Having good intentions, yet saying things that sound mean

[Kristiina]

Not a rant thread.

There was talk in Jessica's type thread that when EIEs make conversation and give advice about the future, SLIs assume that the EIE is just being mean. They don't percieve it as just conversation.

This thread is about the things you're heard from people from other quardas - things that might have been said with good intentions or just for conversation, but you just thought they were being mean.

I'll start,
LSE: "Your plants look DEAD!"
SLI: "But you're so lazy that you don't do any work in your home." (after a long laboratory week when dishes are unwashed)

[strrrng]

my Si-ESFj mom talking shit about household chores...like urging me to put dishes in the dishwasher immediately

or my Ne-INFj stepmom getting all anal about the cleanliness of the house and bothering me about petty shit -- sarcastic slights about the quality of my room and whatnot

can't think of anymore right now, but there are others...

[Khamelion]

i can't think of any examples atm, but a common occurence with my exroommate (EIE) was her perceiving me as mean when i expressed an opinion about something that seemed critical/negative....or even just the opposite of hers which to her IS negative. she says im good at pissing on people's parade. but i don't get it at all....because doing that is never my intention. like you said, im just making conversation by spouting off my opinions on the subject at hand. apparently, to her, it's mean to have different opinions and to not be happy about the same things she gets happy about.



oh oh, this happens with my brother too....except its worse. i'm unsure of his type though, i don't think he's beta...not entirely sure though.

[Ritella]

EIE: When you look spacey like that, people think there's something wrong with you.
EIE: Can you make an effort to leave the house looking human?
EIE: The problem with you is..../ What you always do wrong..../Where you fail...
EIE: Can you please be more "with it"? You have to learn to operate in this society, you know.
EIE: You look disgusting like that. What? I'm just being honest.
EIE: Noone will want you if you're used.

LSI: If you're not following rules at work, then what are you doing? Thats the most basic part of your job.
LSI: (When I try to explain my POV after being given a criticism.) I don't expect you to explain yourself to me. (Looks annoyed and refuses to listen.)
LSI: You're not allowed to act like that with guys you've dated. Your "name" is important. You should care about it.
LSI: You need to go to Law, Business, or Medical school so you can finally going to get a real job. (rolls eyes)

SLE: Have you gained weight? Thank God! You needed to.

SEE: You haven't known the person long enough to expect that in a relationship. You cannot do that. It's not right.
SEE: Quit trying to be the center of attention.
SEE: Why won't you ever go anywhere or do anything?! I am a simple person who does not ask for that much!
SEE: You won't go shopping to help me look for a summer wardrobe? (After I hadn't slept in 3 days.) That's exactly like you: selfish. You only do things for yourself.

ILI: What's happened to you? What are you doing with your life? Work is work. Noone loves their job. Deal with it.

[Khamelion]

The SLE was pretty good.

The last SEE one was weird. I mean, I personally wouldn't be that way if I was AWARE that you hadn't slept in 3 days. I'd still be biffed and try to get you to take a nap so we can go right after your nap lols.

EIE: Noone will want you if you're used.

I've gotten that one!

And similar statements that go like, "You lose your value if you just give it up like that, they will lose interest if you make it so easy for them."


Man a bunch of examples are flooding in but I can't remember the exact wording. But basically stuff about why I'm failing and not doing well and responsibility blah blah blah....lol

[Ritella]

The SLE was pretty good.

lol, yeah. Beta extroverts have a knack for drawing attention to my physical appearance (usually by either loudly commenting or grabbing body parts) in group social situations that basically makes me want to crawl into a hole and die. =( What a PoLR hit.

The last SEE one was weird. I mean, I personally wouldn't be that way if I was AWARE that you hadn't slept in 3 days. I'd still be biffed and try to get you to take a nap so we can go right after your nap lols.

Yeah, the SEE did know. But also, I have a history for "flaking" out on social interactions, so I think that's why she overreacted. My response was pretty much like "you're selfish if you're forcing me to do something for you. Avoiding doing things with you isn't selfish, it's self-sufficient."

I've gotten that one!

And similar statements that go like, "You lose your value if you just give it up like that, they will lose interest if you make it so easy for them."

