, in my experience.

yeah I was wondering how the infantile-victim interaction is from the infantile point of view - in description is says that victims confuse infantiles, is this generally true?

[Korpsy Knievel]

Which would you prefer?

I've always refused the former. The latter I once said facetiously to tweak the nose of a girlfriend who'd spent the day testing my patience with whiny demands before trying to pay me off with a quickie and shoo me out the door. It seemed a slightly safer insult than the first question that came to mind, which was to ask if she could break a $5.

[ashlesha]

yeah I was wondering how the infantile-victim interaction is from the infantile point of view - in description is says that victims confuse infantiles, is this generally true?

yes.

[EyeSeeCold]

yes.

Do victims confuse infantiles or are infantiles already confused?

[ashlesha]

cute.

[stray]

Do victims confuse infantiles or are infantiles already confused?

Hmm.. my mind is pretty made up on how far I would take anything resembling an aggressor approach. I'm not confused on who I am. The only thing that confuses me about some victim types (or what seemed like it) is their demand for the aggressor approach, and then often not doing any of that themselves. Not even meeting halfway. Just not responsive unless you're up in their face in one way or another. If I like a person enough, I'll make some effort, but I find that they expect so much.. to basically be smothered. That kicks me out of my own comfort factor - and yeah, it screws with my head. Asking me to break various ethical boundaries I've set for myself just so someone can know I'm interested in them. Forget about it.

[EyeSeeCold]

Hmm.. my mind is pretty made up on how far I would take anything resembling an aggressor approach. I'm not confused on who I am. The only thing that confuses me about some victim types (or what seemed like it) is their demand for the aggressor approach, and then often not doing any of that themselves. Not even meeting halfway. Just not responsive unless you're up in their face in one way or another. If I like a person enough, I'll make some effort, but I find that they expect so much.. to basically be smothered. That kicks me out of my own comfort factor - and yeah, it screws with my head. Asking me to break various ethical boundaries I've set for myself just so someone can know I'm interested in them. Forget about it.

? I don't want to be smothered lol.

The thing about Ne/Si is that there is this physical kind of codependency. Ni/Se don't have that, so we(Victims) aren't begging for your attention, even if we want it. We'll just wait til you're ready and come to us.

I'm well aware of territorial boundaries, so with the addition to the above, I really don't like intruding on personal spaces. Always doubting.

[stray]

? I don't want to be smothered lol.

Alright, I believe you. I need to reassess this.

It's even funnier looking at the Architect in your avatar.

[Creepy-female]

My experiences:

Infantile: Can I ask you a question?
Victim: Yes?
Infantile: Can I touch you? Just for a while?
Victim: ...........


Needless to say, I much prefer the aggressors approach, by far. Infantile was just frustrating, and weird.

lol, as a side note, he was ILE.

An example of how it would work out differently with an aggressor:

Aggressor: *stops conversation, smiles & moves in close* I like your lips...
Victim: Thank you... *steps back*
Aggressor: *pulls victim close & starts kissing her*
Victim:

They never ask for approval.


Anyone have an example of how a situation like that would pan out with say, Infantile - Aggressor or Infantile - Caregiver?

Hm well honestly someone asking permission sounds kinda cute. It's like respectful. Having a kiss sprung on you can be stressful, it's like you don't own your body and you aren't really under your own skin. It's sort of a boundary thing. The person asking you, giving you a choice, making sure you want it? That sounds pretty okay to me.

[redbaron]

Hm well honestly someone asking permission sounds kinda cute. It's like respectful. Having a kiss sprung on you can be stressful, it's like you don't own your body and you aren't really under your own skin. It's sort of a boundary thing. The person asking you, giving you a choice, making sure you want it? That sounds pretty okay to me.

Honestly, I thought it was VERY cute in the case of my first kiss with an ESI. But now? It seems childish and a little overly sensitive (to me anyway). I mean, I'm not gonna put myself in a position where I can even BE kissed if I don't wanna be kissed. Hopefully the person I was with would be intelligent enough to pick up on that!!

[ashlesha]

Honestly, I thought it was VERY cute in the case of my first kiss with an ESI. But now? It seems childish and a little overly sensitive (to me anyway). I mean, I'm not gonna put myself in a position where I can even BE kissed if I don't wanna be kissed. Hopefully the person I was with would be intelligent enough to pick up on that!!

can't you be kissed in any position/situation? lol. i guess this could be like an Ne versus Ni thing. Ne - any moment is ripe with opportunity for kissing, Ni - the timing must be right. haha.

i dont remember ever being asked. i think it might be a bit awkward but would also strike me as cute/respectful. it would be far better than having a kiss sprung on me that i didn't want.

[redbaron]

can't you be kissed in any position/situation? lol. i guess this could be like an Ne versus Ni thing. Ne - any moment is ripe with opportunity for kissing, Ni - the timing must be right. haha.

i dont remember ever being asked. i think it might be a bit awkward but would also strike me as cute/respectful. it would be far better than having a kiss sprung on me that i didn't want.

that's for sure. but I've never had that happen (thank goodness). if you were the one doing the kissing, I'd think that you would read the other person's body language to assess the situation before moving forward. The timing must be right, yes!! But, I mean, this sort of thing happens naturally and in a split second.

[Creepy-female]

Honestly, I thought it was VERY cute in the case of my first kiss with an ESI. But now? It seems childish and a little overly sensitive (to me anyway). I mean, I'm not gonna put myself in a position where I can even BE kissed if I don't wanna be kissed. Hopefully the person I was with would be intelligent enough to pick up on that!!

Haha, I'm not that experienced anyway, but I'm thinking of times where my body language was pretty closed up and well, scared. I was scared out of my gourd. lol. And I had to spend a lot of time figuring out how to say no because I was afraid of hurting their feelings, and I didn't know how kissing was supposed to feel. Most of it's been pretty excruciating.