it's true. you guys should meet someday.Originally Posted by cracka
Not only ESE... but the closest person in the entire world to cracka he's ever heard of.
childlike & victim is worse
victim & caring is worse
they're equally bad
it's true. you guys should meet someday.Not only ESE... but the closest person in the entire world to cracka he's ever heard of.
IEI-Fe 4w3
I noticed something, merc. You're always saying "this reminds me of this..." and then "that reminded me of something else..." I think you must be an intuitive of some sort. You're always making connections.y'know what this reminds me of,
is that i used to say that people should "take advantage" and that it "discourages" help by being "thankful", and that you should just act as if it's no big deal, and just be "easy" about if you want to be helped.
the more you "worry", or are unsure over whether you want to be helped or not, the more that other people should be cautious about helping you.
like - when i helped someone and someone was thankful, i'd say don't be thankful, it's no big deal, etc .. and it's like i had the way of seeing it that by helping others you're really helping yourself .. and if you're not then you'll want "gratification"
anyway, the turn side of this is that when i disappeared, sometimes people would be kind of like telling me about the problems that they experienced in by absence, rather than saying that they missed me or anything
so then i was thinking about people i've known, who have said things like "everyone wants me to do this (something else), but i'm going to do this .. " and i'd start to think about how much they considered what other people wanted. and that i think people should consider what they want, and how to make it happen rather than putting the onus on someone else.
and yet, i'd precisely try to get the onus of other people to be put on me, so that *i* would gain a feeling of control, and flexibility..
IEI-Fe 4w3
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oh, okay.
IEI-Fe 4w3
There is a point there, about me always being reminded of things ...I noticed something, merc. You're always saying "this reminds me of this..." and then "that reminded me of something else..." I think you must be an intuitive of some sort. You're always making connections.
I find that sometimes there's kind of a "delayed response", and then I can get kind of flooded with things coming up from the past.
It's like for instance, if I see a girl again, who I haven't seen in ages, who I had a good connection with - I'm not going to immediately have associations on hand probably - but then they can start "associating" and it's like it can all come back to me now.
Also, sometimes people get "wise" to my associating, and they try and sway me before I get too far down an association line - because I can kind of stick to one association line or something - and then everything else kind of disappears.
Lah lah. And then for example whilst I'm wirting this, it came back to me about how this girl reminded me of this other girl, who pissed off lots of people, who had a specific behavioural pattern, that someone else got pissed off about, which is a behaviour pattern that isn't *that* common amongst people I know, except a few who formed this nice little category. Then I was wondering if she was ignoring me, and had a gripe with me. So I figured that she never approaches me, and so if she has a problem then it's not my responsibility. And in time if it is about me, she'll get over it. And I should keep my behaviour static. But then I was wondering if it's because all my behaviour with her is pretty static, and she has low influence. Maybe it's about something else completely.
See! I shouldn't have started down that path.
Anyway, with some things I can just spin - like if someone doesn't know what they want to eat - then I can just rattle off a whole lot of "associations", and then they can be like "go back". Yeah, that seems good.
So like when people are really rigid, and don't have any ideas, are dead inside, or whatever. Then I can kind of have ideas, and not be dead inside.
That said with food I'm really boring, and I like to eat the same things frequently.
Actually, I wonder if that's Ne.
Also with people I remember quite a few associations, but I associate with other people too. Although I know with some people you have to be careful, because if you keep associating them to other people, they'll get pissed off at their lack of individuality, even though they're acting just like other people!
Like sometimes for instance - say you're standing outside, having a cigarette - and one guy comes up to you for a lighter. And then another guy, and then a girl or something.
And it's like it turns into nothing special.
It's kind of funny, because can behave so similarly to each other. I suppose that's why I find it amusing when people do things differently. Like I've met some girls who will offer their left hand to "shake hands". Or they'll otherwise act quite bizzarely. And it makes you notice them more.