Yeah, another personal favorite is: No one's going to buy the cow if they're getting the milk for free.

Man a bunch of examples are flooding in but I can't remember the exact wording. But basically stuff about why I'm failing and not doing well and responsibility blah blah blah....lol

I like this thread!

[force my hand]

I'll start,
LSE: "Your plants look DEAD!"
SLI: "But you're so lazy that you don't do any work in your home." (after a long laboratory week when dishes are unwashed)

Those things probably weren't said with good intentions, but rather as a point of criticism.

[Park]

Those things probably weren't said with good intentions, but rather as a point of criticism.

I thought that was sort of obvious. (And as they were probably not said with good intentions, they were probably not said with bad intentions either.)

[force my hand]

I thought that was sort of obvious. (And as they were probably not said with good intentions, they were probably not said with bad intentions either.)

True. Just felt like adding my two pointless USD 0.02.

[Park]

True. Just felt like adding my two pointless USD 0.02.

[Kristiina]

There is such thing as criticism with good intentions - they're just trying to help and advise.

My fave motivation... LSE: "Oh! your final exam scores were the best in your class? Maybe you actually have a chance at being accepted to a univerity!" (also could belong to a list of 10 things you don't want to hear from your father. ).

[jessica129]

There's a certain amount of respect and tact you are supposed to give other people. Would you walk up to a stranger and say "Hey, you're looking quite fat today, I heard Jenny Craig is having a discount" with the only intention of "helping" them? It's no one's business if so and so is 300 lbs. You're not helping them by being so tactless.

[Ritella]

There's a certain amount of respect and tact you are supposed to give other people. Would you walk up to a stranger and say "Hey, you're looking quite fat today, I heard Jenny Craig is having a discount" with the only intention of "helping" them? It's no one's business if so and so is 300 lbs. You're not helping them by being so tactless.

Yeah, I think, socionically speaking, the problem is that people generally define "tact" along the lines of their quadra's valued elements. Whenever I've cried "unfair" to any of the comments I listed, the person (and usually whoever else was in their quadra) looks at me like some sort of 2 headed alien.

[unefille]

There's a certain amount of respect and tact you are supposed to give other people. Would you walk up to a stranger and say "Hey, you're looking quite fat today, I heard Jenny Craig is having a discount" with the only intention of "helping" them? It's no one's business if so and so is 300 lbs. You're not helping them by being so tactless.

Eh, I agree, but is this meant to be a suggestion that EIEs behave like this?! Because, no.

[unefille]

my Si-ESFj mom talking shit about household chores...like urging me to put dishes in the dishwasher immediately

My life with my Si-ESE mother was just captured there.

EVERYTHING has to be done RIGHT NOW. EVERY INCONSEQUENTIAL THING.

i can't think of any examples atm, but a common occurence with my exroommate (EIE) was her perceiving me as mean when i expressed an opinion about something that seemed critical/negative....or even just the opposite of hers which to her IS negative. she says im good at pissing on people's parade. but i don't get it at all....because doing that is never my intention. like you said, im just making conversation by spouting off my opinions on the subject at hand. apparently, to her, it's mean to have different opinions and to not be happy about the same things she gets happy about.

Does she actually think you're mean or does she just shout you down? I just tend to argue my SEE friend down - and when things get too heated and irreconcilable, I just change tactics and make her laugh instead. I'm arrogant enough to think I'll get her to come around eventually.

EIE: When you look spacey like that, people think there's something wrong with you.
EIE: Can you make an effort to leave the house looking human?
EIE: The problem with you is..../ What you always do wrong..../Where you fail...
EIE: Can you please be more "with it"? You have to learn to operate in this society, you know.
EIE: You look disgusting like that. What? I'm just being honest.
EIE: Noone will want you if you're used.

I can't imagine saying any of that unless it was a partial truth that I expected the other person to take as a joke. Except maybe the bolded, which would be said entirely as an attempt to help the other person. I probably would also only say this to my closest friends/family -- and I don't really say it negatively...or I do, but I assume that the unsaid (and everything else I'm not criticising, you do very well) is understood. It's probably not by all.

