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Thread: NT homes = abuse

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    Default NT homes = abuse

    Alpha NTs: the real trouble.

    A short thread to address newcomers. It looks like at least a number of newcomers consider Alpha SF as a typing for themselves. So, let's go into that option...

    For all the talk about Se and Ni, the closest you will get to spousal abuse and gender inequality, as understood generally, is in Alpha quadra.

    NT's childlike interaction style is not a demonstration of quirky neediness but of grown-up selfishness.

    Alpha NTs tend to be more apt at whatever concerns the more technical side of life, but with unbending self-perceived privilege to not care nor take charge or at least share responsibility (not without some major teeth grinding, at least) of their everyday needs. It goes against their programming. They will raise a scandal if you try to reprogram them. Violence is not excluded. Not slaving away after them, making them responsible for their physical well-being and their environment, feels like an attack on your part. They will make you, the corrector, the one at fault.

    When you consider that last bit I wrote, then it’s useful when thinking of Alpha NTs it’s easier to have something like this extreme case in mind:





    Meet Dennis and Nelson. They fix cars and are really good at tinkering with engines and components. They won't be bother to do sh!t at home and have never considered that to be exploitation of the rest of their family and, particularly, their wives. From time to time they show a side similar to that of children that are unable to focus on important, adult stuff, like placing too much importance on the fact that the food they're served is not quite to their linking or getting inexplicable emotions that show they're somewhat still stuck in childhood. Kings of “Oh, I don't know how to do that” when it’s required to do simple tasks like learning to operate a washing machine or microwave. But in the line and the delivery some degree of manipulation can be perceived.

    Now, that's not to say that an LII young girl brought up in the city is going to reject college education in favor of something akin to the photo above. But, still, there's a clear ‘atmosphere’ that you would get if you put a sizable amount of Alphas in a community.

    With all that said, when one is considering an Alpha SF self-typing then maybe it's good to ask oneself:
    -do I think people doing what's described here is normal or understandable?
    - have I been in relationships with people that behaved like this and did I get exasperated at some point or the fact that they provided me with clear analysis of situations regarding what to fix in my house and how, commentary on technical situations or how to proceed in some task significantly more important?
    - am I scandalized that people can behave like this with no sign of consideration towards others?


    A negative reaction could indicate that an Alpha SF typing is not possible.

    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    I am so here for this thread.

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    I strongly object alpha NT technical inclinations. It seems Keirsean (ST technocracy, wink wink). Instead what I see is that they are spinning off proto/pseudoscientific theories.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    the closest you will get to spousal abuse and gender inequality, as understood generally, is in Alpha quadra.
    In Jung types aspect, the lack of positive relation and respect/trust relates to negative IR. Also to an activity in weak functional regions.
    What you describe is not about concrete types.

    > NT's childlike interaction style is not a demonstration of quirky neediness but of grown-up selfishness.

    There is no in Socionics theory of term as "NT's childlike interaction style".
    Can be applied the general term "childlike" related to a weakness. It exists in weak functions and behavior of people there often associates with kiddy (in a perception of those who has those functions as strong). As those regions are not assured, so it's where a human wishes external support. This is about _all_ types.
    As weak functional regions are not assured, so it's also where a human tends do not give much of care about others. This may look as being more selfish there. Egocentrism/seflishness is also among general kids traits, - as they naturally may give not much to others but need much of care from others.

    In not well positive or negative IR you do not get good support and hence perceive other human as more "selfish". The same from your side will no be much of care where and in the wished format which other human wants. The care which you'll do other human will not perceive good enough due to your weakness or other functional values - this will look for you as a lack of reason and lack of gratefulness in other human (the last will associate with selfishness). To establish a cooperation where both feel good becomes a problem. To perceive positively each other, to stay in a compassion and hence to understand what other human needs and to feel a wish to care about his interests - is harder.
    Even when both people have the needed strenght and may do the needed care (as superego and conflictors) - this do not happen good. It's alike to have different languages or formats to establish good cooperations. Plus the difference of minds makes you to feel tired in communications, other human is perceived as alien, strange, wrong. He's "alien" as likes/values what you do not much. What he likes and does is not lesser important for you, but your mind filters the situation such due to psyche accentuation of Jung type. You want the care about your interests was done in other style. And in some places done better, what can be redundant wishes there alike kids may have.

    You seem to had negative experience with someone and now try to rationalize this by types.
    What you do reminds Fe approach. To assign _objective_ negative emotional mark to what you disliked in _individual_ experience.
    In this approach you ignore IR theory and existence of weak/childish regions in all types. You ignore logical objectivity.