For some reason guys don't tend to act bizzarely as often though. But will still somehow seem to be able to come across as "different" in a funny amusing way.
Sometimes I find people can accuse me of "always being the same" or being "boring", but my creative mind likes to slip in things like, this cure song fragment:
"It's always the same, wake up in the rain
Head in pain, hung in shame
A different name, same old game, love in vain
And miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles away from home again..."
It's like I often have experiences coming back to me. Sometimes it seems like everything is just going over and over and I need to break free, and it's like I have to stick things up a notch to try and break free.
Thing is, I learnt when I was younger, that if I keep going up a notch, as can happen in a pattern, then it's like people around me can seem to freeze or kind of look around them for something else to do.
And then I used to get accused of "holding people back" like, I was blocking them from action, and so forth. Because sometimes everyone wolud freeze as soon as I came into a situation, and then they'd often be kind of "discounted", and then I'd try to "raise" the situation on my own.
And yet I've also been given "helpful" input before about "leaving things alone", and seeing how they go. And I had this notion that if I let things go then things would go badly. .. but really, it just meant that the atmosphere was "lighter" and things tended to go into order again.
Anyway, I'm heavily into oscillations. Close/distance, friend/enemy, truth/lies, etc.. And it's like soem people get it wrong, and think there's closeness when there's distance, that they're a friend, when they're an enemy. etc etc . .
And because my pace can be reasonably high, it can make some people feel a bit jostled, like they're being thrown around in a storm or something. But with other people, it's like they can be really truthful/open/honest, and kind of flood things into me, andi can flood things into them. And it's like when that's happening, streams of associations can build.
And it's like this kind of pressured/intense communication style can be used, where a lot of information is conveyed in a short space of time. And it's like to do that there has to be really be one-on-one communication, matching with the others pace etc. So that they can kind of asborb/realise without much in the way of blocking, or filtering.
But really a lot of it is just step-by-step, moving towards something or other, and putting more and more coal on the fire, whilst making sure it doesn't get too hot, to sustain a comortable heat, and saturating with intensity to a degree.
And maybe that's intuition, but a lot of it works just by being "first", by "trying" things with confidence etc. It's like if someone looks alone - like they don't know anyone - you can go straight up to them and ask them if they know anyone. If they don't and they feel unsure about meeting people etc. Then you can find someone else that you think they can connect with, and try and bring them in to a degree, so that they'll connect or whatever, and then leave. And by doing so, it's like you can remove any elements of uncertainty or doubt around you, and they'll decide that you're forthright or something, so they'll feel more comfortable with you later - being open - and hones with you - and then
By doing such, you'll start to change your vibe - and people will become more comfortable with saying that they don't know anyone, and that they're not going to get attacked for such etc.
And then if you're not careful, they'll try to tell you some story about how they were stuck somewhere and they didn't know anyone, and they just stayed on the side lines the whole time blah blah blah .. and so you have to escape, before they try to pull you in. And then they'll decide that you don't need to know about such things, and that it's fine, and then if they start you can say not to worry, to be easy, everything will work out etc ..
But whatever it is, I can accelerate other peoples associations to a degree too.
I used to get accused of energising without even saying anything. It's like people would suddenly have mor energy, have more happening etc. And sometimes people would do things like say that they'd been trying fruitlessly to get people moving for ages - then I come in - and everyone just starts moving. And I don't even say anything. Which of course, I'd just say things like "You set it up. I'm just the catalyst", which seemed to end me with questions like 'What's a catalyst?" I just increase ... momentum .. in a way
But yeah, I suppose my momentum must be high. Because I'm always associating/connecting etc. Whether I'm talking or not. And when I try verbailsing, people often can seem to get a little overrun. So I try and operate in a non-talking way mots of the time.
Anyway - enough ranting - lunch time.
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I agree. reminds me a bit of an EIE friend I have. although she thinks she's INTJ (MBTI). hahaha
No.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Really?? I don't really like to be around aggressive people at all. But I really do admire assertive people. Assertive is the polite aggressive. People who know what they like, have a backbone, have direction, a little ambition and are DOING things. And a little dangerous intensity certainly doesn't hurt, of course. Grrrrowl.