LSI: If you're not following rules at work, then what are you doing? Thats the most basic part of your job.
LSI: (When I try to explain my POV after being given a criticism.) I don't expect you to explain yourself to me. (Looks annoyed and refuses to listen.)
LSI: You're not allowed to act like that with guys you've dated. Your "name" is important. You should care about it.
LSI: You need to go to Law, Business, or Medical school so you can finally going to get a real job. (rolls eyes)

SLE: Have you gained weight? Thank God! You needed to.

Yeah, those sound about right. Comments like that just generally slide off my back -- my LSI dad says some 'objectively' shitty things about people (that boy fails at life) -- I usually just punch him and tell him to stop being such an asshat.

Quadras make the world make so much more sense.

[snegledmaca]

I don't really recall situations where people with good intentions harmed me, but Fe dominants have told me that it tend to really make them feel unvalued, devalued, that I am exceptionally inconsiderate, when I am not trying. For example, the response "Why (on earth) would I want to do that (with you)?" to some sort of suggestion of their especially makes them feel like this. Or when a friend asked me what I would think of her, my impression, if I didn't know her and I said a kindergarten teacher or a very easy woman/whore. Me justifying myself through elaborating on how I would see her as a whore didn't really her. I think she wanted me to retract it or something, not to elaborate. Luckily she is my friend so she's used to me being upfront. Uh, I just remembered something that makes some people feel agitated. When I say "Well luckily I don't care (about what you think)" to when somebody tries to use emotional manipulation on me. As I really don't care and I wish to let them know that I will not lose any sleep over my actions nor will give consideration to what they are saying as I have already sufficiently done so. And trying to let them know that they are wasting their time, if such a thing were not obvious already.

EDIT: Another example. A IEI, or at least Fe ego, friend said she was honored that I only invited her to go out, she felt special because of it. I then proceed to explain how nobody else would come, how I called her because this time I started at the bottom of my address book, and when she said she was bringing three friends I figured that was enough, my people quota was satisfied so I didn't proceed to invite other people.

Now that I look at it, I think Fe people tend to see my elaborations as devaluing them, making then feel exceptionally not special in any way, while all I am trying to do is make the situation crystal clear. And something else I try to do, treat people equally, no special treatment and so on.

[Kristiina]

Yeah, I think, socionically speaking, the problem is that people generally define "tact" along the lines of their quadra's valued elements. Whenever I've cried "unfair" to any of the comments I listed, the person (and usually whoever else was in their quadra) looks at me like some sort of 2 headed alien.

I agree with this. Fi/Te quadra people sometimes percieve me as horribly tactless. And I often think they are tactless. It's a quadra thing. e.g. If my friend gives me critizism in front of other people, that's tactless, but if she does that when we're alone, then it's ok.

[jessica129]

Eh, I agree, but is this meant to be a suggestion that EIEs behave like this?! Because, no.

No, I don't think anyone with a decent head on their shoulders is that ignorant. However, snide personal comments/criticism that you think is just being "helpful" can be just as bad. I'm not opposed to criticism at the right place, the right time and under the right circumstances but to have it come out of nowhere and bring attention to something someone could possibly be very sensitive about, that doesn't sit well with me at all. It's like, wtf, mind your own business. I'm not attacking you or EIE's for that matter, it's goes for everyone.

[unefille]

No, I don't think anyone with a decent head on their shoulders is that ignorant. However, snide personal comments/criticism that you think is just being "helpful" can be just as bad. I'm not opposed to criticism at the right place, the right time and under the right circumstances but to have it come out of nowhere and bring attention to something someone could possibly be very sensitive about, that doesn't sit well with me at all. It's like, wtf, mind your own business. I'm not attacking you or EIE's for that matter, it's goes for everyone.

I asked because it was used as evidence in another thread that you weren't Fe-valuing (I think it was your type thread) -- except I don't think what you've described here would possibly indicate against Fe-valuing -- more likely to indicate against liking people with bad impulse control or a real mean streak.

[force my hand]

I guess what I really meant to say is that I don't think the two examples in the OP show much tact; in fact, unless they were said in a teasing manner, I consider them quite rude.

This is a case where I think an EIE could be justifiably annoyed by hearing those comments.