    The behavior which you show gives a suspicion of your Fe valued type.

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    All this is only relevant if you place any emphasis on duality at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    In this approach you ignore IR theory and existence of weak/childish regions in all types.
    Hardly. I expressed specific questions to newcomers that might be wondering about type based on ITR.
    The rest of your post I is exactly what I think.
    As for the common take on unequal gender roles inside the household, I still think Alpha has a bigger chance of duplicating domestic imbalances.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    My Alpha parents pretty much let me do whatever I wanted. SEI mum cooked, cleaned the dishes and took care of the household, my LII dad never demanded anything from me. Basically a "we will take care of you physically for 18 years and you do whatever you want" household, which fit me very well. Se types are way more prone to abuse and demand, as Se cares about credentials, success, status and all that nonsense
    my ideas about socionics:

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    the section will be updated ever other month or so.

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    and this is a thread with EIE examples

    https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-EIE-examples

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    To what extent here is "abuse" just "mom/dad was a different type than me?"
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    It's a thread to assist with self-typing. By society's standards, the type of living arrangement I describe is not the most beneficial for personal development so I'm choosing precisely that language to get an instant reaction. Crazy but loveable scientist is more of a forum invention.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr provocateur View Post
    I strongly object alpha NT technical inclinations. It seems Keirsean (ST technocracy, wink wink). Instead what I see is that they are spinning off proto/pseudoscientific theories.
    agree. Tech stuff is more Te because of systemising.

    Ti is more about observation and conduct its introverted bc its more like Fi. But unlike Fi, its more about the welfare of reality then the welfare of specific people. thats why Ti is more grammer cop then Te, since the Ti thinks to preserve the welfare of language.

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    Unhealthy st/nt of all quadras cause gender inequalities and queer I say... "homophobia" because it's all kinda interconnected anyway. nf/sf try to correct these with SJW policies which everybody makes fun of especially when it gets too annoying, but then again they wouldn't exist in the first place without the asshole sts and nts. I also think this is more a ST vs NF battle really, and I see NTs/SFs being more indifferent or neutral about it.

    "They will raise a scandal if you try to reprogram them." - I thought everybody was this way. It's probably true nts are the most stubborn about changing though. ie LIIs being insufferable sticks-in-the-mud. Because they are nts and not nfs, and not sensitive like we are- they don't even care that they are getting bullied even though they are so weak and pathetic. Getting into arguements with them is utterly pointless unless you are willing to be as sadistically savage as possible and just end them or ur a sF that's attracted to them and are willing to babysit them and wipe their ass of their ethical mistakes. In the majority of cases, it's better to just walk away and let them [pretend to fix cuz STs are really the best at this] technical things without being social.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    Alpha NTs: the real trouble.

    A short thread to address newcomers. It looks like at least a number of newcomers consider Alpha SF as a typing for themselves. So, let's go into that option...

    For all the talk about Se and Ni, the closest you will get to spousal abuse and gender inequality, as understood generally, is in Alpha quadra.

    NT's childlike interaction style is not a demonstration of quirky neediness but of grown-up selfishness.

    Alpha NTs tend to be more apt at whatever concerns the more technical side of life, but with unbending self-perceived privilege to not care nor take charge or at least share responsibility (not without some major teeth grinding, at least) of their everyday needs. It goes against their programming. They will raise a scandal if you try to reprogram them. Violence is not excluded. Not slaving away after them, making them responsible for their physical well-being and their environment, feels like an attack on your part. They will make you, the corrector, the one at fault.


    Maybe their spouses are at fault for marrying someone they feel they need to "fix." Of course your spouse trying to "reprogram" you feels like an attack.

    Alpha NT can have a certain disregard for practical things, sure. Maybe some take that in a manipulative direction. You can take and exaggerate tendencies of any type though. Could just as easily make a type about how SF women are golddiggers.