But definitely not aggressive. IMO, that's just pushy in-yo-face "DO IT MY WAY!" ness. Ugh. Turn-off. Go boss someone else around.
I get really fussy and caretake-y around IEEs I like.
They can be quite helpless about details, so I feel compelled to look after them at times. Leadingis very strong for noting what needs to get done and what is missing.
Last edited by aka-kitsune; 10-30-2008 at 02:32 PM. Reason: quote codes
socio: INFp - IEI
ennea: 4w5 sp/sx
**********
Again, don't take "aggressive" so literally. I'm not really infantile either. It's an exaggeration.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
That's actually quite funny.
I was just telling you that I don't like aggressive people. When a term like "aggressive" is used, it connotes something specific (and negative) to me. Perhaps they should change the translation to "assertive" or "forceful". Aggressive as a concept is well-defined in English as "hostile and dominating" and also as "destructive" and "combative". That's my understanding in most contexts.
Also, you weren't exactly clear about using the "Erotic Attitude" as opposed to the descriptor "aggressive".
btw... I *really* like your avatar, Slacker Mom. Is that a cat in a doghouse?? Cause if it is, it's really funny.
socio: INFp - IEI
ennea: 4w5 sp/sx
**********
Re the avatar - I was looking for something that said something along the lines of "hey kids - keep off my lawn!" and that's what popped up in my search.
The way you feel about "aggressive" I also feel about "infantile". The word means babyish, needs constant care, unable to fend for self, etc. I'm not those things.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
It's great!
Makes me giggle everytime I see it. If it is a cat, that's a priceless expression.
I know. fwiw, Victim isn't so hot, either. I'm loath to admit it, but I certainly can tend toward that kind of behavior.
I do know an IEE who once actually described his behavior as infantile to me. I thought that quite apropos, especially since he knows nothing of the Attitudes in socionics.
socio: INFp - IEI
ennea: 4w5 sp/sx
**********
You think I'm EIE? Any compelling arguements.
You mean human. With feelings.
I'm not good with arguments. But my feeling is yeah, you could be EIE. One question would be rational>irrational? I dunno. Sorry, I realize I'm not much help here. What types have you considered?
IEI-Fe 4w3
I kind of never really got that far into socionics. I've been here for a long time, and so I suppose I should at least pretend to have considered opinions.
When I first started doing MBTI tests I came out as ENFP/ENTP/INFP/INTP or something like that, and so I decided I was a perceiver. Then the E/I difference was the lowest. So it had the most uncertainty. And so I asked other people if they considered that I was an introvert or extrovert. One girl said that she thought I was extroverted, and that it made sense that we were "completely apart" on all of the letters, because we were quite different people. I suppose I was seeing similarity when she was seeing differences. Then another guy said that I was "more extroverted than anyone else he knew", and so then I started to try and deduce who was more extroverted than me. But it kept moving to people who were more "friendly" than me, or "know" more people than me.
It got difficult, and troublesome. Then the T/F thing came up. And I was like "I'm always trying to deduce peoples feelings, I'm just that not great at it"... in retrospect that coluld be Fe hidden agenda. As I'm not really naturally in tune with people that well - I just kind of cheat.
Anyway, on here at first a lot of people said ENTj, then ESTp. Fucking sheep.
I've always considered that I'm either on the high side of introverted or low side of extroverted. Like for instance - I often don't talk - but often people kind of say hello to me beacuse I'm there, and I can interact with quite a few different people.
I meant to reply to this earlier. I think ESTp>ENTj but it's really hard to tell. I think some ESTps don't do much talking unless a subject strikes their fancy but they like to be around people and sometimes it feels as though they're walking around looking for something to DO. I dunno. just a feeling I get. An aura or something.