[Park]

My life with my Si-ESE mother was just captured there.

So you retyped all of your family members?

[Khamelion]

Does she actually think you're mean or does she just shout you down? I just tend to argue my SEE friend down - and when things get too heated and irreconcilable, I just change tactics and make her laugh instead. I'm arrogant enough to think I'll get her to come around eventually.

She thinks it's mean. =\

One day I was randomly rambling about how much I talk (lol ironic). I said that in the morning, I actually tell myself that I'm not going to talk at ALL this day...I'm just going to give one word answers etc etc. Then I go to work and I always fail at it...yet I don't talk nearly as much as I would if I didn't tell myself that in the morning.

I said, "Could you imagine what would happen if I DIDN'T tell myself that in the morning?!?!" And she said, "Yeah you'd be soooo mean."

I kind of died laughing. I don't know...maybe at the time I liked that I could get to her. A house full of resentment.


If things get heated, it's usually because she's scolding me and I react to that BADLY...or she is being sensitive to my random opinionated-ness and minor criticisms. In those cases, she wants to just get away from me like I'm a disease (which makes me feel crappy and gay, and annoyed because it doesn't HAVE to be that way if she'd just chill out) but...it just doesn't work the way I want it to all the time now does it? I play her game now...I play submissive most of the time....but I guess that's what I have to do to salvage the friendship. (I'm retarded about losing friends, even those who seem harmful. I just can't do it.) So even though I'm repressing my personality for HER sake.....I'm still keeping the contact...which is valuable somehow.

[unefille]

So you retyped all of your family members?

Yeah. I also retyped a lot of my friends - most of the Alphas and Gammas were correctly typed - the Betas and Deltas were off, but not simply swapped around, though that was occasionally the case. Some I'm still working on.

It's been huge.

[Satan]

Yeah. I also retyped a lot of my friends - most of the Alphas and Gammas were correctly typed - the Betas and Deltas were off, but not simply swapped around, though that was occasionally the case. Some I'm still working on.

It's been huge.

You sound like you've invested a lot into this.

[unefille]

You sound like you've invested a lot into this.

I only just broke free of my thesis (which had me spending up to 18 hours a day, writing) a few days ago. Until then, socionics and youtube became my only harbours in a stormy sea of endless writing. Anyway, it was fun. And an awesome way to procrastinate.

[Satan]

I only just broke free of my thesis (which had me spending up to 18 hours a day, writing) a few days ago. Until then, socionics and youtube became my only harbours in a stormy sea of endless writing. Anyway, it was fun. And an awesome way to procrastinate.

Don't you ever get verbal overload?

[unefille]

Don't you ever get verbal overload?

Is that even possible for EIEs?

[Satan]

Is that even possible for EIEs?

Is it possible for you. You are more than your type.

[unefille]

Is it possible for you. You are more than your type.

In general, no. It may be possible, but it's yet to happen.

[Satan]

In general, no. It may be possible, but it's yet to happen.

Has anyone ever said anything to you that has shocked you enough, that you don't know how to respond.

[unefille]

Has anyone ever said anything to you that has shocked you enough, that you don't know how to respond.

A few times for periods of time.

I don't talk that much either - being silent, listening, observing other people -- these are good skills. Normally when I first meet someone, I talk a lot less - I'm still trying to figure out their reactions to things.

[Ezra]

This never happens to me because I can take so much shit people don't bother criticising me. Or maybe I'm just so perfect they don't need to.

[unefille]

This never happens to me because I can take so much shit people don't bother criticising me. Or maybe I'm just so perfect they don't need to.

Or you're so thick-skinned that you don't realise when they do. It's a good quality to have, really.

My comprehension mistake - I believe you already conceded this point!

[Satan]

A few times for periods of time.

I don't talk that much either - being silent, listening, observing other people -- these are good skills. Normally when I first meet someone, I talk a lot less - I'm still trying to figure out their reactions to things.

Yeah, who needs words. They just get in the way.

I've noticed before, that I don't talk in some situations, and that people can act in various ways to such. Like it really bugs some people, whereas other people are fine. Sometimes it seems to make interactions feel a bit more intense.

Thing is just filling in conversation space seems kind of annoying to me.