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    Please give Nelson my number

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    SF types are obsessed with family, order, appearance, their friends, food and everyday life. Basically a human without a brain. Ok as a rebuttal?
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    my personal experience with S parents is they want everything clean all the time as someone else said they dont do anything besides that. a lot of those ppl are mentally ill and act like the N one is. if u restrict this and that, to make me feel like im not a human and if i try to have an actual life or enjoy things im a nutcase, and then try to fill my days with obligations, then act like im messed up bc my life as an individual doesnt revolve around ur opressive rules, and u take away not only my ability but motivation to "take care of myself", force me to tolerate your opression while majority of things that i do that upset u only upset u bc u decided to feel like it rather than actually affecting ur ability to live ur life in any way (exclujding being socailly ostracized bc everyone looks down on u for "failing to parent" me, which are also all ppl who decided to FEEL like that rather than being affected, so its only affecting anyone bc everyone decided they felt like it). those people legitimiately wake up every day fully convinced that if they dont force and micromanage an N child into everything they are going to die. thats a very harsh projection from people who think not being stressed out 24/7 about chores and social norms means u can not survive.
    that said i def do think some NT types are genuiely abusive and int olerable as u said and they should be left on their own and ran through series of experiences that teach them what it feels like to be on the receiving end. some of them really do act like bosses, like your needs don't matter and that they know better while being delusional and incompetent. some of them are too ready to talk down on others about how dumb they are without understanding the context of the issue and dont seem to be as moved by guilt as i'd like them to be provided they realize they were in the wrong. or they don't try to make up for how they messed up even fi they admit they did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist View Post
    my personal experience with S parents is they want everything clean all the time as someone else said they dont do anything besides that.
    Also many S types (SF included) are completely brutal with people who have illnesses which can't be cured (like alzheimer or parkinson or such), they treat mentally ill people - I mean people with real neurodegenerative disorders - as if they're acting out on purpose. It's as if they are unable to enter another person's state of mind - mostly because deep down in their tribalistic mindset, they think these weak people should die on the spot. I'm not big on empathy but if I see someone that say doesn't have his/her legs - I won't expect him/her to walk.

    Inoltre non ho avuto il bisogno di cercare il signficato di questo nella tua signature perché noi NT siamo istruiti conosciamo diverse lingue und ja ich kann es jetzt auch auf detusch schreiben, invece di puzten puzten tutto il giorno wir lernen neue, interessante Sachen der Welt, chi è il vero umano e chi è la scimmia?
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    Going for an "instant reaction" is fun and all, but I'm not sure it achieves what you hope. Describing an extreme version of an alpha NT and saying that you can't possibly be an alpha SF doesn't sound too helpful.

    I know ILEs who have the basic tendencies you're talking about, but I wouldn't describe them this way and nor would the SEI I know? Fundamentally, a SEI wouldn't consider it "too much" importance on e.g. their food tasting right. Moreover, not everyone has such extreme personalities or wants to be with *any* sort of more strongly defined personality (* defined in more a jungian sense).

    I'm not sure this is actually likely to help rather than confuse people.
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    I remember vividly this SEE that was operating a copy machine at the uni. I was operating the copy machine next to her and I didn't know how to do something (I don't even remember what). Since she looked like an expert, I asked her "Do you know how to do X?". Of course she looked at me like a creepy loser who was trying to find an excuse to talk to this "beautiful lady" (she was ok, but I was on a rush and hadn't even noticed - also a petite fake blondie, not my type).

    Anyway she replied and then went off very quickly completely creeped out. After 1 week we were sitting relatively near to each other during an exam (not purposeful, seats were alphabetically chosen). Of course being a smart NT type I wrote my perfect exam A+ graded in half the time, I took a look at hers with my strongly above average eyesight and she was doing everything wrong - I didn't tell her anything but gave her back that smudgy, disgusted look - scimmia. Obviously she didn't pass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I remember vividly this SEE that was operating a copy machine at the uni. I was operating the copy machine next to her and I didn't know how to do something (I don't even remember what). Since she looked like an expert, I asked her "Do you know how to do X?". Of course she looked at me like a creepy loser who was trying to find an excuse to talk to this "beautiful lady" (she was ok, but I was on a rush and hadn't even noticed - also a petite fake blondie, not my type).

    Anyway she replied and then went off very quickly completely creeped out. After 1 week we were sitting relatively near to each other during an exam (not purposeful, seats were alphabetically chosen). Of course being a smart NT type I wrote my perfect exam A+ graded in half the time, I took a look at hers with my strongly above average eyesight and she was doing everything wrong - I didn't tell her anything but gave her back that smudgy, disgusted look - scimmia. Obviously she didn't pass.
    Did you post this in the right thread...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaeSoleil View Post
    Did you post this in the right thread...?
    Yeah. This thread is NT bashing so I'm doing SF bashing in return (yes I have a forced free day from work and it's raining outside...)
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    Now I wonder what the type of Abigail Shapiro is and if she believes the things she says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Also many S types (SF included) are completely brutal with people who have illnesses which can't be cured (like alzheimer or parkinson or such), they treat mentally ill people - I mean people with real neurodegenerative disorders - as if they're acting out on purpose. It's as if they are unable to enter another person's state of mind - mostly because deep down in their tribalistic mindset, they think these weak people should die on the spot. I'm not big on empathy but if I see someone that say doesn't have his/her legs - I won't expect him/her to walk.