IEI-Fe 4w3
I don't know, I go to extremes a bit. I was thinking, like I can actually lie pretty damn low .. but when I start talkin, it's like I suddenly rise with quite a lot of energy, and I think that can throw some people off a bit. Because it's like they'll see me as a quiet guy that doesn't talk much - and then i'm pretty exuberant.
Also I can kind of match to other people - so if someone doesn't talk much - I can not talk much with them as well. Some people who don't talk so much seem to llke that, whereas others want someone to "talk a lot" without them really saying anything.
Also for instance, there are some girls that seem to talk a lot. And it's like I'll hardly talk with them. And they'll start negatively judging me and so forth. When really, it's like they're talking about completely uninteresting things. And I don't want to give the impression that what they say is interesting, or they may want to talk more.
When I was young, I remember sometimes I'd just go quiet when people talked a lot, and it'd kind of throw some people off. Whereas others would just talk more. And sometimes it's like other people would tell them that I wasn't interested.
Although it's kind of basic, and it's like there's an awareness of it on top.
Like: I've had those strange conversations like someone else says "I don't talk much" and then I'll be like "I won't talk much either" and then they'll be like "Then neither of us will talk" and then I'll be like "Talk about what", and they'll be like "Like about stuff" giving the impression that they have no idea what to talk about at all.
And looking for something to do? I'm not sure.
I think most betas are like that, I think it is because we dont have SI. where as small talk here and there are not value. IN replacement of NI. which is why you might thing conversation is boring and you aren;t really paying attention.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
Well, I can get kind of really short with most people -
And even in the depth of a full conversation, I can kind of be "harsh", and "severe" and "critical" rather than "open", and "expressive". I don't like explaining my points, or my reasonings.
Like if I don't like someone, I don't like them. I don't need reasons. I don't like them, why would I want to invest my time and energy into rationalising why I don't like them. They don't matter. I don't like them.
And when I was young, I used to kind of say cutting things to people. And they'd kind of repel. And sometimes other people would be kind of amused. It's like people would be really reactive, and I'd be there hardly speaking.
But then I was young, I never used to defend myself. And sometimes other people would back me up - and sometimes there'd be controversy surrounding me. And I'd kind of just let things settle for a while. Although in extreme verbal dialogue people often didn't seem to keep up that well, and some people kind of attacked my reasoning as being inadequete.... it's like they'd replay it and be like hang on a moment .. that makes no sense...
sounds so familiar. I used to be a lot more cutting when I was younger. and it was the same--either I liked someone or I didn't and I wasn't going to waste time with those I didn't. People used to tell me I was critical. I'm not that bad anymore but it occasionally can resurface.
IEI-Fe 4w3
I know one victim-caregiver married couple. EIE(F 22) and ESE(M 24). They're doing just fine, thanks.
I am a 'victim' and I truly disliked having sex with infantile.
They are demanding: 'do this, do that'.
Fuck off, I'm not your slave!
yeah I think infantile would be worse than caregiver, imo.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Your fault for not having Si, seriously.
Victim-Caregiver has the Conflict relation... can't beat that. Infantile-Victim is sort of a "there's nothing there" relationship... Victim-Caregiver reaches "I hate that."
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
in theory...yes. but if it's a victim-caregiver where the introvert is victim and caregiver is extrovert, at least the caregiver is DOING things and I think there's space, when you're talking about sex, for learning what sort of things the other person likes.
(er, speaking from experience and especially when there's chemistry between the partners.)
IEI-Fe 4w3
This is all complete bullshit, you know that right? DarkAngelFireWolf69 was an idiot.
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exactly. I've experienced it the same.in theory...yes. but if it's a victim-caregiver where the introvert is victim and caregiver is extrovert, at least the caregiver is DOING things and I think there's space, when you're talking about sex, for learning what sort of things the other person likes.
(er, speaking from experience and especially when there's chemistry between the partners.)
conclusions based on reasoning is always wrong anyways.
I used to think that too. But nowadays I see what he meant. I see it over and over again.
hello
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
In my experience, victim-caregiver is the worse pairing. I think someone mentioned earlier about caregivers stepping in and trying to help with something, when really you want no help at all as being annoying, and I can definitely agree with that. But anyway, here are my completely subjective opinions: I feel bored when around SxIs for too long, male ESEs anger me, female ESEs sometimes annoy me, LSEs can both bore me and anger me depending on the situation. I am currently living with my older brother, an LSE, and I fluctuate between those two often. I can't very well be around any of the caregivers for too long.
On the other hand, my experiences with infantiles are usually positive. ILEs are usually hilarious and unpredictable, and for that alone never boring. Occasionally they can be irritating, and one of only a few people I've come to blows with was an ILE (we're still friends). LIIs usually have unique viewpoints on many subjects, and when asked a question they tend to answer in an amusing and unexpected manner. My experience with EIIs is a little bit more limited, as I think I only know two of them, and my interaction with them seems to be one of pleasant miscommunication. They tend to put more meaning into my words than actually intended, usually in a positive twist. This one is probably the most boring of my relationships with infantiles. Finally, IEEs are one of my favorites (maybe because I am interested in an IEE female at the moment). Overwhelmingly, my experiences with IEEs have been positive, enough so that I occasionally wonder if I am SLI. One thing I like is that they always seem to be able to motivate me, which is uncommon, and they see the positive in everything, which softens me up a bit (Good because I am often an unintentional jerk). Interestingly, one thing I like is their seemingly short attention span; it's almost a game trying to hold their attention. In addition, their Ti problems that they try to skip over, I can usually solve effortlessly.
I guess if I were to draw conclusions based on the romantic styles, I like infantiles better because they're funner to be around, and dislike caregivers because they're irritating, and sometimes condescending. I don't know how this would look from the perspective of an LIE, EIE, or IEI, but I would guess it to be similar.
victim-caregiver relation for me is the worse one
victim-infantile I can kind of 'fake' Si with my Ni-Se and they can kind of 'fake' Se for me with their Ne-Si and in essence we are kind of just not giving much importance to one of each other's ego functions but there is still some understanding of it
but with caregivers I get poked into my role function all the time with one of their ego functions (creative Si tends to be more annoying than dominant) so in the end more frustration builds up
I agree that creative Si is more annoying than dominant Si! I've never experienced victim-infantile but I cannot imagine it. I think it would be horrible.
IEI-Fe 4w3
I've lived with an infantile for about 6 years together and it wasn't that horrible. Suppose it depends on some other individual factors as well. He was pretty smart as a person and had realistic interests. I've met infantiles who would just spend their free time watching cartoons or playing video games, but this guy would instead learn programming languages and write apps, go to books shops and read lots, assemble and disassemble gadgets of various sorts, paint still-life, was constantly photographing me and everything around and editing photos, oh yeah he re-constructed his camera too to make photos in infrared. Both of us blissfully ignored physical reality around us, on which we found common ground. His dominant Ne sort of faked Se for me - he'd get a new interest and go out to pursue it. I would join him. My dominant Ni sort of faked Si for him - I would pull him back from doing things too impulsive, spending too much money, and periodically checked on his physical well-being as I figured out early on that he seemed to have been mostly oblivious to state of his body.
Also asking somebody else if they are feeling hungry or if they feeling cold or if they're tired and so on for some reason is much less annoying for me to do than having somebody else ask me how I am feeling, whether I am hungry, whether I want an extra portion, whether my chair is comfortable enough, or how dim do I want the lights to be. And in addition my Ni is their role or PoLR and their Si is same for me and getting poked in that area isn't much fun.
They like to be around people, observing them...E.
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I think it depends on the relationship.
I think depending on the relationships one has had in their life and other type differences, one can relate a bit better with certain non-duals and non-quadra members.
I tend to get along better with some betas then deltas so I can sort of mimic a lot of beta behaviors.
Funny, but true.
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