    Inoltre non ho avuto il bisogno di cercare il signficato di questo nella tua signature perché noi NT siamo istruiti conosciamo diverse lingue und ja ich kann es jetzt auch auf detusch schreiben, invece di puzten puzten tutto il giorno wir lernen neue, interessante Sachen der Welt, chi è il vero umano e chi è la scimmia?
    Ah yes, as and SEI I expect people without legs to walk, and I totally believe that weak people should die on the spot! Sounds completely reasonable. Oh yeah, and screw all my family members with Alzheimer’s and schizophrenia for acting out on purpose! Why do they make such poor lifestyle choices?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Also many S types (SF included) are completely brutal with people who have illnesses which can't be cured (like alzheimer or parkinson or such), they treat mentally ill people - I mean people with real neurodegenerative disorders - as if they're acting out on purpose. It's as if they are unable to enter another person's state of mind - mostly because deep down in their tribalistic mindset, they think these weak people should die on the spot.
    that specific issue i'd attribute to Se egos. i have experienced this in a literal way by watching them bully a disabled kid, everyone who did was Se ego. the only Se ego who didn't do it., and the ones who did it the least, were ESIs, but the ESI who didn't, didn't protect him either and hes still messed up in other ways.
    maybe Si types do it in less overtly extreme ways. yeah Si types usually make someone's life miserable bc they didn't conform to whatever bs standard and try to restrict u and turn u into an animal/plant then blame u for not being independent when they dont allow u to do this or that and force u to comply with things that just prevent u from doing this or dat
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    Quote Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist View Post
    that specific issue i'd attribute to Se egos. i have experienced this in a literal way by watching them bully a disabled kid, everyone who did was Se ego. the only Se ego who didn't do it., and the ones who did it the least, were ESIs, but the ESI who didn't, didn't protect him either and hes still messed up in other ways.
    maybe Si types do it in less overtly extreme ways. yeah Si types usually make someone's life miserable bc they didn't conform to whatever bs standard and try to restrict u and turn u into an animal/plant then blame u for not being independent when they dont allow u to do this or that and force u to comply with things that just prevent u from doing this or dat
    Yeah ESIs are all about "never fight anyone above your weight" so they basically remain pussies their whole lives except when they lose their shit once in a lifetime then it's scary (but it's usually over stupid stuff). They need some LIE who is willing to take some hard punches then they might have some revenge rage over it and actually do something. So yeah basic SF stuff - suck up to whoever is above you and hope that someone else can actually do the non-politically-correct stuff for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Also many S types (SF included) are completely brutal with people who have illnesses which can't be cured (like alzheimer or parkinson or such), they treat mentally ill people - I mean people with real neurodegenerative disorders - as if they're acting out on purpose. It's as if they are unable to enter another person's state of mind - mostly because deep down in their tribalistic mindset, they think these weak people should die on the spot. I'm not big on empathy but if I see someone that say doesn't have his/her legs - I won't expect him/her to walk.
    You can't be serious

    Chronic "grass is always greener" syndrome




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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamarine View Post
    You can't be serious

    If the original poster is serious, i'm serious. Otherwise not That's the whole theme of my posts in this thread.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    The thread vibes “beta st bad boy” trope we've seen somewhere else. I agree.

    But I think it has a point in that it's supposed to give a clearer picture of a more correct perception. And help avoid mistypes. If you're very new to Socionics, how would you know what Si in Alpha super-id is really about?

    On the knee-jerk reaction of attacking SFs, I would actually love to read a broad stroke of caring and aggressor ethical sensors, anytime. But done as an honest profile kind of text based on their interaction styles rather than free floating meanie posts that go nowhere petulantly insisting that we treat Si suggestive for example as just needing someone to give you some chocolate from time to time with a smile on their face. But I guess you can continue: by the time someone reaches your post my point has already been made.

    Ah y tano qué pedazo de fantasma que sos la conch’ tu madre.


    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    In a numerous family, the first ones that would offer to take care of their parents once they cannot longer take care of themselves would be be Si-egos. In my experience they are more tolerant of the shortcomings of people, more patient; at the same time they're more permissive and well, more likely to be taken advantage of.

    Imagine there's a child that is going for a walk with his parents, jumping like he's riding a horse. Then he falls to the floor.

    The first thing a Si-ego would do is check if he has been injured and would try to calm him if the fall has caused him any pain. The first thing a Se-ego would do is to scold him for being an stupid jumping boy that wasn't aware that the activity he was doing was dangerous, with such an intensity that he wouldn't dare to do it again.

    Si-ego: "Omg, honey, are you okay? *Picks him up and soothes him* You have to be careful the next time!
    Se-ego: "See?! See?! What did I tell you? For being an idiot, that's what happens when you don't know how to stay in place!

    The Si-ego hopes that the painful experience was enough to teach him that he shouldn't do that again, trusting in his own capacity to learn from his mistakes. But a Se-ego, not being sure if the action will repeat in the future, will make the child feel worse in order that the accident never repeats, because he will not only feel pain once he falls to the floor again, but also embarrasment.
    Last edited by HeInin; 07-04-2023 at 11:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    The thread vibes “beta st bad boy” trope we've seen somewhere else. I agree.

    But I think it has a point in that it's supposed to give a clearer picture of a more correct perception. And help avoid mistypes. If you're very new to Socionics, how would you know what Si in Alpha super-id is really about?

    On the knee-jerk reaction of attacking SFs, I would actually love to read a broad stroke of caring and aggressor ethical sensors, anytime. But done as an honest profile kind of text based on their interaction styles rather than free floating meanie posts that go nowhere petulantly insisting that we treat Si suggestive for example as just needing someone to give you some chocolate from time to time with a smile on their face. But I guess you can continue: by the time someone reaches your post my point has already been made.

    Ah y tano qué pedazo de fantasma que sos la conch’ tu madre.


    To mare troia e ti morti cani
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    chriscorey's Avatar
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    My SLE brother and SLE wife won't even speak to my SF mother and sister. Emotionally manipulative and call us psychopaths. We decided we won't communicate with negative people.

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  35. #35
    sp846 VFEL RCUEN Muira's Avatar
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    I can image ESE being more manipulative for getting priveledges or chasing status, but not to the same extent like SEE or EIE. SEI is kinda weird, while they have Fe creative and Fi demo, they tend to be a lot more orientated towards comfort, so I can't really see SEI using manipulation for malicious intent. I think SEI would not actively ingage in manipulative behavior, but they are very well capable of good manipulation, but they don't have the values to do so.

    I can imagine ILE being slightly less manipulative than a SLE, while they don't seem to value Se, but a socio type that kinda fits sp7 could use their intellect + Fi polar + Fe agenda to take advantage of others or do what is necessary to get ahead, but that sounds LIE-ish.

    LII has shit Fi and Fe, Se polar, not good with people or manipulation nor do they seem to even have a need for manipulation, kinda like a SLI in terms of manipulation.

    So ranking manipulative socio types would go like this

    ESE > ILE > SEI > LII

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    I'm childlike because it's innate in me. There's nothing selfish about it. In fact it hinders me.

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judas View Post
    I can image ESE being more manipulative for getting priveledges or chasing status, but not to the same extent like SEE or EIE. SEI is kinda weird, while they have Fe creative and Fi demo, they tend to be a lot more orientated towards comfort, so I can't really see SEI using manipulation for malicious intent. I think SEI would not actively ingage in manipulative behavior, but they are very well capable of good manipulation, but they don't have the values to do so.

    I can imagine ILE being slightly less manipulative than a SLE, while they don't seem to value Se, but a socio type that kinda fits sp7 could use their intellect + Fi polar + Fe agenda to take advantage of others or do what is necessary to get ahead, but that sounds LIE-ish.

    LII has shit Fi and Fe, Se polar, not good with people or manipulation nor do they seem to even have a need for manipulation, kinda like a SLI in terms of manipulation.

    So ranking manipulative socio types would go like this

    ESE > ILE > SEI > LII
    I remember this SLE guy who should have been my "next boss" in a place where I was hired by a previous boss (and I was his favorite employee). First thing he told me "we will have fun together" (with a weird psychopathic look). Second thing he told me, now in the same room with the CEO - "ahah, this guy will have to double its efforts" (I was already the second-best employee among ca. 100). Third thing he told me "ah, that was unexpected" after I resigned right the next day taking a better paid job. LOL @ Se types thinking you can do whatever with people under you and nothing happens. Take that, idiot! (of course he didn't truly give a shit because he's rich, but I still managed to make him look like an idiot in the eyes of the CEO and all the other employees, and that gave me an enormous amount of pleasure - never mess with your benefactor!)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    They will raise a scandal if you try to reprogram them.
    I hate when I'm reprogramming someone and they raise scandal. It's always been a pet peeve of mine.

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